BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 16 - 10:57 AM

Field General Court Martials can only be convened if it is not practical to try a case in another court (military or otherwise) They were only used if the accused was on active military service overseas.

Given that the rising was over this was not the case and the due process of law COULD and SHOULD have been followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 16 - 12:31 PM

And the Wheatcroft business is but one example of many.

If it walks like a duck........

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:55 PM

No Greg, that is the only example, and it there is no dishonesty in it.
Steve,
It just so happened that I'd read that Guardian article just before Keith misrepresented it so grossly.

And it just so happened that I had quoted the disputed passage in full, and provided a link to the whole article.

Rag,
When one contributor claims from the rooftops that there are 3 criticisms of a book when in reality is in fact one criticism of a book, which that contributor then claims to be criticisms of that author works, it has to be pointed out.

Your accusation about me is mistaken Rag.
Here is what I actually said,
"So three examples given of all the Irish historians who criticise his work."

I did not, and do not lie.

Jim,
"Jim's knowledge has been shown to be wrong"
Where and by whom

Jim, you denied that the Home Rule Act had been passed
I showed that you were wrong.

You also challenged the fact that the people supported British forces not the rebels.
I showed that you were wrong.

You have not put up a single historian to back your case,

yes I have.

you have refused to respond to and of the points made other than to repeat your inaccuracies.

If that is true, say what these points are and I will answer them.
I have asked you to do this many times.
What stops you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:51 AM

But does martial law justify tyranny, Teribus? political executions?

I think that in the eyes of the world, the execution of the Irish rebels of 1916, was just wrong. Britain simply had no need to do that.

-Joe-
I agree Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:17 PM

Rag,
You said all three were criticisms of the 1916 The Mornings After.

I did not.
Here is what I actually said,
"So three examples given of all the Irish historians who criticise his work."

Jim,
You claimed,
"By the way - you said the Easter Rising was substantially covered by all books on WW1."

I did not say any such thing.

I said,
"Rag, it is true I do not read books on Irish history, but I am very well read on the period 1914-1918 which of course includes the rising."

I stand by that.

I suggest that you all stop trying to smear me with false claims of lying and just discuss the issues.
Anything else to say about the rising, or are you desperate for any diversion from a difficult subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:20 PM

Agreed here also. It's so easy to defend actions because they were of their time. Or because they were just following the law, or just following orders. Where have we heard that one before...

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:26 PM

Do you also condemn the execution of Irishmen by other Irishmen in the civil war, either by firing squads or just shooting prisoners out of hand.

"these men (Free State Army)showed no mercy in their dealings with anti-treaty forces. "They were far worse than the Black and Tans" asserts Dan. "They murdered nineteen republican prisoners at Ballyseedy Cross, Countess's Bridge and elsewhere in Kerry in three days. The Tans never did anything as bad as that", he says. "It was
very easy to get killed at that time", remembers Dan." "

Dan was an IRA volunteer.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:31 PM

Yes, I condemn all war crimes. Would that you did the same apropos of your Israel hobby horse. As in the other thread, I won't call you a hypocrite, but you do sound awfully like one at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:56 PM

Teribus says: What tyranny? Had the men executed in 1916 done anything like that in the USA, while the USA was at war their feet would not have touched the ground on the way to death row and the execution chamber - the US has executed a man (Brown) for organising armed resistance to slavery and one man (Mumford) for simply tearing down the union flag during the civil war.

Teribus, I have no doubt that the US has been one of the most tyrannical nations in the world, especially in its political use of capital punishment. Don't think that my being an American, implies that I have any support for capital punishment, armed civilians, or for the intolerance that is endemic in our society. And there is no doubt that the U.S. has a long and sordid history of imperialism that rivals that of the U.K.

And the fact that the US has long claimed a right to capital punishment, does not justify England doing the same. Both are wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 16 - 04:10 PM

Hmmmmmmmm Some pertinent posts seem to have been deleted I wonder why?

---

Don't see any recent posts deleted, Raggytash. Maybe they didn't "take"? I'm still authorized by Max to protect this thread from excessive moderation. If it's on topic, it's protected.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 16 - 04:47 PM

" I have no doubt that the US has been one of the most tyrannical nations in the world, especially in its political use of capital punishment."

