BS: Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

"They include the mass murderers of ordinary people and children."
If that is true, then it is an accusation that can be levelled at both sides - the Palestinians have done have done nothing to the Israelis that hasn't been done to them with a hundred times greater force, with heavy artillery, chemical weapons and by well trained and well armed troops - over a continuing period of 60-odd years.
"I see it as a triumph of humanity, generosity and compassion."
I see it as a totally empty gesture in the light of a blockade of essential goods, annexation and occupation of Palestinisn land, a continuing policy of building settlements (1,500 proposed on land occupied since the six-day war), the maintenance of a 'Berlin wall' cutting Palestinians off from their livelihood and food supply and most of all - an opposition to Palestinian statehood by way of a bullying veto by the world's most powerful nation.
My first entry into this thread was with an article headed
"BEDOUIN PEOPLE ISRAEL WANTS TO RELOCATE TO FORMER DUMP"
That, for me, sums up "the humanity, generosity and compassion" of the Israelis towards those who get in the way of their political and economic ambitions.
What is needed now is the tackling of the real problems BY BOTH SIDES - not window dressing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 02:31 PM

It is true that the freed include those guilty of terrorist atrocities.
The Bedouin in your post were quite clear that the Palestinians were no better than the Israelis.
You Jim are clearly incapable of rational, coherent thought when Israel is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 02:49 PM

It might be a good idea to re-title this thread "The Keith & Jim Show, part ∞" but I figure most people will see a thread with something controversial in the title, notice it's over 400 posts long and just know it's the two of you going at it again/stll, albeit with a little help once in a while.

Forget taking it to PMs because it's not worth it for you without an audience... or more accurately being able to believe you have an audience. You two should just get your own forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 03:39 PM

"It is true that the freed include those guilty of terrorist atrocities."
Unless you have information not possessed by the rest of us, we have no idea whatever of the identities of those to be released; whether they are "mass murderers of ordinary people and children" or Turkish belly dancers; whether they are members of Hamas or just people picked up on one of the incursions into Gaza; whether in fact they are just guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
We have no more idea of who they are and what they've done than we have of the prisoner in Guantanamo.
Personally, I believe that the Israeli administration would be utterly irresponsible and neglectful of its duty of care to its own citizens to let such people loose to "mass murder ordinary people and children" again.
"The Bedouin in your post were quite clear that the Palestinians were no better than the Israelis."
Once again - have you any information regarding the treatment of the Bedouins by the Palestinians.
Updated news on the treatment of Bedouins is that Israel intends to expel 30,000 of them (60,000 according to the Christian organisation's World Post News) - I wonder if the Palestinians could top that one!!
http://972mag.com/israel-approves-plan-to-uproot-30000-bedouins/22814/

http://worldpostnews.com/2011/10/israel-plans-expulsion-of-some-60000-bedouin-palestinians/

"The Keith & Jim Show,"
Jeri
My abject apologies - I really was about to bow out in shame until I got caught up in the obsequious tone of Keith's last posting.
I feel not a little like a rabbit caught in the headlights of a car when it comes to Keith.
We find ourselves on the opposite side of the spectrum and as he tends to direct his postings directly at me on topics that concern me deeply (he has even been known to put up my 'supposed' opinions on threads I was not involved in) I feel obliged to respond.
Short of not taking part in these discussions, I really am at a loss as to what to do - I have tried to ignore whet I believe to be his extremely right wing remarks, but somehow it never has worked out that way.
Once again, my apologies - will try harder,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:02 PM

Unless you have information not possessed by the rest of us, we have no idea whatever of the identities of those to be released;
Key initial releases
Nasser Iteima: Helped bomb Netanya hotel in 2002 - 30 people killed
Walid Anjes: Helped bomb Moment cafe in Jerusalem in 2002 - 11 people killed
Yehia Sanwar: A founder of Hamas militant wing. Serving multiple life sentences
Jihad Yaghmour: Took part in execution of Israeli solder Nachson Waxman in 1994
Mohammed al-Sharatha: A leader of the elite Hamas 101 unit. Multiple life terms
Nael Barguti: Arrested in April 1978 and convicted of role in death of Israeli soldier
Rawhi al-Mushtaha: Senior Hamas leader. Multiple life sentences
Amna Muna: Serving life for luring Israeli teenager to his death

