BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:24 PM

you can see his insistence that he is right about an incident he wasn't there at.

I am not and never have insisted anything at all about the incident. As you say, I was not there. What I know I am right about is that both remarks are, in my opinion and that of many others, racist.

Simplistic gnomish lesson (I know no other sort) in racism...
Gang of east Europeans looting = racist
Gang of criminals looting = not racist
very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston = racist
very upset at the current lawlessness in Boston = not racist

Is it so difficult to understand that when race is mentioned in a negative light it is racist? Can you not see that by repeating negative stereotypes it is feeding the flames of racism?

I have insisted over and over again that I believe that the remarks were made carelessly rather than maliciously and have given ample opportunity for you to confirm that. Instead you have accused me of everything from being deceitful to threatening you. Neither is true nor are the many other accusations you make against me but I am happy to let those go as anyone who know me knows they are simply not true. Just as anyone you know will, I am sure, confirm that you are not a racist. Let it go for heavens sake before you do yourself any serious damage.

PFR - Nail on the head. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

Btw... I'm quarter Polish/Russian border jew by blood..

My old mum seriously believes her jewish half makes her genetically mean with money.
Something she is genuinely proud of.

It would be embarrassing and 'offensive' if some of you heard her..

These are truthful examples:

Stopping on the pavement of a busy shopping hight st to stoop over and pick up a dropped penny,
proudly declaring "it must be the Jew in me"..

Standing in a shop and questioning the price of items with the till assistant

"I don't like wasting money and spending too much.. it must be my jewish blood.."

I could continue - I've had years of public embarrassment walking round town with her.....

It's a small town where some of the more extreme right wing thug factions
would instantly agree with her that "that's what jews are like"...


I'm happy to trust that Al is not a racist, same as I can understand Dave's [over ?]sensitivity on the issue...


Im my simplistic world view..

when two of the good guys fall out and fight.... that's another minor victory for the tories.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:59 PM

so everyone has to lie about what they experience. or risk being upbraided by you.

they have to edit the truth.

the truth is not racist. not communist. not pacifist. not of any particular political complexion.

its just the truth.

some of us tell the truth. some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

so everyone has to lie about what they experience. or risk being upbraided by you.

Not in the slightest, Al. You experienced a bunch of criminals looting a shop. End of story. Whether they were east Europeans, Black, White or Martian should not and does not have any relevance.

And what about you repeating the lie that east Europeans increase lawlessness? You seem to be concentrating the statement that I found least offensive and ignoring the other one. Why is that?

PFR - Same here. One if my Mum's favourite phrases is 'I'm not a Jew, just a careful Christian.' Acceptable from an 84 year old lady but, hopefully, getting less and less mainstream.

And, yes, you are right about ordinary run of the mill blokes like us arguing. Which is why I keep suggesting putting an end to it. But while I am being accused of lying, threatening, making things up and all sorts of other nonsense, I will keep defending myself.

I am, for the record, keeping a full record of this thread from the point that the subject was brought up again. Just in case.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:20 PM

...anyway, it's Friday night. (It's 5 o'clock and it's CRACKERJACK! - Remember that?) I had a real bad start to the day with a call at 4am but have had 2 excellent bits of news since. A very nice bottle of chilled Chilean Sauvignon Blanc awaits. Any thing I post later may be somewhat nonsensical...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

I'm chuffed because I took delivery today of my first Electro-harmonix Big Muff Pi fuzz box
since I owned one for a few weeks in 1978 [only 39 quid brand new from Germany]...

Now if any machine can kill fascists.. that gnarly nasty fuzzcker should... !!! 😎

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

keep on saying nothings happening

Al's a liar, a racist, a stinker.

hands over your ears. turn up the big muff to 11. no ones allowed to repeat what they've seen and heard. not if disagree with Dave's view of the cosmos.

it may work. i wish you joy of it. and i wish those who give Dave encouragement in his one eyed view of the world a peaceful night.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-20193087

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:57 PM

I did say the rest of tonight may be nonsense. Al, your intellect appears to have been overtaken by the velocity of its own exuberance. Why don't you just take a step back and look at yourself. (It would have been easier to say why don't you just fuck off, but I am not so crude.)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:22 PM

Al - I said, I think quite unmistakeably, that i don't accept or believe you are a racist..

I've certainly not taken Dave's side against you....

But you do seem to have worked yourself up into a such state of resentment.
that your're now having a poke at enemy, mediators, and innocent bystanders alike...????

A bit like the kind of scuffles outside pubs at closing time in the town where I live...

