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Today in Ireland's History
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 09 Dec 99 - 10:45 PM Ms. Kat, what is supposed to be the meaning of this "something to celebrate with caution.?" What side are you on? And what is your caution? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 10 Dec 99 - 08:03 AM Oviuously the kind of caution that causes someone to ask the question above anonimously! Larry Otway |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ringer Date: 10 Dec 99 - 08:36 AM Not every English(wo)man agrees with you, Little Dorrit (is your name a typo, by the way?). -I- think that, far from destroying this country, Mrs T restored it from being a laughing-stock (remember "the English Disease"?) to being able to hold its head up again. She wasn't perfect, but was, IMO, a Good Thing. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:01 PM Well there are people who'd say the same of Oliver Cromwell, Bald Eagle. Burt I'd have a bit more in common with them.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:16 PM Well Sisters and Brothers Just goes to show you, as we hear from our friend Bald Egal, that this is the stuff of horse races. There are still people who believe in Reganomics and winning cold wars. Some people believe you count up the toys at the end of the game, to see who won, and overlook the casualties. The Irish Free State, to return to the thread, May have had their Rory Liam dick and Joes, but the Iron Grocerywoman had her Bobby Sands MP, Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O Hara, Joe MacDonnald, Martin Hurson, Keven Lynch, Michael Devine, and so many others in England, the Malvitas (a war fought for her husbands buisness interest while publicly promoting the rights of his tenant farmers)... sometimes it is better to be a laughing stock. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Bert Date: 10 Dec 99 - 02:25 PM Just one of the reasons that made me get the hell out of England was when old tin nickers stole my vote. So don't tell me how good she was. I was working in The Middle East at the time and them Tories knew that a lot of Ex-Pats were against the Common Market so they wouldn't accept absentee votes for the referendum. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: johntm Date: 10 Dec 99 - 03:45 PM Big Mick I love that 12th of July song as sung by Terrell, but I have to admit I have trouble deciphering the last stanza. Can anyone help me on what the first lines mean? John T M. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Little dorritt Date: 10 Dec 99 - 06:25 PM Probably was a typo bald eagle who cares? the damage that thatcherism did to this country will take decades to put right. i never held my head up in the thatcher years - as an ardent pro-european I spent much of it cringing in embarassment. She destroyed peoples lives, from miner's to ethnic minorities to trade unionists - the list went on and on. a cure that is worse than the disease bald eagle is no cure at all! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Den Date: 10 Dec 99 - 11:44 PM Dear friends east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. I come from N. Ireland, I lived my life there. All my imediate family still live there. I don't usually respond to these threads and I promised myself that I wouldn't respond to this one. Now here I am...I could tell you stories that would curl your hair...but I won't, not now. To do that would be (IMO)undermine what is beginning to happen in NI and alienate some people, who's oppinions I appreciate on the Mudcat. The NI malady has already infected the Mudcat. We're starting to draw up camps. George H backs Cromwell I see his point of view, I'm sure to George, Cromwell is one of us. I understand that. I also understand the views of those who find Cromwell repugnant. In NI your one or the other. It has always been and will always be. For those who don't know, NI is polarized. In its most basic terms the football team you support. Celtic v Rangers, Cliftonvile v Linfield all have a baring on where you come from, what religion you are. There are whole towns in NI that are one or the 0ther. Newry or Rostrevor or Lisburn or Lurgan. David Trimble won't even shake Jerry Adams hand and they're supposed to be civil and ultimately form a government. I extend my hand to whoever will take it in understanding, that I will not change the way you think and You will definatly not change the way I think. But in the hope that you may understand me and I you. And maybe in that way we will find peace and maybe some day even like each other. In my oppinion that's the best case scenario for NI. I stand to be corrected. Den |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: _gargoyle Date: 10 Dec 99 - 11:50 PM I personally, would like the "hear" from the laughing cat....
Which side are you on???? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:39 AM Den - To say that "It has always been and will always be" in regards to the NI situation strikes me as defeatest, at best. Yes, there is a long and ugly history of apartheid there, and I recognize it won't change overnight. That said, I believe that it must and will change. Can you really imagine anything more stupid than hating people because they adhere to a different variety of the same faith? Yes, there is a lenghty history of christians killing christians in the name of christ, dating at least to the Albigensian crusades of the early 13th century. And I wouldn't be too surprised to find similar insanities in other faith communities as well, not to mention inter-faith killing. But the prevalence of the pattern doesn't change its fundamental stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:58 AM "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" quotes Den.
