Arabic & African names in English songs & stories

Subject: Arabic&African names in songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:00 PM

First a bit of housekeeping:

The title that I really wanted for this thread was Arabic & African Names in English Songs & Stories but I couldn't get all of that to fit.

Would a moderator please change this thread title to reflect that?

And if so, if he or she wants, this first post to this thread can be deleted.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Arabic&African names in songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:07 PM

The impetus for this thread came about because I went off-topic in a current thread and provided information about two traditional African names-Sambo and Cuff-that are found in a number of 19th century {and earlier?} American and English? {with English=England} songs & stories.

I'm curious which other personal names from traditional African languages or from the Arabic language were used in 18th, 19th, and 20th century English language stories and songs.


Thanks in advance for your participation in this discussion.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:08 PM

Arabic & African Names in English Songs & Stories?
Songs and stories from England with Arabic & African names in them?
Okay! I'll bite. You need some help with a crossword?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:11 PM

Thanks, Mudcat moderator!

**

Songs and stories from England with Arabic & African names in them? Okay! I'll bite. You need some help with a crossword?

No. As I stated in my 2nd post to this thread, I'm curious about this subject.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: curmudgeon
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:21 PM

Sambo, in the children's story, was from India. There are no tigers in Africa.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:21 PM

I don't suppose Aladdin, Ali Baba and Sinbad would count? Although, obviously, they're common, popular stories, they come to us in translation from the originals, in the Arabian Nights.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:25 PM

Your second post went up at the same time as mine. What is it that you're curious about? Peoples names? Maybe enlighten us a little more and we can offer some input.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:26 PM

Bainbo & curmudgeon- Yes! I was thinking of those kinds of examples.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:29 PM

Thanks, Mudcat moderator!

You're welcome.

One from school, "Asham, the tootin' Turk"

Surprised no one has come in with "Abdul Abulbul Amir"

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:34 PM

Here's my post that started me thinking about this subject today:
[with the minor addition of Kofi Annan's full middle name}

Subject: RE: Origins: Coal Black Rose
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:09 PM

Somewhat off topic:

For those who may be interested, see this quote from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=s&p=2 about the name "Sambo":

"Sambo (2)
stereotypical name for male black person (now only derogatory), 1818, Amer.Eng., probably a different word from sambo (1); like many such words (Cuffy, Rastus, etc.) a common personal name among U.S. blacks in the slavery days (first attested 1704 in Boston), probably from an African source, cf. Foulah sambo "uncle," or a similar Hausa word meaning "second son." Used without conscious racism or contempt until circa World War II. When the word fell from polite usage, collateral casualties included the enormously popular children's book "The Story of Little Black Sambo" (by Helen Bannerman), which actually is about an East Indian child, and the Sambo's Restaurant chain, a U.S. pancake-specialty joint originally opened in Santa Barbara, Calif., in 1957 (the name supposedly from a merging of the names of the founders, Sam Battistone and Newell "Bo" Bohnett, but the chain's decor and advertising leaned heavily on the book), which once counted 1,200 units coast-to-coast. Civil rights agitation against it began in 1970s and the chain collapsed, though the original restaurant still is open. Many of the defunct restaurants were taken over by rival Denny's."

-snip-

I've read elsewhere about the African origins of the name "Sambo".
Btw, "Hausa" and "Foulah" are names of two ethnic groups in Nigeria. Other group names for the "Foulah" people are "Fulani, or Fellata, or Foulah, or Fulbe, or Fule, or Peul". From my reading, I'm also aware that a number of enslaved African people in the USA and elsewhere were given African & Arabic names by their parents or others in their community. Three examples of those names are the Yoruba {Nigeria} female names "Tene" {pronounced tah-NAY}, and "Ola" {pronounced OH-lah}-though there are also European sources for the name "Ola"- and the male nickname "Mookie" {probably from the Congolese male nickname "Moke {moh-KAY}, though in the USA "Mookie" is pronounced "MOO-key". But even after the late 1960s and early 1970s custom was established {or re-established} of giving African or Arabic names to African Americans, or folks selecting such a name for themselves, because of its negative connotations, the name "Sambo" is rarely [if ever] given to African American children.
However, the nickname Sam is widely found among African Americans, and the practice of using that nickname may have come from the African name and the Hebrew name "Samuel". As a matter of fact, there are a number of traditional African & Arabic personal names which sound like certain Hebrew names or European names or nicknames.

