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BS: Football World Cup 2006

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Wolfgang 01 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM
Wolfgang 01 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM
Escamillo 01 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM
michaelr 02 Jul 06 - 12:13 AM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 03:00 AM
Rasener 02 Jul 06 - 03:31 AM
Cathie 02 Jul 06 - 03:46 AM
alanabit 02 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,DB 02 Jul 06 - 04:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 06 - 04:39 AM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 05:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 06 - 06:12 AM
Divis Sweeney 02 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM
ard mhacha 02 Jul 06 - 06:42 AM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 06:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 06 - 07:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM
captainbirdseye 02 Jul 06 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Ally 02 Jul 06 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Ally 02 Jul 06 - 07:52 AM
fat B****rd 02 Jul 06 - 07:56 AM
Les from Hull 02 Jul 06 - 08:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM
Folkiedave 02 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM
alanabit 02 Jul 06 - 12:53 PM
alanabit 02 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM
The Shambles 02 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM
captainbirdseye 02 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM
Rasener 03 Jul 06 - 01:08 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 06 - 02:02 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 06 - 02:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jul 06 - 02:49 AM
Rasener 03 Jul 06 - 04:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jul 06 - 05:19 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM
Folkiedave 03 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM
Rasener 03 Jul 06 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,Sandeman 03 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 06 - 06:35 AM
GUEST 03 Jul 06 - 08:48 AM
Wolfgang 03 Jul 06 - 10:09 AM
Wolfgang 03 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM
Paco Rabanne 03 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM
The Shambles 03 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Swollen Bollocks 03 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

Oh fuck, I've lost a very long post by wrong keying. So in a nutshell:

I've seen two good games today.
Zidane the best Brazilian by far (somehow he played with the wrong jersey).
Very deserved win for the French.
Hargreaves deservedly player of the match.
England as good as Portugal even with 10 (an exciting 0:0).
England has now joined Italy with three lost penalty shootouts.
The only English player scoring has German genes (not that I would believe in that; I believe in practise).
Why didn't he opt for Germany when he had the choice (he would be an improvement on Schweinsteiger?

I confidently predict that the semi finals will be Agentina v Italy and England v Brazil. (Shambles)
Not quite as good as throwing a coin, but better than all wrong.

Italy beats France in the final.
Germany beats Portugal for third place.
How do I know this? Well, Klose will likely be top scorer and most often the top scorer has come from the third place team.

Wolfgang (hoping to be nearly as good as a coin throw)


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM

Interesting discussion about practise and luck in penalty shootouts in this old thread (from 2002)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Escamillo
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

A World Cup of surprises, eh? Argentina defeated, Brazil defeated, England defeated, Portugal candidate to championship, our team horribly managed at the last moments (Coach called CRUZ who did nothing and was known to be able of nothing, CAMBIASSO who was too nervous, and reserved the briliant MESSI for a hypothetical semifinal or some misterious reason). Ok, matches of this importance should not end in a penalty series, they should be continued in another match.

99% Argentinians' symphaties now go to Portugal, for their first championship.

Wolfgang, I owe you a virtual beer and my congratulations.
Un abrazo - Andrés in Buenos Aires


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:13 AM

I'm not slagging here, but I haven't seen anything in this tournament to support the much-touted Beckham's rep as one of the world's best players. And Rooney - please, grow up and then come back to play with men.

Brazil are a disappointment, as well. Not anywhere near their previous form.

I am impressed with France, and Argentina deserved a better outcome. And while I think it silly to try to predict the outcomes of games, I feel that Germany-France may be a likely final match.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:00 AM

I confidently predict that all of my confident predictions from now on - will be wrong. France 0 Portugal 7.

France v Brazil was a breath of fresh air and almost managed to lift me from my gloom. Credit to Brazil (and their current manager) for letting France play and to France for taking the opportunity to do it.

I am afraid that very little credit is due to Portugal. They were shown (in their last two games) to be poor side with a manager who encouraged his players that the way to win was to cheat and try and get the opposition sent off. The sad thing is that Scolari so nearly was England's next manager.

