BS: The suffering Palestinians

Subject: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:14 AM

Is it Israel, or is it their fellow Arabs who are worst persecutors of the Palestinians? Read about it by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:03 AM

Sigh, NYC. I most probably won't stop it by my post, but we have been through that often, for example in this thread.

Whenever the question of Palestine/Israel comes up the opinions are so strong that no amount of information can change them. The site you have linked to seems to me to portrait history in a somewhat slanted way, more by omission than by wrong statements. You can read in the old thread that a different position can be argued for.

Soon, Carol will post here what she sees as the real truth (which is in my eyes at least as slanted as the site you have been linking to).

Most of us don't post to the history of that conflict any longer for these threads attrack outright anti-semites as Dreaded Guest and, in the best case, after a short time the debate becomes a link throwing match with Carol winning by exhaustion of all remaining opponents.

Read some of the old threads and you'll see that a rational discussion of that conflict here is not possible.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:21 AM

Regretably, I agree with Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: AggieD
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:58 AM

Me too.

Does she put the same energy into condemning the likes of Mugabe who has been starving his own people for many more years than have been reported by the International Press?

These people & many more of them do not live in 'occupied territories' & would consider themselves extremely lucky to have the sort of life that Palestinians, if they lived in peace would have.

Oh dear am I being controversial again?!!

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:32 PM

I have decided to never again argue with CarolC. In the thread about the death of Mohammed al-Dura, which I started with a link to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, a mainstream magazine, CarolC said, "GUEST,YA, I can't help but think that you and GUEST,New York City are in reality, virulent anti-Semites who are posting this kind of trolling as a way of making Jews look bad."

What an offensive thing to say to someone. She accuses me, a Jew, of being an anti-Semite because I posted a mainstream link that questions the orthodoxy of her anti-Israel views.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:59 PM

So this thread is actually a "lets complain about CarolC thread". Interesting. I won't be able to play with you fine folks for a while because I'll be out of town after today.

Does she put the same energy into condemning the likes of Mugabe who has been starving his own people for many more years than have been reported by the International Press?

I put the same energy into any situations that I am aware of in which non-action makes me complicit. And the situation in Israel/Palestine makes me actively as well as passively complicit, since it's my tax dollars that pay for the attrocities being committed against the Palestinians.

When my mother was fighting for civil rights for Blacks here in the US back in the 1960s, she encountered people like those of you here on this thread. They called her names like "nigger lover" and accused her of all kinds of bias and other terrible things. Well, call me whatever is the equivalent of "nigger lover" in this situation, and accuse me of bias. I'll wear those badges proudly, while the rest of you make yourselves complicit, both actively as well as passively.

Plus, I don't continually encounter people here in this forum who are trying to justify the actions of Mugabe. I do however, encounter a lot of people who are trying to justify what the Israeli Government is doing to the Palestinians. And that's the only time I ever speak up about it here in this forum. I have never started a conversations on the subject myself. And, it may surprise some of you to know that when I have encountered Jew bashing here in this forum, I have spoken up about that, too.

I'm a human rights activist, and proud of it. And when I die, I'll die with a clean conscience, knowing that I didn't allow myself to be complicit. So go ahead and throw that mud. It won't stick anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:36 PM

I'm a human rights activist says CarolC.

Posting propaganda links ad nauseum on a discussion site, and making excuses for terrorist suicide bombers. does not make one a human rights activist.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:59 PM

I do see your point, Wolfgang, and I agree with you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 02:10 PM

Posting propaganda links ad nauseum on a discussion site, and making excuses for terrorist suicide bombers. does not make one a human rights activist.

Well, GUEST, you don't even have the backbone to post a real name, so why should I care what you think? You're also a very bad liar.

So, DougR, you can have fun with the rest of these guys behind my back now, because I'm heading out of town, and I won't be here to defend myself.

What a bunch of brave people you are.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:01 PM

I'm wondering if Guest NYC or anyone else here really expects anyone to change their opinion about a situation like this after reading an article or a few posts on a forum ? Really ? Most folks have made up their minds already about this problem and about gun control, and abortion and all the other hot button subjects. So what's the point ? To just stir up shit ? If so - great job. It takes up a lot of space though.

Really folks - I'm interested. Whats the freaking point ??

