BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:47 AM

Don

To clarify ...

The last line of my last post was meant for the eyes of the readership at large and to perhaps give a clue to some men just how horrible a crime rape is, as most men have probably at some point been humiliated sexually in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:02 AM

From Dave:
"...and this has what to do with blaming some victims for rape? "

That NHS film, on the previous page, in my previous message has ALL to do with doctors and nurses trying to PREVENT terrible situations from happening in the first place, Dave. THAT is why they would have spent the money on making that film. The fact that it's content was deemed to explicit for Youtube, shows you how grave the situation has become.


"I know you like to blame the 'behavior of young people today' for all our ills. I still blame Bolivian unicyclists. I don't think either should be blamed for rape though..."


No, I blame OUR behaviour for many of the ills of young people today, actually.

By preaching this notion of total irresponsibility we have contributed to the situations which are happening all around us, and those situations are often blowing young people's lives apart.

By refusing to be judgemental we now almost condone anything that's going, because so many of us have let ourselves be brainwashed into the new Freedom of Expression which must not be criticised in ANY way at all.

Of course, if you look at this idea cynically, you can see what a great idea 'non-judgemental' is, because it gives those with ulterior motives the freedom to do whatever they want...

Your go, smartass. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 AM

And below is taken from the website of those Evil Party Poopers, the Devon and Cornwall Police, who put this message out over Christmas to try and keep young women safe, make them wake up to the dangers they put themselves into by getting themselves legless...

Taken from here:



"Alcohol is the most common date rape drug!

During the festive season we want to highlight the potential dangers of excessive alcohol to young women to try and reduce the number of sexual assaults .

The number of young women that are victims of serious sexual offences whilst drunk is a big concern for us.

We would like to ask young women to take note of the following tips if they are partying this Christmas:

Remember alcohol is the most common date rape drug
Don't drink so much that you are unable to say NO!
Stay away from situations which make you feel uncomfortable
Always pre-book a taxi through a licensed mini-cab office
We also wish to reinforce the message that was launched this summer: 'Rapists are not always strangers' – to young women. A key fact of this campaign was that in 80% of reported rapes, the victim had already met their attacker.

Assistant Chief Constable Debbie Simpson said: "We know that some young women get very drunk and go home with someone they meet on a night out.

"We want young women to be aware that in a small number of cases the decision to go home with someone after a drunken night out could lead to them being raped.

"At least six out of ten rapes happen in a house or flat. It is more likely that a rapist is someone that the victim may have met and gone home with on a drunken night out rather than a stranger in a dark alleyway.

"If you drink sensibly, then you are much more likely to be aware of potential dangers to your safety."

Forensic Science Service, Toxicology expert, Mike Scott-Ham comments: "Drink spiking is extremely rare.

Over the past 10 years, we have analysed thousands of samples of blood and urine from alleged 'date-rape' victims and have only come across one which contained Rohypnol and only two samples with GHB from instances of genuine 'spiking', despite use of 'Rohypnol' being detectable in urine samples taken 3 or 4 days after ingestion.

"The true reality of the problem is alcohol. Alcohol is the number one 'date rape' drug and I fully support the national rape awareness campaign in highlighting this fact."

Our Intelligence Manager Detective Inspector Samantha Norman confirms that this national data is mirrored locally. Detective Inspector Samantha Norman said: "In Devon and Cornwall we have not recorded any seizures of Rohypnol or GHB in the last 12 months. Furthermore, we are not receiving any substantiated intelligence concerning the use of either drug in any offences of a sexual nature in Devon, Cornwall or the Isles of Scilly."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

From Dave:
"...and this has what to do with blaming some victims for rape? "

That NHS film, on the previous page, in my previous message has ALL to do with doctors and nurses trying to PREVENT terrible situations from happening in the first place, Dave.

It is not an anti-rape film nor is it all about doctors and nurses trying to prevent terrible situations. It is a film encouraging young people to drink sensibly at Christmas, or so it says in the description.

