BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:03 AM

I've always been pro-Israel. I condemn people who call for Israel to be wiped off the map. Whatever our take on the history, we are, as they say, where we are, and it behoves us to try to promote the wellbeing and security of the eight million people, all of them, Jews and non-Jews, who live there, by now almost all of them BORN there, lest we forget. No-one chooses where to get born. I believe that arguing against settlements, against an apartheid wall, against constant bellicose incursions into neighbouring territories and against the blatant discrimination against minorities, that I am condemning the regime but supporting the ordinary Israeli citizens, because I'm arguing for solutions, which may well involve compromises, that will eventually increase that wellbeing and security. When I talk about pro-Israel lobbies, I'm talking about organisations who actively support or promote the policies of the regime in Israel. I am not talking about Jews. There are plenty of non-Jews in pro-Israel lobby groups. They will tell you that they are supporting the Israeli people, but what they are actually doing is arguing for the perpetuation of hostilities between Israel and its neighbours by supporting the injustices that take place in the country. AIPAC in particular, which hovers like a hawk over US politicians, makes sure that there will be no meaningful peace talks because they do not recognise any need for compromises. And why would they, when the US provides three billion dollars' worth of military aid per annum with absolutely no conditions attached. All that aid for a country of eight million. Feeling secure must be long way off for most Israelis. One day they'll look at their own regime and see why.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

"Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli."

That is an ambiguous sentence. A)On the one hand it could be that he is accused of saying that any Jewish organisation, by virtue of being Jewish must automatically be "pro-Israel". B)On the other hand it could be he is accused of saying that there are Jewish organisation that pro-Israel.

A) could indeed fairly be described as tending towards antisemitism, on certain definitions of what "pro-Israel" means - though it is a claim that has often been made by Israeli voices.

B) is self evidently true, and is not an antisemitic thing to say.

There is also the question of what "pro Israel" means. Criticism of Israel is in no way incomptable with being essentially supportive of the people of Israel, including criticisms which might challenge the very legitimacy of the confessional State of Israel.

Once again, it is not relevant in this context to argue whether the criticisms of whatever sort are justified, or what are the merits of various possible options. The point is, none of these differences about Israel or about who may or may not support what options are in any way relevant to the charge of antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

"By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people"
The word "regime" gives a clue - read what I write - I've used it 15 times on this thread.
Specific enough for me.
Still no description of the "antisemitism" and still no explanation of the 'Jewish pact of silence"
If it quacks, it's probably a duck, if someone talks about Jewish plots, they are probably antisemites, as are those who support him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:31 AM

Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli.

By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people? Pro-Israeli Government? You don't seem to be very specific.

Worked out how to dig a mass grave with a bulldozer yet? And do you still think that a "Fascist State" is one that puts the requirements of the people before the requirements of the state?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:49 AM

You are both lying and trolling now, Keith. Joining in with your silly games is beneath my dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:11 AM

Jim,
"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership."
Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so

Then how did the leadership know about it Jim?
See T's post.

Kevin,
criticising people or organisatiins for supporting Israel may be so described, in the where these are Jewish. At any rate that seems to be the basis for many of the accusations we have heard in the case of the Labour Party.

No it is not. Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

"Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous."
By th way Robo - the offr I made to Bobad, which he has not taken up, is extended to you or anybody sharing your views.
If you can produce a shred of evidence of my attacking The Jewish People I am happy to make a generous donation to a charity of your choice.
I'm happy to bet that Keith would not care to make that offer, given his Labour Party 'Jewish pact of silence'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:04 AM

Steve,
I have not accused anyone of conspiring to do anything. You are trolling.

