BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:16 PM

In a better England with a climate like Nice. Or a climate like some parts of Queensland without the cane toads floods and right wing politicians like Bjelke-Peterson. Or a climate like the Balearics. In any case without mossies!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:38 PM

Ah, Richard, dream on! But in the real world, now?...

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:56 PM

"Must have got something right then, mustn't she?!"
Can think of a Chilean mass murderer who would have agreed with you wholeheartedly had he not gone to joint the choir invisibule
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 01:06 PM

I quite like France - but mostly not the French people. I seem to get on well with most Caribbeans I have met. I liked England in the late 60s and early 70s - indeed most of the 70s. I like almost everything about Skandiwegia apart from the cold, and the price of booze.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 01:26 PM

Mistake to judge views solely by who might have agreed with them, Jim. I agree with Hitler about smoking; but not about much else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 01:37 PM

"Mistake to judge views solely by who might have agreed with them, Jim."
Still doesn't excuse the fact that she helped him avoid going to trial for the massacring of thousands - mainly young people.
You can't choose your rlatives, but you do have to take responsibility for choosing your friends - in this case, by activly supporting a mass murderer albeit, after the fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 01:48 PM

where would i rather live? don't want to live anywhere else but the lakes or scotland - for all the faults,the ruling classes and the daily mail -this is my home. i would love french weather and employment law but could not live without fantastic countryside ,great music, good pubs and and friends and family. the idea that 'if this government does that i'm leaving' i will leave to the wealthy types who could not bear the injustice and indignity of having to pay 5% more tax on the top level of income tax that they don't pay. are they and you MtheGm not interested in trying to make their country fairer, better for everyone? are you happy to see the NHS and welfare system sold off and gutted? we can learn from other countries -french revolution, scandinavian social fairness, sound german economics -and they are good to visit. they all have their own radical traditions and we have ours and it is one in urgent need of revivial-we can't do that by writing sour-faced e-mails from the costa del ex-pat.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 02:09 PM

Mr Blair was arguably complicit in the deaths of thousands, yet if a poll was held on Mudcat.....or I suppose the country, he would win by a landslide against MrsT.

No, if we are talking of war crimes, Mr Blair should be first for the hangmans reel.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM

"we can learn from other countries"

About the proper use of capital letters, for instance?   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 02:43 PM

"No, if we are talking of war crimes, Mr Blair should be first for the hangmans reel."

Wouldn't argue with that and he may yet be called to answer alongside GWB.

But he'd decided very early on that he wanted to wear Maggie Thatcher's knickers, hadn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 02:46 PM

....actually just seen there's a thread been started on the "War Crimes" theme - will be useful to cross reference.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 03:12 PM

thatcher was doing what tories do if they can. whereas blair was doing what tories do if we let them. at least she was true to her supporters -he was a traitor to his.
orwell (or Orwell for the pedants) said something like - england is a much-loved dysfunctional family with all the wrong people in control. sounds about right-but it's still our family.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 03:19 PM

Well, no Cock. Blair was a scion of the wealthy educated at Fettes. Thatcher was at best middle class and went to a grammar school. I agree with your closing words to a certain extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:12 PM

I would put Thatcher's roots as Working-Class. Her old man was a corner-shopkeeper in a small market town - hardly qualifies as the equal of, say, a doctor or lawyer? More the equivalent of a shop-floor foreman in industry. Yep, definitely nowhere near Middle-Class, obviously Working-Class.

And her lifelong rage at her own lowly beginnings was what drove her loathing for, and viciousness against, those who shared her roots. She hated them because she hated herself for her own "common-ness" (her speech, of course, betrayed her - she would no doubt have had a natural Lincolnshire accent, which she tried to disguise by metaphorically inserting a pound of plums in her mouth. Never quite came off - her posh-talk always sounded affected and 'put on'. Another betrayal of her roots).

IMHO. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:37 PM

I dunno about working class. All the shopkeepers kids went in the A class at primary and grammar school in boston. They were big wheels compared to all the wage earning plebs in the Lincolnshire town where I grew up.

You had to see those class divisions to believe them.