**

The name "Cuff" which is also used in the "Coal Black Rose" song and elsewhere is a corruption of the Akan {Ghana} male day name name "Kofi". "Kofi means "male born on Friday". Btw, the Ashanti {more correctly written "Asante" but pronounced with a "h" sound} are one group of Akan {Twi speaking} people. A number of Akan day names are found-usually in their variant forms-on slave records in the USA, the Caribbean, and South America. One contemporary public figure who ise named "Kofi" is Kofi Atta Annan, of Ghana, the seventh Secretary-General of the United Nations. "Atta" is an Akan unisex name for the elder twin. "Anan" is an Akan unisex name which means "the fourth born child".


For those interested, here's a wikipedia page with information on Akan names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akan_name

And for those who don't like wikipedia, here's another link to a online resource on Akan names:
http://home.wxs.nl/~degenj/ghana1/gh-names.html

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM

Here's one that I've always liked since I learned it in 6th grade:

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

       -- James Leigh Hunt

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/153.html

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:42 PM

One from school, "Asham, the tootin' Turk"

Surprised no one has come in with "Abdul Abulbul Amir"

katlaughing, I'm not familiar with those examples. Would you please provide more information about them?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:43 PM

Oh! So it's only Black African names you were looking for.
Aren't there White Africans too?
Can we include White African names, Azizi or would including all of them get in the way?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:59 PM

Jim, I just started this thread. On Mudcat, it's my understanding that the threadstarter can not determine which post can or cannot be posted.

Other people posting to this thread may be interested in specific examples of Arabic or African names in English songs & stories. But I'm interested in reading any examples that anyone wants to post.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:15 PM

No problem, Azizi. You're such a nice person really and so sensitive about discrimination that I just wanted to get the ground rules right before I stepped in. You've mistaken me for a bigot, three times in the past so I'm being extra careful.
So let me see if I've got this right.
You'd like us to come up with songs from America & England (White Folks?) that mention Arabic & African names (Coloured Folks) so that you can point out how stereotypical they are.
Well there are lots of Coloured English & Americans and an abundance of White Africans but you seem to have missed that.
So I've pointed it out to you as nicely as possible, just has you would point out such a discrepancy on my part.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:18 PM

With regard to the poem "Abou Ben Adem", here's an excerpt from a Wikipedia article about the meaning of the male name "Abu":

"Ab means "father" in most Semitic languages (in Arabic, Abû), sometimes extended to Abba or Aba...

In the construct state, Abû is followed by another word to form a complete name, e.g.: Abu Mazen, another name for Mahmoud Abbas.

To refer to a man by his fatherhood (of male offspring) is polite, so that abû takes the function of a honorific, and the use of Abu to describe a man will cause his real name to fall into disuse. Even a man that is as yet childless may still be known as abû of his father's name, implying that he will yet have a son called after his father.

The combination is extended beyond the literal sense: a man may be described as acting as a father in his relation to animals, e. g., Abu Bekr, "the father of a camel's foal;" Abu Huraira, "father of kittens." In some cases, a man's enemies will refer to him in such a way to besmirch him, e.g. Abu Jahl, "the father of ignorace". A man may be described as being the possessor of some quality, as Abu'l Gadl, "father of grace," or "the graceful one;" Abu'l Fida, "father of devotion," or "the devout one." An object or a place may be given a nickname, such as Abu'l hawl, "father of terror," (the Sphinx at Giza). Abu'l fulus, "father of money," is frequently used to refer to a place where rumors have been told of a treasure being hidden there."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_(Arabic_term)

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:27 PM

I've just found what I consider to be a fascinating article entitled
"Jewish Names in the World of Medieval Islam."