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:55 PM

Don't worry CarolC - I've marked this thread. You can't run away from it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: michaelr
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:24 PM

Carol -- re: your 12:59 post: Bravo. I'm with you on this one.

NYC is an obvious troll. Let's not feed him any more.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:25 PM

What, you're planning a vendetta campaign against me, Gareth? Last time you tried that, you just ended up making yourself look like an ass.

If the best you people can do is to attack me, instead of my arguments, seems to me you haven't got much of an argument yourselves. What's that phrase, argumentum ad hominem (sp?)? You guys must be feeling pretty guilty or pretty desperate right now to have such a strong need villify me. Myself, I prefer to discuss ideas rather than to attack people with whom I disagree.

Signing off for about a week and a half now. Here's your chance to really go for the jugular.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:25 PM

Ten-Four, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:29 PM

Run away CarolC Run Away

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: TIA
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:45 PM

If CarolC stated opinions without links to sources, wouldn't you be crapping on her for that? Dismissing provision of sources as a "link throwing match" is, to me, a concession that you are not interested in data -- damn the facts, full speed ahead. I've not been around here too long, but occasionally, when I've posted a link, I'll be damned if CarolC hasn't actually read it and commented! Not sayin' my links are particularly important, but it seems that she's reading what other people are throwing, so she's got the right to be doing some throwing herself.

Oh, what the hell am I saying...seen one vase, seen 'em all. Curse you CarolC for exchanging information! You must be one of those educated blue stocking women who've been spoiled for your real purpose by book learnin'. Please keep your opinions to yourself - this is a discussion forum fer chrissakes. And please, no more references..it's just too damn pointy-headed scholarly.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: mg
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:27 PM

Yes, the Arab countries, and I am not sure that Lebanon is officially, totally one, should do and should have done more. Also the Palestinians are not blameless, certainly for the violence, but also for refusing to leave the camps and be repatriated elsewhere, if I am not mistaken. I am no historian and am never mistaken for one. However, she is an educated woman, and she or her editors should know, as I know, as anyone who does a baby-level internet search knows, that referring to making the desert bloom, particularly referring to oranges and olives, is very insulting to Palestinians and their trials. They were world-famous for their oranges, and I have personally made the accidental aquaintance of two now elderly Palestinians who had and lost orange groves. It is like ripping their hearts out. So I find the title of this thread to be either serious or insulting, and I find the editorial to be both true in some respects but also insulting. There is no reason to insult people when it is not necessary. It might be necessary to insult Palestinians for their violence, but it is not necessary to insult them for their agricultural prowess or seeming lack thereof.   What do I know...I am only Irish (American).    mg

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:44 PM

In the past I have expressed my feelings that violence cannot be condoned on either side of this conflict. But I have now seen enough! No, make that, ahhhh, more than enough...

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the Palestinians are so grossly overmatched that they are fighting in the only way they can.

This is so sad a commentary on a failed US foriegn policy....

Can I condone a suicide bombing? Well, no. But I can see the helplessness of a people who some 50 years ago were told to " Get out of Dodge".

Maybe some of these folks who think "occupation" is God's Will syhould consider how they would feel if some asshole knocked on thier door and told them to get the "Fu*k out".....

And now my government, for which I pay taxes, is doing the same thing in Iraq.

Makes this ol' hillbilly sick to my toes....

Sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:53 PM

CarolC, I'll take a look in occasionally and put in a good word for your argument. Why do most Americans not understand the Israeli/Palestinian "problem?" Because they are doing the same exact thing to the indigenous populations in North America. Put them on reservations, treat them like children (reservations are managed [horribly] by the federal government), condemn their occasional violent outbursts when they've been pushed too far. Pass laws like the Dawes Act, and make it worse every so often with events like Pine Ridge (a la Leonard Peltier vs. the FBI). Steal land with impunity. Sound familiar?

A critic isn't Anti-Semitic if they see the Israeli colonization of Palestine as an aggressive, violent act supported 100% by the United States. He/She is honest. But that doesn't get one far, especially when the christian right is pushing as hard to support Israel as the Jewish Defence League and many other Benevolent Societies are. Like the American Irish supporting the IRA. There is a disconnect between what the New World population understands and what is actually going on in the Old World. There's an emotional, museum-quality, archaic disconnect.