You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party, and were also influencing governments.
The would hardly achieve that by working individually and alone.
They would have to conspire.
I described your position accurately. No trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 04:06 AM

So - there you go.
Keith has invented a scenario describing a plot by the Jewish members of the Labour Party having claimed the Party of having a serious problem of Antisemitism, then refusing to make that Antisemitism public because of their loyalty to that party.
He has not produced a shred of evidence of that plot, nor will he - it doesn't exist.
The Jewish people I knew - some of them Labour Party members, would never have put their name to such a cover up - I don't believe any self-respecting Jew would.
Keith has made this up to cover up the fact that he is unable to describe the Antisemitism that he claims infects Labour.
Nothing daunted - his two 'defenders of the Jewish People' buddies have stood valiantly by his antisemitic smear of the Jewish Labour members - why wouldn't they?
Their interest is not in the welfare of The Jewish People - it is in supporting the extremist, right-wing Israeli regime.   
THESE THREE HEROES HAVE MADE THEIR CASE
This whole episode given us a perfect answer to the question asked by title of this thread.
Antisemitism is the denigration of and discrimination of the Jews as a people - not of the Israelis - THE JEWS.
Of course antisemitism exists in the Labour party - there is hardly an institution or community n the world where it doesn't exist.
Far from it being a problem in the Labour Party, it is less likely to be one in a party which was created by humanitarian and socially conscious people, many of who were Jews fleeing from the pogroms of the 19th century - a party which is dedicated to anti-racism and anti sectarianism.
The 'Antisemitism' that Labour may be guilty of is the type that has been re-invented by the Israeli regime to protect itself from the consequences of the crimes it has committed against the Palestinian people - THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
What we do know about this whole affair is that the bulk of the accusers are connected with the at least $26m propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott – that is what this "antisemitim" accusation is about.
Sure – some of the less scrupulous right were happy to join in the kicking match to oppose Corbyn, but all the evidence points to the Anti BDS campaign.
Antisemitism is on the rise again – hardly surprising when the Israeli regime has chosen to hide behind the Jewish People to justify its Human Rights abuses and war crimes – some opponents of that regime are bound to pick up on that cowardly defence and blame the Jews for what the Israeli administration is doing.
The losers in all of this have been both the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed and the Jewish people who have been targetted by being implicated that cleansing by the ISRAELI FASCISTS
And we have three keen supporters of that targetting campaign.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

Jim Carroll - 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership." {Keith A of Hertford}

Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so - you certainly have not provided any proof of their having done this - but please feel free to prove you have."

Labour MP John Mann and Alex Chambers, the co-chairman of Oxford University Labour Club certainly did and that resulted in Baroness Royall's Inquiry.

"Even if this were the case, there was nothing to stop them from going to the press or the pro-Israeli organisations some of them are part of."

The story was covered by the media and the Oxford University Jewish Society made comment on the subject {Note that Jim "Jewish Society" not the Oxford University pro-Israeli Society}

Care to tell us all how going to anyone other than Labour Party would get their concerns acted upon?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:53 AM

"The wicked flee when none pursue."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:41 PM

"The oppressed know one another" was a comment from an old Irish friend of my mother.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:35 PM

Right on Robo, there's not enough of us calling out the Jew haters for what they are - too many pussies on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:34 PM

Sounds nothing like Trump, Robo, who you will note, if you can read, has himself made anti-semitic remarks.

Apparently you've fallen for the BooSpew hook, line & sinker.

Suggest you re-read McGraths posts from the beginning -this time for comprehension -& try to think before you spew.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:14 PM

Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous.
Specially for those beating their chests that No No They are NOT anti-semitic. Sounds like Donald Trump saying "No one has greater respect for women than me!"
Those who are persecuted are well aware of it and of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:48 PM

Yup- stay tuned for more of the same old BooSpew.

Predictable, Boring and Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

and no-one here has accused anyone else of conspiracy.

Ah, ha ha.....it just gets more and more surreal folks.........stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

There are no "folks" worth their salt listening to you, and no-one here has accused anyone else of conspiracy. I know that you WANT us to accuse Jews of conspiring against this, that or the other, but none of us do, so please accept my apologies for frustrating you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:34 PM

Totally being entertained by the feigned righteous indignation by the cabal who claim that the charge of anti-Semitism against the Labour party is a Jewish conspiracy. Make mention of the fact and they all go apoplectic. You couldn't make it up folks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:32 PM

As far as The Professor is concerned, there is NO logic there. Just uninformed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?q
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:49 PM

I think the distinction you are making, Keith, is that criticising Israel is not antisemitic, but criticising people or organisatiins for supporting Israel may be so described, in the case where these are Jewish. At any rate that seems to be the basis for many of the accusations we have heard in the case of the Labour Party.