Here's a longish excerpt from that article {which relates to this thread in that it refers to the meaning of "ben" in the poem "Abou Ben Adhem" :

"Names and naming patterns provide an unique view into the private lives of a community. Much can be learned by a community by the types of names that people give their children and live by. The Jews of the medieval Arab world were very much a part of the Arabic literary tradition and were giving their children names that are drawn from that tradition as well as the Jewish tradition. The Jews of this time period were apparently quite fluent in Arabic and were speaking it in their homes and shops. Some of the great Jewish literature of this period including works by the Rambam and Yahuda haLevi were written in Arabic….

This paper will look at the names being used Jewish men and women in the medieval Arab world with a focus on the community of Cairo Egypt. I will discuss the names that were found and the patterns that they take. In looking at medieval Jewish names one would expect to find a large number of classical Jewish names like Aaron and Avraham, however the data found shows that those names are not the overwhelming majority of names found and that classical Arabic names such as Abdullah are very common among the Jews of medieval Cairo….

The first element of any name is the personal or given name. In the Islamic world Jews would have existed in a linguistic dualism moving back and forth between Arabic and Hebrew, and in some cases Spanish and Aramaic. The names that they gave their children reflect this and represent a mix of forms. Jews appear with classical Hebrew biblical names in both the Hebrew form, and with Arabic cognates of those names which appear to be used interchangeably. Many Jews also appear in the documents with classical Arabic names. The patterns of Arabic names especially among women appear to vary somewhat between Jews and Muslims...

The vast majority of Jewish women in the medieval Muslim world had classical Arabic names...

In addition to classical Hebrew forms in men's names there are many names that are Arabic cognates of Hebrew names. As many of the figures from the Hebrew Bible also appear in the Muslim Koran it is not surprising that many Muslim men had names that are linguistically very similar to many Jewish names. Hebrew names from the Torah including Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, Yusaf, Ayyub (Job), Da'ud and Sulayman among others appear commonly among Muslim men. From the letters examined from the Genizia it is fairly clear that the Jews of this time thought of the Hebrew and Arabic forms of a name were interchangeable. A large number of Jewish names in Arabic forms appear in the lists in the appendix...

The most common formation of a full name from a personal name is to add a father's name to form a patronymic. This is seen in the Torah, and in the Mishnah many of the Rabbis are identified as such. Of the 63 Rabbis mentioned in Perkei Avot, 31 are named by a personal name followed by a father's name, and three more are simply refereed to by a father's name with no personal name at all Ben Zoma, Ben Azzai, and Ben Bag Bag In most of the medieval world names appear in only one language. In the Jews of Arab lands a fertile linguistic mixing happened and names appear with both Hebrew and Arabic elements in the same name...

In the medieval Islamic world this could be formed with the grammatical contraction Ben in Hebrew, or Bar in Aramaic or with the Arabic ibin. In some cases the names have been translated simply with the patronymic indicator as `b.' leaving us to guess which form was used originally. For a woman the Hebrew Bat or the Arabic Bint would be the expected forms. In addition in Spain the Latin Filius is sometimes seen, but probably only in Spanish or Latin Christian sources not in documents written by Jews or Muslims.

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Jewish/Cairo/index.html

Jewish Names in the World of Medieval Islam
Compiled by Yehoshua ben Haim haYerushalmi (MKA Zachary Kessin)
© 2002-2003 Zachary Kessin

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 05:46 PM

Azizi, Abdul Abulbul Amir is a song about an epic (if tongue-in-cheek) battle between a Turk and a Russian Tartar.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:38 PM

Thanks, artbrooks! That was interesting.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: folk1e
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:41 PM

or the futility of war!
Alan Bell wrote a song about an (EX)slave called sambo who is buried at southport (I think)
Anyway they are both "better men than me Gungadhin"..... or was that the wrong sub continent?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:52 PM

It's in the DT.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:04 PM

I think it just has to sound Arabic or African. Clearly, Turks, Indians and Jews(?) can fit too but I still have no clue as to what the purpose of coming up with the names is.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Genie
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:09 PM

Re Abdul Abulbul Ameer, I thought the original title was "Abudallah Bulbul, Ameer" (or "Emir," depending on how you transliterate from Arabic to English."   Anyway, the name not only gets transliterated variously, but it also morphs into many variations of the name itslef.

