BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 03:37 PM

Dave, cartoons "depicting famine refugees as apes" have never before been mentioned on this forum.
You chose not to use the link to the original discussion.

I never discussed them, and I never said they were just the humour of the time.
Jim made that up, as he did that I denied the "no Irish" signs, which I also have never discussed.
Jim tells lies about me.

Jim,
It was from Kineally that I learned that Irish children were taught to blame Britain for the famine.
Believing her does not make me right wing.

Your views on immigrants on Travellers is extreme right wing.
Lie.
I have never expressed an anti immigrant or anti traveller view.
Why don't you produce one, liar?

Likewise anti any other demographic.
Liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:21 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:57 PM

Can you find any examples of "Irish famine refugees depicted as apes?"
Rag?
Jim?
I do not believe that there ever were any.
...
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 03:37 PM

Dave, cartoons "depicting famine refugees as apes" have never before been mentioned on this forum.

Must be terrible not being able to remember 2 days ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:37 PM

"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
Not Kineally - you - you put it up as your belief
I thought you'd learned your lesson over blaming somebody else for your statement excactly was -
"Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
Your statement - your belief and an extremely racist one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:56 PM

When Keith disappeared for a few days, were we concerned for his well being...???

did we miss him...???


I can truthfully answer "Slightly, but no news is better than bad news.." to one of those questions.... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 05:14 AM

Must be terrible not being able to remember 2 days ago...

When he made the accusation, such cartoons had never been mentioned before.
I never said what he accused me of saying about them, or about "no Irish" signs.
He lies about me and you defend it.

Liar Jim,
Not Kineally - you - you put it up as your belief

No.
I had already quoted Kineally who said that generations of Irish kids had been taught to blame Britain for the famine while Irish historians objected to it as false propaganda.

I learned that from her.

Pfr, be happy.
I will be spending more time in hospital and less on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 05:55 AM

Keith - take care, look after yourself, best wishes for your health & recovery.

Remember, I don't actually dislike you,
I'm just cheesed off with your unreasonable negative derailing behaviour on threads I enjoy...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:33 AM

Thanks pfr.
Not fishing for sympathy.
Do you really want a forum where you never see views that challenge your own?

I really enjoy debate.
I love it when my views are challenged.
I hate it when people call me things instead of challenging what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:50 AM

"I hate it when people call me things instead of challenging what I actually say."
Everybody challenges what you have to say - you either ignore it, deny you have said it or blame somebody else.
You have blamed Kinealy here, in the past you have blamed historians you have not read and admit, you are notr interested enough in the subject ever to read them, or have invented "experts" and attributed (certainly one of your most outrageously right wing and racist) statements to them - form this into a well know phrase or sentence "Muslims male All implanted culturally are".
You ignore what people say, you lie about statements you have made (at least three times recently) and you set out to "win" something.
I have no idea at all why you take part in these discussions - you certainly aren't interested in the views of others.
Stop now Keith while you are only this far behind.
Simple test - If Kinealy said Irish kids have been brainwashed to hate Britain - produce her statement - failure to do so will prove you are lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

Christine Kineally,

To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 07:21 AM

That covered the period from 1922 to 1935 -80 years ago and it refers to British politicians and not "the British" and she went on to describe how education changed, removing the blame element, up to her final conclusion on revisionism which totally remove all discussion on blame.
This is exactly what I am talking about - how you take odd phrases totally out of context to claim children in Ireland have been brainwashed to hate Britain - your claim, not hers, not anybody elses - yours alone.
You really are a piece of work - and not very bright with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 10:00 AM

The piece the Professor can be found at:Christine Kinealy Article


It goes on to say:

"This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths"

Not that he's actually read the book just another selective cut and paste eh Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

I'm sorry about you health issues and really do wish you well, Keith, but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue. That is the perception that I and many others have. It does not matter whether you believe it or not or whether you try to 'prove' that is not the case. None of us expect you, or anyone else for that matter, to change but if you would at least believe how you come across to people without disputing the silliest of points to the nth degree then there would be far fewer arguments. And about 75% fewer posts in the BS section.

Good luck anyway,

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 12:50 PM

Jim,
That covered the period from 1922 to 1935 -80 years ago

Wrong.
"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border."

Rag,
It is you who are being selective.
I already quoted your quote.
The historians tried to get the curriculum changed, but,
"To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 12:54 PM

Dave,
but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue.

It is not me.
It is those people who try to prove me to be right wing instead of just responding to what I actually say.
That makes the discussion about me and not the issue.
I hate it and complain every time people do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 01:55 PM

I hate it and complain every time people do it.

