BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers

Subject: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

This has got to be a new low in "warfare". Despicable.

Down Syndrome women used as suicide bombers

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:14 PM

Wesley, that is one of the very few news articles I've ever read that made me want to puke.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:15 PM

I want to hear the whole story, but if this checks out, it is as low as it gets. I cannot imagine what justification the apologists will use if this is true. Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:15 PM

What about a mentally handicaped president invading the country to begin with?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM

I knew it wouldn't take long. Listen Rig, I am opposed to this war and have been from the git go. But there is no justification for this, none.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM

Okay, I'll admit, it was a rotten thing to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM

Since the explosive devices were equipped with remote control, is "suicide" really an operative term in this case?

More like outright murder, seems to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:49 PM

From 29/40 TV News (I think).

'BAGHDAD -- The chief Iraqi military spokesman in Baghdad said the female bombers who killed nearly 70 people Friday in separate attacks on two markets in the Iraqi capital may not have been willing attackers.

His office said the female bombers apparently had Down syndrome [alternatively called trisomy 21 or Down's Syndrome]. And officials said the explosives were detonated by remote control.

In the first attack, police said a woman detonated explosives hidden under her traditional black Islamic robe, killing at least 46 people.

As many as 22 others died when a second female suicide bomber struck a bird market in a southeastern Baghdad.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said the attacks were committed by terrorists motivated by revenge, and hoping to show that they "are still able to stop the march of history and of our people toward reconciliation."'

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:58 PM

Some years ago, my wife and I attended a peace conference over a Fourth of July weekend at the Seabeck Conference Center out on Hood Canal. Beautiful pastoral setting, a perfect place for such an event. Barbara and I arrived in the morning of the first day of the conference, and at lunch, we shared a table with a young woman who had a daughter, about three years old, I would guess, who had Down's Syndrome. Her condition was apparent from her facial features, and she couldn't talk, but it soon became evident that she was a sweet, happy child.

We saw the child and her mother many times over that weekend, and as I went from meeting to meeting in my wheelchair, every time the child saw me, she would come running down the path or across the lawn, crawl up in my lap, and give me a big hug while her mother stood by. She and I would smile at each other while the little girl clung to me and I hugged her back.

Whatever life had in store for this little girl, I felt that she had one very important thing going for her. She was a little bundle of love. Pure, unconditional love. It's so rare that you actually experience something like that. I've never forgotten her, and I never will.

When I read that story, I thought of the little girl, and I'm having a hard time dealing with the way it made me feel. I'm having a hard time reconciling the feeling of simple, open love I received from her with the fury that overwhelmed me at the thought that there are people in the world who would take someone like this innocent little girl and use her as a weapon.

Hell can't be hot enough!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:01 PM

You're right. Suicide is not the proper word. They were used as if they were suicide bombers but they were just delivery systems. That makes the people who used them scum sucking pigs regardless of the reasons or justifications used.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Bee
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:07 PM

Agreed. Any one who could do this is indeed scum, regardless of motive.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:56 PM

It was reported on the news in the UK; the women were described as 'mules' - unknowing and 'disposable weapons'

Just one more atrocity in an ocean of atrocities.

If I had a God like those who post here witness I would howl!

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM

CNN's version of the story here

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:19 PM

If 'tis true, 'tis more than a pity. It is a crime for which the perpetrators deserved to be eternally ground between the teeth of Shaitan.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:48 PM

Or any god, goddess, no matter what the name. Sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women as bombers
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:35 PM

These women cannot have been willing attackers. One of my uncles had Downs Syndrome and he would not have been able to make a decision to be a suicide bomber. It is definitely not a suicide bombing.

Actions like this make me so sad; they are using and killing vulnerable and innocent people. It is cowardice of the worst form.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:12 PM

On the other hand, considering that my government has lied to us so often, how do they know the women were mentally challenged? They had to know before hand. So. How do they know?

Don't forget, if a Muslim dies in defense of Islam against the infidel, they go directly to heaven. It's THEIR belief system that motivates them, not ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:22 PM

This is just SO wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:27 PM

Ummmmm???