The greatest irony is that even by the use of these tactics when they had managed to get only a marginally better England side reduced to 10 men - they still could not win and Ronaldo, the scorer of the last penalty, could have taught Jacque Cousteu how to dive. Ronaldo was a disgrace and should have been sent off long before the Rooney incident and the shoot-out.

If I were living in Portugal and they were kind enough to let me stay there, I am sure that the TV pundits there would have a different view and will see Ronaldo as a hero. TV coverage does tend to be biased towards the home sides. This is a rather obvious fact. And rather than complain about this - I could always move back to my home country where I could expect the TV coverage to reflect my own bias.   

England's players have shown that they are a good Quarter final team. Most of us thought this side was better than that - but the fact that must be faced is that those who thought this - were proved wrong. It would be nice to say that England lost to a better side (as is usually the case) but sadly I do not think that to be the case this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:31 AM

I don't think you can blame Potugal for getting Rooney sent off. He did that himself. He deliberately tried to damage that guys knackers and right in front of the referee. Dumb or not dumb.
I am a staunch England fan and am unhappy that they are not through to the last 4.
We lost becuase we were not good enough. Why oh why do so many people have to use sour grapes to excuse the poor performance of England. Stop blaming the opposition and look deeper at the reasons why England were incapable of producing entertaining football with what looks like an excellent team on paper, but as usual, unable to do it on the park.
IMHO, Rooney lost the match for England with his childish reaction. As somebody said above, he needs to grow up and use his talents to win games. He just can't be trusted to do the job for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Cathie
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:46 AM

How does an old woman like me instill in 8 - 10 year old boys that it is not OK to kick out at others when things aren't going their way on the football pitch, when their heroes do just that?

I can't wait to hear all the excuses that they will have been fed to justify his and ultimately their behaviour.

And if your child had been hospitalised with a broken nose? What would be your reaction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM

Catherine, the simple answer is there is no excuse at all. No one here is defending what Wayne Rooney did. He was rightly sent off and FIFA should also ban him for several more matches.
This was probably the most talented England squad of players we have ever had. It just never all came together. When Wayne Rooney's foot healed quicker than expected, many of us were optimistic that England would play with two world class strikers for the first time in our history. We overlooked the fact that Michael Owen was not fully recovered. That was probably a factor in his new injury, which will certainly take some of his speed and effectively spells the end of his time as a top quality international striker. Peter Crouch gave everything he had. It was never going to be enough at this level.
It is quickly forgotten that in England's case, the penalty shoot outs have always delivered the correct result. Portugal certainly deserved to win last night. They were able to carry out their game plan from start to finish. (If England had one, it was to hide in their own half or to boot the ball into touch as often as possible). They also forced England to play nearly the entire game in their own half. England were good on heroics but were found lacking in confidence, imagination and stamina. That was the same story in all the other heroic failures. Perhaps what England need is a sound thrashing to teach us never to try and play like that again. The penalty shoot outs have always left us room to claim we were unlucky. Truth is, in all of these matches the opposition were very unlucky not to win well in ordinary time. We were beaten by Portugal's reserves last night - and they deserved to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:27 AM

Hey! Now all you football fans can take the "I am a moron" flags off your cars, shut up about f...ing football and give us all some peace!

I know that this is a bit of a difficult concept for you lot to grasp but all the silly flags, air horns, getting drunk and shouting at each other (usually in the middle of the night, in my part of the world) didn't help the 11 grossly overpaid and overhyped prima donnas win, did it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:39 AM

no, but all these things were aids to my personal development.

and take my word for it, we are all better people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

No, but it does seem to be helping the home team.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:21 AM

The formations chosen by the England manager were largely irelevant. As good (or great) players with the will and belief to win, should always be able to lift their performance above any such imposed limitations.

But apart from those forced by injury - the strange formations were chosen largely to try to accomodate what the press told us were two of England's world class players. And had any manager left out Lampard or Gerard (and to a lesser extent Beckham) the press would have howled.

