BS: Who will win the World Cup?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:53 AM

That was a great film script Liz - but I reckon it would make a pretty good country and western song too. I think the predictions of a Germany Brazil final are right. Turkey did deserve to beat Brazil the first time around, but I believe that Brazil can play a lot better (although they have not needed to yet). I also go along with the comment that the Germans always do just enough. Given that they maintain discipline and concentration against Korea, they are likely to score before the end of normal time. Anything after that, they could struggle. However, I anticipate that poor finishing will see the end of both Turkey and Korea. It is not a vintage Brazil side, but it looks like their year. I just regret that there is no one around who looks like being able to give them a real game. They have not scaled the heights. It's more a case of the other teams failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:14 PM

Such a shame that the Turkish fans are not as well behaved as the British have been this time round... in North London last night, a Turkish man was killed because he was celebrating his teams' victory and ran into some Kurdish guys who weren't so happy.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:36 PM

No game is worth insulting people - let alone fighting and killing over. It's despicable and inexcusable - the very opposite of sport. You will have to excuse me favouring a Brazil victory midweek, however. A Turkish victory would mean hours of arrogant young sods cruising past my house with their horns at full blast. That puts my back up whoever does it. If it was English fans I would feel an equal desire to hurl bricks at the cars!

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Den
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 06:13 PM

Mark, I might be pushing my luck there, but Germany have weaknesses in defence and I think that Brazil can/will exploit them. I'm hoping for an open world cup final and Brazil have been scoring goals. They are playing with a lot of confidence and assuming they beat Turkey (and I hope they don't) they will have Ronaldinho back from suspension to join Rivaldo and Ronaldo. Look out Oliver Kahn. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 06:49 PM

it always saddens me to watch ANY sport where a team is showing amazing skill and energy.....and then to discover some of the petty, hateful, angry, violent aspects that accompany it...(in BOTH players & fans!)....

I saw that game lost when a player drew a red card for intentionally grabbing the opponents shirt from behind....and I have seen serious kicking, elbowing, tripping and faking of injuries....all in a game where, unlike American or Australian football, contact is NOT the point!....after several world cups, I begin to see which cultures/teams are the most gratuituously agressive.

I watched Croatia 4 years ago play quite well...but lose my sympathy when they fouled and cheated at every opportunity. (they seemed to have one 'expendable' player whose job it was to see of he could injure a major opponent before he was sent off..*sigh*)

....as I said earlier, it is too bad when entire nations get their pride tied to a game..(Italy angry that the Korean guy had the temerity to SCORE against them!..Mexico 'shamed' that the USA won a game..)

...as you might imagine, I do NOT watch hockey!..*grin*

well, it would be interesting to see Turkey/Korea....but....

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 02:27 AM

If Turkey get to play Korea, then I for one will not be leaving my house for the rest of the week.... there are a fair few Turks and Koreans living near me, and although they usually rub along fairly well, when this sort of prize is at stake, then who knows what might happen!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 04:41 AM

With FIFA praising English fans for their behaviour in victory and defeat, maybe a corner has been turned. Irish and Scottish fans have discovered in recent years how much more enjoyable it is to go to tournaments and actually be welcomed by the locals, so perhaps now the English have caught on.
Mark -- don't worry about six-yard box and eighteen-yard box, they're regularly used by British commentators!
I'm hoping for a Brazil V South Korea final now -- old football order V new. At least the Koreans play to win. I think their enthusiasm, fitness and hunger have been amongst the high points of this tournament.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 07:44 AM

The German press has been full of praise for the team
of the USA.

As for the German team: "Germany? That's Kahn and the Pope"
"Germany becomes an Olligarchy" (Oliver Kahn is called 'Olli' by his teammates)
or Beckenbauer in his usual colourful language: "You can put them all, except Kahn, in a big sack and hit the sack with a stick - you'll never hit a wrong one."

One of these short-life jokes:
An English and a German football fan have seen the quarter-final games in TV on a Greek island and after some ouzos sit on the beach. The English fan sighs and says:
"Isn't it a shame that some well-playing teams who really know how to play football are now at home and others who can't play and who no expert with a bit of brain would have given even the tiniest chance of surviving the preliminary round are still in the competiton?"
"Yes", agrees the German, "I know what you mean, nobody would have believed Turkey and Korea to come that far."

"I'm speaking about Germany"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 12:24 PM

well, the object of the game is to score at least one more point than your opponent...not to be photogenic or exciting--and Germany proved they know how to win, even if they seemed to be defense oriented and dull...they got that goal when they needed it. *sigh*..

anyway, this cup proves that ANY decent team can win on a given day, given a bit of luck and tenacity. I would not bet LOTS of money against any of them, though Brazil is always a good place to risk one's spare change...

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 01:34 AM

Wolfgang, I'm glad to hear that the German press is praising the US team, because I think they deserve the praise. Now, I wonder what they'd be saying if the US had won... [insert silly little smiley face thing here]

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:03 AM

Yes, Mark, and they mean it. The German press does not as a rule praise whoever has played Germany. As for Paraguay, for instance, they mostly agreed that the game was not inspiring but that the better team has won. This time, they agree the luckier team has won.