I think there is a jump in logic here. At the time of the Spanish Civil War there were some Catholics, and some Catholic organisations in this country which favoured Franco. Would it have been anti-Catholic to object to this?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:25 PM

Ruth Smeeth actually cut up her Labour Party card in protest - surely she can explain what the Antisemitism is?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:19 PM

C'mon Keith - or are these just antismitic lies to smear even the Jewish Labour Party members?
It only takes a minute to provide a link
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership."
Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so - you certainly have not provided any proof of their having done this - but please feel free to prove you have.
Even if this were the case, there was nothing to stop them from going to the press or the pro-Israeli organisations some of them are part of.
You claim they haven't because of their loyalty to the Labour Party.
It is inconceivable that any Jewish politician would hide antisemitism for fear of damaging a Party they have already accused of Antisemitism let alone all Jewish members - that would have taken a mutual agreement for them to have done so - are you now claiming there was a clandestine meeting to agree this?
This is a total fabrication on your part to smear the Labour Party and to prove yourself "right" again.
If you don't provide proof it proveds you to be an extremist Antisemite to have invented this story which accuses all the Jewish members of the Labour Party - to a man and woman - of covering up Antisemitism by refusing to identify it.
Now - where's your proof of this disgusting story?
No proof, thn you stand exposed of Antisemitism
Now will do nicely, thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

I have not accused anyone of conspiring to do anything. You are trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:02 PM

Kevin,
or even are accused of in the context of the Labour Party.

No-one in Labour has been accused of anti-Semitism for criticising Israel.
They have been accused of anti-Semitism unrelated to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

It is perfectly possible to criticise the analysis I presented, as I indicated was the case. But that is not in fact relevant. My point was that there is nothing in it that relates to hostility towards Jews as Jews. If the inhabitants were predominently Mormons or Plymouth Brethren, that in itself would make no difference to the analysis, and there would be no grounds for thinking it implied any hostility towards members of those religions, or that in originated in such hostility.

If somebody were to regard Israel as illegimate or be hostile to it, because it was Jewish, that would indeed he antisemitic. But that is not what critics of Israel, or indeed those who challege its legitacy can fairly be accused of, or even are accused of in the context of the Labour Party. That is the case regardless of whether their objections stand up in face of examination or not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

Jim,
Nope - according to you mate Keith, they's rather say nothing

Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership.

Do you agree with Steve that there is a "pro-Israel lobby" conspiring to invent these incidents and to control governments?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Jim,
the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic"

No they have not.
They allow and welcome criticism.
There are no Haaretz Journalists in prison, and they are always criticising policy.
Egypt and Turkey lock up critical journalists, and in Russia they are shot in the street.
There are no opposition politicians locked up, unlike Turke, and unlike all those countries that have no opposition or free media.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

"Same elite group of Jews fomenting the anti-Semitism conspiracy against the UK Labour party?"
Nope - according to you mate Keith, they's rather say nothing and keep their jobs - a bit Antisemitic, doncha think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM

No point talking to him, Steve just at him.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

He really isn't worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:28 AM

MUST you be an ass, Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:17 AM

Same elite group of Jews fomenting the anti-Semitism conspiracy against the UK Labour party?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:58 AM

Donald J. Trump on Thursday accused Hillary Clinton of guiding a "global power structure" that has rigged the economy against the working class, language that some suggested echoed anti-Semitic themes.

The remarks drew criticism from some who said they resembled prejudicial language used by anti-Semites.

"Whether intentionally or not, Donald Trump is evoking classic anti-Semitic themes that have historically been used against Jews and still reverberate today," Jonathan Greenblatt, the chief executive of the Anti-Defamation League, a group that fights discrimination, said in a statement.

Mr. Greenblatt said the group feared that white supremacists might see the comments as tacit encouragement.

