BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:17 AM

I think it's really sad whenever one fear-based reaction begets another one.... that these matters are so often perceived as two differing and opposing sides.... when actually what you usually have is people who actually share a commonality-- fear-- that could move them toward a different way of responding. Reactivity is so normal but so NOT constructive. I grieve when I see anyone dramatizing a belief system in such a way that what they primarily portray is a lack of deep, inner peace. To me, that shows a need for loving reassurance, but instead what so often happens is mutual intimidation. And there's the challenge, eh? How to respond so that real connection can breed real conversation, real relationship?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Cluin
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:21 AM

I saw it as just a reaching-back to the old storyteller-around-the-campfire idea, myself. Don't they tell ghost stories at bible camps?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Yes Cluin - back in the days when I used to go to them, they did.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Nerd
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:16 PM

Yes, the remarks concerning the celebration of Easter were first of all inaccurate and then misunderstood. The poster originally meant that the name "Easter" is only used in English-speaking countries. Actually, as Wolfgang points out, it is Germanic-speaking countries (and English is still at its base a Germanic language) that use the old Teutonic name.

It was apparently misunderstood by some who thought it meant other countries don't celebrate the Holiday. They do, but they call it something else: Paques in France, etc.

Finally, I'd like to point out that although Christmas IS based on a solar calendar, that does not make it any less Pagan. it was fixed at its current date during Roman times, because Christianity became the official religion of the empire at a time when Mithraism, a pagan religion, was the religion of the troops. In order to ease the conversion of the troops to Christianity, the Church decided to celebrate the birth of Christ when the troops were accustomed to celebrating the birth of Mithras, in December. Before that, no one had any idea when Christ was born, as the Bible gives no evidence of the date.

When Christmas arrived in Europe, many previously Pagan customs attached themselves to it (the decorating of trees, for example, which began in Germany and Austria and first came to the US with Pennsylvania Germans). So Christmas, too, is a typical Pagan festival with Christian trappings. So inconvenient for fundamentalists!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:41 PM

Well, I personally would like to decorate trees at Yule like my Odin-worshipping ancestors did, but Decorum (and the Law) Prevents it.

Darn shame, 'cause I've got a little list.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Christmas is about celebrating the event, not the date. The same as Easter, where the date moves around.

Dates are pretty arbitrary. When people get all excited about how it has to be one particular date rather than another, that is a kind of superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:24 PM

Thank you Nerd for clarifying my comments.

Yes, the German name is 'Ostern' which comes from the Germanic goddess Ostara/Eostare.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:32 PM

Pagan holidays and their Christian connections:

Samhain / Hallowe'en (All Hallow's Eve) a primarily Celtic holiday: All Saint's Day.

Winter Solstice / Yule / Saturnalia: Christmas

Imbolc / Brigid's Day (Celtic): Candlemas (and Groundhog's Day)

Spring Equinox / Ostara: Easter

Bealtaine (Celtic, once again) / Walpurgusnacht (Germanic): May Day

Midsummer / Summer Solstice / Litha: St. John the Baptist Day

Lammas / Lughnasadh (Celtic): Feast of St. Peter's Chains

Autumnal Equinox / Mabon: General harvest festivals

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 May 04 - 04:56 AM

And now that the Home Office are in the process of making Paganism an official Religion over here in the UK we will be allowed the same rights as our Christian and Muslim and the others as they do in the work place. I will be entitled to time off to observe my religious holidays!!....I will be printing off the press release and handing it to my boss!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:14 AM

I didn't know that catsPH!! What an enlightened thing to happen in the UK, considering all the trouble that was gone to eradicate Paganism (will this include the Druids as well?) for centuries.

I for one, will be posting blackcatter's list on my fridge!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:15 AM

That last post was from me, just not at my own computer...xx..(A Pagan at Heart) ;-D...e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:22 AM

It Paganism in general so it covers all the denominations of....