Only two teams so far (of those having played Germany) have received unanimous praise in the German press, Ireland and even a bit more, the USA.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:12 AM

On the basis of the way the referees have been operating so far (eg in the Italy and Spain matches), I don't think that a handball by a German player would be ignored in the match that's just about to start.

I think there's a very good chance Korea will get through.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:26 AM

If now Turkey please could beat Brazil?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 09:45 AM

I really think anyone will have a problem with a Keeper as fine as yours Wolfgang. Either way the Brazil-Turkey match goes, I'm looking forward to a great final! Congrats on making it there!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 12:49 PM

I would like Turkey to beat Brazil too. But I don't think that will happen. Sorry Wolfgang but I don't see Germany stopping Brazil either. I hope that they will play an open final but I think Germany will try to defend leaving Klose to chase anything he can alone up front. Brazil I think will press Germany for most of the game and if they can hit their stride there will be goals maybe not the three I previously predicted but who knows. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:23 PM

Go Deutschland!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:31 PM

All right, here's a question for those of you with more experience and expertise in following international-level football. I only saw the second half of the Germany-Korea match (my alarm went off at 1:30AM but I went back to sleep and woke up an hour later!). If I had to choose one word to describe that half, it would probably be "uninspiring". Is that a fair assessment, or were there some subtleties there that I was missing? I'm not being facetious here. Having learned the laws and mechanics by being a referee for youth games, I'm trying to learn more about the style and structure of the game at the top level of play.

To that end, I really wish the ESPN director would show more long shots of the field instead of focusing on each individual player who touches the ball. It's the same complaint I have with the commentator, whose commentary often consists of naming each player who contacts the ball. Sure, the individual interactions are fascinating, but I know enough to know that that is only one level of the game. It's like going to hear an excellent guitarist play, and sitting through the whole concert with a telescope trained on his or her left hand. (There--I knew I could finally make this a musical thread!)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 02:40 PM

Wahhh, that sucks. OK, no Korea, so I hate soccer again. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 04:22 PM

Mark the game was fairly low key, the Germans were the better team, they played more of an attacking game than what they have previously been serving up. The Koreans were weak as an attacking force, I doubt that any of their players would make much impact in European football, as a team they played well above themselves in this World Cup. I would like to see Turkey make it to the Final, but, it looks like Brazil, although this Brazilian side are a long way behind their predecessors. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 04:42 AM

With the exception of Kahn, Germany has no player who can come close to being selected for the all stars team of this world cup. So they played what they can best, a system that allows the opponent only a few chances. The mastermind behind that system, by the way, is Skibbe, not Völler who plays the front man for the press. Skibbe was not successful as a club coach for the fans hated him. He speaks in too long but nevertheless correct sentences using long foreign words. In other words, he is an intellectual. But as the real coach in the background he is top.

Germany (in the past and now) has seldom played to please the connoisseur but they have the ability to make the opponent look bad. Often it looked as if the other team played at its worst in the game against Germany. The overall record is impressive: Germany did take part in 13 world cups since 1954 and 7 out of 13 times did come into the final. To explain all of that by luck would stress that concept a bit too far.

I had expected Germany to loose against Italy and later against Spain, but somehow these matches were not to be. In the matches that actually were played I had expected Germany to win. The players had that hungry look in their eyes. Now they look drunken (from happiness) and contented. I agree with the experts above that Brazil will win. I don't see Germany scoring against Brazil and though Germany has the best defense that will not be good enough against Brazil. 3 : 0, I'd say.

An additional reason is that Ballack, the only German field player who is able to do the unexpected now and then will be missing in the final. Ballack did either score or prepare two third of the German goals.

By the way, no doubt this time in the German press that the better of the two teams has won.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 04:48 AM

It is always fun to reread what experts had to say before it all started.

Here's what the Irish Times sport experts did write about the German team a few weeks ago:

Lacking in ingenuity and at times looking utterly confused, Germany are not the footballing powerhouse... After South Korea and Japan, Germany are the top seeds most likely to be evicted in the first round.

If you think they were far off the mark you should read what they did write about, e.g., South Korea: click here for all their prior assessemnts of the teams possibilities and strengths

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 08:41 AM

I have a quick terminology question. My kids asked me what the "caps" stat referred to, and I realized that I don't know. (You're never too old to learn something new.) Any help out there? Also, halftime in the Brazil v Turkey game, and it sure looks like Turkey is giving Brazil a run for their money? Could it be another upset? Although I doubt it, it would make it interesting. (Oops, Brazil just scored, never mind.) Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:32 AM

As we now know McGrath was the first to answer the title question in this thread correctly more than 14 days ago: Brazil, or whoever beats Brazil

We'll see how good 'Whoever' plays next Sunday. Germany and Brazil have never played each other until now in world cups. In 17 friendlies so far, Brazil has won 10 games and lost 3, with a goal difference of 31:18. This can give you an impression how I see the chances.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 10:25 AM

Blueslife every player that appears for their country in a game receives a cap. Some country's are more specific about how the player qualifies for a cap than others.