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:31 PM

Jeri.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:25 PM

It is well over 24 hours since there was a post on the subject of Palestine.
This thread is being kept alive by Jim, seeking to restart a closed thread discussion.
I suggest, Jim, that you continue your campaign privately using the pm facility.
I will still answer all your challenges.
The same old answers to the same old challenges obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:42 AM

I must chip in again to point out that J.Carroll, for all his compulsive over&over&overagain quoting of one equivocal & inconclusive statement by Keith on another now-long-ago thread, has no other argument at all; and moreover persists in his accusations of racism, without having replied in any convincing manner to my direct accusations against him of ACUTE ANTISEMITISM, of which I have conclusively demonstrated him culpable.

Motes & beams, Mr Carroll...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:41 AM

"ACUTE ANTISEMITISM"
And you have provided no proof whatever of your accusation of anti-Semitism - I have aimed my remarks at the Israeli auuthorities who I believe do not represent the Jewish people as a whole and whose behaviour has offended Jews both inside and outsid Israel.
Perhaps you would like to address the expelling of 30,000 Bedouins, which is now being openly referred to as "ethnic cleansing" (whoops, there goes my anti-Semitism" again).
A far cry from "All male

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:57 AM

From Wiki.
"Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin deputy consul of the State of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service.[85] Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the state of Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said

I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East"

I also read that, every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:07 AM

For comparison.
"Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves. Mistrust between the government and the Bedouins, some of whom allegedly collaborated with the Israeli military when it occupied Sinai in 1967, continues to fuel negative stereotypes about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:35 AM

Whoops
"ACUTE ANTISEMITISM"
And you have provided no proof whatever of your accusation of anti-Semitism - throughout these discussions I have aimed my remarks at actions of the Israeli authorities who I believe do not represent the Jewish people as a whole and whose behaviour has offended Jews both inside and outside Israel.
My suggestion that there are comparisons to be drawn of the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews, and that of the Israelis towards the Palestinians are a far cry from "All male Pakistanis" being infected with a 'statuary rape implant' (inconclusive!!!) which you have dismissed as being "not racist" while objecting to the potential use of a similar suggestion about Jews.
Your hysterical accusation of "anti Semitism" is one that has been used by others on all these Israeli threads angainst any criticism of Israeli policy, including by some who have put up some degree of argument in support of Israeli behaviour, which you have not.
My dictionary gives an anti Semite as being "A person who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews" - point out where my comments have been aimed at anything, other than the behaviour of Israelis towards the Palestinians - you have ignored requests to do so to date.
The only effect your untrue and unqualified accusations could possibly have on this forum is to make us think twice before we criticise Mugabe (because he is black), Duvalier (because he was black), Gadaffi (because he is an Arab)......
Utterly spineless and dishonest.
Perhaps you would like to address the expulsion of 30,000 Bedouins, which is now being openly referred to as "ethnic cleansing" (whoops, there goes my anti-Semitism" again).
Your continued support for Keith's openly racist statement (explain why it is not, and why a similar example of stereotyping Jews is - another request you have consistently ignored) calls into question your own approach to race and remains both hypocritical and cowardly.
Keith:
My apologies - the Israelis have published a list of prisoners to be released, which includes some active terrorists - I was not aware of this - and withdraw what I wrongly claimed.
My case still stands; "The Palestinians have done have done nothing to the Israelis that hasn't been done to them with a hundred times greater force, with heavy artillery, chemical weapons and by well trained and well armed troops - over a continuing period of 60-odd years."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:12 AM

Apology accepted.

Jeri, he has started again to accuse me of racism and supporting it with false representations of an 8 month old post.
What should I do?
Allow myself to be slandered in public or again point out the deceit in his accusations?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:45 AM

Having made an accusation, I suppose I must support it.