At the same time Joe it has been the most steadfast supporters and defenders of freedom the world has ever known.

Now simple answer to a simple question, and from you Joe, unlike others on this forum I actually expect an honest reply:

There were two accounts posted regarding Thomas Kent - which account was the most complete whose was the most factually honest? Answer please you have sat on the fence for long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 16 - 04:52 PM

"Field General Court Martials can only be convened if it is not practical to try a case in another court (military or otherwise)"

Ah Raggy definitely not a legal expert then, so in future please do not lecture us on legal matters.

Field Courts-Martial are one thing.

General Courts-Martial are another thing entirely.

Now toddle off do some googling and then come back and tell us all the difference.

If you need a compass I'll lend you one.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 16 - 05:02 PM

I would suggest Terrikins that you do some reading I am correct in my post.

If you would like further reading try having a look at the following:

"Lastly, there was the Field General courts-martial, which could only be convened if the accused was on active service or was stationed overseas and it was therefore not practicable to try him in any other military court"

Given that other options were freely available after the surrender of the rising General Maxwell COULD and SHOULD have taken them.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 06:34 PM

"At the same time Joe it has been the most steadfast supporters and defenders of freedom the world has ever known."

Really? If only we could ask the tens of thousands of innocent civilians and their descendants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki what they think of the US support of their freedom. Or the people of Iran in 1953 as the US undermined the democratically-elected government in ruthless pursuit of its oil interests. Or the people of Guatemala who had a vicious dictator imposed by the US, resulting in a quarter of a million deaths. Or the people of Indonesia who were subjected to mass slaughter as the US provided aid to the right-wing military in their "communist purge." Or the people of Chile whose democratically-elected government was deposed by the CIA, resulting in decades of Pinochet's mass murder. Or the undermining for years of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, because they were inconveniently leftie, by the CIA. Or the propping up of military dictatorships in God knows how many countries, let's just mention Spain, Portugal and Egypt. Or nearly pitching us into WW3 with extra nuclear teeth, or making us live in fear of Armageddon for three decades. Not to speak of their unconditional military support for Israel, the most belligerent nation on earth, in their mistreatment and repression of Palestinians. Unconditional? Sure. In the land of the free, any president or other politician who briefs against Israel is toast, as they are if they dare brief against the gun lobby or the multinationals. Yeah, defenders of freedom. Very limited freedom in sight, democracy turned into a laughing stock. I mean, what planet are you actually on?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 16 - 08:58 PM

I tend to agree with Steve Shaw, although I might have a more moderate tone....

Teribus asks for my solid opinion about the Thomas Kent arrest and execution. The Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) raided the Kent home on 22 April 1916, after the Easter Rising. I think it's clear that Thomas Kent had good reason to believe that he would be apprehended and executed. In the course of this event, Kent killed an officer of the RIC; and he was subsequently charged with murder and executed.

Teribus, if the RIC had not raided Kent's home, no RIC officers would have been killed. One the raid happened, Kent had every reason to believe that his own death was inevitable...and history proved that to be correct. Sorry, but I can't place any blame on Thomas Kent.

On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that by 1916, the English were the "bad guys." In many ways, it seems that they got stuck between a rock and a hard place, and would much rather not have been involved in this situation at all. However, it appears to me that the local British commanders tended toward extremism, and they got the British into a situation where the British didn't really want to be.

And thus the tragedy.

Raggytash complained above about "pertinent posts" being deleted. I have a link that allows me to look at all the messages in a thread, including the deleted ones. I did that, and spent half an hour reviewing every deleted message. The only messages that were deleted, were the one that made no mention of the Easter Rising (posts like the ones from Steve Shaw and Greg F and HiLo and Dave the Gnome that were only meant to goad on the nastiness, without saying anything about the subject at hand). I did undelete one post from ollaimh. It was a little crazy, but it was on topic. Otherwise, the only messages in this thread that were deleted, were ones that had nothing at all to do with the Easter Rising.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 01:41 AM

Just to second Joe's observation above that "I tend to agree with Steve Shaw, although I might have a more moderate tone..."