Lampard looked knackered and Gerrard looked nothing like world class. The fact that they were both thought too good to replace - does tend to suggest where the main problem lies. An unfit Beckham at least made a contribution but the England midfield (even with the fine efforts of the much criticised Hargreaves) did not work.   

It seemed that it was either Carrick or Hargreaves - who both played well when they had the chance, but the thought of replacing Lampard and Gerard with them both was not an option. Whatever the formation - the team selected to play should be made from the best players who are playing well and doing what is asked of them. A description that could not be applied to either Lampard or Gerard, who perhaps should not have been selected until this description did fit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:12 AM

Oh come on Shambles. Owen, beckham, rooney...it was more like a bus trip to Lourdes.

They were every bit as bad as their worse critics were saying.

The players who impressed me were joe Cole and Lennon.

I simply refuse to believe that there was any necessity or advantage in taking players who should have been convalescing. It wasn't fair to all the English supporters or come to that, caring enough about the players, as people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

See Beckham has decided to step down as England captain. 120 England fans arrested in Gelsenkirchen. More England fans arrested in Jersey as they attacked Portugese owned businesses and shops. Ten per cent of Jersey's population is Portuguese. It's the second time in the island's history riot police were employed, and the second time the Island was invaded !


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:42 AM

I am not aware that any of you have seen the UK papers this morning some of them are blaming the Argentina referee for sending Rooney off, while others are advising Ronaldo to get out of Man Utd. Have a look at some of the one-eyed letters on Teletex again accusing the referee of bias against England. Rooney for all of his talent is a thug and nothing will remove that from his system,unless he encounters the odd Argentine referee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 06:59 AM

They were every bit as bad as their worse critics were saying.

No they were still good enough to get as far as they have and all the players deserve credit for that. And not (generally) resorting to the play acting tactics used by many other teams like Portugal.

The sides who reach this level are all well matched. It is only the sides who can and who dare to show that little bit extra who will go on to win. Engalnd's players could not do this.

But I am not making any unrealistic claims for the England team. It is those in the press and who are now their worse critics - who having been making these claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:09 AM

Whoever said it was not Ronaldo that got Rooney sent off needs to look at the incident again. Rooney was definitely Yellow card fodder - No doubt. But remember Ronaldo came running over to the ref shouting and waving his arms about. And did you see the sly wink immediatley after? Ronaldo knows Rooney very well and knew exactly what buttons to press to get him going.

He should indeed have had more self control but Rooney, on seeing a 'team mate' who had already had been goading him, pushing even further, did what most of us would have done. Pushed back - much in the same way he must have done hundreds of times in training. My bet is that the ref was going to yellow him but on seeing the blatant push - another yellow - gave him the red.

As I said before I would be very surprised if we see Ronaldo playing at Old Trafford for much longer. Either he or Rooney will have to go. And I don't think Alex Ferguson would be daft enough to ingnore the England fans.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM

well a point of view, like i say, i know sod all. I have the feeling however that on various occasions I've seen those players play better.

there has to be an explanation for that, when the expectations of the nation were raised so high, somehow nothing worked.

Sending a quarter of the team injured was (I think) unforgiveable. there is simply no shortage of footballers in England - and good ones at that.

i don't think I have any insight as to why it was so terrible. But I didn't think it was , as you suggest a good team playing at full stretch. they seemed more like good players functioning badly. Some will say that just how they were made to look by better sides, but I never really felt thay faced great sides.

however i'm willing to stand corrected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:35 AM

I have backed Portugal MY reasoning is that they have a good squad of players,but they have the best coach/manager,They are now through to the semi final and I think that their coach will be able by usingSPOILING tactics to shackle zidane physically, AND be able to tactically outwit the french.DickMiles


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Ally
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:42 AM

good old shrek.There was f... all wrong with his foot when he was sticking it into the portugal players Henry Halls !