Petty bourgeois - i think maybe that's the term.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:57 PM

Middle class rather than upper middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:09 AM

surely it's irrelevant where you come from if what you do is at odds with that start. when thatcher was hanging about with friedman and pinochet and pursuing ruthless anti-worker policies it didn't matter where she started. and blair with bush and the warmongers - they were both aggressive free-market capitalists with all the violence and inhumanity that implies. if you happen to live in a country that has managed to resist that cruel ideology you are lucky. here, we have to fight against it-again-to preserve what rights we have and to try to win some back. and try to have a laugh while doing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 03:40 AM

Thatcher was middle class, working class people don't own a business, no matter how small.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:00 AM

Class my ass!(US),we're all just people, whether scrabbling to survive or trying to make a fortune.

The whole idea of "class warfare" is simply another divisive tactic to stop real dialogue.

There is only one thing which scares the shit out of the people who run this system.......unity!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:16 AM

obviously Akes in this together with Cameron.....

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

"working class people don't own a business, no matter how small."

That's funny we have around 200 self employed manual workers as clients - all owning their business and all very ill spoken (wasting our time with Child Tax Credit Claims) working class.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:56 AM

You only have part of the definition of working class there Bonzo. The power of command or its absence come into the equation too.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:39 AM

Al...I have honestly never voted Tory....and Cameron seems the type of guy that I would walk a mile to avoid....just like Blair.

But that does not stop me acknowledging that there are some aspects of social conservatism which are benefitial to society.

"liberalism" has come to mean abdication of personal responsibility.....the "someone else ill fix it" syndrome,usually the state, or anyone but "me".
Thats before we start on a benefit system which de-humanises us, an "equality" agenda which promotes "victimhood" as a positive state of mind,and has become an unaffordable idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 08:56 AM

Sounds like for someone trying to avoid Scameron you've already been pretty brainwashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

I `ad that Nadine Dorries in my cab the other day, in the business sense, you understand. She`s a big old gal but well turned out.
I said, " Morning Nads. You`ve got them posters on that Mudcat going on about you. Did you go into one about Dave and Gleggy `cos you`re losing your constituency when they change the boundaries?"
She said, "Not at all, Jim. It `as nothing to do with that. I think they are both two faced and out of touch with life today. They are just out for themselves."
I said, "I s`pose you`d know all about that after the Parliamentary expenses scandal!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:58 AM

"Thats before we start on a benefit system which de-humanises us, an "equality" agenda which promotes "victimhood" as a positive state of mind,and has become an unaffordable idiocy."

Although I've been arguing mostly on the "leftish" side of the fence on this thread, I think this is partially true . The problem comes in getting machinery to discriminate between genuine cases of hardship and "dependency as a way of life" - it is unfortunate that the weakest generally end up the real "victims" as opposed to those who know how to "play the system".

Do we really trust the people sitting at the desks are good enough to make fair decisions?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:54 PM

Well I'm not sure that I agree. Why shouldn't people who are down on their luck not be entotled to self respect and a positive self image. Just basic human dignity. We are not defined by our circumstances - a man or woman is not merely a member of the unemployed or a medical condition - eg a paraplegic. he may be all those things and yet be a poet or a philospher, or artist.

Humanity is the gold standard that we are all entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:30 PM

sadly it isn't 'the people sitting at their desks' who make the decisions with benefit claims - nor is it your gp who has any say about whether you qualify for disability benefit. the job centre staff are over-worked and generally do their best to be sympathetic and helpful. the crucial decisions for claimants are made by a french computer. it is beyond me how so many people can become so agitated about people with nothing maybe fiddling a few quid in the most difficult circumstances while seemingly unconcerned about the far more costly and criminal activities of the wealthy and powerful. we are a very rich country where no-one needs to suffer the misery of poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:46 PM

Agreed Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:36 PM

For fuck sake!...its not about poor people fiddling a few quid, its about a system which is prepared to countenance huge swathes of the population who have no "purpose in life" other than drawing their weekly giro.
The benefit system is not there to help poor people ...it is there to keep them quiet!

1 in 5 of our kids unemployed.....for ever, and nobody says a word.
Why are they condemned to a life without meaning?
Because this system still measures the value of humanity in pounds and pense.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:12 PM

Unemployment (or inability to do a job) is not caused by benefits. It's the economy stupid.

Benefits make it better, not worse - and indeed boost money circulation and effective demand.

