BS: Pope OKs condom use...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 03:26 PM

Well, Peter, I believe the statistics show that Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors - which seems to me an indication that Catholics understand that their leaders are celibate old men who don't really know what they're talking about. So, they take what the old men have to say that's worthwhile, and take the birth control stuff with a grain of salt.

So, it the pope takes a position on birth control and Catholics ignore it, why get all worried about it and accuse the pope of killing or whatever???

The Catholic Church has a lot of diversity, and Catholics don't march in lockstep with their leaders. It doesn't operate by Central Office issuing orders that everyone obeys. It's more of a culture than a rigid structure. Sure, the rules and doctrines and authority structures are there - but they are far less rigid and far less powerful than outsiders might think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:39 PM

Themesong for the Pope, "Thank heaven for little boys".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:46 PM

So, Frank, was that necessary?
Do you have any reason to accuse the Pope of pedophilia?
And what's the difference between your statement and other forms of prejudice?
If blacks or gays or filipinos or whatever committed crimes at the same percentage rate as Catholic priests, what would you have to say about them as a group?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 06:53 PM

I agree Joe, I think our leaders, political or religious, should deal in the highest denominators....not the lowest.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:04 PM

Joe
Very well said IMO ... I could not agree stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM

It takes ten minutes to teach someone to use a condom. It takes years, if not lifetimes, to teach or otherwise inspire a responsible attitude. Given the number of sexual events per capita in an at-risk population, the math demonstrates, as I have roughly sketched it out here, that the Pope is dreaming and has no idea of the realities involved.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

You know, Amos, the Pope is in the business of values - long-term, idealistic values. Somehow, it might be good to have a home for people who are concerned about sexuality and fidelity as an ideal - even if they don't always live up to it. When we're talking about "number of sexual events per capita in an at-risk population," we're not talking about people who are deeply concerned about spirituality and values and fidelity.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:29 PM

I believe the statistics show that Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors

That may well be true; I do not profess to know. However in Africa that rate is obviously much lower than in many other places. Actively discouraging the use of condoms there is tantamount to mass murder on a gargantuan scale, and the Pope cannot possibly be ignorant of that fact. I accept that his religious beliefs may be more important to him than the lives of a few million Africans but that doesn't make him right. Perhaps he may be more concerned for their 'souls' than their bodies, I don't know. What I do know is, he's profoundly wrong. If there is such a thing as 'evil', he seems to me to be the embodiment of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM

Give me statistics, Smokey. In 60 years as a Catholic, I have rarely heard the topic of birth control mentioned from the pulpit. The only statistics I have see show that, as I said, Catholics use birth control methods at about the same rate as their non-Catholic neighbors - worldwide.
As far as I can see, failure to use birth control is far more a cultural thing, than it is religious. My friend, the priest from Rwanda, gives me the impression it's a cultural taboo - to which he fully subscribes. He also believes that sex is something for married couples. Why do you think people are going to follow the Pope's restriction on condoms, if they don't follow what the Pope says about sexual fidelity? Do you really think people in Africa are that stupid?

So, anybody want to say how horrible it is for the Pope to promote sexual fidelity? Is that a horrible thing that kills people?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:46 PM

"Actively discouraging"??????

That is exactly what is being done.

I approach this discussion... unfortunately???... from both sides. I agree with everyone. You are all correct.

Problem is, you can't meet half way, have a BBQ and some liquids, converse, eh? And sort shit out, eh? Hosers.

Ya know, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM

Joe - I'm not sure what statistics you would like me to provide - my point is that condom use in Africa is less common than in many other places. You seem to be saying that as well. Encouragement of condom use will save many more lives than discouragement. I don't think I need to provide statistics to demonstrate that, it's common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM

There's nothing wrong with promoting sexual fidelity, but there's a lot wrong with promoting the lie that it is going to fix Africa's AIDS problem more effectively than condoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM

Smokey, I'm saying that people in Africa don't use condoms because they don't want to use condoms, for cultural and personal reasons - not because some religious leader tells them not to use them. It's very nice for paternalistic and all-knowing Europeans and Americans to tell them it's healthy to use condoms, but why in the world should they listen to paternalistic and all-knowing Americans and Europeans who colonized and raped and impoverished them for centuries?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:04 PM

Good point Joe, but irrelevant to the one I was making. I think it's the moral responsibilty of someone with as much influence as the Pope to encourage what is obviously the most humane solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:26 PM

Smokey... come on. The Big P is not PROMOTING the idea... he is telling people it is the only proven way to beat STDs.

I am all for rubbers on a wet day.

But, this is what I mean by half way..... if you cannot accept that truth, how can you say that rubbers are better?