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Ally
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:52 AM

Luiz Felipe Scolari has proven he is one of the finest managers in the game. History will record him up there with the late great Ally McLeod.

Scolari could have been the next manager of England if the English press had left him alone. The red tops are to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: fat B****rd
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:56 AM

Good points Dave The Gnome. Superscally shouldn't have fouled but as Alan Shearer said he might "stick one on" slyboots Ronaldo back at Old Trafford.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Les from Hull
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:23 AM

Thoughts on England's (lack of) performance:

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. We needed a lot more effort from players like Gerrard and Lampard, who on the whole, were poor.

Owen Hargreaves played really well. I wondered why he'd been in the team on previous occasions, but this World Cup he played with skill and conviction.

Our defence on the whole performed exceptionally well (except against Sweden on set pieces).

Defeat in the quarterfinal can be laid at the door of that stupid tuber-headed scally. England never pressed hard enough to get the goal, and the players capable of scoring it were not playing well, or not playing at all (injured or left out of the team for a kid who was never going to play). Lampard's many unsuccessful attempts at goal will probably bring a new word or phrase into the Englash language ('he's having a Lampard' or 'I Lamparded it').

In the end we weren't good enough.

One compalint. FIFA promised us a clampdown on 'simulation', but that hasn't happened. The one referee who did try a tighter control of a game (the infamous Netherlands Portugal game) was lampooned by press, pundits and everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

BTW - Anyone noticed a distinct similarity of features between Mr R, a chimp and GWB?

Wonder if he is an illegitimate offspring?

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM

The fact is when we look at our players the team as a whole was lesser than the sum of the parts. For this I can only blame the manager. The turnip was on a reputed £4,000,000. He made so many mistakes in the run-up to the quarter-final like not taking enough forwards; like taking unfit forwards; like taking Walcott; like not knowing his best formation.

Some things need structurally improving. When we arrange friendlies McClaren needs to tell managers who will not release players to get stuffed. We need to use friendlies as practise matches for the full team and not KEEP making substitutes for the sake of it.

We need to choose a team (built around Gerrard/Hargreaves perhaps, both of whom should probably be there next time) with a formation that suits, and stick to it through friendlies and through the European Championships. Cole, Rooney, Ferdinand, Terry are all young enough to be in the next World Cup team as well and ought to have improved by then. I cannot see Crouch in a team despite his good game yesterday. Hi is too easily played out of the game to my way of thinking.

We need to chose players who are the best for a team, not just the best players, as Ramsey did with Jack Charlton.

We need to stop making basic errors - like the goalie hitting long balls to a lone striker, like hitting "Hollywood" passes to well-marked wingers. We need to know how to keep the ball and play through midfield. These players (Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves) do it for their clubs.

We need to watch videos of the Italians defending and learn from them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:53 PM

I agree with everything you say except about learning from the Italians Dave. In most of the big games over the past few years, England have gone ahead early and then tried to defend the lead. We should be seeing a more confident England taking the ball into the opposing half and keeping it there until the goals come. Heroic defence is all well and good when one is forced back into one's own half. With the power available to England at the moment, this ought not really to be happening very often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

Literate and polite in equal measure I see..


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:04 PM

i'M SO GLAD THAT THIS BUNCH OF OVERPAID UNDER TALENTED WANKERS ARE OUT!!!

Is that a reference to Brazil, Spain, Agentina, etc? All of whom were not good enough to progress beyond the quarter finals.

i don't think I have any insight as to why it was so terrible. But I didn't think it was , as you suggest a good team playing at full stretch. they seemed more like good players functioning badly. Some will say that just how they were made to look by better sides, but I never really felt thay faced great sides.

I agree that England did not face great sides and they never looked as if they were going to be able to beat any. But perhaps their exit is easier for England fans to accept than it is for those of Agentina, Spain, Brazil etc - who did look as if they were going all the way?

England and Argentina - unlike the others who have gone out can at least claim to be unbeaten. But however you judge the quality of the opposition at this level - you have to accept that no team - however limited - are ever going to make it easy for the other team to win (with the exception perhaps of Sweden).