So, I ask once more, what has it to do with blaming some victims for rape?

As to Your go, smartass Please refrain from name calling. I did not recall saying it was OK for you to call me names other than my own. If you want to exchange a barrage of abuse please let Joe know it was you that started it and you are quite happy to accept the abuse as well as give it.

Thank you.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:40 AM

The demonisation of women who drink influences the police, CPS and juries,
Dave Gee, the former head of Derbyshire CID claimed in an interview.

Defence barristers have admitted how they use an alleged victim's alcohol consumption to deliberately undermine her claim that sex was not consensual, from arguing drinking had loosened her inhibitions to saying it explained why she had slept with an unattractive man!

How a defence counsel can use this -

Marion Smullen, head of chambers at One Inner Temple Lane, who frequently acts as defence counsel in rape cases, said:
"However much politicians want to change the attitudes to rape, juries are still fairly judgmental where alcohol is concerned. It's certainly something that helps me as defence counsel."

A typical defence would be to argue that the woman consented to sex because she was drunk and then cried rape when she regretted it in the morning, she said.

Women drinking is still regarded as not quite right by a lot of juries. If they think maybe the woman has contributed in some way by being drunk, they will be reluctant to send someone to prison"


Gee observes that -
'Victims who had been drunk were seized on by defence counsel as "manna from heaven", '

Fears that alcohol consumption could wreck a case were used by some officers and individuals in the Crown Prosecution Service to decide a case was not worth bringing to court ie it would hit their clear-up rates.
But a handful of convictions secured recently in cases where victims had been drinking showed that if detectives put the effort into securing the evidence and the CPS was "bold" enough, it could pay off.

Gee continues -
"My advice to cops is: investigate.
If someone gets their car nicked or their house broken into and their DVD player's gone, then you start an investigation, irrespective of the respectability of the victim"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:46 AM

yup david those Bolivian unicyclists will get you every time! LOL

lox, i think you are onto something.
rhe guy who did it to me, kept telling me to tell him how much i wanted it how much i was enjoying it. he didn't listen when i told him i didn't and i wasn't. he seems to fall into the catagory you describe.
although there were other aspects, like it was my birthday and i was pretty stoned.

there is the other issue for course that it was pretty late, i was wasted and it was a fair walk home. i might have met a uncyclist and been in trouble anyway.

for me sometimes bad things happen for a reason, in my case it brought happyness and i would not have left to meet edi.

so i am if not grateful but glad it happened no matter how horendous it was or howmuch it messed me up for a while.

love
jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:04 AM

"If someone gets their car nicked or their house broken into and their DVD player's gone, then you start an investigation, irrespective of the respectability of the victim"

Hmmmmmm...an interesting one. So, going back to the burglar parallel..

Doesn't my insurance become null and void if I've left my doors or windows open,though? I think it comes under lack of due care and attention, or some such jargon..?

Whilst it was still the fault of the burglar for breaking in, I would have made it easy for him to do, perhaps almost encouraging him to seize an opportunity, had those open windows or doors been on display for everyone to see.

Yes, the police would start an investigation, so would the insurance company, but they would also tell me that I was stupid to leave my windows and doors open in the first place, warn me about doing it again, and I would have learned a very hard lesson. And the insurance people would of course, decline any claim, stating that it was my fault in the first place.

Should we not be as watchful of our bodies, minds and souls, as we are of our material things?

The burglar still was the one who carried out 'the crime' but didn't I lay down a red carpet for him, guiding him in like a lighthouse? Yes, in an ideal world, I should be able to leave ALL my doors and windows open, put a spotlight on my house with a sign saying "This house is empty and OPEN" and still expect others to leave it alone, but....REAL life ain't like that, is it?

It used to be, once upon a time...now people have locks and bolts on their doors and windows, because they know that there are some pretty nasty people out there.

