Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament

Subject: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: GUEST,Roberto Campo
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:18 PM

I've searched the DT and the Forum, and couldn't find the lyrics of the song The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament. I'm looking for the version sung by Harry Boardman in Deep Lancashire. Can somebody help? I'm also interested in the lyrics of the other songs in that collection, only few of which are in the DT, if someone can tell me where to look for them. Thank you. Roberto Campo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:37 PM

Sure it isn't the Four loom weaver?

LTS

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:42 PM

there is a discussion of a song titled that here

url=http://campus.murraystate.edu/academic/faculty/kevin.binfield/songs.htm

if it's the right one, I'll post.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:54 PM

Several of the songs, or versions of them, are available here (found via the "Digitrad and Forum Search").  Listed below to avoid later duplication:

Deep Lancashire: Songs and Ballads of the Industrial North-West. Various Artists (Topic 12T188, 1968):

The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament: Harry Boardman
Hop Hop Hop: The Oldham Tinkers
Beg Your Leave: Pete Smith
Ale is Physic For Me: Mike Harding
Gettin' Wed: Harry Boardman
Clogs: recited by Harvey Kershaw
The Merry Little Doffer: Harry Boardman
Rawtenstall Annual Fair:  Lee Nicholson
(Additional verses:  Lyr Req: Rawtenstall annual fayre
Coalhole Medley: The Oldham Tinkers
For part of this, see:  What Is Jennie Weeping For
Cob-a-Coalin': Harry Boardman For other texts, see:  Cob-a-Coalin'
Seaur Pies: John Howarth & the Oldham Tinkers
The Bury New Loom: Harry Boardman
Version in the DT:  Bury New Loom
Ten Per Cent:  Pete Smith & Mike Harding
A Mon Like Thee:  John Howarth & The Oldham Tinkers
The Lancashire Liar: Harry Boardman.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:22 PM

Malcolm - you are GOOOOOD!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: GUEST,Roberto Campo
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:25 PM

Thank you MMario, that's what I was looking for. The lyrics of The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament are in the file. Besides, can somebody tell where can I find good recordings of songs of the Luddism and the Chartism? Thank you Malcolm for the other songs. Roberto Campo

Subject: Lyr Add: CLOGS (Harvey Kershaw)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 May 01 - 02:47 PM

Clogs is a Lancashire Dialect poem, so no tune.  Here it is:

CLOGS

(© Harvey Kershaw, 1958)

As soon as aw were owd enough,
Tu toddle on mi own deawn t' clough,
They made mi wear, cos lone were rough,
Some clogs.

When later on aw went to skoo',
Because mi mother made mi goo,
Wi' temper aw punced noses through
Mi clogs.

Skoo'-maister 'at aw had just then,
Oft gi' mi t' stick 'specially when
He saw 'at aw'd forgot to cle'n
Mi clogs.

Like ow young lads, aw loved a lark,
Aw liked tu mak' clog irons spark,
Aw cracked, through doin' it in t' dark,
Mi clogs.

Mi fayther went off at t' deep end,
When he found eawt, he made mi bend,
An' aw felt what power his foot could lend
Tu clogs.

If th' bigger lads at top o' t' broo,
Should try tu bash mi comin' fro' t' skoo',
One thing'd allus poo me through,
Mi clogs.

From t' skoo' aw went hauve time i' t' mill,
A skip wi' bobbins aw'd tu fill,
Mi first week's wage just settled t' bill
For new clogs.

At eighteen aw were cooartin' strong,
But, sad tu say, it didn't last long,
For hoo said, when aw axed her what were wrong?
It's thi clogs.

That hurt so much aw welly skriked,
An' after tay tu bed aw piked,
But aw found a lass 'at said hoo liked
Mi clogs.

We were wed i' t' June o' t' followin' year,
Th' owd church were crommed yo' couldn't stir,
That's th' only time aw didn't wear
Mi clogs.

Aw'm owder neaw by fifty year,
But let them `at want ha' shoon tu wear,
Aw'll be owd fashioned an' prefer
Mi clogs.

