BS: Do you still love Fidel?

Subject: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Big Red
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:21 AM

Past threads have praised Fidel's Cuba. In light of recent events leading to mock trials, imprisonment and even execution, have any catters changed their minds about Castro's Cuba and maybe now see the light?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: BlueJay
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:28 AM

See what light? That all patriotic Americans should blindly fall in line behind Bush? Stomp 'em, rah, rah.
I, for one have always deplored Castro's Cuban regime. Something's gotta be wrong in a country whose citizens are dying or risking death in order to get to Miami.
I tremendously respect the spirit of the Cuban people. They have to be some of the most resilient people on our planet. I love their music and their spirit.
Unfortunately, Cuba has little in the way of natural resouces, except sugar cane. If Cuba sat atop a huge petroleum reserve, like ANWR, I'd bet Bush would be among the first to decry the "evil" human rights abuses in Cuba. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:35 AM

Bush probably flunked geography too.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:39 AM

I was in Cuba before the revolution, and I can tell you that under Baptista, only the rich and the depraved crooks prospered. At least now the common people are educated and get health care. Do you think our embargo is hurting Castro? did it hurt Saddam"?
BOLLOX! Grow up!
What we need is a president with the balls to face the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:48 AM

He's BEEN thinking with his balls, Kendall- difficulty is he can't use his brain- or what passes for his brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:24 AM

In light of recent events leading to mock trials, imprisonment and even execution

Sounds like the US under the "Patriot Act". Suspension of Habeas Corpus, people being held without reason and with no access to a lawyer for indefinite periods of time, people having their citizenship taken from them so they can be denied access to their constitutional rights, etc. etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:02 AM

Red:

This is an almost meaningless question to pose to the community at large.

I doubt there are four people on the Cat who ever "loved" Fidel Castro. What's all this gassifyin' for?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

Well, I'm someone who constantly refers to my fellow Canadians as "Soviet Canuckistan, Castro-luvin, Dubya-dissin, Hosers, as a joke. (yer right, why bother with jokes on current mudcat?)

I NEVER loved (in any way) ol' Fidel though. He struck me as a pompous, long winded overly sincere kind of revolutionary. What he did in the beginning probably was quite remarkable, but he quickly took on some of the worst aspects of the system he deposed. Probably no choice either, 'cause hanging on to power in ANY system means draconian measures will be used. Newspapers wanna keep printing, and editors wanna stay out of jail, so whether it's Havana or Houston, they'll support the status-quo.

On the other hand, the beaches are nice, the priveleged get lotsa perqs, and surviving as long as they have, is pretty amazing. When Castro croaks, listen for that "instant suckingggg" sound. My guess is that MacDonald's will get there first.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:09 PM

You're quite correct, Rick, that Castro had no choice. I've read the history of Cuba both before and after Castro. What Castro did was replace an utterly corrupt dictatorship with a far less corrupt one. He threw out the Mafia, the casinos, the prostitution rings, and the American corporations which were employing Cubans under virtual slave labour conditions to grow sugar. He gave that corporate land to the people who actually worked on it, and also gave them education, health care, housing, and a viable future for the first time in their lives.

It is indeed true that some Cubans risk their lives trying to reach Florida. It is also true that Mexicans, Guatemalans, Costa Ricans, El Salvadoreans, Panamanians, Chileans, Bolivians, and everyone else in Latin America similary try desperately to get into the USA...and frequently risk their lives doing so.

I wonder why? Because they are POOR, that's why! I'll tell you this, the poor in Cuba are way better off than their counterparts in the rest of Latin America. If Mexico was that close to Florida, you would see a lot more boat people coming.

All this has nothing to do with "loving" Castro. It has to do with recognizing reality, and focusing on the whole situation, not the fragment that suits your special interest group.

Castro is a dictator. Nobody except dictators has ever been able to maintain a government in Cuba for more than a handful of years. Castro does what he must in order to survive.

And the reason the USA is down on Castro is not because he's a dictator. The USA loves dictators who cooperate with corporate America, and hates those who don't. The reason they're down on him is because he threw out their corporations and their casinos and their whorehouses, and gave the land back to the people....and because the Cuban-American community in Florida can always be counted on to vote as a bloc...and vote Republican.

Florida, as everyone should know by now, is a key state in federal elections.

By the way, I've got a good Cuban friend coming up in May for a visit. He's a well-educated and very smart guy. We'll see what he has to say about the recent crackdown, and I'll let you know.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

The Cuban revolution was a long time ago and my memory ain't what it used to be—and never was. Can someone refresh my rapidly fading memories? I seem to remember… (picture becomes wavey, loses focus and changes to a sepia tone with lots of harp strumming… as focus returns, people seem to be oddly dressed.)