There are very very few on benefits of any kind who would not rather be earning in a job - not least because most real jobs pay more.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:59 PM

Rather an aside to the discussion underway here, but I recall how profoundly affected I was a year or two ago on visiting a folk museum housing a number of traditional crafts displays.

A cobblers for one, which demonstrated the thoroughness of the work required to fix a pair of shoes. Another display showcased cider making, and the beautiful machinery involved, machinery which once forged lasted generations.

I left with a real sense of how the industrial revolution had in fact destroyed the working classes and reduced them to push button automatons numbly repeating actions which provided nothing more than a shabby product for conspicuous consumption by their economic betters. It really made me want to re-read some Marx.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 12:38 AM

Greetings from a bored bloke waiting for a delayed flight in Dubia. Must be bored to have read this thread.

I believe Bridge calls this thread something about posh boys running politics or something like that. (hard to scroll up all the time when using phone. ). There's something about style, substance and outcome here. If Cameron delivered a social program funded by economic growth, I wouldn't really care what his particular favourite brand of cavia was. Likewise, I have not been impressed up to yet with this coalition but wish to see any government succeed at pragmatic outcomes rather than be bitter, twisted and giggling at every cock up they make.

A question for a few of the usual suspects. Would you wish to see your views turn info reality through democratic means or isn't democracy a required process? You see, speaking as an ex miner who was out in 84, I saw Scargill claim every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike, which was curious as my pit voted not to, but the delegate said we had. A few lads questioned this and two ended up in hospital, and some others, yours truly included, were reminded of the time our wives took our children to nursery etc.

Be careful when comparing those who wish to govern and those who wish to govern. Their background and ideology is closer to each other than you may think.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:30 AM

I think maybe your view of the miners strike depends on where you lived as much as anything. I had a miner/roadie at the time who similarly railroaded by the other lot. And in the end who was lying about the future of the mining industry under the tories - Scargill, or Thatcher and Tebbit. Tebbit I seem to remember guaranteeing that not a single miner would lose their jobs.

We had to have coppers patroling our street to protect the houses of NUM members.You were closer to Yorkshire, Ian. I was in the Sutton in Ashfield area.

What a long time ago it seems....

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:05 AM

Richard...I cant believe you wrote that last post, a simplistic cop-out if ever I heard one.

I think you know exactly what I meant....that people do not matter to the leaders of this "democracy", if they are not viable, financially competitive "units".
" give them just enough to keep them fed, quiet and dependent.....and let the bastards rot"

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:09 AM

Guest CS....I agree with quite a lot of your post.

Worth a thread on its own!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:58 AM

"Worth a thread on its own!"

Maybe, though I'm no historian so I couldn't make any real objective case for the feelings I came away with.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:37 AM

Ake - I quite agree with your synthesis at 0305 Mudcat time, but most of the time I have great difficulty fathoming your meaning.   I thought you were proposing to remove benefits. That would be an uncivilised proposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:38 AM

Mither - I was following Nadine Dorries' summation.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:15 AM

"I saw Scargill claim every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike, which was curious as my pit voted not to, but the delegate said we had. A few lads questioned this and two ended up in hospital, and some others, yours truly included, were reminded of the time our wives took our children to nursery etc."

Scargill was a hideous arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:09 AM

"""liberalism" has come to mean abdication of personal responsibility.....the "someone else ill fix it" syndrome,usually the state, or anyone but "me".""

BLOODY HELL!

That tears it, good and proper. I agree with Akenaton

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:24 AM

See! We dont have to come out of the same political egg to find common ground.
Common sense always trumps political ideology, thats what I've been trying to say ever since I fell into this snake pit.

We should try to examine every issue and see if there is anything positive there, try to pay attention to the facts and not be ruled by political doctrine.....as political doctrine is always manipulation of one kind or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:58 AM

Which was your pit then bonzo ? I didn't know you were a collier back then, and in Yorkshire ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

Bonzo was quoting from Ian Mather's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM

memo to me ' must read all the messages '

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:57 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:58 AM

'Guest' above was me, BTW, posting from my work computer which seems not to want to store cookies any more.
But I finish for good on Monday, Free At Last, so who gives a flying fuck any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:25 AM

Good luck fella.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 05:27 AM

That word "retirement" has a lovely ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arrogant Posh Boys (UK politics)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 06:27 AM

"Substantial Pension" sounds better still.