But if you follow on with the next lines you see that Kipling was actually saying something much more hopeful and relevant:
Oh East is East and Wst is West, and never the twain shall meet, Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's own Judgement Seat; Or from the Falls and the Shankill.
If English politicians ( and a few other outsiders)can stop stirring the fire for a generation, there's every reason for hope.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Alan of Australia Date: 11 Dec 99 - 09:59 AM G'day Larry, These days I live a long way from the ranges that share your name, but my parents spend a lot of time in the Otways, my father has written a book on the native orchids in the area & my brother has a holiday house in the area.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Den Date: 11 Dec 99 - 10:06 AM paddymac I did finish with I stand to be corrected. I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that I am wrong in my view. My family still live there. But, and theres always a but, I can't see any peace pilgrimages from the Shankill to Andy town or the residents of Ardoyne rushing out to embrace those from the Sandy Row. Defeatist maybe, realist definately. These communities have been divided for too long. This hatred, ignorance, lack of trust (pick one or two) may be stupid to those looking in from the outside but it is a way of life in NI. Its part of the fabric and it will not change in my lifetime if I live to be an old man and again I hope I'm wrong. The one thing I am grateful for is that the bombing and shooting has stopped. You can now do your Christmas shopping in the city centre without fear and then repair to Robinsons for a drink before getting your black hack back home. Just be careful which part of town you get in your taxi and be double sure which community the taxi serves. I don't want to get into a slagging match with you paddymac. I respect your oppinion too much but I'm not talking out of my hat here either. Den |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 11 Dec 99 - 10:08 AM I saw this morning in the paper that the Castlereagh interrogation center will be closed by the end of the year. This news evoked a visceral response in me being that a close friend had to endure ten days there years ago, along with her two little sisters, all of them minors at the time. She and her family still 'live with the nightmare of Castlereagh,' to paraphrase Alex Maskey; however, she is firmly behind the peace agreement and the eventual disarmament of all pm groups. Knowing her background and her thoughts on peace, and now seeing the closing of the facility, give me a firmer hope that peace can come to the island, one step at a time. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Dec 99 - 12:42 PM Anybody noticed that this thread is proceeding in an informative, respectful way. There has been anger, because it's a passionate issue, but also apologies. Most have shown that they understand (with different interpretations of course) the details involved. To me this indicates that people have done their homework, either by experiencing and observing, or extensive reading. It makes for the kind of writing that got me into Mudcat in the first place. That, and the same approach to discussions of music. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 03:44 PM A bit up the thread I put a song in, and some people said they liked it. There's a Real Player file with me singing the tune (a bit off-key - I can't get used to singing at a computer) up on my website. Look in the What's New sesction.
And the URL for my website is www.bigfoot.com/~kevin.mcgrath
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 11 Dec 99 - 03:56 PM Kevin, I just emailed you about this song. It is beautiful, and I encourage everyone to go to Kevin's site and hear it. Well done, sir. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 07:07 PM Thanks, Aine.
And I share Rick's appreciation of the way this thread has avoided the spiral of vituperation that seems to have threatened to tear the Mudcat apart at times in the past. We don't have to avoid contentious subjects, we just have to avoid tearing each other to pieces, and ignoring other people's points of view.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 99 - 08:27 PM And I've just found out that while me song plays ok on Internet explorer, Netscape won't wear it. I'll never get me head round all this technical stuff. I think I'm coming down with the Millennium Bug. (And I've got a somg about that. Hasn't everyone?) |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Big Mick Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:16 AM Rick, I am in complete agreement with you. I am very proud of this thread and its paricipants. I have tried unsuccessfully to have it before. But no one, up until this bunch have been able to deal with the passion from both sides. The closest we came was with Sapper and Penny. So to all here..........well done. You have exemplified that which is the very best about the Mudcat. Difference of opinion without personal attack. johntm, that last verse caused me some confusion as well. But I take it to be a comment that simply says that it doesn't matter what the cause of the blending, be who you are and we for each other. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: johntm Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:48 AM Big Mick That was my take also, but I wondered if I missed something. Terrell is right that the author was a poet to his core, and that is what you have to go with. Great song. Someone should push it as an if the anthem for N. Irland, if that does not seem too naive. John T. M |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 99 - 04:51 AM See also Bumbling Englishman |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Ringer Date: 12 Dec 99 - 07:15 AM I don't understand your posting, Bert (from 10th - sorry for delay). It was a LABOUR government that had a referendum about the Common Market (as it was then), not Mrs T. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Dec 99 - 08:11 AM Big Mick: Looking at that line, I strongly suspect it's not what the author must have actually written, because it doesn't scan. It's very easy for mistakes to creep in through the writing or the printing, so I think there's no duty to stick to a text that may have been corrupted, if it might make better sense with a little change:
If I were singing it (and if I had the tune, I think I would want to) I'd be inclined to turn the line to:
Now may it be our country's cause
(Or maybe "Now may it be in common cause..." Either brings out the sense I think is actually intended.)
