What price the truth!!

Subject: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:18 PM

This will upset a lot of people BUT it seems to me that not enough people are asking questions about the institutions that control great areas of our life. Crusading journalists such as John Pilger have opened up huge cans of worms regarding the USA's manipulation of world trade etc. ; others have reveal sinister movements within Christiant Churches. And, most revealing of all, there are a number of books available out there which argue the case - very convincingly - that the Jesus Christ of the Bible never existed!!! Read the evidence before you start shouting!! And if you wont read the evidence.....

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:23 PM

Am I missing something here? What's the upsetting part?

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:44 PM

And? This is nothing new, and I fail to see what I can (or should) do about it.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:58 PM

actually i thought it was a given that Jesus did exist....whether he was the son of god though is open for debate....

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 05:01 PM

Why is it upsetting? I'm upset that people in power lie to us. That the people who run the media lie to us. That our teachers lie to us - or are just ignorant!! For example, there is an overwhelming body of evidence that clearly points to the fact that the story of Jesus Christ is a myth; a hotchpotch of bits of earlier myths, BUT rather than present/debate this info,. tv networks would rather show endless "In the footsteps of Christ" type programs.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: musicmick
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 05:29 PM

I take it that our Mr. Tunesmith is not a believer in the divinity of Christ. That is his privelage as a rational being. Why he feels a need to announce his lack of faith is, once again, his privelage. I, for one, do not think that Mudcat is an appropriate forum for his cries in the wilderness. Faith and abstract belief are such personal areas and so avid are believers and non-believers in their assurance, that this thread can resolve nothing, succor no one. I hope that Tunesmith finds a philosophy that can comfort and nurture him. I wish the same to us all.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 06:21 PM

Tunesmith, Dreaded Guest...they're all the same...blah, blah, blah...

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 06:49 PM

When the two major religions in the world today both accept the existence of Jesus (Christianity and Mohamedannism)as at least a prophet,and there seems to be a reasonable body of historical fact too What is Tunesmith trying to say?
We all know politicians find it easier to lie than tell the truth,and I am sure it was a media man who said Never let the Truth get in the way of a good story.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 06:53 PM

oh shit!! you're kidding right tunesmith?!?! i'm going to need do some SERIOUS replanning in my life now.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 07:35 PM

Well, gee whiz! That'll sure take the glow off Chistmas. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 08:34 PM

Therein lies the problem. The evidence is there to back up my statements but who will be brave enough to seek it out! The blind obedience of Christians is so scary!! I wouldn't buy a house without having it checked out by experts, but Christian don't check out the validity of their religion. Such an attitude is very dangerous. Don't forget - the truth will set you free.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 08:57 PM

Tunesmith, how old are you Honey? There is no Santa Claus. Never fear! Time will heal all wounds.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 09:04 PM

Annamill: now that does need some explaining!! A) I agree that Santa Claus does not exist- ( with you so far! )- and B) "Time will heal all wounds" I'm not sure about that! Unless, you mean that death ends everything , and I would agree with that. But some clarification on your part would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 09:07 PM

No Santa Claus? No Christ, I can believe...but no Santa Claus???? Next you'll be telling me that there is no Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. I know they exist because I see them on TV all the time in commercials. So there.
Why are we encouraging this nonsense?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 09:17 PM

SINSULL: Clarity, clarity, clarity PLEASE!!!- what are you saying. I've been as clear as I can be, but some of these replies! Please re-post and make your comments very clear.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 09:43 PM

tunesmith-you,started,2,threads,today,already,
and,theyboth,are,stupid!

john

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 09:56 PM

John, John, John, John - please, please explain!!! Saying my two threads are stupid is STUPID!! Clarity!!!! Say what you mean!! Why are they stupid!!!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 10:06 PM

Tunesmith:

You are completely correct, but there is no arguing intellectually on issues of faith and its concomitant convictions. This may take some getting used to, but it is a sad and solid truth about the minds of men. Most of the people around here who are capable of doing this wee analysis have done it long ago (we tend to be long in the tooth in these parts for some reason, with a few brilliant exceptions....). So I think that's why annamill was enquiring about your age. Raising this discovery to the level of Exciting News is kind of like re-opening an old discussion for many of us.