Dave, I did put a ;0) there, which, as you've told me so many times in the past indicated that I was merely having a gentle chuckle, as you do too.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:17 AM

BBC News on National Anti Rape Campaign Nov/Dec 2009

And from that link...

Det Ch Insp Steve Mogg, head of serious sexual and violent crime at Gwent Police, said: "As the Christmas party season approaches, we want people who are going out to have a good time but to keep themselves safe.

"As part of this week-long awareness campaign, we will be out and about in the pubs and clubs of Gwent making information available and talking to people about the best ways to avoid becoming a victim, but also how to avoid becoming a perpetrator."

"Gwent officers are distributing posters around pubs and clubs in their area. Mr Mogg said officers wanted to encourage young people to be aware of their alcohol intake and to think twice about going home with someone or inviting them back.

He added: "When alcohol is involved things can become blurred and confused but there are no grey areas in regards to sex without consent - as far as the police are concerned we treat that as rape."


So the police are out there, were out there at Christmas, talking not just to women but to men. Telling women how NOT to become victims, and telling men how NOT to become perpetrators. For men NOT to seize the opportunity of raping a woman out of her brain on drink, and for women to NOT get to that state in the first place.

I have no problem with that. It makes absolute common sense. The only thing I do have a problem with, is that it should be a 52 week a year campaign, not just ONE week before Christmas, because to some young people, it is Christmas 24/7/365.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:41 AM

I thought you may be, Lizzie, but as the real world rules often differ from those in Lizzieland I could not be sure...

Don't dredge up the old robbery comparison again. We have gone through all that before but you probably missed it. It has already been said over and over that it is a spurious argument. Yes - agreed - the insurance company will not pay but in the courts there will be not one mention of doors or cars being left open. Unlike in a rape case the defense will never try to show that the victim was in any way to blame.

There is no defense for stealing a car stereo, even it was there on a plate, but to take someones self respect can be excused because the victim was being stupid. Funny old world init?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

But David, I've written probably thousand of words now, trying to explain that 'self-respect' isn't there in the first place in so many young people these days.

If it were they'd not be falling over sideways with alcohol, they'd not be having sex wherever possible, regardless of anyone else around...they'd not be throwing up over our pavements, and waking up with terrible hangovers on so many mornings..

It's because self respect has been replaced by "!I want RESPECT! even if I'm blind drunk and gagging for it!...Because, I have RIGHTS!"


Self respect is "Thanks, but no thanks, I don't want that for myself. I don't actually *want* to be totally out of control. I'd actually like to remember what I did last night, and know who I did it with, and that it was someone I have respect and feelings for, who returns that respect and feeling to me a thousand fold. I have way too much respect for my body to put it risk by laying it open for someone else to use however they may want to."

That's self respect...to me.

Now I really do have to get poodling OUT of this thread...it's getting a little worrying how many posts I've put down in here. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

"Alcohol is the number one 'date rape' drug ". No great surprises there then is there? Alcohol has been used for centuries to 'loosen women up' toward consent but it's value in getting a woman so blotto she is not aware at the time what happens must truly be a great help to the rapist. With judgemental juries, where alcohol is concerned, on the lenient side of the rapist. no wonder under-reporting is so common.

But then this only tales care of the alcohol related rapes. What of all the others? We really must stop this judging of the victim's behaviour prior to the rape. You cannot consent to a rape (as you cannot consent to an assault) so it would still be rape where any refusal, retraction or outright behavioural signs of not wanting sex is concerned. THAT is what the courts should deal with and stay on track with it.

Where the victim was acting in a way prior to the rape that we would not, or doing something we would not, or waering something we may consider sexy and inviting... there is no invitation to rape. Judge the rapist! They have a clear choice and, to be honest, where he knows the woman was not in control he should have the charge added to of taking advantage of a vulnerable person!

Give that some thought, because that is what it must be if they are out of the picture with alcohol.

