The Key to All US war strategy

Subject: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

I have joted down a brief (head ,heart ,hands) war strategy elsewhere which may be employed a bit but the ultimatum to the world is sometimes hard to understand. The war is to be "limited only by our 'global' reach". What does that mean? What is the key to understand our War strategies and policies?

The best way to make sense of what at times seems too big to handle is to see it in the simplest possible light.

The Key is this; Nearly every cowboy western you have ever seen has all the elements of our war strategies.

Here is one for small countries (more to follow)

"OK Black Bart yer gonna eat lead" 'but i dont hava gun' The marshall throws one down on the ground in front of Bart. "Go ahead , reach fer it" 'I dont wanna' "Go ahead ya coward , I'll give ya a count to 3. One Two ThrBANG " Black Bart bites the dust.

Larger foes:

Were gonna get a posse...

When we cannot even definitely name the outlaw...?????

The storyline for this kind of scenario would be "The Sons Of Katie Elder". In this western we are not sure till half way through who the terrorist is even though the town kinda knows and is harboring the villain and his henchmen. John Wayne is the USA in this movie and gets his man while still trying to obey the laws of the land. Trying to obey the law costs him one brother and the wounding of his other two.

I am making no political statement here {well mebbe just a bit}, but mostly a change of pace from the horrific overload of TV. Humor is impossible during extraordinary times like these but is essential all the same. The broadway shows of NYC go on. The audiences still laugh. They need to laugh. Artists rise to the occaision as everyone else during times of war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "He's up thar in those rocks somewhere. You go around and come up the back while we cover you". 'But thats Indian territory back there' "Wouldja rather we walk straight up that mountain in plain sight?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe we kin just burnem out?" 'The winds goin the wrong way. It'll just come back on us. Now git on up thar and flush him out from behind. We'll head em off at the pass.' "oooOK"

"Ah dont care if they are friendly, Chief flamin foot's war party is down there somewhere, besides the only good injuns a dead injun."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Sheriff , there holed up in Injun country and the heathens said they won't handem over." 'We'll just ride in with our posse and takem' "Some of the boyz down thata way are too skittish to join up" "A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do, Were goin in" "We want Ben Laden Dead or Alive. Were gonna huntim down ,smokim out, and bringim to justice." George W. Bush Ye Haw Were gonna git every last one ofem. "Thats stretchin it Slim."

YUR EITHER WITH US, OR AGIN US

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:43 AM

I'll try to be with us , but I'd prefer a Guiness.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Marymac90
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM

Of course, these strategies only work in the movies, which were written to "teach a lesson" and end with a victorius situation for the "Good Guys", who remain good, even if they violate other's human rights, including killing innocent people. The "Dirty Harry" movies were all about how a good cop supposedly HAS to violate the rules to catch the bad guys.

"Eliminating Terrorism" is an impossible task. Terrorism is the act of people who feel like they've been unheard, misunderstood, unequal, denied justice, and otherwise powerless. When we kill a terrorist, 10 sympathizers will replace him in the ranks, and 100 more will become supportive. When we kill a non-terrorist, someone defending his country, 1000 countrymen will take his place. When we bomb or invade a country and kill non-terrorists, 10 countries will become sympathetic to the invaded one. This isn't WWII, with uniforms and fronts and territory you can call "ours" or "theirs". Did we learn nothing from Viet Nam?

The only reasonable strategy to take against terrorism is to work on the CAUSES of terrorism. How can we increase communication with the people we call "terrorists"? How can we treat them with even-handed justice--not just "Well, Bin Laden seems to be the top terrorist, and we wanted him for something before, anyway, so let's pin it on him". That kind of justice was called "lynching" in the pre-civil rights era (apartheid era) South.

There have been MANY occaisions when the US has sponsored and supported terrorism--that's what the School of the Americas teaches. Coups, assasinations, death squads, etc. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, "Terrorism" is the new unforgivable sin. Of course, stock brokers died instead of peasants, too.

I'm not trying to say that I think terrorism is ok, and we should just let it go, but I am trying to say that you can't just have a neat little operation and "remove it". And I am saying that we have used, and encouraged others to use many terrorist techniques.