Shoon nip your feet, just like a vice,
Aw've had some, an' it's noan so nice,
If yo' han to, tak' my advice,
Try clogs.

If yo've getten a job like shiftin' sond in,
Or bug-blindin' yo're upsteers londin,
Yo'll need a gradely understondin'
Try clogs.

Two things yo'll find browt Lancashire fame,
An' one is cotton an' t' cotton frame,
But as for t' second, there's nobbut one name,
It's clogs.

From Lancashire Sings Again, Harvey Kershaw, 1958. (self-published).

Malcolm

Subject: Lyr Add: THE HAND LOOM WEAVER'S LAMENT
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 01 - 03:23 PM

The Entry for The Hand Loom Weaver's Lament at this site

url=http://campus.murraystate.edu/academic/faculty/kevin.binfield/songs.htm

The recurrent theme of "old prices" in "General Ludd's Triumph" and other Luddite writings does not originate solely with the risings of 1811 but can be traced back to at least two sources. It was inherited from previous textile workers and it developed just prior to Nottinghamshire Luddism among the weavers of Lancashire, who earlier, in 1792, had taken violent action against the new Cartwright steam-looms in Manchester. In the face of increasing mechanization, wages (following prices) fell; in Bolton, average weekly earnings declined from twenty-five shillings in 1800 to fourteen in 1811 (Palmer, Sound 100). (9) Such circumstances gave rise to the "Lament" and its wishing after "old prices."

Palmer dates the "Lament" as nearly contemporary with "Jone o' Grinfield," although much of the decrease in wages came in the years of distress following 1807, especially on the heels the American Non-Intercourse Act and the expansion and collapse in trade with South America, suggesting a possibility that the song may have been composed in 1807 or after (Palmer, Sound 100; Darvall 7). (10) If this date is accurate, it suggests that the song evolved through the period of the Luddite risings, eventually being emended after the exile and death of Napoleon (see stanza six). Such emendation and variation of songs was not at all unusual, as the "John o' Grinfield" series of songs bears witness, and such emendation explains the contradictory evidence for dating within the song itself ("When the wars are at an end," indicating a date before 1815, versus "Now Bonyparty's dead and gone," suggesting a date of 1821 or after).

The song is unusual in that it has an identified author, John Grimshaw. Sung to the tune of "A Hunting We Will Go," it remained a favorite among the factory-workers of the north through the years of Luddism, but more significant is the fact that its themes and phrases gave birth to new songs, among them the "Triumph."

The source for "The Hand-loom Weavers' Lament" is John Harland and T. T. Wilkinson's Ballads and Songs of Lancashire: Ancient and Modern, 3rd edition, 193-95. It also appears in part in Palmer's A Touch on the Times, and in whole in Vicinus' Industrial Muse.

THE HAND-LOOM WEAVERS' LAMENT

You gentlemen and tradesmen, that ride about at will,
Look down on these poor people; it's enough to make you crill;
Look down on these poor people, as you ride up and down,
I think there is a God above will bring your pride quite down.

CHORUS: You tyrants of England, your race may soon be run,
You may be brought unto account for what you've sorely done.

You pull down our wages, shamefully to tell;
You go into the markets, and say you cannot sell;
And when that we do ask you when these bad times will mend,
You quickly give an answer, "When the wars are at an end."

When we look on our poor children, it grieves our hearts full sore,
Their clothing it is worn to rags, while we can get no more,
With little in their bellies, they to work must go,
Whilst yours do dress as manky as monkeys in a show.

You go to church on Sundays, I'm sure it's nought but pride,
There can be no religion where humanity's thrown aside;
If there be a place in heaven, as there is in the Exchange,
Our poor souls must not come near there; like lost sheep they must range.

With the choicest of strong dainties your tables overspread,
With good ale and strong brandy, to make your faces red;
You call'd a set of visitors--it is your whole delight--
And you lay your heads together to make our faces white.