The rapist should be allowed no place to hide within the law. If they have raped then that, and that alone, should be what is dealt with.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:35 AM

Now I really do have to get poodling OUT of this thread...

Promise?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

I really hate the expression 'gagging for it' - meaning some one (almost invariably 'that bird over there') is interpreted by someone else (rightly as wrongly) as asking for sex in ones perceived mannerisms - perhaps it can go away with the poodle too please?


With regard to alcohol, I'm happy to see that both men and women are seen as being 'at risk' as a result of over consumption

Alleged perpetrators sometimes claim that they were not responsible for their actions because they were intoxicated and had no control over their behaviour.
However, there is evidence that people are able to make reasoned judgments at higher levels of intoxication than generally believed.

"The pharmacological effects of alcohol on human beings make people feel different from when they haven't imbibed.
The meanings given to this experience, i.e., how one interprets these feelings and orders his experience, are provided by the culture in which one is a participant.
If the culture holds that imbibing alcohol produces warm feelings of community solidarity, harmony, and camaraderie, then violence and sexual advances will have no place (e.g., Brandes, 1979).

If, on the other hand, the cultural tradition suggests that the drinker will feel aggressive and sexually aroused and, furthermore, will NOT be held accountable if he acts upon these impulses, then aggression and overt sexual advances are likely to result from drinking (e.g., Hamer, 1980).
Thus, alcohol as a drug can be viewed as an enabler or a facilitator of certain culturally given inebriate states, but it cannot be seen as producing a specific response pattern among all human beings who ingest it." **


It's also good to observe Lizzie quote Det Ch Insp Steve Mogg, head of serious sexual and violent crime at Gwent Police that

"When alcohol is involved things can become blurred and confused but there are no grey areas in regards to sex without consent - as far as the police are concerned we treat that as rape."

People have more control over their drunken behaviour than is generally recognized in Western society.
For example, the Lepcha people of the Himalayas tend to become sexually promiscuous when intoxicated... that behaviour is acceptable when drunk.
But violation of the incest taboo (which extends very far and is highly complex) leads to punishment by certain death.
No matter how drunk they become and how promiscuous they behave, they never violate that complex taboo.
It's simple... they don't want to be executed and suffer a painful death so they control their behaviour no matter how drunk they become ***

Perhaps we can finally agree that dress should not be regarded as an open invitation to rape also?


**An Anthropological View of Ethanol as a Disinhibitor. In: Room, R., and Collins, G. (Eds.) Alcohol and Disinhibition: Nature and Meaning of the Link. Rockville, MD: National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, 1981. pp. 186-204. P. 200.
***MacAndrew, C., and Edgerton, R. Drunken Comportment: A Social Explanation. Chicago, Illinois: Aldine, 1969

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

This will be somewhat scattergun - I have stayed away from this thread because I couldn't stand some of the lunacy, but alas I have been tempted.

Good posts Ruth.

Someone must have a bad memory! Not one man in a thousand fully has control of his penis. When he is young it often goes up when not wanted. When he is old it often goes down when not wanted. There will be nothing (much) he can do about that. That is entirely different from what he does with the penis.

As for the women dressed most as Lizzie loves to criticise being harder to convince - perhaps they get a better range of offers and can therefore be more choosy about which they accept.   That's entirely up to them and none of her business.

If women choose to have sex as often as possible, well that too is their choice not hers and I wish them every enjoyment.   She comes back again and again to the idea that something has to justify women having sex. The only thing that matters is that (or whether) they wish to.   This seems to be what Lizzie is running away from. She wants it seems to disempower women and reduce them to dolls again. There again she seems to want to disempower children by allowing them to skive off school so they remain ignorant and unfulfilled too.

But as to levels of condemnation of rape, there is one threshold and then a gradation. Every rape is a rape and deserves to be condemned and punished as one. Then there may be degrees of aggravation, the use of additional violence, the addition of categories of forced acts, the journeys into other avenues of sexual behaviour (DPP -v- Bourne)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

"jeddy, there have always been unscrupulous and dangerous women around, who loved leading men on, as I have spoken of before."