Feedback is welcome.

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Strategies on the drawing board:

Deception at home and abroad may include ; Life size inflatable White House in the poor black secions of Washington DC. , Arab-English dictionaries and flight manuals that will TRIP UP the terrorist."I would like to rent a mid sized Ford Automobomb." "To increase precise turning and climbing accuracy apply the reverse thrust air brakes.",

Of course since ALL American journalists are now forbidden in battle the military will fill the void and supply real time digital representations of our glorius victories.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:12 AM

Mary I agree with EVERYTHING you have said but as far as your right to say it ... there is a growing fervor against such "unpatriotic" liberal , defeatist , Arab loving , flag spurning , flame baiting , anti USA , limp wristed leftie knocked kneed cowardly pacifist drivil rhetoric such as yours. Yee HAAAW boys lesgo gitem...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM

Donuel,

What do they say about more truth spoken in jest?

Sadly enough, people are not going to Broadway shows--The Producers, though sold out, often has as much as half of the theatre empty, "Rent" played the other night to only 70--"Bat Boy", which is a fantastic, off-Broadway show that is sort of a combination of "Tommy" and "The Rocky Horror Picture Show", had been packed during the summer, and will now be forced to close Sunday--as will a number of other shows. People are too depressed to go out--

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:28 AM

With a big enough disinformation campaign that Broadway is Booming there is still hope.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Yeah but..
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM

The real strategy for ending terrorism:

1.Nuke Israel out of existence. Then there will be no need for U.S. support of any kind to Israel and the anti-Israeli's will love us instead of wanting to kill us. 2.Adopt the most extreme, fanatical interpretations of Islam, then the fanatics will love us instead of wanting to kill us.

3.Do not come to the aid of any nation that is being threatened or invaded, then the invaders will love us and not kill us.

4.Retreat within an isolationist shell and ignore all affairs beyond your borders even if others ask your help or involvement, then there will be no reason for anyone to want to kill you.

5.Or, simply treat the entire world's water supply with mild altering drugs that prevent lust, greed, envy, aggression, and anger.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM

Donuel, you watch too many movies. Also be careful of varnish fumes. They can alter the brain chemistry.
Mary, they don't WANT to talk to us.
They want to KILL us AND anyone who supports us. If you will read bin Ladens fatwa you will see that he does not adress economics at all.
Your belief that all we have to do is sit down with these people and address their grievances is touching, and, in other cases might work.
bin Laden, however, objects to our very existance and, while you might be willing (out of some feeling of guilt) to commit suicide to appease him, I do not share your feelings. It has come down to them or us.
I'd just as soon it was them.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

Our dearest 'Yeah but', The irony of achieveing in reality nearly every one of your satirical points by way of escalation should not be lost on you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Troll , I have clicked the translation button at the bottom of your posts to no avail...they still do not make any sense.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Marymac90
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM

They wanted to talk at the UN Conference on Racism, and first we refused to send Colin Powell, then we walked out altogether!

If it's us or them, how do we have any assurance that those we kill will actually BE them? Or do we just take an attitude of "The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim"?

Maybe Afganistan has so few resources, they won't be able to mount a very strong resistance to us. But there are a lot of Muslim countries that would not invite us in to "clean out" the terrorists, or fall over if we threatened to invade them. And of course, the terrorists, wherever they are, are not going to respond by putting on uniforms, and meeting our troops on the field of combat. They are going to respond with MORE acts of terrorism. Then what?

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:02 AM

The real irony would be if anyone actually interpreted my comments as anything but satire in regards to the futility of finding an ideal solution.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: sophocleese
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM

Let me see, CIA trains/assists somebody in their rise to power within a particular Islamic grouping, in order for their help against another foe. The assisted somebody then gets out of hand and starts attacking the USA and/or friends of the USA. A president named after a plant reacts by talking tough, getting impatient with slower more thorough methods of peacemaking, and issues an ultimatum. Why do I feel like I'm caught in a time loop?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:27 AM

Whether or not some of us can draw humorus paralells of 'Blazing Saddles" or "Unforgiven" to the futilities of war - We got us here a whopper.