This is from the man who had the impertinence to rewrite and augment a Seamus Heaney song, "The Road to Derry" (and that's on my website as well. Frank Harte told me that Seamus quite approved of being included in the folk process, though I don't know what he thought of the amendments.)
I wonder if the song is related to "The Orange Lily-o", - which is another song you might think of bringing in to the repertoire. It's about a flower show, with "patriotic undertones" - and a hint of disdain for the English Viceroy, I think.
"Oh did you go to see the show
The elated muse, to hear the news
The lowland field may rose yield That is from, Colm O Lochlann's Irish Street Ballads - and on the next page there is Mrs McGrath. Colm writes in the notes about Mrs McGrath: "In the years 1913-16 it was the nost popular marching song of the Irish volunteers, Ilearnt it on route matches."
About the Orange Lily-o he writes "I heard an older and more pungent ballad, but could not find it printed. All I remember is
The thing is, there's always been in principle an honoured place for the Orange tradition in Ireland. (That's why the tricolour looks the way it does, instead of the sectarian Green with Papal White and Yellow that it started with in 1916.) Incidentally the tunes and metre of "The Sash" and "Kevin Barry" are interchangeable. And I think actually both songs work better if you switch the tunes around. If you've got the nerve...
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 12 Dec 99 - 12:15 PM A Chaoimhin, Do you have an MP3 player on your computer? If you can play an MP3 file, I will send you the version of The Twelfth of July that I have. Can't remember who does it, but I know it's very good. Let me know. And thank you for your last message. It's wonderful when someone with your knowledge shares it with us. Slan go foill, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Dec 99 - 01:48 PM I have winamp (another freebie); so I'd be delighted to have the song.
Not so much knowledge as qualified ignorance. The great thing with this medium is that you can leap in with a relevant quote from a book that's been gathering dust on your shelves, or chase off through the net to find some obsure bit of information, and people think you're highly knowledgeable.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: alison Date: 12 Dec 99 - 11:40 PM Aine.. send it to me too please.... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 13 Dec 99 - 12:27 AM Dear Kevin and Alison, Sending you both emails about where you can find this -- it'll save you both room in your email boxes! Slan, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Date: 14 Dec 99 - 12:21 AM And You Mr. Rick Fielding....
Precisely, Where Do You Lay?
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:21 AM Do you think our anonimous friend above, means what foot do you dig with? - or are you a Celtis or Rangers fan? Where do you lay sounds vaguely, well, I dont know, that is one of those what difference does it make quesitons, listen to what someone says not where they say it from. Larry Otway |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:43 AM The pratt might think he's a chicken I suppose. It's very difficult lipreading what these Invisible Men are saying. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:31 PM Well, today's another bad day in Ireland's history, I suppose. Though you can never tell, there might be some devious plot on, designed to get the process a bit further on by subtrfuge. "Choreography" is how they put it on the TV.
(I can't see why the IRA can't let off a bomb in a field somewhere - then the Brits can say "they've decommissioned some Semtex", and the IRA can say "We've demonstrated our military readiness", and everyone can get back to work. But maybe they've got to get Trimble past this big meeting he's got before they do anything simple like that.)
But that's not why I opened this thread up from the old one (rather than starting up a new one.) And please, lets not get into too much of a fight over it all. Though tghis thread was a pretty good one, I felt. There's some kind of a peace process on the Mudcat at the moment which has to be treated cautiously.
No - it's about the song "12th July" that Big Mick and others are singing with Sean Tyrrell's tune. There was a query about making sense of the last verse, and later Big Mick admitted that it was hard making sense of it. Well I think I've solved the problem.
The troublesome lines as posted above by Big Mick, and previously by someone else. and as sung currently, are: And even though it be in our country's cause Our party feelings blended I couldn't make sense of it either, and I've been singing instead "But when united in our country's cause" -which carries the sense which I feel is meant, and is also easier to sing with the tune Sean Tyrrell put to it.
But the other day in a charity shop I came across an anthology of Irish writing called "Rich and Rare", by SEan McMahon, publisheed in 1984 by Poolbeg Press in Swords, Co Dublin.
It has lots of great stuff in it. Did you know the original version of "Croppies lie down" starts with the line "We soldiers of Erin, so proud of the name"? And the full version of "The Protestant Boys" has the lines "While Papists shall prove our brotherly love - we hate them as masters, we love them as men."