Authoritarian and dogmatic thought is always unpleasant no matter what its purview, but, on the other hand, most Christians are pretty tolerant and those that try to work the Real Deal really do strive to better things. So p'raps mutual tolerance is a good idea in most case...

Most of John's posts are kinda hard to understand, to put it mildly -- don't take it personally.

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 10:47 PM

Amos: I think you're wrong. I think the facts concerning Jesus being a myth are not generally known. You won't find them discussed on TV or radio. No, you have to go digging. Christians have been taught not to dig!! Not to ask questions, "Faith " is the thing. I have a number of well-educated catholic friends but they were not aware of the    " Jesus as Myth" argument. And who's going to tell them - the local priest!!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 12:44 AM

If there is no Santa Claus, then how did Natalie Wood get that house with the swing in the back yard? Santa Claus is as real as our sense of humanity and as vital as our ability to see beyond our experience.
As for the "realists", whose reality is limited by pride and prejudice, I pity their poverty. Man's grasp is exceded and expanded by his ability to dream. Religion can be a yoke but it can also be a tool of hope and wonder.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 01:21 AM

Let's be more specific, tunesmith...

Which exact parts of the Jesus story are you suggesting are mythical?

And are you familiar with the concept of allegory in religious tales and parables or do you feel that it all must be taken absolutely literally word for word?

As for "sinister movements within Christiant Churches"...NO! You can't mean it (gasp!). You mean to say that the Spanish Inquisition was not a social service organization devoted to peace and kindness? Well, I am shocked to my very core! :-) I thought that all church people were totally truthful, godly and perfect, and now you have got me very, very nervous (not!).

And the USA manipulating World Trade...hmmm...yes, I suppose there is a tiny little chance that something like that could be happening...sort of like the chance that politicians might sometimes be telling lies. Yeah. Could be something to that allright...

Oh, the angst! I shall not sleep well tonight.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 01:28 AM

You mean there are some people who think Jesus didn't really exist? I am shocked. Next you'll tell me there are people who still think the world is flat.

Alex

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 01:50 AM

I thought the world was dangerous place before I started this thread but now I see it is a lot more dangerous than I imagined. The robots are taking over. Again, I will refer you all to my first posting. Before you attack me, read the evidence. You could start with " The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:00 AM

There are such people, Alex, and it's a hoot hearing them explain it in scientific terms...

Most people believe whatever the other people whom they trust have told them. It all starts with your parents, and goes out from there to other authority figures in the schools, the government, the churches, the scientific community, or whomever you choose to put your TRUST in.

Therefore, most people's beliefs are far more arbitary than they think or are prepared to admit.

To become a free human being you must strenuously question and re-examine every single thing everyone has told you from the time you were old enough to walk...and then freely form your own opinion...and be prepared to revise it in the light of new evidence! This is something that I find most people are quite unwilling to do. They would rather not change.

And at the end of the day it is far less important what a person believes than what his basic intentions are! (helpful or harmful)

In other words, I'd far rather deal with a helpful, friendly person who is either atheistic or religious...than a hostile, dangerous person who is either atheistic or religious. Having a good heart is more important than believing or not believing in some religious idea.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:14 AM

What Bible?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,A. Gnostic
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:09 AM

A *religion* can bring relief to folks in times of stress, bereavment etc.
However, to this day i still don't understand how God can be on both sides during a war!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:00 AM

this tunesmith is obviously a freak of nature. we should kill him before he finds out more.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:56 AM

Tunesmith, if you don't see these sort of things on television or elsewhere, then I'd suggest you change the channel or broaden your reading horizons. Or are you suggesting that a belief system that includes "Jesus is a myth" (and yes, nonbelief is just as much a religion as belief) be officially sponsored and become part of a required public school curriculum?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 09:20 AM

AW, Nonexistent Jesus Christ! Tunesmith, if the Catholic Church discouraged questioning of its theology and/or administration (and what organization doesn't?), the Protestant Reformation didn't take place. Vatican II didn't happen. The current mess with pedophilia and other sexual abuses doesn't exist.