"Mr. Trump focused on the very issues and themes that obsess conspiratorial anti-Semites: They believe that there is an elite group of Jews who control the media, the government, and banking, and who are trying to destroy white America," he said. "They also believe that most of Hillary Clinton's donors are Jewish."

The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:44 AM

"There is no question as to the legitimacy of the State of Israel, why would you want to challenge it?"
Nobody here is challenging the legitimacy of the state as a State - despite your hysterical accusations
What is being challenged is the legitimacy of an administration that has destroyed the dream of the State by adopting measures not unsimilar than those who brought about the Holocaust.
This administration has declared war on Jewish opponents of their policies
Your defence has never been in support of the Jewish People, on the contrary, you have chosen to defend Israeli fascism and have sided with these people against your fellow Jews
You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People -= your concern is for the right wing extremists who have smashed the dream of a Jewish State.
Should you run true to form, you will now vomit out your antisemitic bile.
Respond to the facts rather that posting your usual hate mail.
INFECTED BY FASCISM
SEEDS of FASCISM


Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:16 AM

If the West Bank is considered to be "as much a part of Israel as Israel proper" this of course would definitely undermine the claim of Israel to legitimacy, in the light of the failure to provide the West Bank inhabitants (apart from settlers) with political and civil rights.

The desire of Israel is to transfer the territory to the "Palestinians" for a state. The Israeli's have made many attempts to do so all which have been rebuffed by the "Palestinian" leaders. The governance is in transition and is dependent upon the "Palestinian" leadership showing that they can provide public order and internal security which up to the present they have not been able to do. The citizens enjoy political and civil rights under the governance (such as it is) of the Palestinian Authority in areas A and B, the Israelis maintain authority in area C as a means of providing security for their citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation.

There is no question as to the legitimacy of the State of Israel, why would you want to challenge it? Those who do are usually of the ilk who challenge the holocaust.

Factually inaccurate, wishful thinking on your part and not representative of reality.

Which is a polite way of saying he is lying and lying in order to demonize Israel and it's people which makes him an anti-Semite - but we already know that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:45 AM

"Thanks to Israeli awareness and actions no-one is annihilating anyone"
So the 1,716 civlians slaughtered over the last few years are all makie-ups - must write that down!!
"Funny that is what I have always said, but Kevin disagrees and so does Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and Islamic Jihad "
The fascist state that Israel has become cannot continue to exist, certainly not without resistance
If Israeli Ministers declare war on all the Palestinian people, it is hardly surprising that those demands are met with similar demands
If all Palestinians are legitimate targets, all Israeilis are bound to be considered such - the proof of the pudding becoms apparent when you start countig the dead and the millions of refugees scattered over the planet.
I very much doubt if Kevin has made those demands
Israel has become a fascist state that has even turned on Jew who oppose it.
"False, emotive, claptrap."
Then respond to the facts with facts of your own instead of meaningless denials - even one of Israel's leading papers has gone as far as to say "Israel is not a Facist state, but it's pretty bad".
It is a common accusation, from Jews and non Jews
"Haven't you got that the wrong way round Carroll?"
No - and the use of my surname indicated that you are reverting to your neanderthal state - your insecurity is showing again - get a grip.
"Factually inaccurate, "
More unsubstantiated denials - seems your stock-in-trade.
"You rather conveniently omit to mention that she also described her statement as being anti-Semitic"
And she withdrew it - your Israeli Ministers have not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

Jim Carroll - 14 Oct 16 - 04:15 AM

1: Thanks to Israeli awareness and actions no-one is annihilating anyone - population figures prove that over the last 68 years.

2: "Israel is a legitimate State - that can never be challenged."

Funny that is what I have always said, but Kevin disagrees and so does Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and Islamic Jihad all of whom wish to see the eradication of the state and the annihilation of the Jewish people who reside there {Over 6 million of them}

3: "It is now run by a bunch of Fascists who are doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to the Jews"

False, emotive, claptrap.

4: "In order to defend itself from the consequences of its murderous behaviour, the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic"

Hardly, unlike anything that exists in areas under "Palestinian" control the Israeli Regime allows elections, free press and a democratic process that includes political opposition parties whose job it is to criticise the Government.