Now to place you & Dave's tiff in a wider context of ugly Mail skewed reportage on the situation in Boston...

"...the invasion of immigrants into every corner of England..."


By PETER HITCHENS FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 00:17, 31 March 2013 | UPDATED: 10:49, 28 June 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:46 PM

Any chance of us all moving swiftly on?

Yours sincerely

Innocent bystander

(only because, for some reason, I missed out on the beginning of all this...)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:09 PM

"I now believe that the unreasoning hatred comes almost entirely from the liberal Left. Of course, there are still people who harbour stupid racial prejudices. But most of those concerned about immigration are completely innocent of such feelings.

The screaming, spitting intolerance comes from a pampered elite who are ashamed of their own country, despise patriotism in others and feel none themselves. They long for a horrible borderless Utopia in which love of country has vanished, nannies are cheap and other people's wages are low.

What a pity it is that there seems to be no way of turning these people out of their positions of power and influence. For if there is to be any hope of harmony in these islands, then it can only come through a great effort to bring us all together, once again, in a shared love for this, the most beautiful and blessed plot of earth on the planet."


Peter Hitchins is right on the button.    The ideologically blind are the real "haters".

It must be a sad place they inhabit, when they feel obliged to set themselves against obvious truths.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:34 PM

Yeah - when I read that bit earlier today and considered merits of posting here...
I thought.. hmmm... could be an 'interesting' range of responses..


Now what if the exact same paragraph were published in Socialist worker...????

There were enclaves of extremist socialist theorising that seemed confounding and paradoxical to me 30 odd years ago..

... and it seems there still are...?????



I suppose if I had to have any qualm at all about Polish and other E European migrants,
it might be wondering how many might be neo -n@zis bringing their hatred with them to over here....???? 😕


I'd might even pay to watch gangs of our indigenous nationalist thugs
battling it out with migrant E.Euro fascist skin'eads...

Could turn it into a day event on Brighton Sea front or Minhead Butlins...???? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:57 PM

Don't think I've ever read "The Socialist Worker" PFR, but that passage would be true no matter where it was printed....I don't read the Mail either!

I prefer my own brand of Socialism, and it ain't no Utopia, it's mainly about survival and society before self.

Where the immigrants come from is of no importance, my opposition has fuck all to do with creed or colour.....the real hate pedlars here are those who colour every issue with debate stoppers like racism , homophobia, bigotry. The problem is NUMBERS and SPEED of change.
As Hitchins says, it's not evolution, it's revolution.

We live in interesting times and there are some serious issues and problems which require sensible discussion, something we never get from the media.

I have always considered myself a socialist, but have come to realise that to achieve socialism we need strong social values, and many of these values happen to be conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:57 AM

well sadly the link i provided was not from the daily mail, or the socialist worker - or anyone with an axe to grind. it was from the local bbc news.

sadly i was a witness to what seems to be happening in Boston. i made the mistake of telling you on mudcat.

a left wing prig said it was a racist comment.

i don't like being told i have made a racist comment. it not something i would do,

confronted with the fact. he makes up nonsense about me -that i have been briefed by policemen, he tells me that i will become known as a racist unwelcome on the folkscene.

now he tells me to fuck off.

you pays your money - you takes your choice. who is being reasonable?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:42 AM

No Al,

Dave didn't tell you to f**k off he wrote "Why don't you just take a step back and look at yourself. (It would have been easier to say why don't you just fuck off, but I am not so crude.)"

As PFR suggested "But you do seem to have worked yourself up into a such state of resentment. that your're now having a poke at enemy, mediators, and innocent bystanders alike...????"

We do realise you are upset at the suggestion of racism, however you made a statement that was unsubstantiated with evidence that could easily be construed as racist.

That was and remains the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:10 AM

Thanks, Guest, but it is OK anyway. I have had worse things said about me. Al has told me I am a liar, when the facts show I am not. He has said I have made threats against him, when the facts show I have done no such thing. I have been told I belong to a race of criminals. I have been called dishonest, a prig and all sorts of other things that are untrue yet I am told I am the one being unreasonable. As Al says, it is up to others to make their choice. Yet he still brings it up at every opportunity in the forlorn hope that he will seem to be the one hard done to. I have constantly said I do not believe he is a racist but made some unfortunate comments but he will not accept that olive branch. I will give it one more try.