You refuse, Mr Carroll, to take the point that the aggressive expansion which resulted in the present intransigent Israeli attitude [which, I repeat, I deplore ~~ don't make me reiterate yet again, please, my now 3ce-repeated post about even my sister & nephews...] was originally caused by the attempts by six [count them ~ 6] hostile states to prevent by overwhelmingly superior-in-numbers military force to overthrow entirely the State proclaimed on 8 May 1948 WITHIN THE BORDERS ESTABLISHED BY FREE VOTE OF THE UNITED NATIONS, of which five of those six states were members at the time; which destruction moreover remains explicit policy to this day within the majority of those states.

This refusal

-- coupled with constant untrue allegations of causeless Israeli massacres unrelated to these endeavours; together with deliberately and persistently reiterated use on your part of terms which, as has been pointed out to you time & again by others as well as me, are bound to be particularly offensive to all Jews for obvious reasons ~~ terms of baleful association like 'Nazi' & 'Holocaust' ~~ aimed at the Israeli people [not just their government]; and refusal to apologise for the offence thus inevitably caused to Jews in general and not just to the Israeli government (and please leave out your Manchester acquaintance: that old "some of my best friends" bromide has whiskers on it & is always a powerful counter-indicator of one of your persuasion) --

would, to my mind, indicate a strongly adverse interpretation to be placed on your obsessive anti-Israeli animadversions.

If, in short, these manifestations are not to be taken as antisemitic, then how do you think they should be regarded?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:51 AM

"Jeri, he has started again to accuse me of racism "
Keith
You wrote the 'cultural implant' statement - it is on record on this forum as coming from you - without evidence it is racist stereotyping in the extreme - show us where it is not. You claimed it was somebody else's statement - (even if that were true, without evidence it would still be a racist statement, and it would still be your opinion), but you have totally failed to produce evidence that anybody anywhere made anything resembling the suggestion that all male Pakistanis are culturally inclined to statuary rape, in fact witnesses you produced to back up your case warned of the danger of their opinions being used in such a manner as you have used them.
If you have evidence of somebody saying anything approaching a statement so profoundly damaging to a whole ethnic culture, please produce it and I will totally accept that it it somebody else's statement as well as yours, but that will not change the fact that, without proof, it is a racist statement and it was put forward by you.
I may have over-stressed it, but I find it incredibly offensive that anybody should put forward such a foul suggestion about an entire gender of a whole ethnic group, and I feel it relates to your attitude to all Muslims, which is why I raised it here.
Give your proof of the statement and I will happily withdraw my accusation - give your source and quote and I will happily accept that you (misguidedly maybe) took your cue from elsewhere.
Until such time, it remains a racist statement and it remains yours, no matter what blanket support you may have got from elsewhere.
Meanwhile, would you care to comment on the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouins, and would you care to provide proof that similar treatment has been forthcoming from the Palestinians?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:33 AM

Help me out please Jeri.
I do not want to be part of a "Jim and Keith Show" but he is corrupting and misrepresenting one old post to promote this personal hate campaign against me.

Shall I defend myself against the slander?
Do our rules not apply to Jim?
Help please.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:35 AM

While you continue to deny what you have written and refuse to accept its implications, you continue to make it an issue.
The solution is simple - prove it is not a racist statement by providing evidence that it is true, show that it is not your view and you did not put it forward as your view.
As far as I am concerned, there is no further we can go with this at present and am happy to stand by what I believe and leave it there, and would have done long ago, had you not persisted in making claims that I am lying and distorting what you said..
My 'hate campaign' is aimed at racism, I don't know you, nor do I wish to.
Maybe now we can discuss the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins by the Israelis?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:46 AM

I am no racist, as you have been told by other people besides me.
I have never made a racist posts.
If you are going to make such a serious personal attack based on a post, at least give it in full, and account for why some is in quotes.