Before I alienate anyone else, read my lips. I am not disagreeing with you... I am disagreeing with your logic and your conclusions, which, to me are exclusive of the fact that humans are capable of reason and logic. Anyone that wants to simulate mating at random should use a condom. At least, those with ANY intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM

If Africa was starting from scratch with no AIDS problem, then 100% sexual fidelity would in all probability prevent it. Unfortunately they already have the problem, and at this stage condoms are without doubt the most effective option. I've nothing whatsoever against the promotion of fidelity itself, my problem is with him actively discouraging condom use.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:34 PM

I suppose that's a problem with churches, Smokey. They can present the ideal, knowing that the ideal is well-nigh impossible (even for their own clergy). They're not very good at telling people what to do when they have to compromise ideals - that's where people have to figure things out for themselves, I guess.

So, what's the Pope supposed to say: Don't have promiscuious sex - but, by the way, here's how to use a condom when you do have promiscuous sex. Why not depend on non-religious groups to promote condoms, and not force the churches to compromise their ideals? But as far as "actively discouraging condom use," how "active" is the Catholic campaign against condoms? It sure isn't very active here in the United States.

Should the Catholic Church offer alternatives to priests who just can't be celibate? (Well, I think they ought to be able to get married, but if celibacy is the rule, I think they ought to be celibate with no alternatives)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:43 PM

I'd be happy if the Pope, particularly when in Africa, refrained from discouraging the use of condoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:20 PM

I don't see whats wrong with them priest being happy and celebrating? I mean that's a pretty good thing. Course if somebody is forcin you to celebrate and all, well, that there is different cause if youre feelin sad then maybe you shouldnt hav to celibrate.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 09:46 PM

how "active" is the Catholic campaign against condoms?

I imagine the great majority of the 'civilized' world is aware of the Vatican's stance on birth control.

Wasn't it the great philosopher Monty Python who coined the phrase "The world's fastest growing religion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:20 PM

The vast majority of the world also has a strong stance against smoking but it doesn't stop people from doing so ....

Like Joe said, there is no active campaign that I ever heard of with any catholic going out with signs or protesting birth control .. The pope stance on birth control was one he gave to catholics ... most of which disregard it

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:23 PM

Not in Africa, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:23 PM

Oh, I thought he okay ed them to keep young Catholic boys from getting pregnant, by priests.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:26 PM

Like Joe said, there is no active campaign that I ever heard of with any catholic going out with signs or protesting birth control ..

My point is that they do not need to do that in most places because everyone is already well aware of their policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:40 PM

Correct, and if one is not catholic why would they care. And if one is catholic they will do what every catholic I know does and say what does this have to do with the sacraments nothing and ignore it. Now should he be making off the cuff comments ... no .. but if he is ask should he lie about the way he feels .. no ... so he is the bad guy for stating his beliefs ... and he is the one that is causing the aids crisis ...

no he isn't ... no more than any of the off the wall comments I hear from other demonimations or religions or atheists for that matter.

people somehow think the guy holds all this power .. fact is .. he doesn't hold any power except when it comes to the catholic belief in the sacraments. And those deal with faith not worldly issues.

As I said before, should he say things like that, no it is not good for anyone but if he chooses to answer a question he is asked he will not lie and will say how he feels ... and to me that is what he should do .. Joe is right

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:45 PM

I was not aware that he was answering a question, but if that was the case he should certainly given a more diplomatic answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:54 PM

Smokey I agree, there are better ways of dealing with it. Aids is one of the great crisis in this world. Even a hint of anything that could possibly cause even 1 more infection is wrong thinking ... it would be nice if the whole world followed a righteous path but it doesn't and we have to deal with aids and let the medical professional do their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 10:59 PM

I agree. (There follows a metaphorical shaking of hands)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:03 PM

The best thing he could have done when he was asked about aids and the passing out of condoms was just say I let the medical professionals handle the medical issues I deal with issues of God then.. no problems ...

but he choose to answer and he answers truthfully how he feels .. not good for him or anyone else I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:10 PM

Exactly. He did it more than once as well, if I remember correctly. I'd have thought a man in his position would have more of a clue than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:21 PM

Well it certainly doesn't help the crisis in Africa for sure. No matter what a persons believe system is or is not. The belief cannot be in any person - people can and do fail. It can only be in God since he doesn't fail ... or if your system is not God then in Nature or Earth or something much greater than man as you choose. For me it is in Christ, a man will always fail God won't for me

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:24 PM

Joe:

I respect that the Pope is in the business of long-term, ideal values.   