You say that Bonyparty he's been the spoil of all,
And that we have got reason to pray for his downfall;
Now Bonyparty's dead and gone, and it is plainly shown
That we have bigger tyrants in Boneys of our own.

And now, my lads, for to conclude, it's time to make an end;
Let's see if we can form a plan that these bad times may mend;
Then give us our old prices, as we have had before,
And we can live in happiness, and rub off the old score.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Noreen
Date: 15 May 01 - 05:23 PM

Malcolm, I love that poem, thanks for posting it.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 May 01 - 08:07 PM

Glad you liked it.  He wrote some good ones, and I'm tempted to post more...  Another time, anyway.  Meanwhile, more on The Handloom Weaver's Lament:

The tune for this song is also known as A-Hunting We Will Go and The Battle of Waterloo.  It was also used for the Peterloo song With Henry Hunt We'll Go, and for a number of songs about Wellington, both pro and anti.  It is of course a version of The Nutting Girl (A-Nutting We Will Go).  At times like this, we miss Bruce Olson.  Offhand, I don't see the song in Palmers's book, but Karl Dallas gave it (along with the above information) in his 100 Years of Toil (Wolfe, 1974); a set collected by John Higson from Common John Grimshaw.  I've made a midi from the notation in Dallas' book, and until it appears at the  Mudcat Midi Pages,  it may be heard via the  South Riding Folk Network  site, here:

Handloom Weaver's Lament: Midi

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 16 May 01 - 08:30 AM

There is a very moving description of this song (under the title "The Owdham Weaver")in Mrs Gaskell's novel "Mary Barton-A Tale of Manchester Life". A character ,Magaret,a young workwoman who was "a sallow, unhealthy,sweet-looking young woman,with a careworn look" sings the song for Mary Barton.The song text is given in dialect in the novel,and Margaret's performance is described: "The air to which this sung is a kind of droning recitative,depending much on expression and feeling.To read it,it may,perhaps,seem humorous;but it is that humour which is near akin to pathos,and to those who have seen the distress it describes,it is a powerfully pathetic song.Margaret had both witnessed the destitution,and had the heart to feel it;and withal,her voice was of that rich and rare order,which does not require any great compass of notes to make itself appreciated...Margaret,with fixed eye,and earnest,dreamy look,seemed to become more and more absorbed in realising to herself the woe she had been describing,and which she felt might at that very moment be suffering and hopeless within a short distance of their comparative comfort." This is surely a wonderful description of a singer in performance-it must be drawn from Mrs Gaskell's own experience. There is also a brief discussion of the song in A L Lloyd's book "Folk Song in England" (Paladin,1967)pp304-307,which gives another text along with music.

I hope this isn't too long a message,nor too much extraneous to the original request.I'm a newcomer to this site,so please forgive any unwelcome intrusion.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Wavestar
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:18 PM

Welcome, Matthew! All information is welcome here, if the original poster can't use it, someone else might :) It's good to have you here, obviously you come armed with knowledge!

-J

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 May 01 - 07:35 PM

You're welcome here, and we always value such contributions.  I couldn't get hold of a copy of Mary Barton today, but your reference to Lloyd's book (I have a different edition, so the page numbers you gave don't work for me) does make me wonder if you might possibly be thinking of Jone O' Grinfelt /Greenfield (which is sometimes called The Four-Loom Weaver, and occasionally The handloom Weaver's Lament), but which is actually a completely different song.  The description of the melody might suggest that.  Could you possibly quote a few lines from Mrs. Gaskell, if she gave any?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 16 May 01 - 08:22 PM

Thanks, Malcolm. The song in "Mary Barton" is certainly the Four-Loom Weaver. It begins (as quoted in the novel):

Oi'm a poor cotton-weyver, as mony a one knoowas,
Oi've nowt for t'yeat, an oi've woorn eawt my clooas
Yo'ad hardly gi' tuppence for aw as oi've on
My clogs are boath brosten, and stuckins oi've none
Yo'd think it wur hard,
To be browt into the warld,
To be-clemmed, an do th' best as yo con.