Would the song "Thaïs," which is based on the opera, fit this category? I don't know what ethnicity the name Thaïs is.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:33 PM

I believe "Thais" is Greek. The opera you mentioned is set in Roman Egypt.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:44 PM

Abu- is not uncommon in Sephardic names as well as Islamic. I know several, including a lady who runs a kennel from which I bought a dog; her last name is Abu-..... (I believe from ibin).

Some of the names in the songs come from Turkish languages, much better known in Europe than 'Arabic' or African before the 19th c., and from languages of the Indian subcontinent picked up during the Raj.
I don't really know what you mean by Arabic names (I think you mean Islamic, Muslim) or African names. Many of those in song are mis-used. "Little Black Sambo" was about an East Indian boy, as pointed out above.

Cuff-Cuffin-Cuffee is an old slang word for man, in print from the 16th century in English but probably older; origin unknown. My grandfather called himself an old cuff, and I am one now. Thus from which source the minstrel name is taken is uncertain.

Sambo is rather firmly African; an early American slave was named Sambo, and he made himself known as an escapee (1704, Boston News Letter). There is the old English slang word 'sammy,' meaning foolish or silly, or a silly man, but this is too big a stretch.   

I think you mean Islamic, rather than Arabic, names. Lets not be bigoted (he, he).
In Arabic and Urdu, Abdul means servant; Abdullah is servant of Allah. Abdul appears in Farsi, but not Abdullah. Also appear in Farsi. 'Ala al din means nobility of faith. Abdullah is present in Turkish, but not Abdul. 'Ali is present in all four.
A good survey of Islamic names: http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/names.html
Islamic Names

I won't comment on African names; too many different peoples involved, too many languages, too many cultures.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 09:01 PM

I don't know if Morgiana is a genuine Islamic/Arabic name. She was the dancing slave girl in Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves. There is a tune called Morgiana and a number of spin offs - Morgiana in Spain, Morgiana in Ireland, Morgiana in England and Morgiana in France.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 10:04 PM

Her Islamic name is Marjana.
The story of the story 'Ali Baba is an interesting one. A Maronite Christian woman from Aleppo (Syria) named Hannah Diab told the story to Antoine Galland, who wrote it down in French. Much later, a manuscript in pseudo-grammatical Arabic was acquired by the Bodleian in 1860. It turned out to be a modified translation of Galland, its author Jean Varsi, a Frenchman attached to the French mission in Egypt. Burton based his translation on the fake Arabic version, and exaggerated the "picturesque turns and novel expressions of the original in all their outlandishness," creating a 'pseudo-archaic style' that is alien both to the style of the Arabic 'original' and to any recognizable style in English literature (See "The Arabian Nights II," translations by Husain Haddawy, 1995, W. W. Norton & Co.).
Is the story Arabic- or Maronite Christian- or Persian- or? This is digression, but it is a question that affects Sindbad and 'Ala al-Din (Aladdin) as well.

"Tin Pan Ali" seems to be a review with several mis-used or bowdlerized Islamic names, including 'Margiana' and 'Fatimona'.

Also see Antoine Galland, "AliBaba et Les Quarante Voleurs."
Antoine Galland, "Les mille et une nuits." Contes arabes.
Antoine Galland, "Histoire d'Alladin ou la Lampe Merveilleuse."
Many reprints, the originals published in 1694 and ff.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 11:16 PM

So I just did a quick search in the Cape Town telephone directory and Found 20 J. Smiths. 133 Smiths in total, 47 Jansens, 46 Browns and wait for it.... only four Blacks.
1-4 of 4 results
Gm Black
0414672
Marla Ct , Bluewater Bay , Eastern Cape
E Black
041467
Marock Ct , Bluewater Bay , Eastern Cape
Rj Black
0215588
Driebergen Ct , Edgemead , Goodwood , Western Cape
Aj Black
0214246
Milner Rd , Tamboerskloof , Cape Town , Western Cape

I didn't look for Greens but there were 5 O'Reillys and 5 Kellys.
Of course I have absolutely no idea what colour they are but I do know lots of songs with most of those names in them. Both English and American.
So, do we include these in your survey or is this just a Coloured thing?