But the point here is that the book has a version of "The 12th July" - or rather "Song for July 12th 1843", as written by John Frazier (pen name Jean de Jean Frasier) in the Nation, which was edited then by Thomas Davis.
And in place of the confusing lines, the final verse runs:
E'vn thus be, in our country's cause
Which makes a lot more sense as a song. And even more sense as a sentiment. Especially today. (Mind, I think my variant version is easier to sing and to make sense of when you're listening.)
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:42 PM Today February 11, 2000 is GLORIOUS in Ireland's History!!!
Our trust is built on 400 years of precedent! |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 11 Feb 00 - 10:47 PM If your first statement was not the reason you opened the thread, then why did you mention it? There has been a lot of things said recently about people who make statements purely to get a reaction. And to believe that some people thought it didn't apply to them. Well it does. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Gary T Date: 12 Feb 00 - 01:55 AM Well, anonymous guest, one way to ensure 400 more years of the same is to avoid any changes that could improve things. I can't say I'm informed enough to understand or pass judgment on the IRA's way of looking at things, but I find it very sad that what appeared to be a fairly promising opportunity to better the situation seems to be evaporating. Brendy, I would think the answer to this question: "If your first statement was not the reason you opened the thread, then why did you mention it?" is that given the title of the thread, it would be bizarre not to. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 00 - 03:47 AM Gary's right there, Brendy - I opened the thread because that's the one where the query about the song came up. It was only when I opened it I noticed the title, and then I couldn't help but refer to the fact that Direct Rule is back again, which isn't a very good thing. No,it wasn't intended to stir the shit, and I doubt if we disagree too much on these things. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: The Shambles Date: 12 Feb 00 - 04:24 AM Today (12th February) there is still hope for peace. Can we all at least agree, to preserve that hope here? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: GUEST,Trevor Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:50 AM So long as the faceless gangsters of the IRA's Army Council pull the strings, Sinn Fein will dance to their tune and so will everyone else. Talk about a government within a government. Direct Rule from the Republican rump. Trevor |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:08 AM The Shambles said the right thing. I hope we can keep to it. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Penny S. Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:40 AM Lasting peace from equal laws - please. I can understand it wouldn't work any other way. The Catholic Bishop of Derry has an idea which might be valuable (in the Thursday Guardian, see www.newsunlimited). Penny |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:43 AM I'm thinking "Spanish is the loving tongue, mi Amor, mi Corazon..." Why am I thinking that. Today in Spain's history might be equally hard to think about. It's because I'm so grateful that our folk tradition adds ways of finding being peacable that can be hard to find when we look only to one side of anything... that if one looks up McGrath's various recent postings, for instance, there's a richness of caring and reflection that looks at all of life, not just the content of this thread. Because I know that, I care what he says in this thread and can "hear" him. We all have that precious gift, to be able to step back from anything that's hard to think about within its own paradigm and instead look at it from an entirely new perspective. In fact even if we forget to do that intentionally, some song that helps us do it is liable to pop into our heads, like just did to mine. Example-- feeling really bad one day, really nasty and under outside attack, negative and lost, in pops: "In moments like this, I sing out a song, I sing out a love song...." A song that had been written to express love in a tender, loving moment-- now coming to pull me out of a funk. Today in Ireland's history... people are still people.