• I have this persistant memory of a television news broadcast in which the interviewer, a very young Mike Wallace, is talking with twelve guys in fatigues on top of a mountain in Cuba. The twelve are telling Wallace they intend to liberate Cuba from Batista, the gambling industry and organized crime.
• I remember large numbers of U.S. soldiers-of-fortune going to Cuba to fight with Castro and a lot of popular sympathy for Castro's revolution here in the States.
• I remember general joy here in the U.S. when the Batista government fell and the feeling that our well-loved neighbors had finally been freed from a ruthless dictator.
• I seem to recall that Castro first turned to the U.S. for support for his new Cuban government. He (mistakenly) thought the U.S. would be delighted to help him rebuild Cuban society and become a trading partner and soure of aid.
• Castro was soon disabused of his naivety when the U.S. demanded that he return all nationalized busineses to their “rightful” owners, mostly the mob and userous agri-businesses.
• Shocked, but seriously in need of support, Castro somewhat reluctantly turned to the USSR as the only economic power willing to help. This also deepened Castro's long-standing suspicion of western capitalism and set him on a course to change the political and economic course of Latin America.
• During the 1960s a lot of young people in the U.S. romanticized the Cuban revolution and spent time in Cuba helping people build collective farms and such. As I recall, songs from this period made their way into Sing Out!.
• Cuba suffered more economic problems with the collapse of the USSR and the general fall of Western Communism. Castro's own defiant pride has been partly responsible for Cuba's failure to recover but he and his government continue to be a source of outrage for the far right in the U.S. and their religious zeal in this regard continues to hamstring U.S. policy.

Of course things in Cuba aren't what we'd like them to be but they probably aren't what Fidel would like them to be either. Still, the top three executioners, worldwide, are China, Iran and the U.S.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:22 PM

LH, I was still composing as you were posting. You sure have a way with words.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:25 PM

Beautiful summation of the actual history of Cuba, Mark. You will not hear much, if any of that on the American media these days, because they don't want people to by knowledgable or to think, they merely want them to react to the latest sensation, in complete isolation from the larger context.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM

According to Reporters without borders Cuba is the only Latin American country that has reporters in jail for articles. 'Lack of respect for the head of state' was the crime of Manuel Antonio Gonzáles Castellanos, for instance: 2 years and 6 months

If I ponder for a moment that 'lack of respect for the head of state' in written word was a crime in the USA I could see Mudcatters amassing centuries easily.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

Fortunately, many American people have this cussed habit of going on thinking anyway, much like the bumblebee who, according to the best scientific experts, was once declared physically incapable of flight.

Let me add that I appreciate both of your summaries, Mark and LH.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM

We may not be quite there yet, Wolfgang, but we're headed in that direction fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM

The legend that according to science the bumblebee cannot fly<(a>

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:14 PM

Hell no. That bastard wouldn't stop smoking cigars in bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM

Kim....leave Clinton outta this!!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:40 PM

What? This self confessed carnivore from Toronto also smokes cigar?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM

LOL! Good one, Rick. Actually, Castro quit smoking some years ago, as an encouragement to the Cuban public to follow suit and improve their health. (hard to believe, but he did quit!)

He's also been lecturing them on the evils of rum, and keeping the price high (by Cuban standards) to discourage sales.

When I was down there, I was told by some of my young (and very revolutionary - against the system) musician friends that alcoholism among men is probably the biggest social problem in Cuba. It leads to a lot of fights and domestic violence.

Another ongoing struggle is that of the women to overcome the old Cuban machismo. Cuban women are a pretty feisty and independent lot. The men would prefer things to remain traditional ("it's a man's world" would sum up their attitude).

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:56 PM

Do you still love Fidel? No, can't says that I do, or that I ever did. I don't hate him either. Seems to me that he's Cuba's problem, and no amount of pontificating by Norteamericanos will make a bit of difference. Of course, I also thought Saddam was Iraq's problem, but that's another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:01 PM

Now, if you want outright jack-booted fascism, lots of gambling casinos, houses of prostitution, crime like you wouldn't believe, and a McDonald's on one corner and a MalWart (mispelling deliberate) on the other...I suggest giving the island back to the Cuban exiles ASAP.

A handy spinoff might be a great reduction in crime in the state of Florida (assuming the exiles all went back to Cuba, I mean...but they probably would maintain American residences too...so forget it.)