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:58 AM

That IS very enlightened of them catsPHiddle. I'm amazed. I can't picture anything like that happening here in Oz in the foreseeable future!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:36 AM

Interestingly, I heard a piece on National Public Radio yesterday that said that Wicca is becoming an "in" thing among teenage girls in come areas. They have major websites and exchange favorite 'spells' and herbal cures. etc...*smile*

It seems harmless enough to me...on the surface....but the thing that came through to me from listening to several interviews with the young practitioners is that they were explicitly doing it because it was more 'interesting'...One girl said that her parents were evangelical Christians, but that when she tried to practice Christianity, it was like "talking to air". She 'felt' that when she began talking to/praying to "the Goddess", etc., she felt connected to the Earth and life in general...etc...

It fascinates me that there was no claim for **TRUTH**, or documentation...they just spoke as if it (Wicca) was better metaphor for the feelings that young girls have...and more 'fun'. They got to do things-- dress up, prepare spells, trade secrets, cure problems and feel like they were really 'connected'.

I guess I see the attraction, but I am bemused at the mindset that allows them to 'plug in' whatever belief system most strikes their fancy. *wry smile*.....ah, well...perhaps that is a more honest way of doing it than the way many people adopt more traditional religions.

(trying to remember the websites names) I suppose a search would find them easily.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:57 AM

because pagan beliefs are so ancient, and natural, well, in some ways they're already inside us.

and examining attitudes, choosing values, is part growing up. otherwise we'd all be robots.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:18 AM

One girl said that her parents were evangelical Christians, but that when she tried to practice Christianity, it was like "talking to air". She 'felt' that when she began talking to/praying to "the Goddess", etc., she felt connected to the Earth and life in general...etc...

Actually I like very much what that girl said. It pretty much describes the way I felt when I discovered paganism.

I was brought up in the Methodist church, and I always felt like an outsider. As far as I was concerned, God was a disembodied entity "up there". It had no meaning for me. I never bought into it.

It was not until many years later that I was able to put words to what I felt, when I started reading about paganism. I was not a young teenager, either. But the feeling of connection and being part of everything was what made it feel "right" from the beginning.

It fascinates me that there was no claim for **TRUTH**, or documentation...

Since when has that been a prerequisite for any of the world's religions?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JennyO
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:24 AM

ah, well...perhaps that is a more honest way of doing it than the way many people adopt more traditional religions.

I think you are right there, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:24 PM

I also liked what that girl said, Bill.

Let's face it, there are trappings in the form of ceremonies, costumes, rites, you name it, in just about every religion. Would it mean more to this girl if she simply adopted what her parents believed rather than to admit being drawn elsewhere?

For me, there never seemed a place for the things I connected with, especially being a woman. I always felt left out of the equation in so many of the religions I explored.

I still don't need the ceremonies, and therefore will not call myself anything more than a Pagan at Heart...but for this girl, I applaud her independence of spirit.

And as they say...Blessed Be..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:39 PM

*coughs gently*

Well...I am LDS...but I live in the South. We consider Western Mormons a bit weird but mostly harmless :) Personally I don't see anything satanic about lighting a candle before telling a story. Granny sounds like she's a bit of a fundamentalist Mormon, poor thing.

No we don't use candles in our church on a regular basis and no...I don't have two or three moms living in a compound sorry to disappoint ya ;O)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 May 04 - 10:15 AM

To any mudcatters who really want to avoid any pagan celebrations here's a few of the things you should stay well away from:

all superstitions (walking under ladders, breaking mirrors, spilling salt etc);

all Christmas/midwinter festivities not involving praying or praising or giving thanks (such as eating and drinking a lot, giving presents, 'Christmas' trees, holly, ivy, yule logs, candles);

New Year first footing and drinking;

Easter eggs and bunnies;

harvest/thanksgiving meals;

autumn bonfires, whatever their 'reason';

anything at all to do with hallowe'en (unless it just involves praying).

And make sure that you go to work on 1st May.

I'm not trying to undermine anyone's religious beliefs. But you should realise that much of what we take for granted is a hangover from pagan times. Doing any of the above doesn't make you a pagan, and many of these things are treasured by us folkies not because they are pagan, but because they are 'traditional'.