As they say you can't trade horses mid stream so were stuck with Sheriff Tumbleweed.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Awright, awright, all you boys settle down, here, settle down, just settle down here. You folks in town dint do nothin to invite this hyar range war into yore lives. Ah reckon I can understan that. But Sherriff Tumbleweed hyar, why he's steppin up to a problem, and the hard thing is, if it ain't stepped up to now, the next thing ya know it might be the blacksmith shop! Or the schoolhouse! These desperadoes are trying to run us off, and we won't run. Now, I say we back Sherriff Tumbleweed up until we done cleared out the outlaw nests in these parts and kin get back to normal livin, ranchin, schoolin' prayin' and occasional drinkin' down there at the Yall-Come-Back Saloon.

Ah say, we-all have cliches to live up to, an I fer one intend to live up to 'em. Naow whose with me on that, no wboys??

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:21 AM

Now thats the spirit even iffin itaint zakly right. Now whats this I heeerd about Doc Smithers tendin to a case o' small pox up in Mt. Pilot?

Didn't we burn all them small pox blankets we gave the natives after the injuns died off?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM

Troll: Why is it I get the feeling that the 'touchy feely' crowd is not listening to common sense, and obviously is not doing alot of reading on the subject they are so willing to criticize?

Mary: Have you read one thing about Bin Ladin? I really want to know... I have done alot of reading about Bin Laudin, his decrees, and the validity of his decrees according to islamic beliefs. Troll is very correct, he is not going to stop. He has declared a war against the West, particularly America. He does not care if citizens get killed. I also wonder if you watched the president's speech? I know that he had stated that this was not a war against Muslims.... but was against a handful of extremists that have killed thousands of innocent people. If we just drop this, let it go, walk off and play nice, will you take your part of the blame when the next attack takes place? When the extremists come back, percieving the US and it's allies as weak. what will it take before you realize you cannot ignore this threat? How many die before you decide to respond? Give me a number... they will not talk this out with us... Bin Ladin has made his stance clear, so have we...

Don: Other than the fact you dislike Bush, What is your problem with him? Petty little jabs and insults dont' really give your complaints or criticisms any validity. lets see what you dislike, and hear what should be done. Otherwise... this is just a place to bash teh president for you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

This here thread is for the lighter side pard. Iffin you want a book lerning thread ya goota go yonder. Amos seems tuvgoter right. Were jus a buncha cowboys here.

You see this here BADGE? This badge belonged ta Sheriff Jones. This is what were fightin for an all the tothers who died in the great bank fire.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Don. I didn't write it for you. I wrote it for the rest of the Forum. I knew you wouldn't understand it. But They did.
Mary, I realize they wanted to talk at the UN conference on Racism. They wanted to talk about the "racist apartheid state" of Israel, which state they have been trying to destroy since it was formed in 1948. That's hardly a dialogue that's going to go anywhere. The rest of the conference talked about reparations for something that ended in this country 130 years ago. I suppose the reason they didn't discuss reparations from Somalia is that slavery is still going on there. And, of course, Somalia is on the UN's Human Rights Council.
The whole thing was an opportunity to bash the US. Our Govt. knew it would be and that's why Colin Powell didn't go. To have sent him would have lent legitimacy to the whole farrago.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

Donuel... Is there an extra bar stool there for a New York based Uilleann piper who lived through McCarthizm once in his life and who feels one Joe McCarthy is enough for any life time??????????????????? Cheersm'dears Larry

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

InOBU; hopon up this stool pard. Maybe I'll throw a nickel in the jute box an we can giver a listen to this here LP "THE INVESTIGATOR"

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:01 PM

Larry , I reckon thars enuf material rot heer ta maka CD "Th'unmarked graves of Boot Hill"

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

Och Donuel! I just stopped in at the War on terrorism post, and realize there is as much danger to freedom over there as over here, so I better just get back to work singing truth to power. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

I think he said, The Sheriff is Near...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM

To the war zealots who think no one else reads or knows the danger of terrorism.

No one doubts the dangers. Most of the discussion revolves around what we can control - our response.