First it was WMD's...

Aluminum tubes...

Uranium cakes from Niger...

Saddam is a bad man...

etc., etc...

Hey, I flat out don't believe the media anymore becasue they are no longer journalists but messengers for Bush's PR folks...

Anyone who believes this story should contact me immediately 'cuase I ahve a bridge to sell..

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Melissa
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:31 PM

Whether the story is true or propaganda, it's disgusting.
Either way, it's sick and twisted.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:33 PM

If it's true it's vile.

If it's false that's vile.

And the fact we can't honestly tell which of those is the true one is vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

If is is yet another Bush PR stunt, then Bush should be impeached...

Yeah, the problem with the PR crap that the Bush people have gotten away with for 7 long years is that it always hits its mark but when it is found out to be just another friggin' lie that has been devised to keep people all pissed off then the tretarctions are buried on page A-17...

Here is my suggestion... Assume it is a lie... No matter how disgusting, it most likely is just that... Bush and his "Surge", which BTW is another bigass lie, want you folks to think what ***he*** wants you to think...

If I had to rawe this one on the credibility chart I'd give this one about a 1 in 20 chance of being the truth...

But if you want to believe it, go ahead... It's supposedly a free country and that means that you can believe the sky is green if you like...

So have at it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:47 PM

Emma: "If I had a God like those who post here witness I would howl!"

eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:55 PM

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jiH8JaSTeM_Repryn4z-tPht03Vg

http://www.kgan.com/template/inews_wire/wires.international/29824de5-www.kgan.com.shtml


Articles about it, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:59 PM

I can't see where the advantage would lie in doing it this way - genuine suicide bombers are evidently not too hard to recruit. I have a suspicion that these poor women might have been among the victims of this murderous atrocity, and the story that's been put out is somebody's idea of a clever bit of black propaganda.

Either way they are dead, along with a lot of other innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:02 PM

"If is is yet another Bush PR stunt, then Bush should be impeached..."

There are worse things for which he should already be impeached.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:03 PM

If it is true, then all I can say is "You weak livered scumbag bastards"

I have a special needs daughter and the thought of somebody doing that with my daughter just appalls me.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM

I wholly agree, Villan, with the same personal reason as you have to reinforce my feelings.

And that's true either way. Making use of these poor women as mere instruments is despicable, whoever might be doing it and for whatever reason, killing or propaganda..

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:24 PM

"I wholly agree, Villan, with the same personal reason as you have to reinforce my feelings."

Ditto, guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:27 PM

Yes. Either way, lie or truth, it's just vile.
A New Low shall we say.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM

The propaganda is comin' outta Washington...

I don't really care how officail the news reports look, they are all "cooked books" reporting these days, folks...

Every major news department in the US has cut funding for news in the last few years...

Why???

Because it doesn't turn a profit...

So what we get is the company fight song sung in whatever key fits ya'...

I would bet the farm that this is another lie... Oh yeah, the lies are gettin' more gloss to make them look beleiveable but a lie is a lie is a lie...

The reason that Bush is making every possible effore to twist the events on the ground in Irag is that he has to... Yes, has to... This game is winding down and he is trying to get folks to think that ********The Surge********* is working...

Bull!!!

**********The Surge********** is another lie... Paying the Sunni's not to kill US ain't victory... It is a collasal drain on the US Treasury... That what this is all about... Of course you can get the numbers down if you have enough friggin' cash to buy off the folks who want you dead???

Where is the victory there???

So when something like these bombinf occur, Bush can't allow the American people to think for ***one friggin minute*** that *********The Surge********* ain't workin' so his PR folks rev up yet another line of bullsh*t....

Oh, and for the record, the Iraqis never threw the babies out of the incubators in Kuwait...

Lie, lies and more lies....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM

Bobert, ya lost the plot, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM

I have been watching Al-Jazeera to see what might be reported there, but so far nothing except the news of the bombings.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

Well, I'll just sit back watch right now... I said my piece... I don't trust the folks who are supposed to be telling US the thruth on Iraq... We've been lied to so often that I have no faith left in mw any more that anyone knows what the hell is going on in Iraq...