I still remember somebody trying to ban 'Dungeons and Dragons' because it mentioned more than one god, and people leafleting against the aromatherpy shop where my girlfriend works because they thought it witchcraft.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: HuwG
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:46 PM

In the last national census in Britain, a number of people put "Jedi Knight" as their religion.

It was objected that "Jedi Knight" wasn't a recognised religion, and had no commonly agreed creed. The JK's promptly issued one:

<Obi-wan Kenobi> The Force, Luke, is like bodge tape. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the Universe together </Obi-wan Kenobi>

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:20 PM

LTS -

From 'way back at the top:

How about she uses a tambourine jingle to get their attention (works well at my daughters' school) rather than the candle?

- Bell - Book - Candle -

So you'd have the bell and the book instead of the book and the candle. Same problem (and perhaps just "confirming" the "witchcraft") for those obsessed with demons.

John

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Pogo, I've known LDS folks both Eastern and Western, and mostly they're a nice bunch. And I can deal with the missionaries -- I just tell them "No, thanks." (FWIW, I have a copy of the Book of Mormon in my desk at work so that I can surprise people -- I ripped it off from a motel in Utah. And yes, I've read it. I've read a lot of things.

Anyway, Granny didn't show up for the story hour on Thursday, so our storyteller didn't get a chance to talk with her. We'll just have to see what happens.

Back in Cincinnati, the saying was "Altitude is attitude" -- those who lived on the hills looked down their noses at those who resided on the hillsides or lower. There's a bit of that around here, too (and the hills are LOTS higher than in Ohio!), and Granny lives in one of those areas.

I'm not familiar with the heirarchy of the LDS church (except the very higher-ups, like the President and the Apostles), but there's a man who's above a Bishop working for the city -- if needed I'll bring him into the fray. I hope, though, that simply explaining the Granny what's going on will do it.

Here's something interesting, or at least I found it so. In the US, businesses cannot descriminate on the basis of religion and must make every effort, within the bounds of good business practice, to accomodate your religious beliefs. This includes Ba'hai, Judaism, Catholicism, Santeria, and others -- including Wicca.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Megan L
Date: 15 May 04 - 04:02 PM

"we have nothing to fear except fear itself." pity fear of fear is stranaling our world

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:49 PM

The U.S. has recognized Wicca and a number of other Pagan religions for quite a few years - The military will put Wicca on your dogtag if requested and required their base chaplains to work with Pagans, tohught most do so reluctantly, but Pagans don't need the chaplains to do much, anyhow, Paganism being pretty focused on the "do-it-yourself" plan of religion. Here, in Orlando, when we had the Naval Training Center (and thousands of "squids" coming through the doors every year, the local Wiccan/Pagan group (The Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida) worked with the the base chaplain to help those sailors who are Pagan to connect with the local Pagan community and the bookstores.

Know the old joke - what is a Pagan cathedral? A metaphysical bookstore.

Since a lot of employers are beginning to give employees flexible vacation/sick days, Pagans (and Jews, Muslims, etc.) are beginning to actually take their holidays off.

--------------

By the way - since I live in Florida which has weather/seasons in little relation to much of the northern hemisphere, I came up with names for the sabbats (solar holidays) and full moons. I drew on the concept that natural Florida is the only thing that my community has in common. There's no great pattern to the lists - Some things are tied to a particular time of year, but not all.

SOLAR FEASTS

Winter Solstice          - Feast of Citrus
1st cross-1/4 (Imbolc)   - Feast of the Herons
Spring Equinox          - Feast of Flowers
2nd cross-1/4 (Bealtane) - Feast of Life
Summer Solstice          - Feast of the Sun
3rd cross-1/4 (Lammas)   - Feast of Rain
Autumnal Equinox         - Feast of the Mosquitoes
4th cros-1/4 (Samhain)   - Feast of the Ancestors

MOONS (they are actually the 1st full Moon thru the 13th, but the general corresponding months help me visualize the general time of year).