There are another six verses given. I do apologise for confusing the two songs. I was partly led astray by the fact that on my old Topic LP "The iron muse" Bert Lloyd sang this song as "The poor cotton weaver", whereas the recent Topic CD of the same title has Harry Boardman singing "The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament". I didn't spend time listening to Harry Boardman's song and just assumed it was the same one. Whoops! That should stop me sticking my nose in.
Best wishes, Matthew.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Anglo
Date: 16 May 01 - 10:34 PM

My partner and I used to sing "The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament" to a different tune from Harry's - a minor mode one. I seem to recall this tune was on the Critics Group's Waterloo/Peterloo recording, but since I don't have it I can't check. :-(

That's also the version Ian Robb recorded with Hang The Piper on their old Folk Legacy LP.

It also seems to me (old memory again, so I might be wrong) that the Critics sang "With Henry Hunt We'll Go" to the tune that Karl Dallas prints with "The Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament." That tune, btw, is not the one that Harry Boardman uses on his recording of the latter song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 May 01 - 03:51 AM

The sleeve notes to Deep Lancashire say

It was originally sung to the tune of A Hunting We Will Go, which in Lancashire at least can mean either The Nutting Girl or The Grand Old Duke Of York

The tune Boardman sings on the LP is a GODOY variant, whereas the tune he published for 'With Henry Hunt We'll Go' in Folk Songs and Ballads of Lancashire is a Nutting Girl tune.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Anglo
Date: 17 May 01 - 08:52 AM

GODOY?

Subject: Tune add: THE HANDLOOM WEAVER'S LAMENT
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:01 AM

I had forgotten that Boardman also included 'Handloom Weaver's Lament' in 'Folk Songs and Ballads of Lancashire'. The words there are as posted by Mmario (but on the recording he omits the verse beinning "With the choicest ...").

Here is an ABC made from the dots in Boardman's book

X:1
T:The Handloom Weaver's Lament
C:Tune Arranged by Harry Boardman. © Maypole Music 1972
B:Folk Songs and Ballads of Lancashire. ISBN 0 86001 027 9
M:C|
L:1/4
K:G
zD|
DG GG|G2 FG|A>A AA|A3 D|
BB BG|cc cc|BG AF|G3 G|
DG GG|G2 FG|AA AA|D3 D|
B>B BG|cc cA|BG AF|G2||
%CHORUS
B2|
D2 GG|G2 FG|AA AA|D3 D|
BB BG|cc c>A|BG AF|G2||

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Noreen
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:21 AM

Grand Old Duke Of York?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:27 AM

Got it in one, Noreen.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: MMario
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:31 AM

The grand old Duke of York,
he had ten thousand men!

in DT

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Anglo
Date: 17 May 01 - 09:39 AM

Duh!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The handloom weaver's lament
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:36 AM

By the way, do you know what crill refers to?

Ian :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The handloom weaver's lament
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:55 AM

Karl Dallas (100 Songs of Toil, 1974) seems to have assumed it was a typo for chill. If it's a dialect word, it's one I haven't come across before!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

''The four loom , weaver '' , my father was from Lancashire . I had the words , I asked my father to re sight them. It took him 4 temps to re sighting them completely , with out braking down in tears. You see his mouther had been a weavers in the 1920's - 1930's. As dads father was on the black list , being a local leader of the pit strike of 1926. So dads mouther was the bread earner , having 5 children to feed and cloth. My father pointed out some of the words were wrong in the verstion I had. '' thirst in Lancashire r dialectic means hunger , clemd means hunger. Pardon my spellings I frustratingly am a dyslectic.

I came a cross '' the 4 loom weaver'' , on the album , '' Waterloo to Peterloo'' , some years ago. It was performde by an Oldham folk band , sadly I am not to sure of it's name. All the songs are of protest after the battle of Walterloo. One I recal is titalde ''The Labouering Man'' , which could lay claim to being the first anty war song. Most of the songs are from Lancashire , tho one is from Dudly, in the west midlands.
I hope I have been of some help.
Ken D Williams

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hand-loom weaver's lament
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

What a wonderful (yet heartbreaking) post. Many thanks, Ken.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 25 - 07:03 PM

What's the meaning of "crill"? Up above, Malcolm Douglas says "Karl Dallas (100 Songs of Toil, 1974) seems to have assumed it was a typo for chill. If it's a dialect word, it's one I haven't come across before!"