I attended Catholic schools from kindergarten through my bachelor's degree -- unlike you, who must rely upond "friends" I have personal experience within the system. My wife did the same, only her experience extends to her first Master's degree. Both of us have many friends among the Catholic clergy and laity. Listen to this statement and try to grasp it: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MADE A BIG MISTAKE -- IT TAUGHT THE LAITY, THROUGH THE EDUCATION IT PROVIDED THEM, TO *THINK*. TO QUESTION AND TO OBTAIN ANSWERS. TRUE ANSWERS, WHICH DID NOT COME FROM WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT WHICH WERE AND ARE OBTAINED BY OBSERVATION, RESEARCH, AND OTHER OBJECTIVE MEANS.

One result of the above has been a great decline in the number of priests and nuns. Another has been a decline the amount of money donated to the Church -- voting with the pocketbook, so to speak.

Whether I am a "practicing" Catholic is immaterial (and do not immediately suppose that I am), and my religious beliefs are, frankly, no business of yours.

I strongly urge you to get the non-existent hell out of yourself, turn off your Internet connection, and go volunteer in a soup kitchen or some other such activity. You might, just might, learn something about the world as it is, not as how you want it to be.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM

"...there is an overwhelming body of evidence that clearly points to the fact that the story of Jesus Christ is a myth" (Tunesmith, 22 Jun 03 - 05:01 PM)

Are you absolutely sure, T/S? If you'd said, "scholarship casts doubt on the veracity of all evidence that Jesus existed", I wouldn't have a problem; but what evidence that the story is a myth could there be, unless they've found and carbon-dated the "Diary of John the so-called Evangelist" in which he says "I made it all up"? (And no, I haven't read Freake & Whatnot: but do, pray, tell me of this "overwhelming body of evidence".)

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Sam L
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:11 AM

Tunesmith, I recall some fairy impartial discussions of the historical reality of Jesus. There's some pretty solid evidence he did exist, and some room for doubt. But according to the idea that Jesus left a gift of freedom, that there would be no miracles or proofs, I think the religion is actually supposed to be perfectly doubtable. The fact that other bits of myth and custom become attatched or co-opted isn't perfectly contrary to what happens with stories based on reality.

   There's also evidence that early christianity was much more diverse and in some cases more inclusive than appears from the aggressive strains that dominated history later. I wish I could remember the woman who had a book based on findings of other texts, some years ago. I'm not a heavy reader in any theology, but if anyone knows what I'm referring to, I'd like to be reminded.

    In the vein of your thread about Tom Paxton, I'd say that the detail in the New Testament about Jesus being unable to perform miracles in his hometown rings with truth. It would be a gifted mythmaker who thought to make that up from scratch. In the Koran the fact that there's no mention of camels adds a lot of credibility too, as I think the writer Borges pointed out.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:31 AM

To answer your question - And the thread title is a question and should have a question mark rather than exclamation mark behind it.

4 pounds 16 shillings and 4 pence. I don't know what it is in dollars or todays decimal currencies.

Is that clear enough?

Cheers

Dave the Gnowing...

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:48 AM

Yes, tunesmith, the World IS more dangerous than you had realized!

For instance, you have not yet even touched upon the danger posed by gangs of rogue hamsters. Avoid your neighborhood pet store, and do NOT venture out after dark!

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:50 AM

How did you smart people let yourselves get dragged into this old battle again?

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

We're not as smart as we look, Susan. Although there is a whole body of opinion that says we do not exist at all;-)

Cheers

John Paul Satre

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:32 AM

Tunesmith, you've got me thinking here, and there are some more things we could all stand to investigate, such as:

Did Elvis really exist? A number of very compelling books suggest that he did not, but was simply manufactured by a clever marketing outfit which has been getting rich and brainwashing millions of people ever since.