Or better still, after 8 months of having the obvious explained to you, drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 06:53 AM

Bedouin are treated much worse in Egypt than in Israel, but you only hate Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:03 AM

Stet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:27 AM

"BS: I AM going to be the last one on this thread.. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM

Back on topic
"Bedouin are treated much worse in Egypt"
There is no evidence of this whatever; the treatment of Bedouins in Egypt is just about on par with that of Travellers in Britain and Ireland, poor, but nowhere near 'ethnic cleansing' proportions.
Nor is there any evidence of mistreatment at the hands ofthe Palestinians, which was your original response.
Even if it were true it is no excuse for the ethnic cleansing that is proposed for 30,000 Bedouins by Israel
Excusing atrocities by one nation by comparing them to the the behaviour of another is tantamount to being an apologist for such treatment - racist harrasment is racist harrassment whoever does it Israel's behaviour towards the Bedouins is yet more evidence of their contempt for human rights.
As for my hatred of Israel; I go along with MtheGM when he says; "Which is not to say that I am not embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into" (though I believe Israel to be much further down that road), but apparently it makes me an "anti Semite Jew baiter" if I say so!!
Funny old world (or maybe not so funny)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM

Evidence of Bedouin treatment in Israelthread.cfm?threadid=140399&messages=471#3240066
Evidence of much worse treatment in Egyptthread.cfm?threadid=140399&messages=471#3240069

Bedouin quote showing Palestinians treat them no better than Israelis
" He shrugged when asked if the Palestinian leadership's bid for UN membership and recognition of statehood in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza could improve conditions.
"The sulta [the Palestinian Authority] and the Israelis co-operate against us." "

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

Apropos of the assertion that drawing parallels between Nazi actions and actions of Israelis, must be seen as anti-semitic:

"The judges likened his stated willingness "to murder even women and children in cold blood" to "Hitler's methods in France".

The judges in question being Israeli judges, in a trial of a group of Israeli soldiers, which was kept secret for 54 years.(Israel learns of a hidden shame in its early years")

That goes to suggest that MtheGM's strictures on Jim were excessive. As for Jim Carroll's bullheaded campaign against Keith for his interpretation of a post Keith once made, that's equally over the top.

Go and play some music...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:43 AM

Both of your links end up at the same Guardian article (which I was fully aware of), which talks of harrassment, neglect and denial of full citizenship which is a reality for virtually every community of Travellers all over the world - particularly Britain at the present time
No country, apart from Israel is proposing the forcible expulsion of 30,000 members of an ethnic community.
Pointing at the abuse by one government in order to excuse ethnic cleansing by another is tantamount to being an apologist for inhuman racist behaviour.
All nations treat Travellers badly, address the ethnic cleansing; the racist behaviour of the Israelis is the issue here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:58 AM

There are not 6,000,000 of them, scheduled to be methodically murdered in death-factories specifically designed for the purpose as a matter of approved national policy: that is what your chosen word 'Holocaust' designates. I say again ~~ if some 20-30 of your 1st cousins once removed [i.e. your father's first cousins] had been among that vast multitude, a number somewhat greater than the entire populations of Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham and Leeds, I don't think you would bandy such a term so insouciantly. I say again ~~ it is a provocatively and deliberately antisemitic act, an act of Jew-baiting, to do so. It far exceeds anything justified by the intransigence and belligerence of Israel's regrettable policies. You have made no apology or in any way said anything to mitigate such intentional abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

First link, about the Bedouin in Israel.
detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=3240066

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM

Nowhere does your link mention the forcible expulsion of 30,000 Bedouins
Congratualtions - you have just added 'apologist for ethnic cleansing' to your CV
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM

You guys are absolutely hilarious. "Mummy, he MADE me do it!"

You want to stop posting, stop posting. If you don't, it's because YOU DON'T WANT TO STOP.

If anybody wonders, yes I really DO think this is funny. But I've had my say and it will be my opinion for as long as you continue, and probably a few years after you stop.

I'm done. Watch this, guys--this is how you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:25 AM

Not because I did not want to stop Jeri, but because I did not want to let personal, slanderous attacks go unanswered.

Are you sure that you would let such things said against you remain on the forum unchallenged?

At least you got a laugh out of it.
Not so funny to be on the receiving end.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM

Jim, the expulsion has already been mentioned, but has not already happened.
Has it even been announced?
Are the numbers fixed?