The USA should have helped Castro in 1959. If they had, he would never have gone to the Russians, and everyone would be better off for it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM

As I see it, Socialism is not the enemy. Totalitarianism and dictators are the enemy. Enron and Arthur Andersen apologists and opportunists, like Big Red, muddy the waters so mobody will see that the demise of totalitarianism will allow Socialism to be pulled down with the statues. Then we pay big $$$$$$$$$$ to put up new statues of the new Capitalist dictators who can pay off or kill off any in the way. If the people don't come over to us, the lights will never get turned on again.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

LH and Mark, beautiful presentations of the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Ed.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

Thread drift:

My partner is called Fidelmia (an old Irish name)

She calls herself Fidel for short, and it's been really wierd to see the title of this thread keep popping up today.

Of course I still love her!

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM

You know, your American "Founding Fathers", when they made their revolution, were dead lucky they didn't have a neighbour like the United States.

In normal life it seems pretty clear that if you treat people as enemies, they turn into enemies.

What's happening with these trials is ugly, but in countries under threat from a powerful neighbour, things like that happen. During World War II civil liberties in Britain took a hell of a hammering, and innocent people, including Jewish German refugees, were locked up for years.

I suspect it can only be months before there will be a concerted effort by Bush to "bring about regime change" in Cuba, very probably involving a hi-tech Bay of Pigs. And I can't see that the wishes of the Cuban people, which, as Art said, would surely be for Socialism without Totalitarianism, will be given any more chance than they have been in other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM

Castro's crimes are truly hideous. Everyone knows that ordinary Cubans need MacDonalds burgers, Levi Jeans and Coca Cola. He should be brought down as soon as possible. Now if all he had done was to use tanks to roll over students, or have folks heads chopped off on Fridays, or ordered the occasional stoning of an "adulterous woman" I would feel inclined to deal with him more leniently...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM

As Cardinal Richalieu once wrote, " For the good of the state, the bearer has done what the bearer has done."

The goodness of the state is always based on your perspective when combined with your understanding of what is the truth, your financial self interest, and which side of the gun barrell you are watching the smoke from.

Castro was an opertunista who got a little money from the Soviets and the US to over throw a really bad guy. The Castroistas were wise not to tell Eisenhaure who else was funding their little take over. All Eisenhauer knew was Baptista was not a very good person and anyone willing to kick his ass without getting the USA directly implicated was our kind of Patriot. But I doubt they looked very deep either. The Soviets were happy to have a toehold so close to the US. THe US was happy to get rid of a haven for organized crime. (Its a shame that Eisenhauer didn't know who the other business partners where in this adventure. I think from a stand point of political awareness, more was known about Che Guevera than Fidel Castro at the time.)

This kind of polical shortsightedness is something the US has excelled at for years. We would support anyone in power as long as they weren't communists. It didn't matter how bad the regime in power was or who they killed "...for the good of the state..." as long as they weren't communists.

The communists would go into a third world country with unending money and build schools and hospitals and subvert the locals with education and health. It didn't matter to the locals that the social and historical part of the education was largely based on lies. The uneducated local populations just saw schools and someone willing to help. In typical political shortsightedness the US just saw another anti Soviet ally that only cost them a new car and trip to New York now and then.

This is ofcourse very over simplified ( cause I'm tired of typing.) but accurate in a broad sense.

As to Big Red's openning comment. I never was a fan of Castro except that neat Ridgeway Cap he always wore. Why does he assume that because I think Ashcroft is the Anti-Christ, Bush is a disengenuous tool of big business, and the Patriot Act in all it's possible permutations are Un constitutional and anti American that I must be a Communist sympathyser? What an idjit.

Just so he knows where my politics stand, the last great President we had was Harry Truman, the last good President we had was Gerald Ford.
The next one I'd like to see but he may be too smart to run and I haven't heard from him in awhile is Ben Nighthorse Campbell.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DougR
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:20 PM

kendall: as you view it (the truth)

L.H. I heard an interview on NPR yesterday with the author of a new book on Fidel and Cuba. He is a professor at Yale University and escaped from Cuba, along with his brother, and I think his mother, when he and his brother were children. His view of Cuba (and Castro)is diametrically opposed to the one you present. Perhaps you would like to read the book. I think it is titled, "Waiting for Snow in Havana." It should be in book stores now.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

Jimmy Carter was the last GOOD president.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:55 PM

Funny thing about those "escaped Cubans." Everyone I've talked to about Castro (which, not since I've never lived in FL, is a grand total of 3) hate him.