All I know is that American kids are still dieing and coming home disabled for life... The official American dead is gonna hiy 4000 in a few days... The unofficial count has been there for some time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:08 PM

Anybody can make up a story like this for propaganda purposes.

And don't forget the 100,000-odd Iraqis that have already been killed in this invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:55 AM

Gulliver - You have a point there. And remember Jessica Lynch.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:09 AM

Well, maybe they're running out of WILLING bombers - that would be a good thing, no? Not that this is a good thing, of course, but it may be a symptom of a cure beginning...

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM

Listen ... I only have one question .... did someone strap bombs with remote control devices on two Down's Syndrome affected women? It is the only question I need answered. I already know what Bush is. I already know that the war is based on lies. I already detest those things. But if someone is now making the decision to say that these folks have less value in the world, hence we can use them as human bombs,....... the last coward who did that died by his own hand in a bunker in Berlin. Anyone, whether from the USA or Al-Qaida, that would do that needs to be hunted down and dealt with.

This isn't a debate, Gulliver, about the appropriateness of the war. Everyone gets that. This is a simple matter. Did someone use these two women in this way. Answer that and spare me the rest.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:40 AM

Comsider the "source", Mick...

This story reeks of Karl Rove...

Reminds me of the story of the Iraqi's takin' Kuwaiti babies out of the incubabtors...

Gotta keep the "boogie men" front and center...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM

I disagree. We have to keep the boogie ideas front and center. We have focused so long on the "boogie men" that we end up equivocating on the simple issue of right from wrong. I am tired of alibi'ing horrendous acts, such as using kids as soldiers, or Down's patients as bombers, because of the "cause". It is entirely legitimate to question the validity of the story. But it is not correct, or moral, IMO, to allow any legitimacy to the act. None. It is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

No opinions on how they knew?

One of our long standing problems in dealing with other cultures is the simple fact that we don't know how they think. We automatically look at them through our own eyes and find them disgusting. Well, in our culture, such an act is beyond disgusting.
There have been other cases of women suicide bombers, but our government doesn't want to admit that they did it on their own accord, because we have to believe that Muslim women are treated like shit, and that is simply not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:03 PM

Captain, I understand (better than most) what differences in culture mean during times of war. I carry scars from those differences. As hard as it is for some to understand, I get what drives someone to commit suicide for a cause. What I don't get is sending someone incapable of understanding what they are doing to be used as a human bomb. This smacks of the "relative value of human life" type of horseshit that leads to the greatest atrocities.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

You missed my point, Mick...

Yes, if Down Syndrome women were sent unknowingly to their deaths this would certainly be a cowardly and evil act, regarless of one's cultural background...

What I am suggesting here is we aren't getting the correct story... It smells like fish to me...

The Bush people have been hellbent in portraying "The Surge" as this big sucess... These bombings didn't fit in with the PR and so, IMO, the Down Syndrome women were invented...

...thus keeping folks attention off the absolute stupidity of this war and onto "the boogie man" who the Bushites conviently always seem to come up with when things look bad for them...

As for "The Surge" being a success??? What a complete joke... Paying Sunni's billions of our tax dollars not to kill our kids isn't a success... It's like the mom and pop stores who used to pay "protection money" to the mob... Meanwhile, those billion$ of borrowed dollar$ are part of the reason our economy is in the crapper... Where's the success in that??? "The Surge" is a complete failure and all the PR money in the world won't change that...

It's up to all of US to question every story that comes out of the media 'cause with less and less money actually going into corporate "news departments", big media is dependent more and more for having to report just what the governemnt wants them to report...

This is the fox watching the hen house...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:28 PM

The story from Alalam: 'Local police said the woman wearing the bomb sold cream in the mornings at the market and was known to locals as "the crazy lady."' So they knew the first woman. As to the second: 'About 20 minutes after the first attack, the second female bomber was blown apart in the bird market in a predominantly Shiite area in southeastern Baghdad.'