For an enlightened nation, our response in last nights speech was the most belicose ultimatum I have ever heard. For an Islamic nation to get on board now is an impossible sell.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:53 PM

Colin Powell is NEar?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM

Candygram for Mongo...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

troll,

I thought the slavery was in the Sudan? Or maybe it's both.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Both as I understand.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Mongo like candy.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

Let's be accurate MaryMac. Terrorism by MEN is the new unforgiveable sin!

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM

Don: Ok... what is your suggestion? How should we handle it? Honestly, I am obviously someone you consider a 'War Zealot' so i want to know what you would do. I assume that you are speaking from an enlightened standpoint, knowing the history of Bin ladin... not just what is out there on the internet, but the evidence that the government has. What is your position, and please defend it. Other than saying we must control our response, which we have, What is it that you would suggest if you were the advisor? I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I really do want to know what 'controlled response' to terrorism means. Seems to me that we have had a controlled response, or no effective response in the past, so what is it that we should do now?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM

Fantacy Strategy,

Employ principals of United States constitution to people outside its boarders. Equality, justice, rule of law. Continue to try to help but no more hidden agendas, tell Israel to make peace or they are on their own. Tell China it is their choice how they govern themselves but if they do not respect human rights then we will buy our toys and batteries elsewhere. Tell the people of America that peace, order and good government throughout the mid east is more important than cheap oil.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

If we told China we would buy our toys elsewhere, then we wouldn't have any toys a-tall! Or damn near, anyhow.

Speaking of Westerns, we need somebody like Tell Sackett on the case. Tell Sackett always beat the bad guys and got the chick in the end.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM

Enforcement by the military is the last resort not the first. When all political solutions fail all that is left is killing for your cause. When 90% of your citizens are dead from bio war there is no cause, there is no nation.

Without a Global tribunal to clearly deliniate who the enemy is prior to enforcement the war will be based on unilateral ultimatum and attack. Whoever the allies may have been in the Islamic world, once the first of their own are killed in anger, America will be entering into a progressively weakened position.

Detente can still be used as a motivation for potentially allied Islamic nations to clean their house of terrorists. Our ability to make war is not the question. Our ability to make peace was given less than a week. Stand up and be not afraid. Your patriotism may help you die proudly or you may live long enough to see a self declared victory. The time for a sensible response has already been side stepped, so fight on , write some war songs. Learn of some neighbors you never knew existed so you can hate them better.

One bomb in the holy shrine of Mecca by anyone mad enough to do it will mean a holy war ad infinitum. Engaging in a war with many fronts has been a mistake all Empires have made in the past. They are no longer around.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM

A retraction: The absolute worst case scenario for a combined bio nuclear attack on the USA would probably be no worse than 30% of the total population. St. Louis Post-Dispatch 9-20-1

ANTHRAX - Infection and symptoms: Anthrax is a livestock disease caused by Bacillus anthracis bacteria. The bacteria form spores that can live in the soil for decades. In a biological weapons attack, anthrax would most likely be spread as a cloud of spores. Such a cloud inhaled by a city's residents would create widespread flu-like symptoms, killing 80 percent of those infected within one or two days after their symptoms appear. for example