Don't always agree with Steve, but he seems to have nailed the main points in this instance. The US are our friends and allies, to be sure; but they do have a lamentable tendency to overreact and bully.

≈M≈

Though would add that "Israel, the most belligerent nation on earth" may be a bit hyperbolical. I am sure one could think of a few worthier candidates for the title (N Korea? Argentina? some entities of sub-Saharan Africa?), even tho I agree that "their mistreatment and repression of Palestinians" is indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:36 AM

"The Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) raided the Kent home on 22 April 1916, after the Easter Rising. I think it's clear that Thomas Kent had good reason to believe that he would be apprehended and executed."

If only the British had acted as advised by the Naval Intelligence on the 22nd April 1916 and rounded up all the leaders then there would have been no rising. But the date of the raid was the 2nd May wasn't it Joe? And the number of executions carried out of those held after the surrender on the 29th April by the 2nd of May 1916 numbered ZERO.

So tell me Joe why would Thomas Kent and his brothers have good reason to believe that that they would be apprehended and executed? Could it possibly be that they knew that as part of the reception committee for the German arms that were supposed to have been landed from the Aud they were guilty of treason?

In the USA Joe if an armed uprising occurred and it was thwarted are you honestly trying to tell us that the intelligence and law enforcement agencies would NOT raid the houses of known conspirators and supporters? The RIC had very good reason to raid the Kent house.

"One the raid happened, Kent had every reason to believe that his own death was inevitable...and history proved that to be correct. Sorry, but I can't place any blame on Thomas Kent."

1: The gun-fight that occurred was started by the four Kent brothers, their choice, the choice taken had consequences that the Kent brothers must have known. If you shoot at police officers they are most certainly going to shoot back - The fault here was entirely on the part of the Kent brothers NOT the RIC

2: The "inevitability of death" line that you have stated. Of the four Kent brothers, one died as a result of wounds received in a gun battle that they initiated - entirely his own fault, NOT that of the RIC, another attempted to escape after having surrendered - again entirely his own fault. Of the remaining two the person who shot and killed Rowe was tried, found guilty and executed and the other was tried and acquitted. The round up and arrest of members and supporters of the IRB and IVF from all over Ireland numbered 3,509 Joe - ONLY ONE - Thomas Kent was executed and he was executed not for offences under the Treason Act but for the murder of a police officer, a charge he was undoubtedly guilty of. I'd blame Thomas Kent entirely.

Now simple answer to a simple question, as you dodged it before Joe:

There were two accounts posted regarding Thomas Kent - which account was the most complete and whose was the most factually honest? Answer please?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:58 AM

"Lastly, there was the Field General courts-martial, which could only be convened if the accused was on active service or was stationed overseas and it was therefore not practicable to try him in any other military court" - An apparent quote from somewhere cut-n-pasted by Raggy - who expects it to be taken as gospel. Unfortunately Raggy:

1: No such animal as a Field General Courts-Martial.

2: You have a Field Court-Martial whose sentencing powers are limited with fewer officers sitting.

3: Then you have a General Court-Martial which is the highest court in the armed forces

Given that other options were freely available after the surrender of the rising General Maxwell COULD and SHOULD have taken them.

Care to tell us all just exactly how General Maxwell KNEW that the rising was definitely over in the week to ten days after the 30th April Raggy. Were there IRB and IVF units still at large elsewhere in Ireland at this time? 20x20 hindsight is a great thing isn't it Raggy, unfortunately it is not available at the time when things are happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:04 AM

I suppose the main protagonists unconditionally surrendering and being in custody was a bit of a clue Terrikins even to someone such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:19 AM

Although it is not my responsibilty Iwould like to apologise to the irish for the behaviour of the british during the easter rising, and the subsequent later behaviour of the black and tans.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:03 AM

I think for me that could be extended back to 1170AD

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:10 AM

You wear your "victimhood" like a shroud Raggy - enjoy.

GSS - meaningless apologies assuage nothing, it does not alter anything one iota.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 04:19 AM

Au contraire.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 16 - 06:37 AM

Teribus says: There were two accounts posted regarding Thomas Kent - which account was the most complete and whose was the most factually honest? Answer please?