They don't really talk about the mental capabilities of the second woman, but I'd presume witnesses who didn't die knew here as well.

Here's Al Jazeera's take on it. They've named the same source as other reports" 'Brigadier General Qassim al-Moussawi, Iraq's chief military spokesman in Baghdad, said the women were mentally handicapped and may have been unaware they were on a suicide mission.'

When you make up your mind what to believe based on your prejudices, you're just as blinkered as 'the other guys'. Belief doesn't make a thing true, and disliking whoever says something doesn't make them a liar. Sources in Iraq, Ireland, the UK, Israel, Canada, Germany, Italy, New Zealand, Australia, Denmark ALL have reported the same thing. They may have all picked up the story from US or Iraqi reports, but I have yet to see any contradictory reports.

Questioning is one thing. Automatically believing something isn't true isn't any smarter than believing it is. Question yes, but find evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:45 PM

But it is not correct, or moral, IMO, to allow any legitimacy to the act   I entirely agree. But I think it is wise to reserve judgement on whether the act actually took place. (The killing took place, anmd that was an evil thing to do - by "the act" I mean the use of these ladies in this way, and that is still open to question.)

Automatically believing something isn't true isn't any smarter than believing it is. Question yes, but find evidence. Precisely. And don't make up your mind until you have that evidence.

We've been lied to far too often to be able to trust what we are told by any official source in this kind of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:24 PM

I didn't say I absolutely didn't believe this story, Jeri...

What I did say is that it smells like fish and I also said from all appearances it seemed like a Karl Rove PR story...

And I also pointed out that "news departemnts" are stretched so thin that they are increasingly dependent on the governemnt to give them the news; a givernemnt which has repeatedly not told US the truth...

Right now, if a story smells fishy, looks fishy and swims fishy my instinct tells me to wait on conclusive evidence...

Of course the story was reproted all over... So was Conidi Rice saying that we'd have "mushroom clouds" over our heads if we didn't sign on to Bush's war...

Lastly, what we have found is that when the lies are told it takes awhile to unravel them.... Just like "The Surge" being a success??? Give this one time and I strongly believe that the historians will get this one right, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:32 PM

So what did you think of the Al Jazeera article?

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM

Well, gol danged, Jeir... Look who was quoted??? This guy obviously would say anything he could to try to get his "enemy" to look bad, wouldn't he...

How is this any different from the Kuwaitis saying that that the Iraqi's had taken the babies outta the incubators...

I mean, lets get real here... Al Jazeera ain't the be-all-end-all of all truths...

Misinformation a component of war....Been that way for a long time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:36 PM

The Al Jazeera article lays the information it has been given in front of readers, indicating its provenance, and refrains from comment; which is the right way for a news report to handle a story such as this:

Brigadier General Qassim al-Moussawi, Iraq's chief military spokesman in Baghdad, said the women were mentally handicapped and may have been unaware they were on a suicide mission. "We found the mobiles used to detonate the women," he said, referring to the remote detonated devices that were used in the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Down Syndrome women used as bombers
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:47 PM

It wasn't the first time it was reported that people were Down Syndrome were used as suicide bombers:

AP 1:53 p.m. MT, Mon., Jan. 31, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's interior minister said Monday that insurgents used a handicapped child as one of the suicide bombers who launched attacks on election day.

Falah al-Naqib told reporters in Baghdad that 38 attacks were carried out on polling stations in Iraq on Sunday and that one of the suicide bombings was carried out by a disabled child.

"A handicapped child was used to carry out a suicide attack on a polling site," al-Naqib said. "This is an indication of what horrific actions they are carrying out."

He gave no other details about the attack, but police at the scene of one the Baghdad blasts said the bomber appeared to have Down Syndrome.

When there are child soldiers, when there are children (under 18) used as suicide bombers (see concern by Human Rights Watch, 2001), when bombs are hidden in baby's prams -- why are we shocked and appalled NOW by this story??

History is replete with examples: Vietnam, for instance, or the Hitler Youth at the end of WW2.