Al, just what is it that you believe? Do you believe, to paraphrase your own statement, that an influx of east Europeans has brought lawlessness to towns like Boston? Do you believe it is any significance that the race of the looters matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:12 AM

oh right! everyone has to collate substantiation for what you witness. one has to tell lies and fabricate evidence. or get witnesses.

one's general honesty is not enough to leave one free of a charge of racism.

correction i am not 'upset', i am fucking livid. that i have been told i made a racist remark and utterly pissed off that you lot keep making excuses for this slander.

your compliance with his evil gives him the opportunity to repeat it.

racism is un acceptable. i should be able to tell you in a simple unbiassed way what happened to me one day in Boston - wthout laying myself open to a charge of racism.

he is TOTALLY unapologetic. he won't think twice about doing it again after all the support you lot have lent to him.

he's utterly cynical and feels he can get away with it. support it with lies. you won't bother to point out that he shouldn't lie

oh what the hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:22 AM

So, Al? Bearing in mind that I have said I do not believe that you are a racist. That I have not threatened you. That I have not lied to you. What is it that you are so livid about? It is my opinion that you made racist comments. Why are you so livid about the opinion of someone you so obviously care nothing for? And, once again, what is it that you believe?

BTW - Apologies to all for seeming to be dragging this out but I will keep responding as long as Al keeps following me round threads bringing up the subject at every opportunity. There is only one person who can put an end to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:23 AM

I should have also asked, what lies have I told?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:54 AM

you said i'd talked to policemen on this thread. that was an untruth.   unlike yourself i haven't got devoted followers who will dig up references.

you've said i make racist comments

i care cos you do it in public and you think it doesn't matter that you do it.

you don't give a shit how hurtful or damaging it could be.

i saw what i saw in Boston. i don't how i knew they were eastern european but they were. they had a way about them. you could tell.

the atmosphere of racial tension in Boston is on public record. it referred to in every episode of police interceptors. but you don't attack channel 5. you attack me. because you think you can get away with it. and your mates back you up.

that is me being honest.

now get on with being dishonest and repeat that i made a racist comment, and shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

"i saw what i saw in Boston. i don't how i knew they were eastern european but they were. they had a way about them. you could tell"


For goodness sake Al, pack it in. Do you not realise just how puerile the above sentence is. Nobody is saying you didn't witness a crime but for you to state CATEGORICALLY that the perpetrators were Eastern European is beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:10 AM

okay categorically that is what happened. that was my understanding of the situation. my profound and and complete understanding.

you don't give a shit about him saying categorically what i said was racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:57 AM

Al,

I think if you look back Dave has said repeatedly he doesn't think you are a racist but that the comment itself could be construed as racist.

He has offered the olive branch on several occasions and you seem to have thrown it back at him.

As I've already stated I know Dave slightly and I've no axe to grind with you but in this instance I could well perceive that Dave was upset.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:49 AM

you said i'd talked to policemen on this thread. that was an untruth.

Al, as you seem totally incapable of reading anything I write I have serious doubts as to whether this will sink in. I can but try. That has already been addressed -

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

I am happy to apologise for saying you were talking to a policeman. I have already said I could well be mistaken about the policeman comment but if it makes you happier, sorry for saying it. I was obviously conflating two sets of ideas in one. In my defense, it has been proven that both lawlessness and police were mentioned by you in the same post and it was almost 6 moths ago.

Yes, it was not true. I got confused. So what? We all do at times. At least I have the decency to apologise when I have been shown to be incorrect.

unlike yourself i haven't got devoted followers who will dig up references.

I don't have any devoted followers. There just happens to be people on here who recognise the truth.

now get on with being dishonest and repeat that i made a racist comment, and shame on you.

Well, you said

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

and

Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there

In my opinion those are racist comments and you made them. There is no shame in saying so. There is shame in perpetuating myths about the integrity of a whole block of people based on their place of birth though. What else can I say?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

Tell you what though. How about that I categorically state that although I believe it was a racist comment, you did not mean it to come across that way. In future I shall withold saying it was a racist comment and simply say it was a stupid comment. Is that any better? Only trying to help here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:40 AM

is it stupid to tell the truth.

look- put racial tension boston lincolnshire into google. that bbc thing was the first thing that came up for me

you go to boston. talk to the locals, come back and tell me i'm talking stupid.

this what the original conversation was about. that your comment derailed.

i was saying its easy to talk in generalities, but if you live in a hotspot - you will see stuff that doesn't fit in with preconceptions.

its a bit like Keith with his apparent faith in historians who thought that the first world war generals had something approaching competence. the guys on the ground really thought otherwise.


Siegfried Sassoon (bloke who was there)


The General

"Good-morning; good-morning!" the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
"He's a cheery old card," grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

if we cannot make our honest testimony - what is this life worth. i appreciate you're trying - but theres nothing stupid about telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

Al - .. if this is any tiny help rather than petrol on flames...