Joe's answer: I found your account and said what I thought about it. It seemed to be factual, with a pro-British slant. And it was interesting. I didn't find the other account. It must be in there someplace, mixed in with all the accusations from both sides that people are lying, but I didn't see it. And frankly, I don't have any reason to want to compare posts from two people. I read your post as you asked me to.

You people are really going to have to stop trying to prove each other to be liars. In the sport of boxing, they call it "infighting," boxing closer to an opponent than at arm's length. When a boxing match gets to that point, the referee has to break it up because the fight is going nowhere.

I don't really have a dog in this race. I'm interested in the subject and I want to learn about it. I want to know all perspectives, and I'm quite sure there was right and wrong on both sides of the issue. Since my favorite grandmother was Irish, I have been told since I was young that the British had no business being in Ireland, ever. My other grandmother was French Canadian. She didn't have an opinion on the matter.

But, despite my ancestral inclinations I AM open to hearing people who can come up with an explanation why it would be proper for the English to have a presence in Ireland. It would be interesting to hear such an explanation.

I'm still inclined to think that the Easter Rising was a tactical error on the part of the Irish rebels. It appears to me that Home Rule had been approved by Parliament, and was soon to become a reality. If that was the case, what sense did it make to organize this "Rising" that cost the Irish the lives of so many of their own people? Maybe somebody answered that question, and maybe it got lost amidst all the accusations of lying.

And on the other side, why did the British, who seemed to have the upper hand at the time, feel compelled to execute the rebels and make martyrs of them? That action, whether justified by law or not, made the British look like the cruel tyrants that they did not want to appear to be. So, again, another deadly tactical error that I just can't understand.

These are the things I want to learn in this thread. I really don't want to see all these accusations of lying, and these frantic searches to prove somebody said something two days ago and is saying something different now. All these silly accusations are what turn our threads into battlefields, and they are incredibly petty.

I have worked hard to keep this thread open, mostly by insisting that messages stay on topic. But if you people are going to keep up the lying accusations for another day, I'm going to have to close it, and I won't allow another discussion on the Easter Rising until I'm sure the current battle has calmed down.

Thank you.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 16 - 06:48 AM

Oh, and Teribus, you said: The round up and arrest of members and supporters of the IRB and IVF from all over Ireland numbered 3,509 Joe - ONLY ONE - Thomas Kent was executed and he was executed not for offences under the Treason Act but for the murder of a police officer, a charge he was undoubtedly guilty of. I'd blame Thomas Kent entirely.


What about the 15 who were executed by firing squad at Kilmainham Gaol between 3 and 12 May? I don't understand why they don't fit into your count. Weren't they just as dead as Kent was?

And wouldn't Kent have known that the others had been arrested and were likely to be executed?

In the court of world opinion, Britain would have gained much, if it had only refrained from executing these people. Instead, it created martyrs and lost its case completely.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 06:55 AM

Michael, Argentina, to my knowledge, merely tried to take back some small islands that we once took from them, and North Korea, for all its talk, does not attack other sovereign territories. Just thought I'd mention it. Not on-topic, but it did pop up and it's still running. No goading, just sayin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:06 AM

One of the ongoing problems is the "misinformation" that is often cited. For instance one poster suggested that Tim Pat Coogans book "1916 The Mornings After" had only sold just over 8,000 copies. What they omitted to say was that the book had been in print for a little over 2 months when the figures were compiled. They also omitted to say the Diarmaid Ferriters book (A Nation Not A Rabble)on the same subject had sold just 1,711 copies having been published some 8 months prior to Coogans and I suggest they may have got their figures from a article on Independent IE the headline of which read "COOGAN BLOWS FERRITER AWAY IN EXPLOSION OF 1916 BOOKS"

They also omitted to say there had been an ongoing feud between the two writers dating back to (I think) 1993.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 12:44 PM

That was me Rag.
You referred to Coogan's book as a "best seller" as if one of the reviewers had so described it.
I have always described Coogan's work as populist. It outsells the work of actual, academic hisrorians mainly by appealing to anti British prejudice.