A Jewish feminist friend of mine regularly sends me links to discussions going on among Jewish Americans who are appalled at what is boing done to Palestinians in the name of supporting Israel. There is a peace movement here an in Israel, but it gets virtually no airtime.

George Dubya Bush and his lackeys aren't making it any better.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:41 AM

It should be remembered that originally the state of Israel was never meant to exist. Under the Sykes-Picot Plan the area was supposed to be under international control (British Mandate from the League of Nations). As laid out in the later Balfour Declaration a Jewish 'Homeland' was to be established - a homeland, not a state. Conditions for the setting up of this homeland relied on controlled immigration of Jewish people.

Those controls went out of the window in the aftermath of the second world war. The Jewish immigrants founded their terrorist organisations to fight the British, who were trying to keep immigration within the agreed bounds, and to protect themselves against forces of the Arab League, who quite rightly saw the massive influx of immigrants/refugees/displaced persons as a threat.

When the British left Palestine at the end of the Mandate period, the Jews arose and declared the State of Israel - this State of Israel was immediately recognised by the United States of America AND by the United Nations. It was around this time that the USA gave the firm commitment to Israel that it would support and protect Israel.

The Palestinians who were displaced and became refugees, fled to Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. None of those countries offered any hope to those refugees of citizenship, they preferred to take the stance that the creation of the State of Israel was illegal and that a Pan-Arabic movement would combine to drive the Israelis into the sea and give the land "back" to the Palestinians. They tried in 1956, 1967 and in 1973. By the time of the defeat of Syrian and Egyptian Forces in 1973, the Pan-Arabic movement went into a sharp decline, it's only supporters after Egypt made it's accord with Israel were the late President Assad of Syria and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

What SRS says above is perfectly true - Israel was, and still is, supported 100% by the USA - but that support was condoned 100% by the United Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 May 03 - 08:13 AM

For years, The US has justified aid to Israel by saying that they are the staunchest ally, in the region. For three billion dollars a year what does the US have to show. Their staucnest ally can't fight by their side because the only thing that the rest of the region agrees on is their hatred of Israel. Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Israel's right, engages in terrorism everytime the rest of the country tries for peace. Israel shots children in the street and bulldozes houses, then has the nerve to ask for help in fighting terror. Sharon is a thug in a league with Hussein. What's worse is that he thinks God is helping in his thuggery. If God has promised Israel to the Jews, let God deliver it to them. George Bush is not God. Aid to Israel should be in proportion to their willingness to make peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,Phil McGraw
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:55 AM

It would appear that CarolC did not take Jack the Sailor with her on vacation. Trouble in the Georgia paradise?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:36 PM

Teribus-The Jewish terrorist organizations, such as Irgun, were formed before WWII, trying to open immigration so that Jews could get out of Europe before they were rounded up into death camps. I'm not condoning their tactics, but their aims were perfectly legitimate, and the British government's adherence to tiny quotas made them complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of European Jews.

When the UN partition plan was made, there were supposed to be two states. The Israeli War of Independence, started by the surrounding Arab nations, put an end to that plan.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:59 PM

FYI:—

Some years back I sat in on a kaffeeklatch where an Egyptian exchange student made the following comment: "How would you people whose families have resided here in Washington State for many generations feel if the United Nations or some other agency told you, 'this land rightfully belongs to the Indians and we're giving it back to them. You must move. Or if you chose to stay, you must live wherever and however they tell you to.' How would you feel?"

I do not care to participate in this discussion, because, as Wolfgang points out, rational discussion of this issue, at least here, doesn't seem to be possible.

By the way, I keep posting this link, but judging from the quality (or lack thereof) of many responses to arguments or assertions made, not all that many people have read it and understood it. So, as a public service and in the interest of a more well-reasoned discussion, I'll post it yet again:—

This is Latin for "cheap shot."   

Incidentally, after reading and absorbing this page, it would be enlightening and edifying to click on the "Previous" and "Next" links on this web site. Lots of interesting and educational material here.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:59 PM

the British government's adherence to tiny quotas made them complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of European Jews.

The correct number is not tens of thousands, it is 6 million.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:13 PM

JTS: is it safe to assume that when you state "in their willingness to make peace," you mean they should give the Palestinians everything they want?