January   - Manatee Moon
February - Egret Moon
March    - Scrub Pine Moon
April    - Lizard Moon
May       - Bear Moon
June      - Cypress Moon
July      - Storm Moon
August    - Gator Moon
September - Camphor Moon
October   - Pumpkin Moon
November - Wild Turkey Moon
December - Orange Moon
13th      - Shaman Moon

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Jack in the Green
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:12 AM

"And now that the Home Office are in the process of making Paganism an official Religion over here in the UK..."

This is thanks to the EU, not our government. If Tony Blair had his way we'd all be wearing puritan garb and be forced to listen to one of his approved sermons at the local church every Sunday. I can see it now - a painting on the domed ceiling of Saint Paul's depicting George Dubya as God, and Tone as Jesus sitting at his right hand, with Cherie as the Blessed Virgin...


I attended a pagan event last year in Croydon, and there was the obligatory protest by local Christians, but strangely there was a group of American fundamentalist Christians who had come over to the UK just to demonstrate at this event. They were very unpleasant to people waiting to enter the venue (including frightening some small children) and they took video footage of as many people as possible. Eventually a morris team who were appearing at the event came out and danced and played their instruments to drown them out. How desperate and fearful can some people be to fly thousands of miles just to make a nuisance of themselves in their ludicrous attempt to 'save our souls'?

As for the Mormons, there is one thing that scares me about them - the Osmonds. AARRGGHHHHHH!!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:46 AM

I attended a pagan event last year in Croydon, and there was the obligatory protest by local Christians, but strangely there was a group of American fundamentalist Christians who had come over to the UK just to demonstrate at this event. They were very unpleasant to people waiting to enter the venue (including frightening some small children) and they took video

They do have a way of sticking their nose in places where it doesn't belong.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:23 AM

Hmm. People who feel the need to pressure and bully people into believing as they do are I think insecure with their own religious beliefs to begin with. Those folks should not have done that, it was very rude and intrusive of them.

I met a girl once at a community college who was pagan. I listened to what she had to say and though I did not share her beliefs and told her so I still respected her right to believe as she saw fit. She seemed surprised at my attitude and told me that I was the first Christian who had not told her she was going to hell for what she believed :)

I try never to judge someone on what they believe or make assumptions about them. Mostly cause so many times people make all sorts of crazy assumptions about Mormons, but most of them are just plain funny and I'm not the kind to get easily offended. I'm like " Okay I will do all I can to be open-minded and understand why you believe as you do and I only ask that you do the same for me. " I grew up with a family bookshelf full of everything from the Koran to the story of Passover to anti-Mormon literature to a pamphlet on the Ba'haian faith so I consider myself pretty well-rounded.

Oh yeah thanks Rapaire for taking the time to read the Book of Mormon and LOL I promise not to send missionaries after you since you're not interested. Hope things work out with the granny. That's true a lot of times, the more prosperous folks are the more they tend to look down their noses at people which is a shame, it shouldn't be that way.

And the Osmonds scare the crap out of me too. O_O those big white teeth make me think they're gonna bite me.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:19 PM

Jack in the Green.....which Pagan event was that?? I was stewarding at the PF Conference in November last year and I only saw a couple of Christians protesting outside the venue...and we took them out a cup of tea because it was cold and raining. They thanked us for being so thoughtful!

I don't like people forcing their beliefs onto other people. Everytime I go to the market in Green Street on a Saturday there are group of people preaching and telling the masses that they have done wrong and they will be going to hell right next to the bus stop. I just ignore them. We don't have the JW's knocking on our door when they found out that we don't believe and they really couldn't convert us!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:39 PM

:D We had JW's visit us a bunch of times and leave pamphlets. Last time they came my mom told them she was LDS and offered them a book of Mormon. They never came back. I can't imagine why. ;O)

So are Wiccans and Pagans two different words for the same group of people? Or are they different classifications? And do you have a specific pantheon of gods that you worship or is it more of an individual preference?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:52 PM

A Wiccan follows one particular from of Witchcraft. Paganism is a term like Christianity...it has many denominations. All witches are Pagan but not all Pagans are Witches....