This is the crux of the perversity of Lizzie's argument: the woman who leads a man on as some dangerous, treacherous jezebel. Yet what makes her so very "dangerous", and to whom? Every "prick tease" that has ever lived in the history of the world is not equivalent in danger to one single rapist.


"There always have been and there always will be. What has happened now though, is that the behaviour of a minority has rippled right out into the behaviour of the majority and that is worrying, very worrying."

No, it hasn't. Again, there is the tendency to view the world with knee-jerk hysteria.

Women who "love leading men on" are not the majority.

Women who get falling down drunk and terrorise town centres of a Saturday night are not the majority.

Women who tart themselves out and set out from their homes and think, "I am going to find a bloke tonight, lead him on, take him home, get him into bed, get him all hot and bothered and then refuse to have sex with him - and I will enjoy this, because it makes me feel powerful," are not only not the majority, they are very rare indeed.



Just wanted to introduce a bit of perspective (and sanity) into the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:22 PM

"Every "prick tease" that has ever lived in the history of the world is not equivalent in danger to one single rapist."

But Ruth... do you not see how totally damaging it is for a man to be given or get an erection and then not be able to deal with itor use it? Fot a woman to make a man's willy rise like that in anger must surely be to invite the most horrid of punishments!

Let us make no allowance for any doubt here, for rape must surely be a horrid punishment. Invading armies have used it for centuries not just to gain sex off the women as they raided villages but as a sign of total disrespect for their enemies menfolk. What greater insult and disrespect is there than to take another man's woman so violently other than to kill her? To subjugate her in such a way is not just a message to her but to the enemy.

Take a look at RAPE for anyone still on doubt as to how dispicable a crime it is and who the real perpetartors are along with who, and only who, should hold responsibility for it... The Rapist.

Your perspective is welcomed Ruth :-)


(And, yes, I am was not being serious in my reaction in case anyone thinks I was saying it's okay).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

It just occurred to me while PMing someone...

What we are advocating is like saying someone who smokes deserves lung cancer. They know the risks and still take it.

Of course that is ludicrous. No-one desrves cancer. And no-one deserves to be raped no matter if they drink, wear a skimpy dress or go somewhere that the rest of us do not agree with. They may be taking risks that we would not take but that risk is not their fault. The risk of harm on them comes from the offender. The offender is the wrongdoer.

To try and wind this rather circular thread up, to save it getting to a point where we all fall out, let me have a show of hands. Yes or no answer. Nothing more please.

Should a victim be blamed for being raped?

I say an unequivocal NO

what say you?

just yes or no

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:12 PM

NO!!!!!

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

do you not see how totally damaging it is for a man to be given or get an erection and then not be able to deal with itor use it?

I think if he was not able to deal with it, it should be taken in hand:-P

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM

Hi mauve

No

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:45 PM

And seconded, Mike - No. Definitely not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:24 PM

No. period.
Re the "Bloody Mary" video: Why anyone would say "This video does have a dark humour in it" totally eludes me. (1). I find it totally revolting, but I hope it is seen by many of those young people whose behaviour is so out of control that they are in danger of ruining their lives. (2)The young woman in the video has obviously behaved extremely unwisely. But if she were raped, the guilt for the rape would fall solely - absolutely solely - on the rapist. I would posit that she would actually be in more danger of ill considered consensual sex, without precautions and with serious risk of tragic consequences, than in danger of rape.

As regards this from Lizzie, "there have always been unscrupulous and dangerous women around, who loved leading men on, as I have spoken of before. There always have been and there always will be. What has happened now though, is that the behaviour of a minority has rippled right out into the behaviour of the majority" How dare you imply that the behaviour of the seriously disturbed, horribly twisted woman whom that statement refers back to is even remotely reflected in the behaviour of the majority of young women today.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:33 PM

No! period; no ifs and buts

and second what frogprince said too

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:39 PM

I've just watched the 'Bloody Mary' video and if anyone, bar none, would think that the young lady in that would induce desire in any normal man then they are seriously sick. Even the pissed up young blokes are heard to comment 'That's disgusting. That's gross'.