CarolC: I have a feeling the thread will still be here when you get back.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: polaitaly
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:08 PM

I don't see why they should not give the Palestinian what they want: their land back. After all , they've been invaded 36 years ago and occupied since then, despite one or two dozens of ONU resolution.If what the Israeli governement want is peace (and not to keep the land) they should at least to start making plans to retreat, and bring the colonies with them.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:36 PM

Good link, Don. Few are interested or willing to put themselves into the position of how it really is today for American Indians living a colonized life in North American reservations. Your example takes it to the next step and suggests current landholders see themselves displaced from their homes and current lifestyles. This is happening peacefully (as I understand it) in some areas in New Zealand and with horrible effects in Zimbabwe (by Mugabe, with his rich cronies getting richer and the poor staying poor). You'll see at the link that there is a proliferation of road maps out there lately.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:30 PM

Yes it probably will be here, but whilst CarolC is away it might be the debate will be conducted on a logical, non personal, rational line - thank God.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: mg
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:21 PM

well Gareth since you just insulted her perhaps it won't be non-personal unless you go away too.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:18 PM

Gareth, you missed my link again! As far as I am concerned, anyone who attacks the person making the argument instead of trying to refute the argument itself is attempting to play verbal slight-of-hand. This is not a rational way to discuss. And I, for one, do not waste my time discussing issues with irrational people.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:42 AM

Forum Lurker,

"..and the British government's adherence to tiny quotas.." was to honour commitments and agreements made with the Arabs living in Palestine at the time of the British Mandate (Which was on behalf of the League of Nations and had nothing to do with the United Nations). The agreed quota I believe was 48,000 immigrants per year.

The UN partition plan was made after the British Mandate had expired and after the Jewish settlers had declared the existence of the state of Israel, which as I have previously stated was recognised by the United Nations.

To level the charge of complicity in the deaths of the holocaust victims, I think that you would have to spread your net a bit wider than merely singling out the UK by virtue of its honouring agreements made long before the evils of Nazi Germany manifested itself.

JtS,

A slightly one sided perspective. No mention of Egypt, Syria and Jordans very publically broadcast intentions to eliminate every vestage of the state of Israel. Their join vow to drive the Israelis into the sea (Those still remain the avowed intentions of Hamas). Now considering the time 1947 - 1973, and taking into account what had happened to the Jews of Europe during the period 1933 - 1945. There is no way whatsoever that any Israeli Government was ever going to take such threats lightly - to any Jew such threats are very, very real - they have suffered such an attempt in the past and they have, quite rightly, taken the stance that it shall never happen again. If they do have nuclear weapons/WMD's, and I believe that everyone does believe that the Israelis have such weapons, it is for the reason that surrounded and out-numbered as they are - they are the only nation in the region that needs them to guarantee its own survival. While the United States of America has sworn to protect the sovereignty of the state of Israel, the Israelis, again quite rightly, are not going to relinquish their right of self-defence and place their reliance on survival into the hands of a foreign power.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:19 AM

Sorry Mary - Those who habd it out must be prepared to take it

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 03 - 09:34 AM

Posting a quickie from Lake Charles Louisana. Having a GREAT time.

Wow Gareth! I didn't know you were so obsessed with me. I guess I should be flattered. Out of all of the hundreds of people you could have picked to stalk and harass here in this forum, you picked me! How sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:28 AM

The criticisms of Carol here have been for citing too many sources of allegedly suspect credibility, Gareth. Your deal seems strangely personal. You okay?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:50 AM

One of the things I can't understand is how people can still say things like "The Israelis should give them back their land." They've tried! A few years ago they were ready to sign an agreement that gave Arafat everything he demanded, including a divided city of Jerusalem. Arafat refused to sign. Israel concluded from this that the Palestinian leadership is NOT interested in living peacefully on the West Bank in a separate state. They still want to eliminate Israel and take over. This hardassed right-wing Israeli government is one result of that conclusion.

Arafat is a huge stumbling-block, because in free and fair elections he probably wouldn't win. So he's personally worried about what would happen to him if Palestine became a democratic state. Every bit of power he has is vested in Palestinian non-statehood. I think the palestinian people will ultimately have to get rid of him for any change to occur.