---

Phone numbers and addresses slightly altered, just because we have no particular reason to have personal information for these people here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:03 AM

Jim Lad, I bet your interest is confined to English soccer, er, ruggy football ditties. Stick to that.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:29 AM

Jim Lad, your attempts to be funny (I hope they are that rather than outright rude) are falling very flat. Azizi's thread title, as corrected, is very clear: Arabic & African Names in English Songs & Stories. That is, personal names with roots in the Arabic language or the various African languages which appear in songs in the English language.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:22 AM

Your probably right, Art. Had this post come from anyone else, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
Q: Did you just call me English?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:35 AM

How about Lord Sultan in Anachie Gordon? It sounds like an eastern potentate but that may just be a coincidence.

If it's not just personal names you're after you might find a few North African battles mentioned in 18th and 19th Century ballads. I'm thinking of places such as Abou Kir. What about those songs about Bonaparte on the banks of the Nile?

I dare say most of us have heard Ashanti or two?

I'll get me coat..

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:03 PM

Various comments:

Regarding: "Abu ben Adhem": -I had always thought that the title was "Abu ben Adam". Maybe "Adhem" is the correct spelling of that title, but I'm not sure of that.

**

Regarding "Gunga Din": Rudyard Kipling's 1982 poem was set in India. I don't know the etymology of the name "Gunga". Maybe Kipling made it up. However, the "din" part comes from the Arabic element {or word?} "udin" which means "faith". The Arabic term "al udin" which means "of the faith". Both http://www.sudairy.com/arabic/masc.html and http://www.ummah.net/family/masc.html list the names Ala' and indicates its meaning as "Nobility, excellence" and the name Ala' al Din {Excellence of faith}.

This of course is similar to the definition the website given in the website that Q posted earlier.

Btw, Q, both of these sites use the title "Masculine Arabic Names."The vast majority of Jewish women in the medieval Muslim world had classical Arabic names".
-snip-

And most African Americans with Arabic names aren't Muslim. Fwiw, my name is Kiswahili, an East and Central African language which has a large number of Arabic loan words. And I'm not nor have I ever been Muslim.








Although I've seen the term "Islamic names" used as a referent for "Arabic names", it's my understanding that "Arabic names" is the correct term as it refers to the language and not the religion. Historically, and nowadays there are numerous people who have Arabic names who aren't Muslim. For example, to [re]quote one sentence from my 11 Aug 07 - 05:27 PM post on "Jewish Names in the World of Medieval Islam",

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:10 PM

Sorry, I hit submit too soon, and I messed up with my cut & paste.

Let me try that again:
Historically, and nowadays there are numerous people who have Arabic names who aren't Muslim. For example, to [re]quote one sentence from my 11 Aug 07 - 05:27 PM post on "Jewish Names in the World of Medieval Islam", The vast majority of Jewish women in the medieval Muslim world had classical Arabic names...

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:34 PM

Also, Q, in your 11 Aug 07 - 07:44 PM post you wrote that "Some of the names in the songs come from Turkish languages, much better known in Europe than 'Arabic' or African before the 19th c., and from languages of the Indian subcontinent picked up during the Raj".

See this excerpt from a Wikepedia article about the Turkish language:

Following the adoption of Islam c. 950 by the Kara-Khanid Khanate and the Seljuq Turks, regarded as the cultural ancestors of the Ottomans, the administrative language of these states acquired a rather large collection of loanwords from Arabic and Persian. Turkish literature during the Ottoman period, in particular Ottoman Divan poetry, was heavily influenced by Persian, including the adoption of poetic meters and a great quantity of borrowings. During the course of over six hundred years of the Ottoman Empire (c. 1299–1922), the literary and official language of the empire was a mixture of Turkish, Persian and Arabic, which differed considerably from everyday spoken Turkish of the time, and is termed Ottoman Turkish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language

**

Furthermore, Q, in that same 11 Aug 07 - 07:44 PM post you wrote
Cuff-Cuffin-Cuffee is an old slang word for man, in print from the 16th century in English but probably older; origin unknown. My grandfather called himself an old cuff, and I am one now. Thus from which source the minstrel name is taken is uncertain.