That being the case, he should be less inclined to impose short-term moral strictures on human behavior. People will steer themselves straight, given the right viewpoint and understanding they can take as their own; but if they are driven by ad hoc orders and arbitrary strictures, with out understanding, they will resign themselves, sneak out the back, or blow up. It's the nature of the beast, IMHO.

Telling people not to use a prophylactic because they should be better than all that just doesn't strike me as a workable formulation.

No offense meant.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 11:33 PM

I'm not religious, and I would never judge anyone purely on the basis of their beliefs. I'm criticising the Pope more on political grounds as the head of a large corporation with what I see as a very significant influence. Idealism is a far greater danger than religion alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 12:06 AM

Smokey
and I truly respect your position and where you were coming from
I know there was no intent to slam anyone's belief just working from the aids point of view and I don't disagree at all

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 12:14 AM

Much appreciated OldDude, though it was more a case of thinking outloud (gobflappery) than directed at you personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

Most people now, have been conditioned into accepting not "homophobia", but something much worse.....fear of the truth and of any responsibility for what happens to them.

It seems to me that the promotion and normalisation of destructive lifestyles like homosexuality and widespread promiscuity is totally wrong and to promote ways of lessening the effects of these destructive lifestyles rather than confronting the issues head on is short term and cowardly.
Like Joe, I often agree with Peter's views, but this time I think he has got it wrong, perhaps allowing religious prejudice to colour his judgement.

If we want to change what is acceptable in human behaviour we must not buy our heads when unpleasant truths begin to appear.
As a religious and moral leader the Pope is correct to condemn the practices which are causing the deaths in the first place.

Supporting condom use, without addressing the faults in our society which seem to have led to the explosion of the disease, not only weakens the moral position, but salves the consciences of those liberals who promote the "anything goes, everyone must have their "rights" at any cost mentality".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM

As opposed to your unclouded judgement in reference to homosexuality as a destructive lifestyle, I suppose.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Stu
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 01:40 PM

"perhaps allowing religious prejudice to colour his judgement"

Any prejudices colouring your judgement?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM

Supporting condom use, without addressing the faults in our society which seem to have led to the explosion of the disease, not only weakens the moral position, but salves the consciences of those liberals who promote the "anything goes, everyone must have their "rights" at any cost mentality

He addressed the 'faults' and condemned condom use though. He'd have a lot more respect from me if he addressed those same faults in his own heirarchy of staff (for want of the correct expression) before trying to impose his ridiculous idealistic values on people who would be better off without them. Some people will die horribly as a direct result of his speeches in Africa. I don't know how many, but any number is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM

Many millions will die horribly in Africa because of our exploitative colonisation and its aftermath, our desire to organise humanity for personal and National gain makes us all serial killers.

I have no religion, but more and more I see the ground rules religion lays down on how we should conduct our lives, have in general terms proved to be reliable. Especially in a society like ours, where the lunatics appear to have taken over the asylum.

BTW Peter, my views on homosexuality as a destructive lifestyle are easily proved.....the figures are all there in black and white,if you care to look.
Homosexuality will of course always be with us and should be viewed with compassion, but to promote it as a normal healthy lifestyle is sheer madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:40 PM

I remember in the 1960's the Pope at that time wrote a book called "The Pillsgrim Progress"

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 03:56 PM

Many millions will die horribly in Africa because of our exploitative colonisation and its aftermath

Quite right, but that doesn't excuse what the Pope did.

And wasn't our exploitative colonisation done in the name of Christianity?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM

Heterosexuality is the most destructive lifestyle in history. The figures are all there in living colour. It has sown a swath of misery and death across this poor planet. How many people's lives have been ruined by its pernicious urges, its insidiousness, its carelessness, its terrible burdens?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM

It aint jus this pope feller what has a problem with rubbers. Right here where I live The Church of Evangelical Hollering and Tongue-Talking Mohunkers don't like 'em much either. A few years back Catspaw put on The Super Mind Altering and Semi-Patriotic Firewoks Display and Flaming Asshole Gala and me an Paw an the Reg Boys messed up and had an accident which caused the condom factory across from their church to explode and cover their place of worship in latex. I dunno what the pope guy has against them rubbers but I DO KNOW what the Mohunkers hate about 'em.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM

Good point Smokey, but I think colonisation was all about personal greed and national power.....Christianity was certainly used as a convenient tool, to keep what was really happening from the "national perception".......something like handing out condoms really.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM

It could be argued that heterosexuality is the cause of homosexuality anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:14 PM

Thats not a debating point Peter.....Thats a philosophy!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:15 PM

I think colonisation was all about personal greed and national power

Yes it was, but so is Christianity, historically speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM

Not true Christianity Smokey...what we turned it into.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope OKs condom use...
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM

When?