The figure of 8000 was given in the review, which also said that sales of all 1916 books had been disappointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 16 - 12:56 PM

Joe,
In the court of world opinion, Britain would have gained much, if it had only refrained from executing these people. Instead, it created martyrs and lost its case completely.

I agree.
It brought the Irish people to finally side with the rebels.

Perhaps the British should have foreseen that and politicians intervened sooner to stop it, but consider the context.
Britain, including Ireland was in a terrible war and suffering casualties on an historically unprecedented scale.
Irish volunteers included.

Not an excuse bout an explanation.
What explanation is there for the executions of the civil war?
In what sense do the rebels have the moral high ground?

why it would be proper for the English to have a presence in Ireland.

Why is it proper for Scotland and France to be part of the UK?
It has just come down through history in that way, and will change as soon as the people of Wales and Scotland want it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:04 PM

"It outsells the work of actual, academic hisrorians mainly by appealing to anti British prejudice" (PS your error in the spelling)

Considering you haven't read either "1916 The Mornings After" or "A Nation Not a Rabble" would you care to justify that statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:08 PM

"why it would be proper for the English to have a presence in Ireland.
Why is it proper for Scotland and France to be part of the UK?
It has just come down through history in that way, and will change as soon as the people of Wales and Scotland want it to"

The people of Ireland had wanted change for over a hundred years. Read some history ..............PLEASE!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 02:14 PM

Oh incidentally I made no reference to a named poster. However someone always wants to be the centre of attention. ME ! ME ! ME!

Is it any wonder that some people get p****d off with this.

You will note, HOPEFULLY, that again I didn't mention a name.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:07 PM

I too, Steve, do not wish to perpetuate this drift unreasonably. But feel bound to ask which/whose "sovereign territory" do you claim Israel to have attacked? Any territories they may have attacked that I can call to mind (tho their military activities are mainly arguably defensive) are of disputed sovereignty: so is not calling them "sovereign territories" under attack a fine example of the fallacy of petitio principii, commonly called 'begging the question' — "providing what is essentially the conclusion of the argument as a premise" - Wikipedia?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:12 PM

The Queen acknowledged the "sad and regrettable" mistakes of Britain's troubled relationship with Ireland as she made one of the most important speeches of her reign in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:13 PM

Hello Michael, Nice to hear from you. Was this the wrong thread perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:56 PM

Michael, to be brief. Sinai and Gaza (Egypt), Golan Heights (Syria), West Bank (Jordan), Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 08 May 16 - 07:58 PM

Here goes. I've recently read two books on the courts martial, and they complement each other.

"The Secret Court Martial Records of the Easter Rising" by Brian Barton, published by The History Press, ISBN 978 0 7509 5063 3
gives a good historical account of each court martial in turn, with plenty of narrative detail on the events leading up to it.

Easter Rising 1969 - The Trials, by Seán Enright, published by Merrion, ISBN 978-1-908928-37-5, gives a more summary historical account but focuses more closely on the legality (or otherwise) of the trials and executions.

Enright qualified as a barrister (attorney) in both the UK and Ireland and is now a circuit judge. From his book it is clear that the legal process was very shoddy and designed to ensure that "the ringleaders" could be shot with some aura of legality. In spite of requests for the court records, the British Government concluded that they were on such shaky legal ground that publishing them would be an embarrassment. The government files on the courts martial and executions were kept secret far beyond the normal period, and in some cases documents were removed from them.

There were also inconsistencies in how some 90 death sentences in all were executed or commuted - in a nutshell, the earlier you were tried, the more likely you were to be shot. None of the officers sitting as judges had any legal knowledge or experience, and the officer sent as legal advisor on Maxwell's staff was an admiralty barrister (a specialist in commercial shipping lawsuits, not military or criminal law), a second lieutenant commissioned just a few months previously and not on the Judge Advocate General's staff. The defendants were denied legal representation, and it was left to the prosecuting officer (a barrister who served in uniform during the Rising as he was a member of Trinity College Officer Training Corps) to help some of them prepare their defence in the few minutes he had with them before the trial. The requirement to have the proceedings and sentences reviewed by the Judge Advocate General was ignored.