Jim I am not defending or apologising for the treatment of the Bedouin.
I provided evidence that, of the 2 neighbours, Egypt is far worse.
So why single out the lesser for your rage?
Irrational prejudice?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM

Israel plans expulsion of some 60,000 Bedouin Palestinians

    By Ben White – The Electronic Intifada – 10/11/2011

Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem has drawn attention to plans by the Israeli government to expel 27,000 Bedouin Palestinians who currently live in what is known as 'Area C' of the West Bank.

    The Civil Administration (CA) is planning to expel the Bedouin communities living in Area C in the West Bank, transferring some 27,000 persons from their homes. In the first phase, planned as early as January 2012, some 20 communities, comprising 2,300 persons, will be forcibly transferred to a site near the Abu Dis refuse dump, east of Jerusalem.

Area C, making up around 60 percent of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, is where most Israeli colonisation is concentrated, e.g. the largest settlements, military training zones, etc. (For more information on Area C see these UN reports from August 2011 and August 2010).

Palestinians who live in Area C have long faced severe discrimination under Israeli military rule, particularly when it comes to issues of housing. For example, a UN survey in 2008 found that 94 percent of building permit applications by Palestinians were denied by the Israeli occupation authorities.

Meanwhile, it was only a month ago that the Israeli cabinet approved a plan for the Negev that means the forcible relocation of around 30,000 Bedouin Palestinian citizens.

As I wrote at the time, this 'transfer' plan is directly linked to efforts to 'Judaize' the Negev: as Ramat Negev Regional Council mayor Shmuel Rifman put it, if the Israeli government does not "finalise the Bedouin settlement it will be very hard to enhance Jewish settlement in the Negev".

In the West Bank, the same logic is at work. UN OCHA have also just released a factsheet on the displacement of Bedouin near Jerusalem in which they note:

    The Bedouin's current homes are located in an area that holds strategic significance for further expansion of Israeli settlements.

Thus in the de facto one state that exists between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, Israeli authorities are currently planning mass expulsions of around 60,000 Palestinians, specifically in order to free up more territory for Jewish settlement. The Nakba never finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:10 PM

Egypt is far worse

Not good, though things could get better if the post Mubarak Egypt ends up as a democracy, but the evidence does seem to show Israel as the leader in the competition to treat Bedouin worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:11 PM

How so Kevin?
In Egypt they are already banished to the Sinai, and discriminated against in every way.

Plans and proposals do not always become fact.
We do not know if generous compensation is planned.
We do not know what the new provision will be.
It is all a bit premature.

As of now, The Guardian piece shows the plight of the Egyptian Bedouin to be worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

"There are not 6,000,000 of them, "
Nobody said there were - but (to repeat, as you have constantly refused to comment on) I have never once attempted to compare like with like and your accusation of anti-Semite Jew baiter would be perfectly justified if I had; I merly said that there are echoes of the Nazi treatment of the Jews. Surely the proposed forcible ejection of 30-60 thousand people is indication enough that this is the case?
There are smaller incidents that are reminiscent of Nazi behaviour - jeering soldiers forcing a musician to play for them "to prove he was what he said he was" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/29/israel
Or the Israeli soldiers who billeted themselves with a Palestinian family and shat in all the cooking utensils when they left - all chillingly reminiscent of the Nazi behaviour towards the Jews.
I've already mentioned the massacres, the wall, the razing of homes, te evictions - now we have a proposed ethnic cleansing which once again you choose to defend with your silence.
You have hidden behind accusations of 'anti-Semitism' to avoid facing these incidents and your own double standards on anti Jewish and anti-Pakistani racism calls your own racist stance to question.
It seems that "anti-Semitism" rather than "patriotim" has become "the last refuge of a scoundrel" (in your case, an extremely cowardly one in defence of what has become a fascist state).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM

"I merly said that there are echoes of the Nazi treatment of the Jews. Surely the proposed forcible ejection of 30-60 thousand people is indication enough that this is the case?"
.,,.,..,
The Nazis did not 'eject' the Jews by the thousands; they methodically murdered them by the millions in efficiently run organisations specifically designed for the purpose; in the most humiliating & painful possible manner: thrust naked several hundred at the time into small compartments and then choked to death by the fumes of concentrated weedkiller. Have you ever seen what is, to my mind, probably the saddest picture ever published, even more than the piles of emaciated corpses being bulldozed into pits at Belsen - the mountainous pile of children's shoes outside the gas-chamber at Treblinka?