So there we have it the big game is set for Sunday. I'm going to still say Brazil by three as I predicted earlier. I only wish that this was a better footballing German side, they will certainly miss Ballack. I think Oliver Kahn is going to be a busy man. Or maybe I should say hope he will, not that I want Brazil to win but I want them to play with that wonderfull attacking flare. I'm not taking sides and I sincerely hope each team approaches this game with the right spirit. I'd hate to see another final like Brazil and Italy in '94 where it looked like neither team was interested in venturing out of their own half. So good luck Germany and Brazil and lets see a grand finale worthy of this incredible tournament. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 02:55 PM

Wolfgang, You are being too crictical of the German teams of the past, the sides Franz Beckenbaer played for could never be accused of being boring. Fritz Walters team of 1954 were far from being a dull side, I can remember Helmut Rahn thundering down the wing and God help the defender that got in the way, he was not alone in a fine team.,they conned the great Hungarians in that Cup by losing 8-3 in an earlier round but when the Final arrived Walter`s side were not found wanting. I can remember in that 1954 World Cup Germany beat Turkey 7-2, so boring dosen`t apply to those great teams. Sorry Wolfgang this present team despite defying all the odds and reaching another Final will lose out to an ordinary looking Brazil team. But I wish Germany good luck. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 06:43 PM

Maybe I'm just a naive Yank, but I wouldn't exactly call Brazil "ordinary". I agree they haven't been able to maintain a stellar game for an entire 90 minutes, and often seem careless, but frequently they appear (to my eyes) quite brilliant. Quite a few of them seem to be able to pass to a particular spot on the left boot of a teammate racing up the other side of the field. I hope this will be an entertaining final, and I think Kahn will have his gloves full.

Speaking of brilliance, I was fortunate to have had the chance to see Pele play, with the N.Y. Cosmos against the Philadelphia Fever of the old NASL back in 1970 (at Franklin Field), but I didn't appreciate the game well enough back then to really appreciate him.

I'll be taking a USSF Referee course this weekend, so after my knee gets better I hope to be whistling down those 14-year-olds pretty soon! I think I've learned a lot by watching these World Cup matches.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Den
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:16 PM

Good luck on your course Mark we need more good men in black...or yellow, or that awful lime green I've seen lately. Anyway good luck to you and whenever possible Mark inject a little humour into what you do, I've seen it diffuse many a potentially volitile situation. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 09:23 PM

Ahhhhhh, is the West Virgina team still in? My couzin Rufus's wife, Retha May's hairdresser's nephew plays short stop fir 'em... So I figured I'd ask...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 04:51 AM

Ard Mhacha, I agree that the quality of the German teams (I'm speaking here only about those that reached the finals) varied over the times. I personally think, the team that lost to England in 1966 was the best and most convincing German team (of 1954, I have only seen those 30 seconds that are repeated about once every month) and I think the German vice champion team of 1982 was the worst by far.

The fans have a good feeeling for that. Nobody wanted to cheer the 1982 team when they came back and the 1966 team got a rousing reception. The present team is better, in my eyes than the 1982 and the 1986 teams, but worse than all others.

Some statistics: From 1950 on, there has only be one final without either Brazil or Germany, in 1978 (and everybody who remembers knows that Brazil should have been in the final instead of Argentine), but the present final is the first with both team in. Brasil has won most of its finals by more than one goal (5:2, 4:1,...), Germany has won always by one goal (3:2, 2:1, 1:0). The closest victory was by Brazil ,however, in that incredibly boring 0:0 (win on penalties) against Italy in 1994 (worst Brazil team in my eyes). Brazil has won 4 of its 6 finals, Germany has won 3 out of 6. In friendlies, Germany has won 3 out of 17 against Brazil, the worst record Germany has against any team of the world.

If it was a best of five decision I'd give 95% for Brazil winning. In a single game, the outcome can be surprising, but I'd give Brazil a two third or even three quarter chance of winning. I'd say it'll be a one-sided game with a clear winner.

I hope for a less one-sided game, of course.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 05:33 AM

There, there, Bobert, just come right over here and this nice lady will take care of you...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 05:54 AM

Mark, This Brazil side is not a patch on most of the Brazil sides I have seen, this is not only my opinion but also the verdict from the comments of the World Cup TV panels. Remember they struggled to come out of their South American qualifying section, this was unheard of for Brazilian teams. Granted they have improved, but they are a long way from being brilliant. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 07:50 AM

The referee will be Collina (Italy). The best man they could choose.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who will win the World Cup?
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 08:49 AM

I agree some what with you Ard Mhacha but they had to qualify without most of their European based players. For many of the games they were without Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos and Cafu. Now they're some pretty key players to be doing without. I'm glad Collina will be the ref, he's crazy but a good ref. Den