Unfortunately, all 3 were from families involved in the previous government, who coincidentally, happened to be very wealthy members of the government. Hmmm. No bias there, eh?

Refugees ALWAYS say nasty things about their former country, some of it true, some of it not. If they liked the place, chances are they'd still be there. And from all reports, many Cubans genuinely DO like it in Cuba. Those who "escaped" as children are particularly suspect, because they grew up being told how evil and horrible Cuba was. They are unlikely to develop any objective opinions.

So I wouldn't take their word for anything about Cuba. The truth is probably somewhere between the happy-happy Communist myth and the Castro-is-the-Anti-Christ myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:03 PM

Kendall,

I admire you greatly for many things. So please accept my opinionated correction with the polite regard for which I hold you in. (Huh?)

Jimmy Carter was the last "Truly Good Man" to be president. Being a Good Man doesn't make you a good president. He was not a very good president but he has always been a very good man.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:06 PM

Spelling isn't too important, but I think Don rather overdid it in that post with the names:

Eisenhaure?
Guevera?
Baptista?
Richalieu?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM

Actually Mc,

I think "overdidit" is one word.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM

A little bit more Mc.

I'm not really a bad speller, I got Eisenhauer right a few times, but I am an awful typerer. And being a British person you would miss the Americanisms Like Baptista instead of Batista, which was typical at the time. Even the newspapers would spell the name wrong from time to time. Kind of a nuclear/nucular thing. I can't think of the last time I even thought of Che Guevara/Guevera let alone saw his name spelled. Which may say volumes about his impact on the history of the 20th century. I thought I did well getting Che spelled correctly, altho' I can't make that little hoobistache thing or the "e".

AS for Richelieu/Richalieu, I almost typed Charlton Heston.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:18 PM

overdo (transitive verb): carry to excess.

From this distance I'd say you're right about Jimmy Carter. But I'd say Roosevelt was the last good President. They don't come along very often. My impression is that the people who wrote your Constitution thought it would be like that, and drafted it in the expectation that most Presidents wouldn't be much good.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:04 PM

Doug, truth is truth is truth. I was there. History is history.

It's interesting that we made the same mistake with Viet Nam. Ho Chi Mihn came to us first for help getting the French out of his country. We declined because France was a friend. Some friend, eh?

Don, I misunderstood you, Jimmy Carter was the last good man, Truman was the last good president. Nixon could have made it if he had been honest and not paranoid.

Ford was the last good president? What did he do besides pardon Nixon?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:37 PM

Kendall,

   The Mayaguez was held as a hostage by Khmer Rouge Pirates. Ford gave them three days to give up the ship and her crew. They didn't and Ford promised there wouldn't be another Pueblo incident and ordered in the Coral Sea and other ships and after several days of battle involving the marines and naval personal the Mayaguez and her crew were retaken. To me Gerald Ford showed something that Nixon lacked at the time. Decisive action.
    The battle involved loss of life by the Americans. The loss of life wasn't Ford's fault but when he was aked about it by the press he said it happened on his watch and the responsibility was his Ford wasn't in power to do much beyond Nixon's shadow but he did I think was honest and intent on getting the country back on it's feet.      
    Pardoning Nixon was political suicide and Ford must have known it. But viewing it as a means to getting the country away from the taint of Nixon and moving ahead as a country Ford chose the pardon rather than a near certain re-election. To me this shows Ford had character. Something we hadn't seen in awhile.
    Ford was also filled with the human screw ups that we do everyday. Fall down stairs, drive golfballs other than straight, mis-pronounce the names of people we know. I think he was just a regular, hard working guy who suddenly found himself in job he never aspired to and hadn't planned on, but he went in and did the best he could.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:40 PM

I agree that Carter was (is) a very good man...a so-so President. Nixon could've been a great president had he not been, as Kendall indicated above, shifty and paranoid! :-)

Clinton was a great politician and survivor, while at the same time he had certain...um...foibles which proved publicly embarrassing...

It's a tough job.

Doug - I would indeed be interested in that book. I like to hear different viewpoints, and I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip. I was earlier tonight looking at letters from Anna Maria, who was a young woman during Castro's revolution, and she still believes in it with all her heart, and is living in Cuba right now doing her best to benefit society through her church and educational work, so there are many different viewpoints on this kind of thing. The position a person is in when a revolution happens can tremendously color their reaction to it, needless to say. For Anna Maria, it was the salvation of the country, and its deliverance into a far more just system in every way.