The fact that England appeared to look like good players functioning badly - could be due to unrealistic expectations. I suggest this is more likely to be the case, as the effort from the players was certainly there. England showed they were good players - but they were playing equally good players.

The fact is that England, like Brazil and Spain (this time) were simply lacking that extra something required to progress - the edge that makes the difference. Perhaps it is just as simple as not having the required good luck - with injuries and form?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

Never saw TheBigPinkLad as quiet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

Owen Hargreaves played really well. I wondered why he'd been in the team on previous occasions, but this World Cup he played with .

I think the question was not why he had been in the team before but why he was ever excluded from it.

For it tends to be forgotten that up to and during the European Championship finals - he was a regular first choice team member and playing with skill and conviction, until he was injured early on. After that - for some reason - he was thought only good enough for bit parts, mainly playing out of position and as a result, not getting very good write ups.

I suppose international managers have many problems that club ones do not. The first option is to always choose the best and in form players in their favoured position or to attempt to build a team (and team spirit) from players who get on and who can adapt.

The second option is the best one for teams with fewer players to choose from. England's problem is always that it has enough players to provide at least two equally talented sides but now seems unable to produce the one great one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM

Iam pleased england were defeated,if they had won the world cup everybody would have been saying they were as good as the 1966 team,the      current manager was inept overpaid and incompetent.the 1966 England team had a manager that knew what he was doing and a side that was better at keeping possession of the ball,plus Gordon Banks,at that time the best goalkeeper in theworld.If England had won the 2006 world cup,it would have been a travesty,as they havent learned how to pass accurately, consistently, and how to keep possession of the ball.CaptainBirdseye


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

The St Georg's Cross flags all looking a bit sad today, though there are still a lot around. Next door, I noticed, they'd taken their's down, and had it hanging on the washing line instead, all washed and clean. I suppose in a way that's a kind of gesture of defiant hope - move on and get ready for the next time.

I gather from my son whom watched the match in a local sporty pub that he had to to get out sharpish at the end because things went a bit crazy - the telly got wrecked and the furniture was flying and all. That's the down side of them making such efforts to ensure the nutter fans didn't make it to Germany - they stayed home instead...

I'd have liked to see how the England team would have managed against the French though. On the evidence of Saturday's matches, not too well. Anyway, Allez les Bleus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 01:08 AM

Wouldn't it be nice, if all the english newspapers, instead of spending the next few weeks discussing the pros and cons of Englands efforts, just put a boycott on all talk of the England Football Team.

It would be so nice to move on and read about other things in sport.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:02 AM

the 1966 England team had a manager that knew what he was doing and a side that was better at keeping possession of the ball,plus Gordon Banks,at that time the best goalkeeper in theworld

I don't disagree with the point being made but perhaps comparisions should always be made for all teams. For example, compare the 2006 Portugal hero with the 1966 one.

Portugal's great Eusabio was not only universally admired for his wonderful skills and goalscoring but probably just as much for the fine example of sportsmanship that he always demonstrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:45 AM

Christiano Ronaldo is a sly little winker...............


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:49 AM

well not really Villan.

as I've said before, I don't know much about football, but I can see it means a lot to an awful lot of people. and I think theres a feeling abroad in the land that the country wasn't represented the way it would have liked to have been.

If they'd played well and given a respectable display and then got beat, fair enough. But I suspect it didn't feel much like that to the average England fan. Strange stuff was going on. Think for example, about all those shots at goal by Lampard - what WAS all that about?

Whether it was at player level, manager level, club level.... I don't know. But I can't think of a better time to hold the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:20 AM

Well Al, you won't find a more staunch England supporter, but am sick and tired of all the media publicity.
We lost, we didn't play particularly well, we expect so much, but hey lets move on.
People can debate it till the cows come home, but it ain't going to change the result or put right anything that was wrong.
Its over done and dusted, put it in the drawer till the next time we think we can beat the world, with a team on paper that looks great, but fails to fulfil.