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 05:21 PM

So are Wiccans and Pagans two different words for the same group of people? Or are they different classifications? And do you have a specific pantheon of gods that you worship or is it more of an individual preference?

Wicca, Druidry, Aative American Spirituality, The Hawaiian's and their numerous assorted gods and goddesses,Santeria, Voodoo, Witchcraft, etc are all pagan faiths.

Now that I have probably made that as clear as mud. I will say that almost ALL Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan.

Most Wiccans live according to tge rede. I will quote an abbreciated form of the rede.

Bide the Wiccan law ye must;
in perfect love and perfect trust.
Eight words the Rede fulfill
"An; ye harm none; do what ye will"
What te send out comes back to thee;
so ever mind the rule of three
Practise this with mind and heart;
and merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 May 04 - 07:41 PM

It can also be argued (and beleived by me and most of my Pagan friends) that Pagan isn't really an umbrella term for a bunch of "denominations" or "sects," bust actually an umbrella term for a group of diverse religions that are different than the familiy of "Judeo-Christian" religions.

My practices as an Witch (ecclectic Wiccan), the practices of my friend who follows Asatru (Norse Paganism), my friends who practice REAL Native American Spirituality (still not called by any name by most Indians), my friends who practice Shinto (including the first non-ethnicly Japanese Shinto priest) all have some different rituals, traditions, terminology, songs/chants, ritual tools, philosophy, festivals/ceremonies and more. This is much more than the differences of most Christian denominations (at least the mainstream Protestant traditions).

Yes, the different Pagan religions have some fundamental ties - nature being one of the largest, but Christians have largely turned their back on living with the changes of the seasons and the ebb and flow of nature. Ther are other things like the concept of polytheism, but as the old joke goes, if you ask 10 Pagans what are their beliefs about the nature of deities, you'll get 13 answers.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Pogo
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:11 PM

Hm...

So Blackcatter what is your means of living with the changes of the seasons and the ebb and flow of nature then? Not being sarcastic or trying to attack your beliefs or anything :) I'm just curious. Does it relate to celebrating the equinoxes and soltisces and so on? Do you believe in organic gardening and vegetarianism and all that?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:33 PM

Hi Pogo! Not still in the Okefenokee, are you?

Well, I do celebrate the equinoxes and the solstices as well as "cross-quarter" days (days that fall between each solstice and equinox - which is a Celtic tradition). I also follow the lunar cycles - doing rituals on both full and dark moon nights. But that's just the ritual/ceremonial part of my life.

I do believe (and practice) organic gardening, but I'm not a vegetarian. You'll find that a lot of Pagans aren't vegetarians because living a more natural life (so to speak) doesn't mean one has to limit oneself to plant life. I eat very little meat - maybe less than 10 oz, a week but I also eat eggs and dairy (organic).

But basically, I'm aware of the changes of the seasons and the interaction of plants and animals, pay attention to astronomical movement (partly for astrological reasons, though I'm not really into Astrology - but mostly because the movements of the planets, etc, are interesting. I'm also very interested in rocks and minerals (for magical purposes, but also because they're so interesting.

The rituals I practice are primarily tied to nature and the change of seasons. This is quite unlike much of Christian, Jewish and Muslim observances. Most Pagans do not have holy days / holidays to commemorate an important person or event. True each of our major celebrations (Sabbats) have a connection with both goddesses and gods, but those deities are inherently tied to that time of the year, hence, calling on their energy during ritual. Some of the Sabbats have names tied to the gods - such as Lughnasadh (the god Lugh) and Breedmas or Bridget's Day, named for the Celtic Irish goddess Bridget (which the Catholic Church "elevated" to sainthood).