Exactly, Keith. These are people you do not care about. You and those close to you know you the best. Ignore the others. It is simple enough to just say 'that is not true' instead of going into reams and reams of why you feel it is not true. Why do the opinions of people you do not even care about matter so much? At times it comes across as protesting too much.

If neither foes not loving friend can hurt you...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

"still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. "
Nothing to do with what has happened in the last 80 years
IRISH SCHOOLS HAVE NEVER TAUGHT CHILDREN TO HATE BRITISH PEOPLE - CERTAINLY NOT IN MY LIFETIME NOR IN THE LIFETIME OF ANY OF MY FAMILY AND IT IS BASIC RACIST STEREOTYPING TO SUGGEST THIS IS THE CASE - CONFIRMING YOUR POLITICAL POSITION
The Nationalist paradigm, referred to is to concentrate on the events of The Famine - not on the causes, nor on apportioning the blame - this is Kinealy's point - I've recently read her book, which you, in your self- confessed disinterest in the subject, will never do.
We've been through this Keith - at least a dozen of my relatives received an Irish education - none of them were "brainwashed to hate Britain" and to suggest it in on par with your suggestion that "all Male Pakistanis have been culturally implanted" which makes them prone to raping underage girls.
All a confirmation that you are an extreme right-wing fanatic.
Do you wonder why people recognise you as an extreme right-winger, when you make such outrageous attacks on entire national groups - in this case, including Irish children?
Back to the medication, if I were you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

Keith,

Your 'cause' would also be helped if you didn't pen sheer garbage like this:

'Jim, there are hundreds of Orange marches. All but one or sometimes two pass off entirely peacefully and are indeed a happy family occasion.
Bigots like you would have them banned and that whole culture crushed.'

Anyone living in Belfast or Derry or flashpoints elsewhere in the Six Counties would regard your belief that 'All but one or sometimes two' Orange parades 'pass off entirely peacefully' as utter bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:56 PM

Modette, how many of the hundreds of parades have been marred by violence in recent years?
Some years two, most years one, this year none.
From an old post of mine,
Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM
Jim,
"because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year,"

Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:59 PM

Dave, I post about issues.
When people fail to reply to what I actually post, making accusations about me instead, it makes the discussion about me.

Why not criticise them for making the accusations, instead of me for defending myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:03 PM

Blimey Keith, do you retain a team of researchers just to cross reference your immense archive of all your posts !!???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:04 PM

Jim, Kinealy says that generations of children have been taught that Britain starved the Irish people or allowed them to starve.
Like a totalitarian state, they did not allow historians to set the curriculum because that was not required political message.

That would make some hate Britain, and a few to seek revenge.
Hatred was sowed into the minds of children and we are reaping the bloody harvest to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:21 PM

Modette, Irish Times this year,

A contentious Orange Order feeder parade past the Ardoyne shops in north Belfast took place peacefully this morning.
There was a heavy police presence as two loyalist bands led Orangemen and some of their supporters past two nationalist protests at the shops this morning.
Some nationalists blew whistles and there was some taunting between nationalists and loyalists at the flashpoint but otherwise the parade which took a few minutes to process beyond the shops concluded peacefully.

The Orangemen were marching to the main parade which has started in Belfast. It features some 10,000 Orangemen and women, about 70 bands, with many thousands more spectating along the roadside.
In all there are 18 Orange Order parades and one Independent Orange Order parades taking place across Northern Ireland today. The vast majority of parades take place without incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:29 PM

When people fail to reply to what I actually post, making accusations about me instead, it makes the discussion about me.

Only if you let it, Keith. It takes two to tango and, if I may use another platitude, it doesn't matter who started it; it is whoever stopped it that counts.

Why not criticise them for making the accusations, instead of me for defending myself?

I am not criticising anyone for making accusations or defending themselves. I am criticising your style of argument. I find it very irritating. Whether you take any notice of that opinion or not is entirely up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 04:03 PM