Did Reagan have a working brain? I doubt it. The country was effectively headless for eight years! Chew on that.

Do you exist? I frankly doubt it. If Jesus was here in the flesh he might be able to help us decide if you are real or not, and then we would know whether or not to post any more responses to this thread.

And lastly...a really thorny issue...did Robin Hood exist?

These are vital matters, don't you think? What price the Truth!!!?

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:33 AM

DtG-- LOL! Perhaps it is not the humans who are imaginary, but the permanence of whatever we mean in any moment by the catchall term "intelligence." I have suspected for a long time that it is transitory and conditional, if not altogether mythological. That could help account for the appearance of smarts despite functional indications to the contrary.

There's a funny word, mm? "Mythology." To study (as if one can know) what one avers does not concretely exist. Gonna have to work on that one. :~)

~Susan
(".... say you saw me passing through....")

There, now it's a music thread about the existence of Pete Seeger.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:36 AM

LH-- to respond on-topic-- a buck three eighty nine.

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:42 AM

That's expensive, Susan. Around here you can get the Truth for as little as $1.25 or a piece of a wiener (in the case of our dachshunds).

What is the Canadian dollar equivalent of "a buck three eighty nine"?

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:53 AM

Well LH, I'd tell you, but as Jack Nicholson so eloquently reminds us all, "You can't handle the truth!" :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 12:33 PM

Timothy Freke, the co-author of the book Tunesmith has mentioned, in an interview:

"The Christ story is the foundation story of our culture in the West," he said. "Having said that it's a myth, the next question becomes, 'What does it mean, and can it still be useful to us spiritually?' And for us, the answer is definitely yes."

These authors who favour an all-encompassing gnostic mysticism over traditional Christian faiths as your only source for non-existence of Jesus, that's most curious, Tunesmith.

As much as I am in favour of demystification of religions in general, the arguments of the there-was-no-historical-Jesus faction have always failed to convince me yet. In a variant of the 'let us take absence of hard evidence as evidence of absence' argumentation they show that each piece of evidence (non-Christian writers mentioning Jesus, e.g.) could possibly have another interpretation. That's about as convincing for me as the Biblical Archeological studies from the let-us-believe-every-word Christian faction. You start with a theory and then filter and twist everything you read to fit the theory. Flat-earth-type thinkers and believers whether they come from gnostic mysticism or a more orthodox (in the non-denominational sense) religion will not find me on their side.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 01:20 PM

Ah, but that's the rub, isn't it? To base a religion or one's religious beliefs strictly upon fact makes it merely a study or even a scientific observation. The basis of most (if not all) religions is on Faith, on believing something that you cannot prove. I am not a fervently religious person by any means -- I am strictly an ECH Catholic (Easter, Christmas, and Home-visiting-my-parents) -- but the life of Jesus (using the example I am more familiar with) can only be discovered to a minimal degree by "facts", since the time he lived was 2000 years ago. One of the stronger tenets of Catholic teaching is of his disciple, Thomas, who (as the story goes) only believed after physically encountering Jesus after he rose from the dead. Whether this actually happened can never be proven by fact -- period. But it is the faith that determines your view of this, either as a believer or as a "Doubting Thomas".

Brian...

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 01:25 PM

Wolfgang! I wish people would read messages properly! I said that "The Jesus Myteries" would be a good place to start. And, I would challenge anyone out there to read that book objectively and not start to question things. Feke and Gandy do present their info in a dramatic way, for example, who is this a description of ? :-
   a. God made flesh, the saviour and son of God
   b. His father is God his mother a mortal virgin
   c. He is born in a cowshed on Dec 25, Shepherds stood around
   d. He offers his followers the chance to be reborn again
      through the rites of baptism
   e. He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage
      ceremony
   f. He dies a Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world
    g. He roses from the dead and ascended into heaven
   h. His followers await his return as the judge during the
      Last Days
   i. His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal
      of bread and wine which symbolize his body and blood.
Who is this a profile of? The Greek god/man Dionysus who, of course, "lived" hundreds of years before Christ was supposed to have lived.
   Now come on.....