But hey - the days of the week in English are either Roman or Norse gods:

Sunday: the Sun's Day (most often felt to be represented by a god.)
Monday: the Moon's Day (most often felt to be represented by a goddess.)
Tuesday: Tyr's Day (Norse god)
Wednesday: Woden or Wotan's Day (Norse)
Thursday : Thor's Day (Norse)
Friday: Frigg's Day (Norse)
Saturday: Saturn's Day (Roman - but a deity embraces in Northern Europe during and after Roman expansion into Gaul and Britain.)

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:02 AM

Here's some more information if anyone is interested. If not - ignore it.

I wrote these descriptions a few years back. They're basically Wiccan in orientation. The Wiccan Wheel of the Year starts at dawn on the day after Hallowe'en/Samhain, so the first ritual is Yule. The descriptions illustrate the several levels of meaning in each of the Sabbats.

YULE: Longest night of the year, a celebration honoring the eventual return of the dominance of the Sun, birth of the Sun god, Yule log - traditionally a phallic representation of the dying power of the Oak King (Sun) - giving warmth in the cold, sometimes Yule is a time for a vigil waiting for the Sun to finally arise - the actual birth of the Sun - the births of most Sun Gods were celebrated at the Winter Solstice: Saturn, Wotan, Mithra, Jesus, the Christians adopted 12/25 in 273 C.E. Jesus was likely born in March or April.

IMBOLC: The recovery of the Goddess from giving birth, Brigid's Day, honoring the Celtic Goddess of Fire, Fire festival to encourage the Sun to hurry it's return, purification after the shut-in life of Winter and readying of the household for Spring, time for focusing on the family, the working for crafts - making & mending of tools needed the rest of the year, initiations into covens, Scandinavian festival includes women wearing crowns of lit candles, blessing of children who make it thru Winter - borrowed by Christianity in Christening, Candlemas is the time of the Purification of Mary - 40 days since the birth of Jesus as she was not "pure" enough to re-enter the temple.

OSTARA (festival of the Goddess Eostar): Spring is here! time for planting and the raising of newly born animals, Nature Fertility festival, Puberty rites, Easter is named after the Germanic Goddess Eostar - eggs & bunnies = fertility symbols, eggs were painted with fertility symbols and hidden in the newly-seeded fields to encourage growth or they were cast into fires as offerings to the goddess and god, the goddess Eostar's traditional escort was a rabbit, Ostara was the time for the resurrection of the Goddess from the underworld - hence a perfect time for the resurrection of Christ. While Christianity has tried to overcome the "Lunar focus" of pagan religions - the date of Easter, and hence much of the Ecclesiastical calendar, is set thru both the Solar & Lunar calendars - the First Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox.

BELTANE: May Day, or Lady Day, flower festival - flowers were gathered for the home and maypole, Roman festival of Florinalia - Flora - Goddess of Flowers, the fertility of the Goddess & rite of manhood of the God, Maypole - the symbolic union of the Goddess: the wreath, and the God: the pole - through union, the crops and animals are blessed, consummation of "courting" couples to see if the lady would "take" by Midsummer, best time of the year to communicate with the Fairy folk, time for protection spells as well as fertility.

LITHA/MIDSUMMER: Longest day of the year, Fire Festival to celebrate the full glory of the Earth Mother, the Goddess is pregnant, this is the time in the community for handfastings or weddings - if a couple was pregnant from Beltane they would get handfasted - if not they would wait until they did or separate, time for a break from tending the fields, everything is growing, plants animals and pregnant moms, big festival for working with community, magic includes love and healing - most powerful Solar day for magic.

LUGHNASADH (festival of the God Lugh) /LAMMAS (bread mass): First harvest, leafy greens, berries, give thanks for the fertility of the land, it's the feast of the Celtic Sun God Lugh - renowned for wisdom and knowledge, the God is losing his strength, the time to celebrate those moving past the raising of kids, the feast of Bread - the first grains are harvested and the rest of the growing year cna be forseen.

MABON (festival of the Goddess Mab): Second harvest, look back on the year, Goddess is entering her crone phase, God is ritually sacrificed - in order to let his son rule the next year as well as his blood to bring fertility to the land for the next year's crops, croning and eldering are done, time to begin to take stock for the coming of Winter, magic includes long-term love, strength and completion of large projects.