Tell ya what, here's a deal. I'll read that one, and then I'll suggest one or two you can read on the same subject, and we can compare notes, okay? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM

I don't buy the with-such-a-neighbour-how-could-he-do-different attitude.

Like all former revolutionaries Castro is getting too rigid and has lost the ability to listen to dissenting voices. He knows best and that's it. His biggest failure is that he has never thought of giving the Cuban population the freedom to say whether they want to be governed by him any longer or not.

His recent treatment of the Varela Project, an initiative for reforms in Cuba that had collected enough signatures for a theoretically possible referendum, shows his contempt for democratic reforms.

The factual moratorium on death penalty in Cuba has ended recently (I don't know any details of the trials but an execution less than two weeks after the crime doesn't make a favourable impression on me) and Cuba is now the second state on the continent to execute criminals.

A sure sign of rigidity in a former revolutionary is when he thinks about the future in dynastic terms. I still have a high respect for what he has done many many years ago. But my last respect for the Castro of today went when he joined the ranks of those dictators (Iraq, Korea,...) who preselected a family member as future successor.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: JudyR
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:45 AM

No, but I distinctly remember being in love with Che Gueverra. As someone just said on here, we sure did romanticize the Cuban revolutionaries. And I've been thinking about it and pondering why, and if we were justified. I need to re-read this and think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:11 AM

A distinction: not "with-such-a-neighbour-how-could-he-do-different" but rather "with-such-a-neighbour-it's-not-too-surprising-he-didn't-do-better".

I'm sure it would have been possible to avoid a lot of the follies and worse-than-follies that have taken place in Cuba over the Castro years. In the same way it would have been possible for the United States to avoid its own follies and worse-than-follies.

And in regard to Cuba these have consistently been such as to push the regime there in the direction that undermined any hope of liberalisation and reform. Because that is not what is wanted by the people who have shaped US policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM

As I see it, if the USA hadn't gone ape over Nationalisations in Cuba*, Castro would either have been overthrown or retired by now - With the USA as a trading partner and free access both ways, can anyone here see the rigid regime standing? (especially if there was an extradition treaty).
By the bye, if, as has been stated earlier, "...alcoholism among men is probably the biggest social problem in Cuba..." which would you rather have as a problem, drunks or crack-heads?

* Given America's attitude to Nationalisation, I look forward to the return of (or compensation for) all the property seized from Loyalists, displaced, following America's own revolution.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:06 AM

At the time, I appreciated Ford when he pardoned Nixon. His enemies would have stretched out that trial through the next 40 elections. Many think he should have been punished, but, given his mind set, he was! The only president in our history to be forced to resign. That disgrace was worse than prison to a man like him.

President Johnson said Gerry Ford had played too many football games without a helmet.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM

From this weeks feature article (Paul Ingendaay) about Cuba in the Frankfurter Allgemeine (my translation):

Fidel Castro makes mistakes and doesn't even notice...Even left intellectuals these days turn away dumbfounded from Castro's country, not only Günther Grass but even card carrying marxists like Jose Saramago and Eduardo Galeano. Castro's trick to use the Iraq war as a smokescreen for the most brutal repression since years hasn't deceived anybody. Cuba, that too long pampered utopia whose strongest food was the dumb aggressivity of the American neighbour, reveals oneself as a dictatorship gone senile with a complete lack of societal vision

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:20 AM

"pampered" is an odd term for what has been done to Cuba.

"The dumb aggressivity" of its big neighbour may have deflected some of the criticism which Fidel's Cuba deserved - but it has had devastating effects on the country, economically and politically.

It may well have been true that Fidel chose to come down heavy against dissidents while the attention was focused on what was happening in Iraq, in the same way that Sharon has done in Gaza. That's the kind of thing politicians do.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM

My translation seems to have been not clear enough (or outright wrong) re 'pampered'.
It is not the country Cuba that has been pampered (that truly would be odd) but the left intellectuals have pampered their utopian ideal of a Cuba and the US aggressivity has helped them to uphold this illusion. That is what was meant in that sentence.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:07 AM

And now, all the still faithful may be heard singing:

Adeste, Fidelistas

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:45 AM

Funny, Wolfgang, that's funny! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do you still love Fidel?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM

"a dictatorship gone senile with a complete lack of societal vision"

LOL! That's rich!

Castro wouldn't be the first revolutionary ot win his fight, get to the top, and then look around and realize it's good to be the boss. I couldn't say whether Castro has become as corrupt as the last regime, but Cuba seems headed in that direction.