Anthrax - Incubation period: Once spores enter the lungs, anthrax produces symptoms usually within one to 10 days but may incubate up to 43 days. It is not spread from person to person. Anthrax has not been seen in humans in the United States in 20 years, so even one case could indicate an attack. - Vaccines and treatment: Treatment with antibiotics must begin before anthrax's flu-like symptoms begin. An anthrax vaccine is currently available only to the military in extremely limited supply. SMALLPOX - Infection and symptoms: The world has been free of smallpox cases since 1978, but some strains are maintained in laboratories. The former Soviet Union reportedly stockpiled large amounts of the virus for use in weapons. The virus is easily spread from person to person. An aerosol release of smallpox infecting only 50 people could unleash an epidemic killing 30 percent of those infected with the painful, disfiguring disease. - Incubation period: Smallpox may take up to two weeks to appear in infected people. The disease starts as a rash resembling chicken pox, but other complications may occur. Most patients die of severe inflammation. - Vaccines and treatment: There is no known treatment for smallpox. Vaccinations in the United States ceased almost 30 years ago. People vaccinated then may no longer be immune to the virus. The United States has limited stores of the vaccine, and efforts are under way to develop new vaccines. PLAGUE - Infection and symptoms: The plague, caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis, caused the Black Death epidemics that killed large populations of Europeans in the 14th century. Widespread outbreaks are now rare, but a few cases of bubonic plague still show up in the southwestern United States every year. A biological terror attack would probably involve the pneumonic form of plague and could kill up to 60 percent of those infected. If 100 pounds of Black Death bacteria was released over a city of 5 million, about 150,000 people would contract the disease. More than 35,000 of those would probably die. The Soviet Union produced massive quantities of the bacteria for weapons use. - Incubation period: One to 10 days after exposure, victims begin to show symptoms of severe respiratory and gastrointestinal problems. The disease can spread from person to person. - Vaccines and treatment: Treatment with antibiotics would be effective during early stages of the infection. No vaccines are available to protect against plague. http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=SIEGE-BIOWAR1-09-20-01&c at=AN

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:33 PM

GUEST, just a nobody... we do everything we possibly can to promote, protect, and preserve a coalition with as many countries in the world as we possibly can.

We work together with all of the countries in the coalition to come up with a plan to use diplomatic, law enforcement, and finanial avenues to isolate and starve the organizations who are responsible for the terrorist attacks. This includes holding banks accountable for any help they give to terrorist organizations by sheltering money for them.

We make absolute sure that we do not do anything to destabilize any countries that have governments who are friendly to us or who are willing to help us.

We learn to work with other countries as equals instead of acting like a father figure to them and treating them like children.

If there is anything that is going to save the US, it will be for us to learn that we need the rest of the world, and we need their help as much as they need ours. If we fail to learn this lesson, I fear that we are in very big trouble.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM

Have no fear. General Custer is in charge.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 PM

I hate to admit it but the actual scoudrel Custer is an ancestor of mine. The only thing that is the same between us is the hair. Gene Hackman is a cousin of mine so the next time you see him realize he is related to Custer as well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:35 PM

Well put, Carol. And Donue: thanks for trying to lighten things up. InOBU, McGrath, MaryMac and Sailor Jack still talkin' sense.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction... The chain reaction of evil -- hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness of annihilation.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Harry Whatsizname in Asimov's Foundation books:

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

--seed

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:44 PM

The angry man full of rage only knows the pain and the memory of life without it. There are no shades of gray for him nor should there be. He is a 2 dimensional line between good and bad, pain and memories pleasure.

The killer is cool calm and collected able to plan his next move in the 4 dimensions of time place and cunning method of operation.

The pacifist feels all the anger and pain of the 2 dimensional man but rises above just enough to live in a real 3 dimensional world and sees the alternatives beyond the straight lines of bullets bombs and missles.

Although all are hurt and scared by the killer, all people of all dimensions must work together to catch the killer.

Don Hakman 2001

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM

Don, Ok.. what political actions would you take. It is easy to say, but harder to define what actions to take. Please explain further what you would do. You have stated the obvious of using a global tribunal, and political means, but you are not really saying anything. What would you do politically? That is the question.

CarolC: Well put, however, I do have some things I wish to take issue with. We have tried to get a coalition of other nations. We have that coalition forming, and more countries are backing the US now than they did in Desert Storm. Working together with these countries we do what? Threaten Switzerland if they do not freeze suspected assets? What do we threaten them with? Can they retaliate by freezing our assets? It seems that it would change from a military action to an economic war. Sanctions have backfired, look at Iraq. Bribe countries to give up their terrorists? Might work, or we might give an influx of money to a country that will use those funds to support another bombing. Economic attacks through banks, embargo's, and diplomatic isolation can destabilize a country as bad as an all out military assault. I want to believe there is a peaceful avenue, but I fear that this will not be.