SAMHAIN (Summer's end): Celtic New Year, final harvest, The Goddess travels into the Underworld thus bringing "death" upon the world, Persephone myth, animals are slaughtered that may not make it through winter, Samhain Eve - the "veil" between our world and the realm of Spirit is at its thinnest, thus communication between the living and the dead is easier, Mexico - Day of the dead: visiting ancestors at graveyards, Europe: people traditionally carved gourds & placed them on their doorsteps to scare away unwanted spirits.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST,Jack in the Green
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:57 AM

"Jack in the Green.....which Pagan event was that??"

It was the Witchfest organised by the Children of Artimis. I did go to the Pagan Fed Conference as well.

I think the reason the American fundamentalist Christian group made the effort to turn up to Witchfest was the CoA advertised it as the worlds biggest gathering of witches and wiccans.

Incidentally - I'm neither a witch nor a wiccan, just a common or garden pagan who reveres nature and celebrates the changing seasons, and personally I don't believe in Gods and Goddesses. So really I'm an atheist pagan. Some people seem to have trouble getting their heads around that :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:13 PM

For all those interested myself and a group of friends are holding our Annual Fancy Dress Yule Ball on 20th November in London. All porfits are going towards the conservation of Ravens Wood near Tring. If you are interested PM me for more details or come and find me at The Beltane Bash (30th+31st May) at Conway Hall in London.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Nerd
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:34 PM

I also like what the Wiccan girls said above (to regress a bit). It is true that evangelical protestantism tends to be light on ritual and spectacle, which many people find a comforting part of religion. I think it is mature and honest of them to come out and say this, rather than "I just don't believe in that Jesus guy. For me, it's all about Artemis."

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:10 PM

Nerd - that is why we say that former Catholics make the best Pagans - they understand ritual.


Hey Jack. I describe myself as a Athiest Pagan as well. I consider what others call gods and goddesses as sort of a "Universal" energy. Energy that people can tap into to work magic in a similar way that we "tap" into the electrical grid to run our computers.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:12 AM

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Great info, Blackcatter, thanks!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:54 AM

GUEST 09:12 AM :

You have an incorrect quote. The original is " Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live." Check the Hebrew.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:03 PM

GUESTS are pre-litterate anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Jackie in the Green
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:35 PM

I was 'GUEST Jack in the Green', but decided to join as you seem a nice bunch.

"Hey Jack. I describe myself as a Athiest Pagan as well."

Nice to know there are two of us Blackcatter :-)

catsPHiddle - I'm going to the Beltain Bash too.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Blackcatter
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:19 PM

Welcome to the membership Jackie!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 18 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Jack....see you there....

You will see me with the Morrigan Giant...I'll be leading the drumming with Dave. You will also see me in the closing ritual on the Monday. I'll be playing the fiddle and the drum for it!

Come and say Hi!....if you can't find me ask someone for Khatt and they will let you know where I am!

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 May 04 - 06:02 PM

From way back....Tony Blair's a catholic!!!! He gets his orders from elsewhere!!!!

Wow weee what a thread! It's just like the discussions we have on our pagan circle on my work's intranet.

I always say, the best way to start an argument is to lock two pagans in a room.

Back to the original point. I was dragged up a catholic and a candle was always a sign of meditation. You were to be quiet and think. I think it's an excellent way to tell stories. Book at bedtime with a dash of mystery.

I'm a Druish pagan (Parker has put foward that he's "Vaguely Pagan") and I have absolutely no problems with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's all the churchy stuff what comes after that gives me the gip. But in my personal view, that's organised religion for you.

I shall be at the Beltaine Bash this year also - Cat, the fancy dress thing sounds great - and should I ever be granted leave to celebrate what I consider to be important days, I shall jolly well do so!!!   Huzzah!

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:37 AM

pagans.. watch the wicker man

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Wiccans and Pagans
From: s6k
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:38 AM

post number 100 i thank you!