Another thing that angers me is how other Arab nations pay huge lip service to Palestinian suffering, but won't let the Palestinians immigrate into their countries. The utter transparency of this hypocrisy is laughable. They are heartbroken and appalled at 50 years of this refugee situation, but they know perfectly well if they sat down and said, "Let's divide up the Palestinian population and offer them citizenship" there would be no more refugee problem. The worst culprit, of course, is Jordan, which is a nation of Palestinians who won't let the other Palestinians in, but prefer to squeal about the evils of Israel.

I think Israel is far from blameless in all this. But I think the Palestinian situation is too often treated as an "Israeli problem." It is in fact a problem created by other Arab countries' reaction to the formation of the state of Israel. It remains an Arab situation, a problem of Arabs who will not help each other, but instead use each other as weapons in a war to eliminate Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:05 PM

Teribus-You're quite right. The U.S.A., and a number of other countries are similarly complicit, having refused boatloads of Holocaust refugees entry. It doesn't make the British actions any better.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:07 PM

A few years back there were some men forced to live for months in a No Man's Land area between Israel and Lebanon or Jordan--don't remember which zone it was. Anyone remember that? Noplace would take them in; I think they finally returned to Israel.

Israel has some consitutents who are very good at giving with one hand and taking with the other, and usually Arafat is set up between them just as an attempt to sign accords comes around. It's like clockwork. Here's Horsey's view of the process.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:18 PM

G' Heric, no I am Ok. It's the vicious peranal attacks I retaliate to !!! Which seems to be the usaual resort of another Mudcatter.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: AggieD
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:38 PM

I have no doubts that the Zionists from the early days had their sites on Palestine as a place to settle, but they were aware of the back breaking work that would have to go into making it a decent place to live.

There is no doubt that the Palestinians were exporters of oranges pre-Israel, but I would seriously doubt those who believe that it was the land that many are trying to conjur up, where the fertile plains were overbriming with luscious fruit & olive groves.

You want factual articles try reading through this site:http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/c2feff7b90a24815052565e6004e5630?OpenDocument which is the official British report of 1930, & you will see that the British Government were bailing out the Palestinian farmers, to ensure that they were profitable. Yes I am aware that this was in the early part of the Depression, but their were many others who would not have been bailed out, including British Nationals.

My Mother-in-Law was an early Kibbutz worker, during the early 1950's & even at that time the work was back breaking to trying to establish the agriculture of settlements. They were faced, not with wonderfull land that they just walked into & stole from the Palestinians, but fields full of nothing, where they cleared the stones & rock with bare hands & watered it with buckets until they built irrigation systems. They lived hard lives in tents, not in stone houses stolen from the people already there.

Yes they did try to get more people into Palestine than the mandate allowed, because they could see the early stages of what was going to happen in Europe. They had already seen millions of Jews forced out of their ancient homelands in Russia, Latvia, Ukraine, Poland etc. & wanted to know that there would be somewhere they could go where they would not be beaten, tortured, murdered & raped, just because of their religious beliefs.

Yes I do not condone, as many Jews do not condone the building of settlements on the West Bank etc., but as Nerd has said, when they tried to negotiate, not only did Arafat refuse, but a hardline Jew murdered Yitzhak Rabin. At that time the Israeli government were doing ther damndest to get the settlers to stop building & were getting a very hard time of it & subsequently the hard right were let into power.

Suppose Native Americans, suddenly started a campaign of terror to recapture all their ancient homelands & that involved taking homes that you US citizens have, how would you feel? Would you just say "Gee guys, sure we'll move out of this wonderful abode to make way for you to roam in your ancient ways" I very much doubt it.
We may believe that both sides have it wrong, but the hardline Jews are winning out because Arafat & his cronies keep doing their utmost to keep terror alive & not give way on negotiations.

Am I too emotional about the subject? You bet I am. If my Grandparents hadn't been part of that mass emigration from the pogroms of Eastern Europe around the turn of the century, then they would have been part of the mass murder that wiped out just about all of my Grandparents' families.

This is a very emotive subject for all Jews around the world, & although most of us can see the injustice of what is happening in Israel, we constantly have the past, & not just the recent past in our hearts. We don't want to be denied & wiped out, as the Arab Nations would have us.