Kinealy says nothing of the sort.
Kinealy argued at firs (certainly at the time of your cut-n-paste that the famine was caused by neglect and adopting predatory business practices - that is the situation with all historians - revisionist and otherwise - that the outcome of The Famine was due to the Laissez Faire‎ policy adopted by Britain - no historian disputes that - even British historians - it is what Blair apologised for on his visit to Ireland - even revisionist, Mrs Woodham Smith, criticised Britain;'s "full warehouses, selling famine relief" behabvior.
Her book criticises the the Nationalist Government for not examining the causes of the Famine in depth and only dealing with the Laissez Faire‎ policy, even though she admits that they did so in order to maintain good relations with Britain so the many thousands of emigrants could easily settle in Britain during the bad years - 'The Emergency' as it is known here.
She has shifted her position in that she now supports Coogan's view, based on his new evidence, that The Famine was deliberately used to solve 'The Irish Problem.
You cannot hope to understand from out-of context cut-'n-pastes red the ***** book!
You suggest the Irish children were brainwashed - they weren't and there is no evidence of them having been.
Hastred of the British is centred in the North and is down to nearly a century of partitioning, anti-Catholic prejudice since the six counties were set up, the brutal way the Civil Rights Marches were put down in the 1960s, Bloody Sunday - and now a new kid on the block, the Ballymurphy Massacre carried out by the Paras prior to Bloody Sunday, where 11 civilians were shot down known as Belfast Bloody Sunday) now being investigated.
None of this has SFA to do with the famine and it never has.
You have been given the facts of Kinealy's book, you have been given the experiences of my family in the Irish education system - yet you continue to present the Irish people as a hate-filled, brainwashed people and insist that it is all down to the education system NO HISTORIAN HAS EVER MADE SUCH A SUGGESTION - ONCE AGAIN, YOU HAVE INVENTED YOUR OWN SCENARIO AND ARE BLAMING IT ON A HISTORIAN YOU HAVEN'T READ
Far from the Irish hating Britain, it is people like you who are hate filled - towards the Irish - how else would you explain your behaviour.
Your own stance far exceeds the worst of the Loyalists, who are, at least, attempting to come to terms with their past and put things right - you appear to be firmly in the grip of The Red Hand of Ulster - as I said - an extreme hate filled-right wing fanatic who extends his hatred to children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:06 AM

"I'm sorry about you health issues and really do wish you well, Keith, but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue." - DtG

But the fact is "he does not make every thread about himself" - DOES HE? You along with the usual gang of cyber bullies does that by:

1: Refusing point blank to address civilly any point raised
2: Resorting to ad hominem attacks - Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand.
3: Make baseless accusations and resolutely refuse to substantiate them when challenged to do so

In previous threads so far mentioned and referred to Keith A has stated the comments, opinions and conclusions of others (Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum) and asked for comment on those points. At no time at all has he claimed those comments, opinions and conclusions as his own - You DtG and the rest of the gang have insisted that he did. Oh and Raggy as to whether somebody has read about something or not - I can remember in one of the WWI threads where you claimed to know nothing about the subject but yet seemed qualified and informed enough to argue points made by "Professors" who had made a life's work of research and study into the subject - so less of the pot calling the kettle black.

The gang of cyber bullies on this forum has destroyed any chance of balanced debate or discussion and the lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:38 AM

Teribus, might I respectfully suggest that your hectoring, aggressive, name-calling demeanour on this board makes any aspiring bully, next to you, look like a crass amateur.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:51 AM

Ah Steve you forget it is quiet acceptable that Teribus can do it, that honour is reserved just for the few. In his most recent post he claims that I stated that I knew nothing about WW1. I think I am reasonably well versed in the subject to be able to express a considered opinion.

Mind you he also claims that Cork is on the East Coast of Ireland so we can judge his claims by that really!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

"Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum"
In fact and by self admittance not qualified in the slightest
He has held forth on subjects he has openly admitted that not on;y does he have no knowledge of, but that he has no interest in.
He is arrogant and abusive towards those who disagree with him - "lefties" and "Muppets" being a regular favourite of his, yet he constantly whinges about people being rude to him.
He lies constantly, and when his lies are pointed out to him (usually in the form of quotes he claims not to have made), he does not withdraw his accusations of our being "liars" (another of his favourites - he has used the term 3 times on this thread and numerable times on others), but goes on as if nothing has happened.
His ignorance on subjects he pontificates on is astounding (every bit as as astounding as your own), yet he constantly talks down to people.
He came back to this thread when he had no need to - not on the subject in hand, but defending his own unreasonable behaviour.
It's a bit rich for a bullying clown like yourself to talk about "cyber - bullying" - you are one of the most openly ill mannered, and personally insulting posters on this forum, and you have been told so numerous times.
Glass houses - stones and all that.
Life's work m,y arse - he and you spout jingoism, not knowledge on W.W.1. - he, at least hastily drags out carefully selected, and sometimes edited cut-'n-pastes to make his case - you just pontificate and pronounce and seldom produce anything to back up your statements.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:56 AM

i wonder if the moderators on this thread are allowing it to continue in the hope that the participants will look at its development and eventually realise that we are all completely, crazily obsessed with pointless squabbling. we all have to make a decision - rather than being thrown off the bus we could just get off at the next stop....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:18 PM

Dave,
Only if you let it, Keith. It takes two to tango and, if I may use another platitude, it doesn't matter who started it; it is whoever stopped it that counts.