5: "declaring that the political interests of the state are subservient to the views of the people as a whole is Fascism by definition."

Haven't you got that the wrong way round Carroll? Shouldn't it be "the interests of the people are subservient {i.e. lower in priority or rank} to the interests of the state"

6: "Israeli behaviour is condemned throughout the civilised world by all but the self-interested politicians, who have not supported these actions, but have remained silent"

Factually inaccurate, wishful thinking on your part and not representative of reality.

7: "Shah's statement was unacceptable, she has withdrawn it and apologised for it."

You rather conveniently omit to mention that she also described her statement as being anti-Semitic made through ignorance and based upon false information.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

"anti-Semitic behaviour of the worst kind."
****** nonsense
Antisemitism of the worst kind was to murder sic million Jews - defensive warfare against Israeli fascism is not Antisemitism, it is self preservation.
All question of the right of Israel of Israel to exist in now a consequence of Israeli right-wing extremism and has largely been brought about by the regime's implicating the Jewish People in their murderous behaviour - antisemitc by definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:15 AM

"In the case of Israel it is."
You only need to compare the "Then and Now" maps of Palestine and the dead of both sides to see who is is annihilating whom
Israel is a legitimate State - that can never be challenged.
It is now run by a bunch of Fascists who are doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to the Jews - the possibility of this happening was pointed out by the finest brain on this planet ALBERT EINSTEIN , and a number of his Jewish colleagues as far back as the 1940s and is now being gradually acknowledged by JEWS AND NON JEWS ALIKE - the Jews who have deemed to criticise Israeli policy have been described as 'Self-Hating'
In order to defend itself from the consequences of its murderous behaviour, the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic" - declaring that the political interests of the state are subservient to the views of the people as a whole is Fascism by definition.
Israeli behaviour is condemned throughout the civilised world by all but the self-interested politicians, who have not supported these actions, but have remained silent
Only American vetoes have prevented Israel from facing trial for human rights for crimes against humanity - Israel's response to these threats has been to call for the abolition of the International Criminal Court.
Israel is now fascism gone viral - that has been stated by Jews thoughout the world, including members of the Israeli establishment.   
"c) In the case of Naz Shah she publicly stated her support for moving the Jewish population "lock-stock-and-barrel" and transporting them to the centre of the United States"
Shah's statement was unacceptable, she has withdrawn it and apologised for it.
The Israeli Justice Minister has called for the indiscriminate slaughter of the Palestinian people, making them all as the enemies of Israel
She has neither apologised for it nor withdrawn it
A previous Israeli Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who has recently been offered the post of Defence Minister, called for the beheading of all disloyal Arab Israeli citizens.
He has neither apologised for not withdrawn his comments
Both Shaked and Lieberman are high raking Israeli officials, Naz Shah made her comments in her youth, before she entered Parliament
There has not been a single shred of descriptive evidence offered for the claims of Antisemitism.
Keith has accused all Jewish Labour politicians of entering into a vow of silence by refusing to describe the Atisemitism that they claim is taking place
NOW THAT' WHAT I CALL ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 03:06 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 13 Oct 16 - 04:06 PM

1: "Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation."

In the case of Israel it is. By the way Kevin what other officially and internationally recognised country in the world has had its "legitimacy" challenged?

2: "Many people challenged the legitimacy of apartheid South Africa. What they wanted was a total transformation, not annihilation, nor for the expulsion of the white population."

No they did not Kevin, you are comparing apples to oranges, what people the world over challenged was the legitimacy of the Apartheid Regime in South Africa they did not challenge the legitimacy of the country itself.

Your point (b) was - "on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel" - that is "racist" and anti-Semitic. To challenge the legitimacy of a country is to challenge its right to exist.

3: "It is also perfectly fair to see countries such as the USA and Australia as having been built on a total illegitimate basis of annexation, theft and genocide. But that isn't the same as saying these countries should cease to exist."