Just in general: I hope that if there is anything this country has learned, it is to change how we deal with our percieved enemies. Remember, WE created Bin Ladin. We founded and trained him to fight against the Soviets. We are not in a Frankenstien situation. How to destroy the monster that we had a hand in creating? And most importantly how to avoid doing so again. People seem to think that if we go to war, we will go in with conventional methods. I don't think that is going to be the case. I think we will at times, but I think behind the scenes will be the most frightning part of this war. The men and women who are out there, quietly waiting for thier target. Who, no matter what we call them, CIA, SAS, SNA they are still assassins. Truth is, I fully expect most of the fighting will be done quietly, and out of the public eye. Do I fear retaliation, God yes I do. I live a very short distance from a major target. The command center in Florida is a scary place to be anywhere near right now. My wife told me today that a car not 30 minutes from our house was found, loaded with explosives. Am I scared of military action, yes because I know I am near a retaliation target. But, right now, I am wanting to hear a peaceful answer that I cannot find holes in.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM

It is said I have not said anything. If you believe that to be true any further discussion is moot. If any meaningful political resolution could have been explored it too will be moot once the first corpse of America's revenge is televised throughout the world. Don Hakman

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

seed,

The Asimov quote is from "Foundation" and is made by Salvor Hardin. You are thinking of Harry Seldon, another character in the series.

How's that for useless trivia. (I was going to let troll make the correction as useless trivia is one of the few things he's good at. But any chance to spoil his fun......)

Regards

John

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Sorry you feel that way Don. I only asked for you to expand on vague concepts that you laid out. Political action... ok What political action? You have painted a good picture of what could work... but not how to get there. I guess that is what I want to hear, how would you go about getting us from where we are to where you are wanting to be. How would you get this tribunal, who would be on it, what rules would they follow? All legitimate questions. if you answer or not is up to you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:40 PM

I am not sure if characterizing the Muslim fundamentalist?s attitude as hate is entirely correct. (at least as a primary basis of motivation). While it is certainly there, there is a much stronger element of divinely inspired self-righteousness that has to be considered. How to change the absolute and dispassionate conviction of being morally and spiritually correct (that drives the hate and violence) is a conundrum that remains un-answered.

When a pacific response to something like the WTC attack is seen by the attackers as both a sign of weakness and as a validation of their belief in the moral and spiritual decay and decadence of America , then Dr. Kings? somewhat two-dimensional solution is unsatisfying as any kind of answer.

We may well be in a ?damned if you do, damned if you don?t? quagmire. At a minimum, we?re up to our arse in mud already. As such, we need to proceed carefully. At what point do we say: No more! Clearly we have a clash of multiple values: religious, ethnic, economic, cultural and historic. Some (perhaps many) of which are mutually exclusive. Reducing the complex issues to a Kings mantra may be emotionally soothing but seems realistically overly simplistic. What values, if any, should we be unwilling to compromise on? Do we pursue non-violence to the exclusion of all other principles? Is it enough that we hold out violence as a last, regrettable, resort to defend those values that are basic?

Regards

John

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

Skeptic, glad you were able to answer the "Foundation" question.
As for spoiling my fun, I really don't mind.
You have so few opportunities as it is.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

just a nobody. both Skeptic and I are in Florida. Gainesville to be precise. PM me and let me know where you are.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:06 AM

Just a nobody.

Yeah. Go ahead. PM troll. But think long and hard before you do. Remember, you have a choice. I, thanks to my mother and father, never got one. And by the time I was old enough to suggest we put him up for adoption (well, truth to tell I suggested abandoning him at the local landfill - pollution laws were much less strict in those days), it was too late. Bythen they had too much invested in him. Besides even Mother Theresa would have sent him back. So choose carefully and wisely. :-)

troll,

Oh, I have plenty of opportunities. But I don't act on them. Mostly out of pity and because of the repeated pleas from our mother to humor you. I think her exact words were "In the name of heaven ,just humor him so I don't have to lisrten to him whine".

You notice how polite I was when you screwed up about Somalia. Did I rub it in? I think not. Did I publically humiliate you? No!. As usually, these little acts of undeserved kindness and charity went totally unappreciated.

BTW, Hope you can get some sleep tonight. Hope I can as I gotta go in and push papers tomorrow.

Regards

John