If that is an example of what Lizzie calls irresponsible behavior then yes, she is quite right. If she thinks, howver, it could induce a man to rape then she has got a seriously sick view of men. Glad we don't have to put up with it any more (fat chance).

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM

Mauvepink.....I've been watching the endless repetition of the "victim should not be blamed for rape"

why does everybody keep repeating this like a mantra.
We are all agreed on that point.

You make a very good analogy with cancer and smoking.
Nobody "deserves to get cancer" full stop no argument.
With the information available today, a smoker who developes cancer, must shoulder a large slice of responsibility for causing the disease to to develope.

In some areas, that responsiblity is looked upon so seriously, that medical services are refusing to treat some patients who refuse to stop smoking.

We must all bear some responsibility for our own health and safety....anything else is sheer political dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

"What we are advocating is like saying someone who smokes deserves lung cancer. They know the risks and still take it."

I disagree Mauvepink.

They are different as follows.


Smoking cigarettes causes cancer.



Wearing tarty clotthes/getting drunk/agreeing to or offering to share a private drink with someone do not cause rape.

Rapists cause rape.


The analogy is false.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:16 PM

MP.....the analogy is in fact sound,and obviously based on the risk factor involved.

This should be perfectly clear to any unbiased participant in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

From Richard:

"She wants it seems to disempower women and reduce them to dolls again."

Eh?

Er...isn't having self-respect far more empowering, Richard? I dunno, p'raps this IS what feminism was all about..women have sex, rather than wanting love...women getting stoned, rather than being in control..women flaunting their bodies, or dancing round poles, 'cos they know that the men will be simply watching their brains, staggered at their intelligence...

Yeah, right...

Feminism = Pole Dancing! I think I got it now....

And I'm afraid that those pussycat dolls are all around us right now, not a thing of the past. I don't want to turn them back to dolls, I want to stop them being seen as dolls!


"Living Dolls analyses the increasing sexualisation of feminity and the extent to which young women are led to believe that their bodies are their only passport to success.

Far from relations between the sexes flourishing emotionally and physically, against a backdrop of mutual respect, understanding and equality, a generation of young girls is interpreting liberation as the right to behave like top-shelf models. These women, interviewed by Walter, are also committed to no-strings sex, celebrating one-night stands as notches on their designer handbags. For them, STDs are almost a badge of honour, eating disorders commonplace and men who talk of love and commitment are sneered at for "going soppy"."

The above is taken from here:
The Telegraph, January 2010 -'Feminism, what went wrong?'

Yup, we're right back here again. "Got myself a crying, talking...."



"There again she seems to want to disempower children by allowing them to skive off school so they remain ignorant and unfulfilled too."

Eh? Eh?

WHAT makes you think, or believe, that children can ONLY be 'edukated' in schools, Richard? That has always puzzled me, but heyho...I see things very differently.

"It's absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to sit in confinement with people of exactly the same age and social class. That system effectively cuts you off from the immense diversity of life and the synergy of variety; indeed it cuts you off from your own past and future, sealing you in a continuous present much the same way television does..." – John Taylor Gatto

"Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die." – John Taylor Gatto

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM

Feminism = Pole Dancing! I think I got it now....

Well you sure got something ......
Please keep it to yourself!

I'm sorry but this is just stupidity and bigotry incarnate and has no place on a self respecting forum

Care in the Community?

Poor mudcat:(

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM

White coats please.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

I been provoked. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

Now I really do have to get poodling OUT of this thread...it's getting a little worrying how many posts I've put down in here. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Back again. Time to come back - I make it 7 hours 28 minutes.