Name a country that hasn't. But with regard to the territory of Palestine {It was never a country} the only people ever guilty of annexation were the Egyptians and Jordanians in 1948. Theft? By and large what the Jews acquired in the territory of Palestine was purchased legally from its owners. Genocide? What genocide? Were there a campaign of genocide being mounted against the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians then surely it must be the most ineffective and poorly conducted in history as it has been underway for 68 years now and the Arab population in the territory formerly known as Palestine has exploded.

4: "It is perfectly possible to challenge the legitimacy of the status quo as regard Israel, seen as a situation in which a state defined as confessionally Jewish, on the basis of past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip, The inhabitants of these territories are in effect living in Greater Israel, but with no effective political rights."

Israel is defined as a "Jewish State" because those were the words used to describe by the United Nations in their 1947 Two-State Plan. Nothing whatsoever to do with "ethnic cleansing", the current situation in the West bank is the situation agreed to by the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority and it is one that in comparison to Gaza has kept the peace for over a decade now. The Israelis forcibly removed all Israeli settlers from Gaza and unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Since then over 15,000 missiles have been fired from Gaza into Israel. I do take it Kevin that you accept that any person or any state that has been attacked has an inalienable right to defend itself? Gaza and the political faction that "governs" it have declared that their intention and goal is the eradication and annihilation of the State and Jewish population of Israel - that is anti-Semitic and anyone who sympathises with them and calls them "friend" automatically become tarred with the same brush. Israel is not the only country that has tightly controlled borders with Gaza. Hamas in Gaza are a danger to all, but to none more so than the "Palestinian" Arabs unfortunate enough to live under their "governance".

5: That analysis can be challenged, and is challenged - but I cannot see how it can rightly be identified with antisemitism.

Your analysis is at fault, the challenge to the right of existence of the internationally recognised State of Israel and the challenge to the right of its population to be allowed to live in peace free from attack and free from the threat of attack is anti-Semitic behaviour of the worst kind.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:25 AM

Steve, you have just stated your belief that some "pro-Israel lobby" is behind the accusations of antisemitism within Labour.
A few weeks ago you told us that even governments act under the influence of this "pro-Israel lobbby."
I asked several times what leverage they had, but you refused to answer.

I think you should explain how this conspiracy operates.
You are treading a very fine line because a "pro-Israel lobby" is likely to be overwhelmingly Jewish, and proposing a global Jewish conspiracy to control governments is well recognised as anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:49 PM

Kevin, there's no changing what passes for Bubo's mind. If you think there's such a possibility, you're as delusional as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:42 PM

Good luck. Learn from history. As long as he's here you will branded antisemitic every time you criticise Israeli policy or actions. A total impediment to debate, an attack on free speech which, ironically, the owner of this board and his moderators, free speech aficionados, don't recognise. You know damn well that neither you, I nor Jim have a single antisemitic bone in our bodies. The racism here, the hatred, emanates from Keith and bobad, mainly. You can be as measured as you like but you won't stop it, as has clearly been demonstrated this week. I know what I stand for and you know what you stand for, but the hateful, sniping bastards are always waiting for you. As Jeremy over on The Session would say, why not play a tune instead?   Mind you, there are no Keiths and no bobads over there anyway. People like that are persona non grata, as they damn well should be here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:53 PM

When I respond to a post like that, it's primarily to address points raised in that post, rather than to get in a conversation with thes person posting. You can hardly ever expect to change other people's minds - the idea is essentially to clarify your own understanding of what's at issue.

Play the ball, not the man.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

There was no "ethnic cleansing"

Lay down the BS and smear that funky feces till you die.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

You are on a hiding to nothing, Kevin. This person regards YOU as antisemitic. I wish you luck, but, as long as he's allowed to post here, you're stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:22 PM

The term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't invented until the troubles in former Yugoslavia erupted, but the removal of Arab Palestinians from what became Israel in 1948, the destruction of the physical record that they had ever existed, and the sustained refusal of their return very cleary merits the term.

If the West Bank is considered to be "as much a part of Israel as Israel proper" this of course would definitely undermine the claim of Israel to legitimacy, in the light of the failure to provide the West Bank inhabitants (apart from settlers) with political and civil rights.

However my point was not that the analysis I presented here was necessarily adequate or true, it was that it cannot be properly rermed "antisemitic".