Where I live there is a significantly growing E.European population..

I'm biased - I like it - I have a [probably emotionally romanticised ?] affinity with E. European culture.

I can be walking in town and see new faces and automatically think to myself

"I bet he/she's E.European" it's a silly game I play, hoping to hear them speak to confirm my hunch.

I aint no anthropologist, but in my experience of extensive travels to Czech/Slozakia throughout the 90s
I think I can say without negative prejudice that there are some slightly recognisable Slavic features...

Which I think I still have some remnant of an intuition for noticing...???

Plus - and here is a negative racial stereotype - E.European young women tend to be far better looking than our lot....

Sorry if I'm talking unscientific bollocks... 😕

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

Al, I understand your anger, but trying to reason with these people from your perspective is hopeless. The guy is a 25ct troll, he actually enjoys this stuff.

I've had to put up with all kinds of shit just for producing a few facts and asking a few questions that they do not like to hear.

Just stop responding, you are knocking your head against a brick wall, all sensible and reasonable people on this forum know you for what you are a kind and helpful guy and a great musician.

Admin have already passed judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

I have no doubt whatsoever about racial tensions, Al. I have seen it at first hand. I have been victim to racial abuse as well, in my childhood. It is not nice I can assure you. And I lived most of my life in racial hotspots. I still work in one. Try googling Salford or Bradford. But that is not what my point is about. I simply believe that what you said can be construed as a racist comment. Other people have agreed. Can you not see it? Maybe not.

Since you mentioned Keith (Sorry to use you as an example Keith but you will understand where I am going.) There are things that Keith and I can never agree on because he says one thing and I understand it a different way and vice-versa. It is akin to speaking a different language. Maybe that is what is happening here. I cannot understand how you can not see that -

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

and

Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there

cannot be seen as racist comments. To me they are. To others they are.

I am as sick of this as you are so I'll tell you what. You tell me what you feel about east Europeans. Tell me whether you think they bring lawlessness where they settle. Then you tell me what you think I can to help mend your wounded pride. I will try my best to oblige.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:18 PM

ake - Al is not responding. I am. Look where the first mention of this was. No idea what you mean by admin has passed judgement unless you are referring to Joe's NON-admin diatribe when I seemed to touch a raw nerve of his the other day. The only time admin have been involved in this is when the thread in question was deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:48 PM

REMEMBER - this thread is about the Tory Party Conference

SEE - how much time and energy is being wasted with the wearying distraction of fighting amongst ourselves...

... and the ultimate WINNER will be....????? 😫

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:50 PM

historians -100 years distant

Sasoon - there in the trenches

me - Boston market place

Dave - other side of pennines

world authority on what happened - Dave - in his opinion

first prize - the moral right to talk utter bollocks about racism.

can't help you or your daft mates Dave. you're bonkers.

you're looking at the reason people won't engage with mudcat, and so many people are leaving.

i can only think of Brian Peters as a reputable Brit folkie who uses mudcat. The others just laugh at the mention of mudcat. They don't want to leave themselves open to utterly mindless thick abuse - like I have been subjected to.

there is racism in English folk music. my god there is! you wouldn't know racism if it bit your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

.....?????

errmmm... on balance I think I've leaned marginally more towards supporting you than Dave on this 'misunderstanding'.....

So if you are counting me as one of 'Dave's daft mates'
it's my humble honour to hope I am equally daftly one of your as well.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:31 PM

i gigged Salford for years - The Drill Hall Vaults, Mulvaney's Bar.

i taught for years in Brum. the rough bits Newtown, lived on the Hamstead rooad Handsworth. my wife taught in aston. the older teachers remberd ian cambell's kids being there.
in erdington - a landlady wouldn't rent us her flat cos we weren't Irish.

Boston is qualitatively different. go there and see it - you'll see what i mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:54 PM

Racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:24 PM

i can only think of Brian Peters as a reputable Brit folkie who uses mudcat.
well there is also Roy Harris, Dick Miles, John Breeze,Vic Smith, it is true none of us chhose to engage in these paticular battles, but we do use Mudcat for other things

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:41 PM

sorry GSS -no offence intended. but you know what i mean about mudcat's reputation. shotty criticism from people who probably couldn't hold a tune in a paper bag. people simply won't stand for it'

this debate over what is racism pales in comparison to the poor sods who have poured their lives into English folk clubs to have some anonymous herbert tell them, they werent actually performing folk music.