You are wrong.
Calling me things is a personal, ad hominem attack and is a clear breach of forum etiquette.

Asking for the accusation to be substantiated is a perfectly reasonable response to unreasonable behaviour.
Objecting to Jim making up things that I have never said is a perfectly reasonable response to unreasonable behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

Yes, Keith. Whatever. Like I said, whether you take any notice of my opinion is not my problem.

Teribus, if I really wanted to be abusive I would just tell you to fuck off. As it is, I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest. I have always made it quite clear thay my opinions are just that. Keith is pompous. You are a twat. Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever isist is true. No shame in proffering honest opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:50 PM

Jim,
He came back to this thread when he had no need to

After I left there were a number of posts about me that required a reply.

Re Kinealy,

She refers to the "traditional, nationalist paradigm" where "blame is generally attributed to ""key groupings, either within the British government.."

She said that "the government instructed history teachers" to deliver that propaganda to children.
That is a description of brain washing.
No wonder there is so much hate!

She said that in the 30s " the Irish academic establishment" tried to get the truth told to the children, but schools just carried on.

She said that the "popular understanding" of that history is coloured as a result to the present day.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:56 PM

Dave,
I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest.

You defended Jim when he lied that I had said the cartoons were just the humour of the time, when he lied that I had denied the existence of "no Irish" signs, and when he lied that we had ever discussed "cartoons depicting famine victims as apes."

You took the side of all those who accused me of being right wing while refusing to produce any right wing view I had ever expressed.

You said it was my fault that they made me the subject of discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:01 PM

You defended Jim when he lied

I defended no-one.

You took the side of all those who accused me

I may agree with some people more than others but I take no sides.

You said it was my fault that they made me the subject of discussion.

I said it takes two to tango.

Three misinterpretations in a row, Keith. Is it any wonder people take the piss?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:30 PM

"After I left there were a number of posts about me that required a reply."
You have opened up arguments that have been covered over and over again - and you still haven't understood what was discussed first time round
You are still dredging up the same old same old links which contradict everything you are claiming - why not just save time and read the book - it's still available?
Nobody asked you any questions that required answering - you came back to claim you were not right-wing and you have managed to show that you were.
This is the fourth time you have called me a liar - we did discuss cartoons depicting the Irish as apes and you were given the Charles Kingsley quote that says exactly that - you passed it off by saying that's what cartoonists do - despite Britain's appalling reputation of open racism towards the Irish.
If Irish children were brainwashed - where and how - there was nothing published covering The Famine for 150 yeas except one book by an Englishwoman - do't you think it dreadfully remiss of brainwashers to not to attempt to influence their victims through print - the direct line to people's minds?
Your description of the Irish people, particularly their children remains the most offensively racist statement you have ever made - apart from... well, you know!!
Please come down to our local and repeat what you have written - I would like to sell tickets.
Finished with this - you are obviously not going to respond to any of this.
Jim Carroll
.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:43 PM

.....and there we must leave them.......

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:50 PM

I'm gone from this - I really am Achmelvich
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

Jim, I too have ask the Professor to visit Ireland, I even said I would buy him a meal and pay for his beer all night in a pub of his choice, e has yet to accept. But like many of his ilk he doesn't have the courage of his conviction. He has already said he knows sweet FA about Irish history and has no interest in it and has no desire to be educated about it despite his increasing number of posts. (500 plus)

But it's not really about Ireland, it's not really about the famine, it's about poor little Keith being "victimised" Sad little bugger really, we should feel sorry for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 03:52 AM

Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand.

You asked for an example of when you have made such an attack DtG

How about your post of:

Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

Yes, Keith. Whatever. Like I said, whether you take any notice of my opinion is not my problem.

Teribus, if I really wanted to be abusive I would just tell you to fuck off[You mean as Raggytash has already done on this Thread in a response to Keith A?]. As it is, I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest. I have always made it quite clear that my opinions are just that. Keith is pompous. You are a twat. Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever insist is true. No shame in proffering honest opinion."