I'm sure that you are aware that words that are spelled and/or pronounced the same often have different etymologies. With regards to the name "Cuffy" being derived from Akan {Ghanaian} day names, see this quote from "Slaves, Free Men, Citizens-West Indian Perspective", edited by Lambros Comitas and David Lowenthal {Anchor Press, p. 37; 1973} [This includes a reformatting list because I don't know how to do columns in this message box] :

"Long gives the day-names, commonly used among the slaves as follows:
Male:
Cudjue {Monday}
Cubbenah {Tuesday}
Quaco {Wednesday}
Quao {Thursday}
Cuffee {Friday}
Quamin {Saturday}
Quashee {Sunday}

Female:
Juba {Monday}
Beneba {Tuesday}
Cuba {Wednesday}
Abba {Thurdsday}
Phibba {Friday}
Mimba {Saturday}
Quasheba {Sunday}

-snip-

Editors Comitas & Lowenthal provie this citation for Long: "Edward Long "The History of of Jamaica" {3 volumes, London; T. Lowndes; 1774; Vol 2, p. 410)

The editors write that "Long went to Jamaica in 1757 at the age of 13 and published his history in 1774".

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:39 PM

I dare say most of us have heard Ashanti or two?

Manitas_at_home, I take it you are referring to this this R&B singer

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 01:09 PM

Oops! I've got another correction {besides the double "this" in my last post.}

Rudyard Kipling's poem "Gunga Din" was published in 1939 and not 1982.

I have no idea where that 1982 date came from. Maybe it was a very good year for me. How old was I then? Hmmm....

Nevermind.

:o)

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stor
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM

Azizi, considering the source, I think Manitas' statement could be parsed as "I dare say most of us have heard a shanty/shantie or two".

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:05 PM

Oh, right.

Sorry 'bout that.

Different cultures, different strokes.

LOL!

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:03 PM

My remarks re 'Cuffee' in the minstrel song were meant merely to indicate that there were other sources for the name- English as well as the African name. I do not presume to know which was in the mind of the composer of that stage routine.

I used "Islamic' instead of Arabic for the names, and selected a site with that heading, because many peoples of that faith object to being classed as Arabic- perhaps like African-Americans now prefer that term to the generic Negro.
Farsi-speakers object to their language being called Arabic, although it is 'Arabicized Parsi,' to use a phrase (the most widely spoken language in Iran- about 50%). The Arabic influence came in about 900 years ago. Farsi Iranians call their language Indo-Iranian. See, the whole world is becoming PC!
The Sephardic Jews, living under tolerant Muslim rule in Spain and cast out with them when the Christians took over, have no objection to calling their Spanish-based mixed language Arabic-influenced.

Here is the list of Female Islamic names. (There are many varied spellings, not taken into account). Sorry, that is not an easy website to move around in, no link from male to female names. www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/names_arabic_female.html

Female names

-din (deen) is complex. It is generally cited as 'way, or path, way of life'; probably Aramaic, the Hebrew word from the same source but via the Persian Zoroastrian word den, which meant the system of ritual practices of that religion.
In Islam, it encompasses the totality of a Muslim's faith and the code of conduct necessary to obey Sharia. In essence the term means Islam. Modern religious writers transliterate -din as deen when they speak of the totality of the faith.
The word can mean (or has meant) mastery, obedience, allegiance.
As I posted earlier, 'Ala al din basically means nobility of faith ('Ala often mis-spelled as Ala'). The ' indicates pronunciation from the back of the mouth, unlike the ' in Hawai'i which indicates a full glottal stop.
The word also has a European origin (see below).

English is the most agglomerative and inventive language in the world, as the 20 thick volumes of the current Oxford English Dictionary show. I doubt that a single language or dialect has not had a word, or words adopted from it and absorbed into English.