its basically the same clever dick rattiness over semantics. i know what something is - you don't - and i pronounce judgement on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:45 PM

"this debate over what is racism pales in comparison to the poor sods who have poured their lives into English folk clubs to have some anonymous herbert tell them, they werent actually performing folk music"

This must rate as the most inane, insensitive, thoughtless sentence that has ever been placed on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:06 PM

well i see we have with us yet again a judge of human frailty.

what i was saying is that mudcatters have spent more time rubbishing the honest sincere efforts of English folksingers than they have debating racism.

the weight of evidence is on my side this time

when i need one well versed in inanity thoughtlessness and insensititivity - i will know who to turn to - avery solomon of the inane insensitive and hurtful thoughtless and bloody nastiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 03:54 AM

" I know what something is, you don't"

Excellent point. They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance!   Only you KNOW what you mean, AND have denied any offensive intention.

Should be end of story with full apologies. Then there's the "thought police"   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:03 AM

So you will not tell us what you think or tell me what I can do to help? But you intend to carry on this vendetta? Ah well. At least I tried.

Out of interest, I know Mulvaney's lounge, off Chapel Street somewhere if I remember rightly, but I have never come across the drill hall vaults. Where in Salford is (or was) that?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:28 AM

This morning I had every intention of letting this thread go and then Ake sticks his oar in.

"They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance"

Well Ake, someone THINKS they can decipher where someone comes from just by looking at them. Now if the person being looked at where black they may be from Africa, they may be from Trinidad they may be from Manchester but you are quite happy to defend that are you not. In your book that is not arrogance that is perfectly alright isn't it.

Give your head a shake.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

were not where

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

try and imagine mudcat, if the elder statesmen of the brit folk revival came and sat own by the cyber campfire like the yanks do and just shared their memories and thoughts.

they don't. mention mudcat and they laugh - why put yourself through grief with gang of idiots, they ask.

and the reason is - you keep up this bombardment of specious criticism.

if a person is sexist, racist , plain old and daft - that's their problem. nowt to do with you.

there are one or two folks on mudcat who are too old and certain they were born in a state of political correctness ever to mend their irascible ways - you know who i mean. you guys - just try to raise the tone of the place instead of learning from the worst examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkjfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 09:39 AM

"Excellent point. They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance!   
Only you KNOW what you mean,"

errr.... "no man is an island"...???

If something is said that sounds dodgy, then by reasonable educated deductive judgement
it may indicate the speaker to believe in that something dodgy.
If that dodgy thing is said by the same speaker on more than a few occasions,
that may indicate the speaker holds with dodgy beliefs, ideology, and political persuasion...

The onus is on that speaker to communicate their thoughts more clearly so they are not misunderstood &misconstrued...

So not necessarily 'bloody arrogance' by any means....

Though it could be considered 'bloody arrogance' to accuse a person in public
of being that 'something dodgy' if there is so far insufficient evidence....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 10:53 AM

Or... more succinctly - It is necessarily drummed into school pupils, FE students, & undergrads
that "Well... I know what I meant.."
is simply not good enough for good effective communication of ideas and intent....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 11:14 AM

well of course you wouldn't allow racist talk in your front room under any circumstances. and you'd walk away from it in the pub.

you have to walk past it in the supermarket on the front page of the daily mail.

but when it gets to the point that people are saying i'm ditching a great project like a folk music site because i don't want to be embroiled in endless fucking silly arguments about my suspected sins. this song isn't politically correct. that song isn't REAL folk music.

well then at that point. ithink some people ought to be examining their consciences.

they couldn't have created something great mudcat, and they are fucking it up and dragging it down.

really its pure bloody vandalism and negativity. everyone who actually goes to folk clubs and talks to the artists knows this is the case.

if you don't know the artists, don't go to folk clubs. don't give a shit about mudcat and its aspiration to provide an open forum for folk music people. why are you here.

there are sites where you can kick up shit and cause trouble. they will welcome you. you've outlived your welcome here though.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 11:43 AM

Al, who do you actually mean by 'you' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:24 PM

if a person is sexist, racist , plain old and daft - that's their problem. nowt to do with you.

That is indeed a very good point, Al. But by the same token that people should be allowed to say sexist, racist, plain old and daft things, others should be allowed to comment on them. There is no such thing as free speech for some but not for others. It is an all or nothing situation. People on Mudcat are allowed to say what they like. Others are allowed to comment in a way the see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:31 PM

Still can't find the Drill Hall Vaults in Salford, BTW. All I can come up with on Google is the actual drill hall. Might you have been mistaken about either the name or place? I am intrigued!