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:05 PM

"a. God made flesh, the saviour and son of God
   b. His father is God his mother a mortal virgin
   c. He is born in a cowshed on Dec 25, Shepherds stood around
   d. He offers his followers the chance to be reborn again
      through the rites of baptism
   e. He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage
      ceremony
   f. He dies a Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world
    g. He roses from the dead and ascended into heaven
   h. His followers await his return as the judge during the
      Last Days
   i. His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal
      of bread and wine which symbolize his body and blood."

a. Claimed by every religion, including that of the Egyptians (Osiris).
b. Claimed by many religions -- look it up.
c. December 25 was selected by the early Christian church in an attempt to offset the pagan Saturnalia. If JC existed, he was (the best historical thinking now goes) he was probably born in April or May.
d. Take a peek at the rites of Mithra.
e. And it is claimed that he also raised the dead, cured the sick, etc. Again, miracles are claimed by many religions.
f&g. These go together. Again, many gods are said to have died and descended into the Underworld, only to rise again to life. Have you looked at any of the stories surrounding fertility religions?
h. Yeah. Folks also await the coming of Odin, the return of Arthur (who may have been a Sun God, according to some theories), and for Drake's drum to beat when England is threatened.
i. Actually, the Catholic church teaches that the bread and wine is transubstantiated INTO the body and blood -- no symbols here! But if you want symbols, consider that wine is the "blood of the grapes" and that bread comes from the earth. If these are the body and blood of the godhead, then Christianity becomes a poorly disguised fertility religion.

Try reading the studies of the Jesus Group. Study the antecedents of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in the light of the religions of the Middle East. Look at the proto-religions of fertility. Note how the Christian church adopted and adapted the earlier religions of the Celts, the Saxons, the Vikings, etc. Then come back and talk to me about your hobby-horse.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:15 PM

The question is not, "Did Jesus actually exist?" The question is, "Was Jesus a walking, talking human being or an anthropomorphic allegory for the state of consciousness induced by large doses of psylocibin mushrooms?" The other question is, "Why do we need Jesus anyway when 'The Mother of All BS Threads' is well on its way to becoming a religion?" And the other question is, "Why am I posting this foolishness when I could be playing the guitar instead?"

BWL (Bird-brained Witless Loon)

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:37 PM

"Myth".

One definition of "myth" is "a story that is profoundly true."

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 03:56 PM

Rapaire, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Surely, nearly everything you say screams out, " Jesus Christ is a myth" , a cobbled together god/man story. If the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were around today, they would be sued for plagerism - and they're lose the case! There are none so blind as those who will not see. The bebunking of the Jesus story is sad. There is a lot to admire in the way those ancient writers put the story together, and , of course, what we are discussing on these pages will not make prime-time national tv. It's too hot, to disturbing.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:11 PM

Tunesmith, you are arguing with a certain rather fundamentalist viewpoint on the life of Jesus, that's all, and you are quite correct that a number of those ideas stem from (or are found in) earlier religions. Uh-huh. So? The Bahais believe that many Christs have come, throughout the history of the human race, and that Jesus was one of them. Every consider that possibility?

If you wish to deny the reality of Jesus, then you must also work on denying the reality of Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, White Buffalo Woman, and any number of other divine figures or teachers from the past, for whom we cannot presently find irrefutable physical evidence.

Why persecute only Jesus when there are so many others to go after?

It is quite possible that such notions as "virgin birth" are symbolic in nature (it could well mean birth from a spiritually pure individual, for instance, quite aside from whether she was physically a virgin). It is also quite possible that there is a divine component in EVERY human being, not just in remarkable cases like Jesus. That's what Jesus taught, but most of his followers are inclined to make him exclusive. I'm not so inclined.

Are you also aware that the story of the Great Flood is not just found in the Bible, but in numerous other ancient civilizations, who have all described it in their own particular fashion (with or without "Noah")?