By way of comparison, four British soldiers were charged with murder for their actions during the Rising: they were given legal assistance and tried by full General Court Martial with the protection of a Judge Advocate.

Regarding the Cork Kent family, no evidence was offered as to who fired the fatal shot. William was apparently acquitted because an RIC officer gave him a good character reference at the trial.

For the record, Enright consistently uses the term Field General Court Martial or its abbreviation FGCM.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 16 - 01:52 AM

Rag, your unnamed poster,For instance one poster suggested that Tim Pat Coogans book "1916 The Mornings After" had only sold just over 8,000 copies.

I was the only poster who did that, so of course you meant me.
Spelling.
You know I can spell "historian."
I typed "hisrorian."
Note on a standard keyboard R and T are together.
It was just a typo.

You desperation to get something on me is making you look ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:22 AM

The poster doesn't actually matter the contents of the post do.

In 10 months Ferriters book sold 1,711 copies or 171 a month. Coogans book sold 8,000 in two months thus 2,000 per month a difference of some 2,300 percent, or 23 books to every one of Ferriters.

Taking this into account AND the long running feud between the two writers it is unlikely that Ferriter wrote a reasonable critique of his rival.

In fact Ferriters review was called "the bitchiest review of the year" on Politics.ie.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:44 AM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - 08 May 16 - 07:58 PM

Thanks for your post, but three points:

1: Enright does not appear to have taken the declaration of martial law into account. Nor does he seem to have taken into account that there was a war going on at the time which undoubtedly put a strain on what the military may have, or may not have, been able to do under normal peacetime conditions.

2: There is no such thing as a Field General Court Martial and to state the blindingly obvious just because someone consistently uses a term or an acronym does not make it correct. There are major differences between a Field Court Martial and a General Court Martial, he apparently even noticed them himself according to your cut-n-paste.

3: " None of the officers sitting as judges had any legal knowledge or experience," - Cannot for the life of me understand why a qualified and experienced barrister and Circuit Judge would comment on that, as that remains to be the case to this day at any Court-martial. After all I would not expect anyone who knows anything about the Irish or British legal system to comment as follows:

" None of the people sitting as members of the jury had any legal knowledge or experience,"

The Officers or NCOs who make up the panel (number varies between three and seven - look up differences between a Field Court Martial and a General Court Martial) do NOT sit as Judges that role is taken by the Presiding Officer of the Court-Martial or the Judge Advocate General. The person acting on behalf of the accused is known as "The accused's friend" and even in my day that, nine times out of ten, was the accused's Divisional Officer or one of his friends who was prepared to act on his behalf (No legal training required), if you had the sense to do so you, as accused, could personally elect to engage the services of a civilian barrister who was familiar with military law ( A good QC normally would run circles round the duty naval prosecutor), there are law firms who specialise in this area.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 02:51 AM

The person acting on behalf of the accused is known as "The accused's friend" and even in my day that, nine times out of ten, was the accused's Divisional Officer or one of his friends who was prepared to act on his behalf (No legal training required), if you had the sense to do so you, as accused, could personally elect to engage the services of a civilian barrister who was familiar with military law ( A good QC normally would run circles round the duty naval prosecutor), there are law firms who specialise in this area.

You may remember Terrikins that the leaders were not allowed a defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:07 AM

Teribus, even the pillar of the uk establishment, Queen liz 2, has apologised to Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:11 AM

Joe's answer: I found your account and said what I thought about it. It seemed to be factual, with a pro-British slant. And it was interesting. I didn't find the other account.