-din offers problems since din (dun) from the Celtic-Teutonic-Old English has no relationship with din (Aramaic and whatever divergent derivations and shades of meaning it has when lumped into 'Arabic.').

Getting back to the SUBJECT stated for this thread, I can't think of many surnames or first names of people in the songs. If names of foods and objects other than names of persons are considered, there are many African words.
Songs using Asian and African words, often wrongly, exist and some have been named (Abdul Abulbul Amir- sp.?, etc., but offhand I can't recall many.
There is "Miserlu," a Sephardic song from the Middle East, uncertain provenance, which also got to Greece as a dance. And several with "Ali." But many names seem to be rather recent occurrences in English (Black Muslims, and the revival of interest in African roots, etc.).

Salome and Solomon (Salman) are Hebrew, probably Aramaic, also adopted into Arabic and cultures that became Islamic. The names appear in some songs.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:45 PM

Sambo's grave(referred to earlier in this thread as the subject of an Alan Bell song)is in fact at Sunderland Point near Lancaster(England), not Southport.
There is a popular English fiddle tune called Sultan's Polka(I don't know anything about it's origin). Its first theme is used for the nursery rhyme:
One two three four five
Once I caught a fish alive.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:02 PM

Haven't delved into the history, but I wonder if Sambo's grave in England has anything to do with the escaped slave Sambo who was mentioned in the 1704 Boston newspaper.
Greg, do you recall the date on the grave?

I'll have to look up the Alan Bell song.

Gunga Din was first published in 1895.
The movie was released in 1939.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:06 PM

Somewhat Off-Topic

Ah! greg stephens, your comment about "Sultan's Polka" combined my interest in name origins & meanings with my interest in children's rhymes, and specifically source materials {speculative or not} for the words to and the tunes used by specific rhymes!

I'm wondering what you meant by "Its first theme is used for the nursery rhyme".

Does "first theme" mean the first verse? Or are you saying that the tune used in that nursery rhyme is the same as the first "theme" used in Sultan's Polka?

Through googling I see that Sultan's polka was: composed for the piano-forte 1860 - 1869 by Charles d'Albert.

Does Sultan's Polka have any lyrics?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:12 PM

Sorry; "Barrack Room Ballads" containing "Gunga Din" was published in 1892, not 1895.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

The actual title of Child Ballad #239 Annachie Gordon is Lord Saltoun & Auchanachie. It's not really about a Sultan.

The case of #53 Young Beichan/Lord Bateman is a tad more interesting. Andrew Cronshaw produced a version which he called Sofia The Saracen's Daughter when he let Natacha Atlas and Abdullah Chhadeh work on an Arabic text when they were unaware that the story also existed in the English tradition.

The there's the schottische Nigel Chippindale wrote called Rikki Tikki Tavi (but then Donovan wrote a song with the same name so how much either or both had to do with The Jungle (sorry rainforest) Book is not known.

How about Persian Ricardo, The Black Joak, Brown Adam and The Brown Girl? Or then again, perhaps not.

Ah, I know. Child #287, Captain Ward And The Rainbow. That covers everybody in South Africa anyway.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:27 PM

Okay, I must have read 1892 and transposed the numbers to 1982 and the 1939 date came from the date of the movie....That explains it {"it" being my mistakes with the dates for the publication of the poem "Gunga Din"}...Or, at least, it sounds good to me...

**

Btw, Q. I appreciate the information you've shared on this thread.

Now I've got another theory to run by you-and others.

I suppose that no one could determine for certainity what the playwright was thinking of, but what about Othello?

According to http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Othello,
The boy's name Othello \o-thello, oth(el)-lo\ is a variant of Otto.

The baby name Othello sounds like Atholl, Atwell and Odell. Other similar baby names are Otho and Onjello"

-snip-

However, this may be a case of a name from one language being spelled the same or similarly but having an entirely different origin & meaning.

Apparently, there's a lot of debate among Shakespearean scholars about what the name "Othello" means. See this Oct 18, 2001 comment about Othello's namef rom Karen Peterson on
http://www.shaksper.net/archives/2001/2379.html

"In conversation once the subject of where Othello's name came from and what it might mean (if anything) arose.