If people want to be genuine human rights campaigners then I have no problem with that, but please stop believing everything you read, no matter what the source.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:10 PM

What an offensive thing to say to someone. She accuses me, a Jew, of being an anti-Semite

How could that possibly be "offensive"? It's quite impossible for anyone to know that someone posting as "GUEST,New York City" is Jewish in the first place. Anybody can be amnything on the net.

Since the suggestion was that the person making the post was being anti-semitic (in the anti-Jewish sense of that word), tbe presumption would have been that they probably weren't Jewish. This may have been an erroneous assumption, but it means that the offensiveness implied is surely not there.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:16 PM

As I've said before Kevin - Anti Semetic is shorthand for "I'am loosing the argumentand therefore have to result in non original insults".

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 03 - 04:55 AM

Forum Lurker,

"Teribus-The Jewish terrorist organizations, such as Irgun, were formed before WWII, trying to open immigration so that Jews could get out of Europe before they were rounded up into death camps."

The Jewish Terrorist/Self-Defence Organisations:

Haganah - A self-defence miltia organisation created in the aftermath of the 1920 Riots. Disbanded in 1948 with the creation of the IDF

Irgun B - 1931 - 1948: Formed by the Revisionists who wanted Haganah to be more a military as opposed to militia type organisation. Haganah resisted this move, Irgun members were discriminated against with regard to work and access to funds. More militant than Haganah, Irgun B provided the outlet for more aggressive action against both the Arabs and the British, they became in fact a terrorist organisation. For funding they relied on Jewish communities in eastern Europe and in the United States, your contention that they formed specifically to get Jews out of Europe is incorrect - Irgun relied on those communities being in place for funding. Irgun carried out the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948. Menachem Begin who later became Prime Minister of Israel was one of this groups leaders. Disbanded in 1948 with the creation of the IDF.

LEHI (Stern Gang) - 1940 - 1948: Purely a terrorist group targeting the British. They were responsible for the murder of the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte in 1948 and were outlawed by the emergent Israeli authorities. Yitzhak Shamir was responsible for planning the murder - he too later became Prime Minister of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: TIA
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:50 PM

Damn! Perianal attacks? Now THAT'S personal.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:49 PM

CLOUDCROFT — That they were speeding through the school zone first got his attention.

That they had Israeli driver's licenses and expired passports made him suspicious....

"They said this is a U-Haul truck and handed me a rental agreement (for) in-town delivery only in Illinois, (which) had expired two days before," Green said....

"But they couldn't give us an address in Deming they were going to," he said. "Once we got into the truck, they had some junk furniture I wouldn't have given to Goodwill...."

Also inside the vehicle were, Green said, "50 boxes" they claimed was a "private" delivery, but the men insisted they had no "idea what was in them."

At that point, the officers called for drug-sniffing and bomb-sniffing dogs. The men were turned over to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and U-Haul recovered the truck. Contents of the boxes remain unknown, pending investigation.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 03 - 12:30 PM

Gads. Guest 7:49, what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 03 - 07:07 AM

It's quite impossible for anyone to know that someone posting as "GUEST,New York City" is Jewish in the first place.
Anybody can be amnything on the net. (McGrath)

For your information, McGrath: Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins at sundown this evening (Monday) and continues until one hour after sundown tomorrow.

      On this day we (my emphasis) remember the 6,000,000 Jews killed in the Holocaust, the German Nazis attempt to exterminate all of the Jews of Europe.

Personally, I remember two sets of grandparents, and many other relatives, who were murdered before I was born.

was the second post of New York City on this forum.

To call her or him a virulent anti-semite is offensive in my book.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 26 May 03 - 12:16 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang.

I'll also note that Ariel Sharon, despite what CarolC claims about his motives, has now endorsed a Palestinian state.

It was a previous Likud leader, Menachem Begin, who made peace with the Egyptians.

Americans might remember that it was Richard Nixon, the supportive Vice-President of the anti-Communist McCarthy era, who normalized relations with China.

There is hope in these times.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 03 - 02:40 PM

But I can't see how Wolfgang;s post there that in any ways alters the truth of "Anybody can be anything on the net". People put on masks.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,George Bernard Shawshank Redemption
Date: 26 May 03 - 08:40 PM

Excuse me, McGrath of Harlow, can you repair my hamster? It's already May 26 and I have to meet someone at the Mudcat Cafe.