Dick Holdstock thinks it is Lancashire slang for "disgusted."

Any other ideas?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 10 Jan 25 - 08:08 PM

^^^ crill

A glossary of the Lancashire dialect 1875
has it @ 1865 \ 1867 as

CRILL, sb. a shiver.

WAUGH- He began to be aware that there was a deeper silence around him than before, and it sent a cold crill all over him.
Besom Ben, c. iv., p. 37.

Aw felt a bit of a cowd crill, for summut towd mo there wur misfortin afoot.
Dead Man's Dinner, c. ii., p. 18.

https://archive.org/details/glossaryoflancas00nodauoft/page/92/mode/1up?view=theater&q=crill

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 07:46 AM

Can someone please explain why two posts to this thread that I made yesterday have been lost/removed?

The first gave the verses of the "Four Loom Weaver" as sung by Maddy Prior & June Tabor on their first "Silly Sisters" album, the second gave a link to an ebook of the Elizabeth Gaskell novel "Mary Barton" mentioned above ... Hardly contentious enough to cause editorial removal without further explanation, surely?

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 09:00 AM

Your posts are in another thread, Origins: The Four Loom weavers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 10:07 AM

^^^^^ crill

Jennifer Reid, 21st century singer & researcher of Lancashire dialect work songs and Victorian broadside ballads, has it in a talk she gave[2024?] referring to Henry Cunliffe's 1886 'A Glossary of Rochdale-with-Rossendale' :

Crill is C, so that's a creeping chill

https://www.theportico.org.uk/jennifer-reid-transcript

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 25 - 11:13 AM

"Your posts are in another thread, Origins: The Four Loom weavers."

Tx, but I don't think that was where I originally posted them, because the reference to the version of "Four Loom Weavers" in Elizabeth Gaskell's "Mary Barton" is in this thread not that one, so I am reasonably certain that here is where I posted them. While I can understand that maybe the lyrics of Maddy & June's version would have been better posted in the other thread, and so might have been moved there by someone doing housekeeping, the second post concerning "Mary Barton" referred back to this thread, so should have been left here.

---

I moved your messages because I didn't want this song to be confused with "Four Loom Weavers," a completely different song. I hadn't figured out what to do with the references to Mary Barton, and meant to get back to it. If you had been a registered Mudcatter, I could have emailed you or sent you a personal message to discuss the matter.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 08:25 AM

Well, that leaves me with an unwanted dilemma; I don't want to start a flame war, but, on the other hand, those finding my posts in the other thread, particularly the post concerning "Mary Barton", will think I am a fool, because they won't be able to find the post upthread to which my post refers; whereas in reality the fault is yours, not mine.

This is exactly the sort of mess that might be expected from such an officious intervention as you have made. Threads are dynamic, and sometime go off-topic, etc, just as do conversations in real life. Mudcat seems to have a pretty good indexing system whereby lists of relevant threads appear at the top of each thread on a certain topic. It would be far better not to try and massage the content after the event, but rely on that indexing system to help people find relevant content, as this system has done for me within the last month or so.

Please put at least my "Mary Barton" post back in this thread, where it naturally belongs.

And, BTW, if you hadn't signed in as "Guest", I'd've known who you are and understood the true situation earlier.

---

I am not a "Guest." I am the Music Editor of Mudcat. If you wish to communicate with me further, contact me at [e-mail]. Otherwise, fuck off.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 08:55 AM

Seeking clarification on the origin of "The Wind That Shakes the Barley"

Subject: RE: Origins: Hand-Loom Weaver's Lament
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jan 25 - 11:11 AM

Search results in Mudcat on "The Wind That Shakes the Barley"