Its time to enjoy Wimbledon, Twenty/20, and dare I say it, watch the remaining four best teams scrap it out to see who will be the worlds best country team. I think France will win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:19 AM

Maybe you're right. I still believe the Germans have got it right, they consistently get people to underestimate them.

Which considering their record, has got to be something they work on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM

We lost, we didn't play particularly well, we expect so much, but hey lets move on.

England did not play well - their supporters do expect so much (if only the same as any other supporters do) and should indeed move on - but the England team did not lose.

Despite a midfield that could not support either the attack or the defence very well - England remained unbeaten, conceeded only two silly goals (that did not matter anyway) and even with a weakened attack, managed to score 5 goals. One of which was one of the best of the whole competition..........

And despite playing sides whose intention seemed to get England players issued with yellow and red cards - they finished low in the table of warnings issued. Not surprisingly, Portugal currently top this particular table. Let us hope that is the only one they will finish top of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM

The St Georg's Cross flags all looking a bit sad today, though there are still a lot around

Thanks goodness some are still flying. How else can we identify bad drivers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

The table of cautions issued (so far).

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/stats/detail.html?section=tdc


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:22 AM

Stop whinging shambles and get on with life (meant in a nice way :-)   )


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Sandeman
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM

England was really lucky to get to keep the goal by Crouch as he fouled the defender by leaaning on his shoulder and hair. Croutch should have got a yellow card and he would have then missed the next game so justice in the end won and England is out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:35 AM

The German Police Chief said,
``It's been an extraordinarily positive contribution made to the tournament as a whole by English supporters,'' he said.

``The English fans said before the World Cup that they are the champions in partying,'' said Gerd Graus, spokesman of the organizing committee. ``They have proved that here.''

FIFA communications director Markus Siegler said: ``We can only commend the German authorities for the fantastic job they've been doing. In general, England fans are among the best in the world.''

Would Billy McKinley or his puppet master care to admit that they were wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:48 AM

Despite what the British press are saying about Ronaldo his silky dribbling skills and pace provided a big hit with numerous moments of excitement throughout the World Cup. Why do so many act like children at blaming him. Rooney was the villian. Accept it, ENGLAND IS OUT OF THE WORLD CUP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:09 AM

Some remarks about the German penalty shootout "luck"/ability:

Germany lost the European final (76?) on penalties and has not lost since. Why? Preparation and exercise.

Revisit the link I have posted to the 2002 discussion and Ard Mhacha's thought after a dismal Irish penalty performance about why it is not worth exercising penalites. That's the Irish approach we know from many rebel ballads: Blame ill fate, bad luck, traitors and never the own preparation. Go home beaten but proud and hope for the sons to prevail next time.

In Germany, it started with former national goalie Andy Köpke. His record was close to 50% penalty killing and in some seasons over 50%. He had (his own? or) access to a database about the penalty taking habits of all players in the German league (and beyond). He knew who was aiming each time at the same corner of the box. He knew who would change the corner after a miss and who would after a goal. He knew in which players the angle of running to the ball predicted the correct corner. It does not help each time, but to know the habits is better than a fifty-fifty guess. Do you know the present job of Köpke? He is the German goalie coach with the only task of preparing the goalies.

Have you seen Lehmann pulling a piece of paper out of his socks and reading it before the shootout? Was it his laundry list or the goalie's prayer in times of need? No, it was the goalie coach's predictions about the corner the Argentine players most probably would aim at and an advice whether standing still or moving about would make them less more nervous. Out of four times, Lehmann was four times correct in the choice of the side and three times could touch the ball. The rest, but only the rest, is luck and ability.

That's the preparation on the goalie's side. On the penalty takers' side, there are still teams (like England for instance, as we have read in the newspapers) who prepare for shootouts like for the normal penalties during the game. All players stand near the penalty point and whoever feels like takes a shot. As if the FA would not have the money to pay a psychologist. But rather I think that's the Ferguson approach: A loud voice is better than any psychologist.