I leave it to others to judge; but I would call your cited enormity a pretty faint & feeble 'echo' myself.

Which is not to discount it as such, an enormity, mind. You are getting pathetic with your accusations of my 'defending' the state in its present form; inconsistently so - you actually quote me doing the precise opposite only 10 posts back - 0938 am.

I say again, Jim; your tone is antisemitic, whatever you might think. If it is not intentionally so, then I suggest that you pause & have a listen to yourself; and stop accusing me of cowardice by hiding behind accusations of antisemitism, which is a cowardly evasive get-out of precisely the sort you are accusing me of. You are doing yourself no credit at all even inviting such accusations; which IS what you are doing, with your Nazi & your Holocaust, and your accusations of racism for denunciations of the activities of undisputed sections of some specific demographics in particular situations, and your obsessive persecution of Keith which is nothing but a shoot-the-messenger rant, based on a long-ago ambiguous post on another thread, at best most marginally relevant to the gravamen of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:31 PM

Sorry - I miscounted: 13 posts back, 0832 am

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM

I think the Sinai is a place the Bedouin have always lived. That's a bit like saying the Welsh are exiled to Wales.

The Guardian piece didn't mention anything about them not being allowed to live there or destroying their homes...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM

Here is a link to one of the pictures of the children's shoes ~~ this one at Belzec

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Belzec01.jpg

Several others are online, at Birkenau, Matthauasen, as well as Treblinka.

Just show me something similar in Israel, eh - for all the admitted disappointment to so many of us at the way the place has turned out.

BTW - re your account of shitting by soldiers in cooking utensils: same thing was done during British army visits to Jewish settlements in Mandate-era Palestine, I am sorry to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM

& here is a pile of dead people's spectacles from Auschwitz ~~

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Auschw01.jpg

You & your bloody 'echoes', Jim Carroll...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM

"I say again, Jim; your tone is antisemitic, "
And I say again thay your tone is both hypocritical and racist.
You continue to distort my attitude by ignoring what I say and your double standards of what is and is not racist when it is applied to Jews and Muslims is breathtaking.
At least Keith attempts to make an effort when he dissembles.
There was a time when I respected and was entertained and informed by your writings, even though I didn't always agree with them.
Just shows you; if you want to keep your respect for someone - keep you distance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM

Cross posted:
I know what the dead of Auschwitz look like - I was educated by friends whose parents were there.
I see you are not going to even refer to the proposed ethnic cleansing - another echo of pre-war Germany and all those good citizens who "passed by on the other side".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM

Oh for heaven's sake, Jim: the ethnic cleansing is obviously a part that I am taking into account of the insufferable nature of the present regime in Israel that I keep on denouncing - & not defending, for all your obsessive parroting ~~ it is not what I and my friends worked our arses off for in our teens; it is a grievous disappointment to us all: I didn't do it for people to be rehoused against their will from their ancestral lands, or for the olive groves they depend on for their livings to be maliciously uprooted in return for some activities of their co-patriots for which they were in no way responsible. I am not defending any such thing, Jim. I join you in your wholehearted denunciation of it. So what more do you want me to say?

But, please, enough of your almost inaudible 'echoes'. I say again: you might as well call the cold in the head my mother had for a few days when she was 50 a proleptic 'echo' of the cancer which killed her seven years later. Please get some sense of proportion. You go on about all these Jewish friends of yours. Just ask them, please, how they view your insistence on comparing the present doings of the Israeli government to the actual six-million strong HOLOCAUST! Go on. See what they say to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:16 PM

The sad thing is that there are people in all nations who are capable of behaving like Nazis - including Britain and Israel. The platoon commander in that "hidden shame" story, to which I linked a few posts back, served in the British army before he led his Israeli platoon in this atrocity which led Israeli judges to liken "his stated willingness 'to murder even women and children in cold blood' to 'Hitler's methods in France'."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:04 PM

Anybody posting here actually lose any relatives to the Holocaust?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:02 AM