Not a record of course but close.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

No Ake,


Smoking causes cancer.


Wearing tarty clothes does not cause rape.


I know you've had a triple brain bypass, but surely even you can see that distinction.


I'd be curious to hear from Mauvepink exactly how broad the term "Ludicrous" was meant to be.


I would include Ake within its boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

All this brouhaha is largely due to a confusion between responsibility (an active causative mind-set) and blame (a passive received flow from others).

Every individual sooner or later must take complete responsibility for who and where they are and every choice that brought them there. That includes a lass who gets raped, or a guy who ends up with a weird and unlovely partner in his bed after a blotto evening out. Or a gal who ends up being ignored by everyone, or a guy who does likewise.

That is not the same as deciding--in terms of socilal justice--who is to blame for a crime such as rape. There's one perpetrator (barring extremes of false enticement). The one with the pointy bit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:34 PM

Exactly so Amos....and if I may say so, concise and very much to the point.

I just knew we would agree some day.:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:39 PM

Lox wrote "I'd be curious to hear from Mauvepink exactly how broad the term "Ludicrous" was meant to be."

Ludicrous as in anyone actually thinking anyone deserved cancer just because they took the risk that is known. The point you raise is a fair one. Yes. People do know that smoking causes cancer but no-one smokes to get cancer.

However, my analogy was off key in so much as the point you raised.

What I was trying to say is, even though the risks are known, no-one would say a person deserved cancer or went out looking for it.

So, as regards rape, why blame any victim for their drinking, dress sense, or otherwise? But the analogy still fails and I respect what you are saying.

Akenaton... I have to agree with Lox regarding my faulty analogy. You wrote... "Mauvepink.....I've been watching the endless repetition of the "victim should not be blamed for rape"

why does everybody keep repeating this like a mantra.
We are all agreed on that point"

So why not answer the question I raised to try and end this repetition?

yes or no? What do YOU say? Just a simple yes or no?


thank you

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM

"Every individual sooner or later must take complete responsibility for who and where they are and every choice that brought them there. That includes a lass who gets raped,... etc"

Am sorry Amos but I must disagree. The responsibility for being raped has to sit with the rapist.

Not to forget either that many peope are raped every day of their lives in brothels where they are kept prisoner after being taken abroad as sex slaves. What of the women raped by armies? Is it their fault they are in a war zone?

So I'm afraid your argument is fallascious in as much that not everyone has a free choice to happen to be where they are. So many victims are also victims of circumstances way outside any responsibility or control they may have over or within their lives and situation.

I am sure that these kind of victims missed your thoughts when you wrote what you have for I know you as one who is usually thoughful about what you do write.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

I'm not talking and never have spoken of dress.
My point concerns women who with no regard to their safety, go to a strangers home, on their own after a nights drinking and indulge in sexual foreplay with said stranger.

Whether you wish to stand by what you said or not, the analogy still stands on the risk factor.

Regarding your question, which I have answered many times already,
the victim is never to blame for the crime, but always, to some degree responsible for their own safety.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM

"...the victim is never to blame for the crime, but always, to some degree responsible for their own safety. "

And when the safety fails and someone rapes them? Whose responsibility is it then?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

"Whether you wish to stand by what you said or not..."

I stand by what I said at the time I wrote it but, in light of Lox's comments, I respect the pertinent point he uses to show a flaw in the analogy. I am not afraid to say when I may have used something that did not stand up to scrutiny in light of being shown otherwise.

Lox was right to raise the flaw in my opinion and thinking

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:03 PM

I dont understand your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:10 PM

and in your second post you are being disingenuous.
I have no respect for people who behave like that, you are in good company with Lox I think....a coward who is unable or unwilling to apologise for two unprovoked and untrue slurs against me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

"responsibility (an active causative mind-set)"

Nope - sorry.

As you will see below in the cut and paste at the botom of this post, this use of "responsibility" is wrong.

Responsibility refers to several DISTINCT and DIFFERENT definitions.