The difference is, in the game there is a small pause between the foul and the penalty kick. So whoever feels strong enough grabs the ball may be good enough there. But in a shootout you are perhaps shooter number four, so it means you have wait for several minutes before it is your time, long enough to build up fear of failure. Think of climbing the 10m tower in the swimming pool for the first time with the intention to jump down. It is much easier to jump quickly without second thoughts than to wait for 6 minutes and jumping then after having seen some beautiful and some failed jumps. Your heart will beat faster after a 6 minutes wait when you finally marched to the end of the board.

The good penalty taking teams exercise the shootout in a different way. All players are in the middle circle and then slowly walk the long way to the point from the middle circle. Loudspeakers simulate the noise of a supporting or adversarial crowds. The shooter may not shoot when he feels like but only at a sign from the "referee". Refereee correcting the position of the ball (goalies attending their shoes) is introduced at irregular intervals. The idea is to make the exercise situation as similar as possible to the real thing so that the player already knows how loud his heartbeat can become on the long way from midfield to the point. Sometimes, fear of failure is introduced as well (could be money, but even better would be that he has to do something he dislikes like attending a press conference when he fails).

It has nothing or not much to do with luck but with a good realistic training and with preparation and knowledge. All other claims like the goalie's quick reaction or his stare or that he trusts his feeling are nonsense meant to fool the opponents. If all teams would prepare this way then it would become luck again that decides. Nearly one third of the games in which a shootout can decide are decided this way, so nobody should say they are very surprised when it comes to that.

Speaking about preparation, maybe in England this story is not so well known yet: In 1970, in Mexico, Germany had a very difficult quarter final to play. The opponent, England, did exclude all public, press, and officials from the last training. That makes sense, for in the last training often some standard situations like freekicks and corners are fine tuned. Only the Mexican soft drink vendors were allowed on the field. One of them, under his sombrero, had a darker skin than he normally had and gave the English players the coke only with a nod and a smile because he couldn't speak a word of Spanish. But he could speak English in addition to his native German. Whether this ruse actually has helped I don't know.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM

In 1954, a player did run 4 km within the 90 minutes, today they usually run 12 km. Who has to run where and when has been exercised thoroughly. The safety net to suppress any creative play in the midfield gets better every four years. Three out of the four teams in the semifinals have only one single attacker. These teams between them have allowed five goals against them in altogether fifteen games.

I think it is time to think seriously about restricting the number of players to give creativity more room.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM

What football? Have I missed something?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Germany lost the European final (76?) on penalties and has not lost since. Why? Preparation and exercise.

I do so hope that is tempting fate.

When players like Lineker and Shearer say that there is no way to prepare for that moment, I tend to accept the views of those who have stood in this position - with the weight and expectation of the whole nation on your shoulders.

Mock crowd noise, PA annoucements and playing to the whistle may be a little help with confidence in order to prepare for the real thing and goalkeeper's notes may reduce the odds od diving the wrong way, but there really is no getting around the fact that the outcome of penalty shoot outs will alway be down to luck. And that a toss of a coin would be a kinder way of deciding drawn games. I am sure the German team would practise their skills at tossing and prepare for that also.........And claim this influenced to outcome?

Yes you can always practice jumping off a burning ship into an icy ocean and make this as realistic as possible - but no one knows how pressure of the real thing will affect even the most experienced of sailors. The same is true of shoot outs and the most skilled of footballers. The list of great footballers who have muffed their shots and keepers who guess wrong is a long one.

However, confidence may be a factor. The German team can take confidence from their past record in tournaments- other teams cannot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Swollen Bollocks
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

All of you whinging English it was worth these swollen bollocks to help defeat the biggest parcel of weepers in world sport, it is really delightful to listen and read of the many excuses since poor old England was dumped out.

For the sake of my poor bollocks please go away somewehere and hide, the rest of Europe are delighted to see you go,and take Motson and all of the other white eyes with you, thanks Wayne as I now look down on the biggest pair of ball in Portugal.Caravhel


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