I have always harboured a pet theory that it is an Italilanized version of Ottoman/Othoman/Othman, and that the play might be capitalizing on contemporary interest in the Turkish empire following the publication of Knolles's Generall Historie of the Turkes to the rising of the thoman Familie (1603).

...This is very much a part of what [Jonathan]Bate discussed in his keynote lecture to the World Shakespeare Congress in Valencia this past April. A shortened version of the lecture appears in this week's *Times Literary Supplement* ("Othello and the Other", 19 October 2001, pp. 14-15). Bate cites Knolles, and also "recently published books such as Lewis Lewkenor's 1599 translation of Gasparo Contarini's *The Commonwealth and Government of Venice* [and] John Pory's 1600 translation of *A Geographical History of Africa* by 'Leo Africanus'" (14).On the matter of Othello's name, Bate writes, "The audience hears a consonance between the names of the captain-general 'Othello' and that of the general enemy 'Ottoman'. This would have been especially apparent if, as is likely, the original pronunciation of the hero's name was Otello. Othman was the founder of the Turkish empire; Ottoman-ness is thus suggested by Othello's name, but he is turned against the origina implied by that name" (14).

Further, rather than perceiving "the Turks" as a monolithic entity, Bate argues that Shakespeare and his contemporaries, while perceiving all Islamic characters as "other," that they did draw distinctions between Turk, Arab, Barbar and Moorish cultures.

For what it's worth"
-snip-

That's Karen Peterson's ending sentence, not mine. But I'm presenting these comments, for what it's worth.

Well, what do you think about that theory?

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:55 PM

And-just for the record, there is an African male name "Ottah".

"Othar" and "Otha" could be variant forms of the West African male name "Ottah" {0-TAH}". "Ottah" means "the thin one". This name is reported to come from the Urhobo speaking people of Nigeria. It is given to a male child who is born thin at birth. Source: Ogonna Chuks-orji: Names from Africa: Their Origin, Meaning, and Pronunciation {Johnson Publishing Company; 1972} and Sue Browder: The New Age Baby Name Book {Workman Publishing, 1987}.

Btw, I've never met anyone by the name Otha, but in the early 1990s there was an African American male student whose name was "Otha" who attended the same university as my daughter.

If I were a betting person {which I'm not}, I'd bet that the Nigerian male name "Ottah" is the source of the African American male name "Otha". The change in spelling & pronunciation between these two names might be the result of time & cultural/ethnic sound preferences.

Note that I'm not saying that the African name Ottah was the source of Othello's name. I'm sharing this information just because some might find it interesting.

Also, I want to thank fellow Mudcatter Tweed for hipping me to African American fife musician Othar {Otha} Turner.

See http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/musicians/OtharTurner/Turner.html
for information about this Mississippi musician.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:57 PM

TH German and T English. the h is silent in German in words like this:
Thaler -taler -dollar
Theresa -Teresa
Otello -Othello ! The opera Otello by Verdi is Italian, also called Otello in German, but Othello in English, based on the Shakespeare play about a Moorish general in Venice.

Often suggested that it is a form of Otto. Shakespeare didn't confide in me, so I dunno.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 06:40 AM

Sambo's Grave: there is, I believe, no date on the grave.
Azxizi, re Sultan's Polka: my comment on the "first theme" was perhaps ambiguous. It is a three part tune, or at least the version I know is, and the first part is the tune used for an English nursery-rhyme:
One two three four five
Once I caught a fish alive
Six seven eight nine ten
Then I let him go again
Why did you let him go?
Because he bit my finger so
Which finger did he bite?
This little finger on the right.

Subject: RE: Arabic & African names in English songs & stories
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 06:44 AM

I am not sure if this counts as African names in stories in England, but the most African names that those of us with emails see in England are on letters from Nigeria. I had another one this morning, I am afraid I did not note the name. If you have not received one of these letters, I am referring to the emails which purport to come from a Nigerian banking official, who has discovered a dormant account holding several million dollars, and offering a large cut of the money in return for using your bank account to get the money out of Nigeria.