When we talk about who is responsible for a rape, we look to definition no 2 below.

"an instance of being responsible:"

ie - who is to blame.

This is not the same thing as behaving responsibly, which is defined in definition no 1 below.

"the state or fact of being responsible."


This is a different meaning with a different usage.


It is also wrong to misuse definition 3 and say that the government and the police, in a position of responsibility, are responsible for rape. In fact, they are responsible for protecting society from rapists.

And it is also wrong to misapply definition 4, to suggest that a rape victim is responsible for the behaviour of the rapist in the way that a mother is responsible for her childs behaviour.


Misusing a word does not make n argument stronger, it makes it nonsensical.


And saying that a rape victim is responsible for being raped is nonsense.

As you can see below.

re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
   /rɪˌspɒnsəˈbɪlɪti/ Show Spelled[ri-spon-suh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
–noun,plural-ties.
1.
the state or fact of being responsible.

2.
an instance of being responsible: The responsibility for this mess is yours!
3.
a particular burden of obligation upon one who is responsible: the responsibilities of authority.
4.
a person or thing for which one is responsible: A child is a responsibility to its parents.
5.
reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments.
—Idiom
6.
on one's own responsibility, on one's own initiative or authority: He changed the order on his own responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:17 PM

Ake,

I'm not running away from you.

I'm right in front of you confirming in absolute and certain terms that I think you are a bigot, a homophobe, a racist, a fantasist and a shit stirrer.

And I will not be apologizing to you.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:30 PM

MP both you and your friend are grasping at straws.
Everybody realises .....if they are being honest and not just toadying up to one another, that we all must accept a degree of responsibility for our actions.

I f Amos and I can agree on that, then it must make sense!!

Now, I intend to say no more, the points have been made and no amount of squirming will change them ....good night.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:41 PM

"we all must accept a degree of responsibility for our actions."



So a rapist is responsible for his actions.

His action was rape.


And the victim is responsible for her actions.

Her actions do not include Rape.


So the responsibility for the rape lies with the rapist and not the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

The victim of a rape is not responsible for the action of the rapist. But she is entirely responsible for every step of her life that brought her, through a chain of decisions and actions, to the place where it occurred. Just as you are wholly responsible for being in front of your screen tonight touching a keyboard. If you don't own your own actions, you surely become a target for other people's. This in NO way is intended to shift the blame for a rape to anyone but the perpetrator. It is a different thing, a mind-set of assuming you did cause the many things you did cause that placed you where you are.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM

OK. What happens to the stuff on this thread if we change the thread title to

'Some murder victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM

I had already addressed that one, Bruce. I am only speaking for myself of course but I believe that the actions of some murder victims do ensure they 'take blame', if that is the right phrase. Look at the cases of long term abuse from a partner where the other, usualy wife, takes the life of her husband because she has had enough or fears for the safetly of her children. To me that is justified. There is no similar mitigation in rape. Just my opinion.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM

"and in your second post you are being disingenuous.
I have no respect for people who behave like that, you are in good company with Lox I think....a coward who is unable or unwilling to apologise for two unprovoked and untrue slurs against me. "

akenaton I have lost no sleep whatsover over this attack. To suggest I am a coward for agreeing with someone you do not agree with is typical of you. Why will YOU not answer the question I put directly to YOU? Stop talking about everyone and do what a lot did. Answer yourself for yourself. Yes or no.

Your respect for me? Your choice. It's my fault you do not respect me because I dared to say something on a forum you do not agree with. There, responsibility shifted. Have it your own way again... I can certainly live quite well on the respect I have for myself, what I think and what issues from my mouth.

Why is it when some people disagree on a thread that some have to take it down to either foul language, insults, name calling or all three sometimes? Whose responsibility is that? The person being disagreed with or the person slinging the mud? I certainly will not engage you in name calling.

But that does not make you any more correct in your accusation.

respectfully your

mp