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:47 AM It takes courage and trust to make a peace. No army in the history of mankind gave its weapons over before the peace was assured. Both sides, like the detant between the US and Russia, must approach peace with courage and trust, but with caution. Enlish history in Ireland has been fraught with great instances of out and out treachery and cold blooded political murder by loyalists, even after the truce, as in the case of Barrister - I am drawing a blank on her name, to my abosulte shame - the like of her should never be forgotten (like Albi Sachs and John Finucaine some lawyers should stand as becons in the dark night of judical terrorism) - and, not to enguage in the degree of of name calling that Trevor does, in speaking about faceless etc. (not entirely true, as many volunteers in the IRA are well know and outspoken) I can only say that the lessons of Irish history call on both sides to exibit caution at the same time as extending trust and I can only pray that England has the courage to enguage in democracy. In friendship and peace Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:50 AM PS: If anyone can be so kind as to post Rosemarys last name in the above reference. She was the lawyer killed by a loyalist car bomb last summer. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Áine Date: 12 Feb 00 - 09:46 AM Dear Larry, Her name is Rosemary Nelson. Le meas, Áine |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Linda Kelly Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:04 PM I am the eternal optimist as far as ireland is concerned -the more normality returns to everday life the more difficult it will be to justify terrorism loyalist or republicanism. David Trimble spoke on the news yesterday of speaking with Martin Mcguiness and then gerry adams- that woudl have been unheard of a few months ago. I hope the suspension of the assembly is a breathing space and allows both parties to gras what is at stake. If all else fails perhaps another referendum shoudl be held to confirm whether the people of N.I want to continue depsite the decommissioning question. It is very important to remember that by and large despite no handover of weapons the ceasefire has held. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: Brendy Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:52 PM No, fair enough, McGrath. I don't think we differ too much on subjects such as this, and I accept your assertion that it was not the original reason you opened the thread again. I did forsee, though, statements as made by above named GUEST, and if everyone thinks the fault lies in the Nationalist camp, well, perhaps they are believing the propaganda that the English media have been purpounding of late.(only of late?) Trimble said that in November of last year he, and the rest of the Unionist party "jumped", and they invited Sinn Féin to "jump" with them. What on earth did they do that for?; why did they try to force the issue, instead of letting ALL affected interest groups, and institutions get on with the business of implementing the 'Agreement'? Ulster Unionism is no friend of democracy. Never has been. They are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the old order. The old order where THEY rule, and we obey. Where THEY decide who gets Council dwelling and where we accept it. Where THEY decide if we're guilty. Where THEY have the positions of power, and we are not allowed a slice of that cake. Anybody who thinks that the Unionists entered this peace process willingly has an ignorance of things worldly that I truly envy. Blowing a ship full of Semtex up does not solve anything; such things can be replaced. So, guns are not the problem. People think it is, or are led to believe that it is. Finding excuses to deny us a slice of that cake is what drives these Unionists. The only thing that they can't do as effectively as they have in the past is to have the undivided attention of the ruling Government. And in the days of Conservatism in England, the Ulster Unionists had Thatcher's and Major's ears; they held the balance of power. On occasion the fate of the Tory Govt. lay squarely in the lap of the Ulster Unionists. Did they use that power benevolently? I think not. Ulster Unionists are experts at shifting the focus of attention off themselves and their PR machine fosters fear and recrimination. And judging by certain posts in this thread, they have some of you convinced as well. Mandelson dissolved the Assembly because a self imposed condition by David Trimble was in danger of backfiring on him. If Gerry Adams had said in November that HE would resign unless Loyalist paramilitaries had started the handover of weapons by February 11th, Ulster Unionism would have blown it's top, and many speaches would have been made as to the imposition of alterior agendas on behalf of the Republican movement.
We can't win here. Not with that kind of logic in operation we can't. It helps not one whit to lay the blame at our door. If we keep dancing to the Unionist tune, they'll just keep playing. If they were dancing to our tune, they would be living in in our utopia. And as we both know GUEST, Trevor, that is not the case. |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: InOBU Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:23 AM Dear Dear Aine: Thanks, I was beside myself that I could not remember her last name. I was at a comference that she was to be the keynote speaker at, when she was murdered. It was full of her dear friends, all with storries of her heroism. I understand and endorse the spirit by which Ickle Dorritt makes her suggestion, however, suspention of Democracy can never be called breathing space. Britain must have the courage to stand up to the monster it created in Loyalist terrorism, and the only way to end a condition of war is with democracy, not the jerimander kind, where the majority of the naitonalist community is forced to leave, creating a false majority among loyalists, but a real enguaging meeting of ideas - and suspention of demorcacy in the face of threats can only lead us back to that blood soaked one way trail, we all want to leave behind us. All the best Larry
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: paddymac Date: 13 Feb 00 - 12:11 PM Trevor, many of us, yourself included, can do well to from time to time ponder, without blinders, the question of why there was ever a need for the IRA. We seem to be inching painfully toward a time when we can perhaps productively ponder not whether that need and the factors causing it still exist, but how much longer will it be so? |
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Subject: RE: Today in Irelands History From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 00 - 08:34 PM "Blowing a ship full of Semtex up does not solve anything" - well it does, it means that they have "decommissioned" that Semtex, and have put the ball back into the other fella's court.
Of course they can perfectly well get some more, just as if they decommissioned some guns by melting them down they could always get some more. It's pure theatre, and a waste of time.
Where blowing up Semtex has it over destroying guns is that destroying guns has more overtones of surrender. Controlled explosions in a quarry somewhere maybe? Well, they could be seen as firework displays for the millennium, evidence of continued ability to wage war - but also they'd serve as a way of fulfilling the demand for a symbolic act of "decommissioning." Ambiguity is the key to successful negiotiation sometimes.
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