You probably didn't look very hard for it – try

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:12 AM

An additional point has to be answered is the fact that those chosen for execution and imprisonment were often selected randomly by officers who had never seen those particular rebels, but judged them to be culpable on the spot.
At least one of those executed had not taken part in the Rebellion and was not even in Dublin.
"Thomas Kent: Born in 1865, Kent was arrested at his home in Castlelyons, Co. Cork following a raid by the Royal Irish Constabulary on 22 April 1916, during which his brother Richard was fatally wounded. It had been his intention to travel to Dublin to participate in the Rising, but when the mobilisation order for the Irish Volunteers was cancelled on Easter Sunday he assumed that the Rising had been postponed, leading him to stay at home. He was executed at Cork Detention Barracks on 9 May 1916 following a court martial. In 1966 the railway station in Cork was renamed Kent Station in his honour.
Jim Carroll

Notice any glaring omissions in that account Joe? You did state the following didn't you:

Joe Offer - PM
Date: 06 May 16 - 01:17 PM

Well, the discussion, though heated, continues to be interesting. I don't think anybody is lying here. Lies are false statements intentionally meant to mislead. I think people here are saying what they believe to be correct - even though it may be incorrect. Rather than respond with accusations of "lying," a factual, documented response would be helpful.

If the above post was not written and deliberately presented to mislead then nothing could be.

Now this:

Teribus - PM
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:57 AM

Thomas Kent - the whole story

(Tomás Ceannt in Irish)(1865 – 9 May 1916) was an Irish nationalist executed following a gunfight with the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) on 22 April 1916.
Kent was part of a prominent nationalist family who lived at Bawnard House, Castlelyons, County Cork. They were prepared to take part in the Easter Rising, but when the mobilization order was countermanded, they stayed home. The rising nevertheless went forward in Dublin, and the RIC was members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, Sinn Féin, and the Irish Volunteers. When the Kent residence was raided they were met with resistance from Thomas and his brothers Richard, David, and William. A gunfight lasted for four hours, in which an RIC officer, Head Constable William Rowe, was killed and David Kent was seriously wounded. Eventually the Kents were forced to surrender, although Richard made a last minute dash for freedom and was fatally wounded.

Thomas and William were tried by court martial on the charge of murdering Head Constable Rowe. William was acquitted, but Thomas was sentenced to death and executed by firing squad in, Cork on 9 May 1916. David Kent was brought to Dublin where he was charged with the same offence, found guilty and sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted and he was sentenced to five years penal servitude. Apart from the singular case of Roger Casement, Thomas Kent was the only person outside of Dublin to be executed for his role in the events of Easter Week. He is buried in the grounds of Collins Barracks, Cork (formerly Victoria Barracks).

Now oddly enough Joe I can see nothing pro-British bias at all in the above post of mine and I would be very surprised if whoever it was in the Ancient Order of Hibernians Division 61 of Philadelphia who compiled their list of "Noteables from the Easter Rising" could either.

Honest question – which of the two accounts is more factually accurate – in answering please leave your own prejudices and preconceptions at the door if you actually want what you stated on the 06 May 16 - 01:17 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:19 AM

Teribus, how are you sure that there is no such thing as a "Field General Court Martial? If that's so, then that would tend to discredit the information furnished by An Pluiméir Ceolmhar. Information that uses such an uninformed term, must certainly be of limited credibility itself.

The UK National Archives makes extensive use of the term "Field General Court Martial" in a section that provides records of courts martial.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/courts-martial-desertion-british-army-17th-20th-centuries/

That being the case, it tends to turn a tables just a tad, doesn't it?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:27 AM

Another pertinent point Joe is that FGCM were only to be used if recourse to another court was unavailable. That was not the case after the rising had failed and the leaders had unconditionally surrendered.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:47 AM

Joe Offer - PM
Date: 08 May 16 - 06:48 AM

Oh, and Teribus, you said: The round up and arrest of members and supporters of the IRB and IVF from all over Ireland numbered 3,509 Joe - ONLY ONE - Thomas Kent was executed and he was executed not for offences under the Treason Act but for the murder of a police officer, a charge he was undoubtedly guilty of. I'd blame Thomas Kent entirely.

You seem to be a little confused Joe, Out of the 1,800-odd people arrested and detained in the aftermath of the Easter Rising ONLY 90 people were sentenced to death and of those ONLY 15 IN TOTAL were executed - 15 people WERE NOT executed at Kilmainham between 3rd and 12th May, if you had bothered to look up and count them you would find that only 14 people were executed at Kilmainham. Kent was executed in Cork where he was arrested, tried and convicted for the shooting of William Rowe.