There's a whole lot more out there for you to obsess about besides Biblical Christianity, my friend.

Perhaps the reason you find all those symbolic stories in the Bible is not just because they were borrowed from previous religions, but because they symbolize something intrinsic in life which always existed and has naturally found its way into many religions.

For instance: I believe I'm the son of God (but so is every other human male!), so what's wrong with Jesus being the son of God? I believe females are daughters of God. Okay? How do I define "God"? Life itself. All of it. How can I not be the son of Life itself? You tell me.

I believe that any time a human being makes a breakthrough in perception, realizes something fundamentally new, etc...he IS born again. I've been born again several times in this life by that definition. So have any number of other people I know, and they are not necessarily Christians.

I also believe in reincarnation...which is another way of being born again...and so did many of the early Christians. It is probable that a majority of the Earth's present population believes in reincarnation, so why not take that one on?

One is a physical rebirth, the other is a spiritual or psychological rebirth.

I believe that all living things are God made flesh...although they may not be conscious of it.

And so on, and so on...

Literal-minded atheists battle with literal-minded religious fundamentalists, and I watch both of them and just shake my head. Somebody out there has a serious lack of imagination, I think.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:19 PM

GUEST,Tunesmith, I believe that what Rapaire was pointing out is that your comment of 1:25 PM demonstrates poor research.

The basic religious structure into which the early Christians fit their beliefs was the common one in the lands surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. It borrowed heavily from other established religions, not just from the Greeks, and all of these had been trading belief and ritual back and forth for the previous thousand years or so. They later incorporated bits and pieces from the religions of Northern Europe. All of this is well known, and is covered extensively in any freshman-level Philosophy 101 or Comparative Religions class.   

Whether or not it is true or not is a qestion for each individual to decide.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:22 PM

I believe I read somewhere that records have been turned up of a Joshua bar Joseph who was crucified by the Romans as an agitator back about the right time. What may make this significant is that 1) Jesus, I am told, is the Greek form of the name Joshua and three of the four Gospels were written in Greek, the fourth in Hebrew (so what would Jesus' disciples have called him in Aramaic?); and 2) this Joshua bar Joseph had a bunch of followers who were avidly devoted to him. This, of course, was not unique at the time. There are records of about twenty-some-odd self-appointed rabbis who wandered the Holy Land either proclaimed themselves the prophesied Messiah come to save the people, or were dubbed so by their enthusiastic disciples. This Joshua bar Joseph was considered enough of a royal pain in the ass by the authorities that they hauled him in and nailed him up in the prescribed manner of execution at the time.

I make no claims regarding the accuracy of this find, or the divinity of this person, or if this is evidence of the historical Jesus, but if this person actually did exist, it would not be unusual for a body of mythology to grow up around him, usually borrowing from religions that have gone before. Unusual arrival into the world, the performance of miracles, and departure in an spectacular manner. These are characteristic stories attached to almost all religiously significant figures.

And a close examination of the basic theology surrounding most of these figures, once you strip away the smoke and mirrors, shows that they are almost identical in advocating a drive toward self-improvement, a deep regard for the welfare of others, and reverence for those things that preserve and protect life. This seems to be a message much needed by humans in general, and heeding and following it certainly helps promote the survival of the species.

The problem comes with the excesses of some of the more benighted and unimaginative followers who are so small of mind that they believe the metaphors expressed in the mythology are actual facts of reality. These people are called "fundamentalists." They try to lead their chosen religion away from those basic principles that give it real merit, and almost invariably give it a bad name, and if unrestrained, often commit real atrocities in the name of the god they claim to worship. Fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians seem to be the worst, at least these days. Fundamentalist Druids don't seem to be much of a problem, except, perhaps, to Weyerhauser.

Lotsa people, both pro- and anti-religion, get all tooted up over the trappings and miss the main point. I believe this is what ails GUEST,Tunesmith.

By the way, McGrath is right. Myth is metaphor. It illustrates a point. Not factual. But true.

End of sermon.

Don Firth