Mrr ~ Yes. As you will read above, my father lost all his first cousins who had been left behind in Roumania. About 20-ish of them, I believe. He was brought here at 1 year old but knew some of them who had visited in his childhood and youth [he was born in 1901], but I remember my grandmother, who did of course remember them all well, getting a letter from one surviving relative in 1945 when the place had been liberated. I know I never met any of them (thought I may have a vague recollection of some 'cousin' with a foreign accent in, maybe, 1935, when I was 3), but they were all as genetically close to me as my mother's large number of first cousins (both her parents came from large & prolific families ~ I myself had 23 first cousins, as my father was one of five and my mother one of eight), many of whom I did know well in my childhood. Her family originated in Lithuania, but I don't know what happened to any of her lot who might have remained there.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:10 AM

It's why,as you will note from some of my remarks above, I am getting so (disproportionately, some might say, but obviously I wouldn't agree) exercised and distressed by some of Jim's invidious and disproportionate comparisons and "echoes". I really do wish he'd stop it. They come over [I can't avoid saying it again] as intentionally distressing to Jews; & IMO aimed at them in what can only be described as an antisemitic fashion. He can bluster that I am hiding in cowardly fashion behind such an accusation to cover up some less than worthy views of my own; but, be that as it may, I still aver that he is being deliberately racist, for all his pleas of 'echoes' and 'merely matters of degree' and all the rest of his racist rhetoric.

I really am as disappointed in him as I am in the State of Israel ~~ and that is saying something.

Are you listening, Jim Carroll?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM

Jim Carroll

Let me repeat here a couple of previous posts of mine ---
,.,.
"I am embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into; even my sister & her son [who was born there], who maintain their Jewish & Zionist identity which I don't, are having serious reservations". I hold no brief for the actions or attitudes of the present government of Israel, find many of their actions and policies entirely unacceptable and culpable, and dissociate myself unreservedly from them."
.,.,
"Jim ~ I do not disagree with you re WP. I wish the Israelis didn't do such things; or destroy Arab lands and agricultural resources as they do in disproportionate retaliations against attacks. It was not for such that I marched and collected in my youth in support of the establishment of the entity which has turned out in its present governmental avatar to be such a grave disappointment. I really do see where you are coming from re Israeli intransigence & worse ~ I refer you again to that previous credo of mine of a couple of days ago."
.,.,

Can you really not see that objections to present policies vis-à-vis the Arab population ~ call it 'ethnic cleansing' if you like ~ is subsumed in the above statements as one of the factors responsible for my present attitude of grief and disappointment and more at what the Jewish Homeland we all so earnestly wished for in my youth has turned into?

So let me say explicitly that it is. It is one of the worst things going on there.

Now please stop accusing me of ignoring or trying to belittle this aspect of the situation. I do no such thing, and there it is spelt out in black & white.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:00 AM

And in turn, perhaps you would be so good as to stop calling it "a Holocaust", which you know perfectly well is a designation which can only be regarded as deliberately and intentionally offensive and distressing ~~ and hence antisemitic in intent. So long as you persist in such loctions, to whatever extent you regard them as mere 'echoes', so long will my accusation of antisemitic racism on your part remain, and be fully justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:45 AM

Kevin,

I think the Sinai is a place the Bedouin have always lived. That's a bit like saying the Welsh are exiled to Wales.

The Guardian piece didn't mention anything about them not being allowed to live there or destroying their homes...

If they are already in the most barren and desolate place, it would be nice if they were allowed to go elsewhere.
They are even denied employment in Sinai.
"they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves"

A successful, educated high office holding Israeli Bedouin said"I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East"

And no homes have been destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:24 AM

Sorry Mike - your ranting name-calling defence of Zionist fascism has done it for me, as has your selective double-standard defence of racist statements (you really should have taken a longer spoon to that particular dinner party).
Israel isn't "becoming" anything - it's a done deal and has been going that way since the days of Yehida and Khisas, and giving it your blessing with your "danger of becoming", your silence and your apologist defence makes you part of it
I suggest we all take cold showers and leave this thread to people who can make better use of it than we obviously can.
Jim Carroll