Sir Roger Casement was executed in the Tower of London and his death does not appear along with the others as he was arrested before the rising.


What about the 15 who were executed by firing squad at Kilmainham Gaol between 3 and 12 May? I don't understand why they don't fit into your count. Weren't they just as dead as Kent was?

No Joe they were all as alive as Kent was on the 2nd May. I will stand by my statement that from the thousands of people rounded up and arrested from various places outside Dublin in the aftermath of the rising ONLY ONE - Thomas Kent - was executed and he was executed for killing William Rowe an act that he was guilty of and an act that he performed entirely of his own volition

And wouldn't Kent have known that the others had been arrested and were likely to be executed?

By the 2nd May the Kent brothers would have known the following:

1: That the Aud, the ship carrying the German arms that should have been landed at Cork on the 22nd April that their group would have had to have transported to safety and stored had failed to get through.

2: They may possibly have heard about Casement's capture and arrest.

3: They would have known of the Rising and they would have received the order given from Dublin to stand down and not support the actions being taken in Dublin (The order that ensured that the rising would fail as Pearse wanted it to, and the order that betrayed every single man who fought for the nationalist cause in Dublin that Easter).

4: They would have known that the rising had failed.

5: They would have little or no knowledge relating to who had been killed or captured in the fighting in Dublin. They could have no idea what the intentions of the British would be on the morning of the 2nd May.

Had they simply surrendered on the 2nd May, 1916 all four of the Kent brothers would have lived - after all up until that point they had done nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 16 - 03:54 AM

"Teribus, even the pillar of the uk establishment, Queen liz 2, has apologised to Ireland"

So has T. Blair and a whole host of others including yourself GSS - What good has it done you, them or anybody else for that matter - the old hatreds are still there unforgiven and the old myths are still trotted out.

The apologies are like wetting your pants whilst wearing a dark blue suit - it momentarily gives you a nice warm feeling but nobody takes the slightest notice and ultimately leaves you feeling rather foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:11 AM

Thank you Joe - 09 May 16 - 03:19 AM - On FGCM I STAND CORRECTED with regard to the existence of the term - but still correct as the link you provided states on the differences in what I called a General Court-Martial and a Field Court-Martial. I can also honestly say that neither in training or during my time in the armed forces did I ever hear the term used, even with my own brush with the system which never actually made it through the door (the preceding investigation found no case to answer).

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:13 AM

"the old hatreds are still there unforgiven"

You know Teribus I visit Ireland on a regular basis and I have received nothing but kindness, generosity and wonderful hospitality. I could write books about the kindness and generosity. I have enough stories to fill at least two. On more than one occasion a licensee has cooked a meal for 10 of us and refused to take any money, I've had free Guinness all night on so many occasions I've lost count. I've been given paintings on two occasions.

However the most important thing I've been given is the time and friendship of some very wonderful people.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 16 - 04:24 AM

I think I'll let Teribus and Raggytash quibble about minutiae. for a while. You guys don't seem to be seeing the forest for the trees.

Teribus, my source said 15 were executed at Kilmainham Gaol. Your source says 14. My point was that you said over and over again that Kent was the ONLY ONE (your caps) executed, neglecting the 14 or 15 at Kilmainham.

I've asked several times what charges were made against those executed at Kilmainham. Somebody ranted about the charges not being treason, but they didn't say what the charges were. They seemed to think it was important that the charges were not treason, so I asked. Either I didn't get an answer, or the answer got lost amidst the silly accusations of lying. And really, I don't think it IS particularly important what the Kilmainham people were charged with, or what the charge was against Kent. The fact of the matter is that they were executed for some aspect of their participation in the Easter Rising, and they ended up dead.

And that being the case, Teribus, I see no defect in the presentation of the Kent incident by Jim Carroll. Jim's account was brief, and not garbled by unimportant factoids.

And all of this goes to prove my initial contention: that there are certain things in this event that are factual, certain things that can vary according to the reporter's perception, and many things that are just a matter of opinion that can cover a very broad spectrum. I think we all could benefit by considering this matter more broadly, understanding that there can be many different but entirely valid perspectives.

-Joe-