You may offer your opinion, but if that opinion includes accusations then you have to substantiate the grounds for making them. Do you really state opinions that you know to be untrue? - ("Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever insist is true." - Your words" - That would make you out to be the Twat Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM

"In previous threads so far mentioned and referred to Keith A has stated the comments, opinions and conclusions of others (Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum) and asked for comment on those points. At no time at all has he claimed those comments, opinions and conclusions as his own - You DtG and the rest of the gang have insisted that he did. Oh and Raggy as to whether somebody has read about something or not - I can remember in one of the WWI threads where you claimed to know nothing about the subject but yet seemed qualified and informed enough to argue points made by "Professors" who had made a life's work of research and study into the subject" - Teribus

Now here is how Carroll deliberately misreads and/or demonstrates his selective comprehension skills when it comes to the English language:

"Life's work m,y arse - he and you spout jingoism, not knowledge on W.W.1. - he, at least hastily drags out carefully selected, and sometimes edited cut-'n-pastes to make his case - you just pontificate and pronounce and seldom produce anything to back up your statements." - Jim Carroll.

So Jim neither Keith, myself, Lighter or others who contributed to those numerous threads on WWI ever mentioned the names of Professors of History whose area of expertise was the "Great War"? - Or would you like me to give examples where I have done so chapter and verse? Where "you and the gang" cling to authors whose work has been discredited in the light of new information and who at best only dabbled in the history of the period, those mentioned above sought to discuss the impact of the new information brought to light by recent work and research into the period in question by academics who do specialise in the subject of WWI. IIRC Keith raised three points you agreed with two of them. What substantive "facts" did you lot bring to the discussion? What points of discussion did any of you counter with any facts at all? Both rhetorical questions Jim - to which the answer in both instances is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:31 AM

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1. a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

As an opinion is, by definition, neither true nor untrue how can one offer an opinion that is untrue? Neither is it an accusation so you seem to be railing against my view or judgement rather than anything else.

Still, it is nice to know that you are taking notice of my opinion when I really could not give a shit about yours :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:33 AM

Ah Teriblunder. "Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand"

Lets just have a little look back shall we:

26th May "Joe - they are taking the piss, it is what they do, this one is targeted at you and Pete"

29th May "DtG before you go off pin head dancing again I asked Jim a question"

29th May "Care to tell us exactly where you actually touch reality in your life - or is reality a complete and utter foreign land to you?."

3rd June "You see the Musktwats feels free to put that tactic to use whenever they see fit, but others are castigated for doing so (even when they aren't)"

4th June "Go dance on the head of your pin DtG it is about all that you are good for"

I could go on. Again and again. Pot, Kettle, Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:04 AM

Jim,
we did discuss cartoons depicting the Irish as apes

Yes we did, as I acknowledged.
We did not discuss cartoons that depicted famine victims as apes, as you claimed.
That was a lie as was your claim that I supported them as being "just the humour of the time."
That was a lie as was your claim that I denied "No Irish" signs.
You lied and lied.

You also claimed that I expressed racist, right wing views on Irish education.
I have shown that the views I expressed were those of an eminent, left wing Irish historian, as published in the pre-eminent journal of Irish history, with supporting references to the works of other eminent Irish historians.

Your argument is demolished Jim.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:09 AM

Personally, I think Achmelvich is right and while we let these discussions degenerate to this level we are all guilty of negating any chance of these threads acting as an exchange of ideas and knowledge
There are people here who don't want this - they appear to have neither and would rather shine like stars and win points.
If anybody has anything further to say on the subject in hand, I suggest we leave it there and move on.
Arguments with these people are simply stating the obvious and a bit of a waste of time and energy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:21 AM

Or you could restrict yourself to discussing the issues instead of making false, personal, ad hominem accusations against contributors you do not agree with, and refrain from telling lies about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:28 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:33 AM"

Is that really the best you can do Raggy? Taking single lines and phrases and posting them without context? Pathetic

Gnome - I couldn't care less for you or your opinions - all I know is that if I hold an opinion on anything that opinion is based on information, reasoning and logic that leads me to believe that opinion to be true. But there again it would appear that you have rather idiotically chosen to completely ignore the word necessarily contained in the definition of the word opinion which therefore logically would lead one to automatically regard any "opinion" of yours to be uninformed and ill-founded - a stance I adopted quite some time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:30 AM

"You lose."
Many thanks Keith incredible timing; I couldn't have made my point more perfectly than you have just done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:37 AM

That's fine, Teri. If you do not care for my opinions, why spend so much time picking them apart? My opinion is that it is probably because you are a complete knob head But as you do not care less I guess that doesn't matter to you.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:42 AM

"Arguments with these people are simply stating the obvious and a bit of a waste of time and energy"

Well Jim, you seem to waste more time than anyone on the forum and Teribus is correct, you people do not engage in informed discussion you simply attempt to validate your failed ideology by attempted intimidation and falsehoods.

Have you no shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 06:13 AM

"Have you no shame?"
I think you trio are making the point of who is fucking up these threads perfectly Ake - feel free to keep it up and hopefully this one will be the last.
Jim Carroll