BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 09 - 03:02 PM

When I read the following, I had to wonder if it was CarolC writing on Mudcat Cafe.

"The victorious powers [of the world wars] call themselves the conquerors of the world, while ignoring or down-treading the rights of other nations by the imposition of oppressive laws and international arrangements. Following World War Two, they resorted to making an entire nation homeless on the pretext of Jewish suffering. They sent migrants from Europe, the United States and other parts of the world in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine. In compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive, racist regime in Palestine. It is all the more regrettable that a number of Western governments and the United States have committed themselves to defending those racist perpetrators of genocide, whilst the awakened consciences and free-minded people of the world condemn aggression, brutality and the bombardment of civilians of Gaza. Today, the human community is facing a kind of racism which has tarnished the image of humanity. In the beginning of the third millennium, the word Zionism personifies racism, that falsely resorts to religion and abuses religious sentiments to hide hatred. Efforts must be made to put an end to the abuse by Zionists and their supporters of political and international means. Governments must be encouraged and supported in the fight aimed at eradicating this barbaric racism and moving towards reforming the current international mechanisms."

But no, it was just Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spewing hate yesterday at the Un Durban Review Conference in Geneva.

Thankfully, my country has a Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) and Opposition Leader (Michael Ignatieff) and the United States has a President (Barack Obama) who recognize this hatred for what it is and don't let the Mahmoud Ahmadinejads, or George Galloways, or CarolCs of this world make our policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 04:16 AM

"This definitely cannot be said of the racist hate mongers in this thread who think that only Hamas should be held responsible for their crimes against humanity, but the Israeli government should be supported in theirs."

In a word, horseshit. You clearly demonstrated time and time again that the racist here is you. Backing up now changes nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:01 AM

People who are trying to defend the indefensible have to resort to smear tactics, because that's all they have to work with.

On the subject of Ahmadinejad, I disagree with his Holocaust denial. And I condemn it. But everything else he said happens to be true. The Holocaust denial part of it is probably racist. The rest is not.

The people who are attempting to smear me because some of what I say coincides with some of what Ahmadinejad says are doing so because they have to try to divert attention away from their own racist and supremacist philosophies and actions. That's the only tactic available to them because they have absolutely no legitimate or moral ground to stand on.

Until such people call for Israel to be treated in the same way as Hamas (and all of the Palestinians), their racism and supremacism is obvious to anyone who does not share that racism and supremacism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

"I was struck by Dr. Gilbert's tone and manner. He spoke to the audience by walking up and down the aisle, looking at people directly and inviting them into his story. He was upfront about his politics and sympathies - against all killing of civilians, in solidarity with the oppressed (the Palestinians) and sympathetic to all who resist military occupation (be they Israeli or Palestinian). Occupation is the disease, said the doctor, and until it is ended, the patients (Palestinian and Israeli) will not achieve a healthy life.

Dr. Gilbert warned of the graphic nature of some of his photos, but explained that to understand the crisis in Gaza one must look at the realities. The most graphic, he explained were not necessarily the bloody stumps and ripped apart bodies (although I had a hard time looking at those), but the sorrowful, vacant look in some of the eyes of the children, the utter grief in the eyes of a mother, the look of submission in the eyes of an old man. One photo of a Palestinian farmer who lost a hand in an explosion from a missile, was upsetting, not because he lost his hand (which thankfully wasn't shown in the photo) but because of his look of utter loss. 'What will become of my life now,' said the farmer to Dr. Gilbert. 'All I ever wanted was to farm my land. I am not political, nor care about the different factions. I just wanted to provide for my family. How can I do that now?'

Dr. Gilbert wove facts and figures into his narratives about patients' lives and experiences during the three week assault. At one point in his presentation he stopped speaking and played a soundtrack he recorded of the night sounds of Gaza. For five minutes we in the audience listened quietly to the sound of the humming drones, distant explosions, rocket and machine gunfire. Imagine these sounds 24 hours a day, every day of the week, said Dr. Gilbert as he moved onto the next group of slides.

Photos of Shifa hospital, the epicenter of trauma treatment in the heart of Gaza City. Windows shattered and covered with paper. Cold hallways where relatives huddled outside operation rooms. Operating rooms that were used simultaneously for multiple operations so that supplies and electricity could be shared. A chest operation alongside a leg amputation on two patients. Doctors working on 3 hours of sleep a day. Female volunteer nurse helpers who showed up to lend a hand and stayed for weeks. All functioning with the constant sounds of sirens, shelling, explosions. Dr. Gilbert's stories began to merge into one overwhelming picture of unending horror. But also, his photographs conveyed an amazing story of Palestinian resilience in face of so much death and destruction.

Dr. Gilbert gave the audience a reprieve from his stories by playing a lullaby, sung by a Palestinian singer to her children. Again, the audience sat still, some with tears rolling down their cheeks, as the photos of Palestinians in Gaza continued on the screen.

When he finally finished speaking (he spoke for two hours), the audience clapped and a few asked questions. I felt as if the audience was shell shocked. As if we were for the first time understanding a bit of the horror that is life in Gaza. The images, the sounds, the stories all bringing to life what we had witnessed (and protested) from afar a few months ago. I watched as after the talk, person after person (most of them Arab) went up to Dr. Gilbert to shake his hand, to thank him for his service, to tell him how good it feels to hear the truth from an eyewitness. One Palestinian-American girl, perhaps eight years old, stood in front of me and told the doctor, 'You have given me hope, Dr. Gilbert. Because now I know we can make a difference. I don't have to just sit at home and cry and be sad about what is happening in my country. I can go there and help the people, be a doctor like you who saves lives.' Dr. Gilbert gave her a pin that had two flags - Norwegian and Palestinian flags intertwined - and told her he hopes to see her in a free Palestine some day."

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/chicago-audience-shell-shocked-by-doctors-presentation-of-gaza-under-attack.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:46 AM

After shooting one Palestinian demonstrator, Israeli soldiers call out, 'Do you want more gas?'

"This is a fuller video than the short, shocking video we posted last night depicting the killing of Bassem Ibrahim Abu Ramah yesterday at the weekly protest of the confiscatory wall in the West Bank village of Bil'in. The video shows plainly that the demonstrators were not violent. Here is a rough translation of the words on the video, supplied by an anonymous friend:

The demonstrators are telling the soldiers in Hebrew that there are children and Israelis present and they are asking them not to shoot. Bassem is shouting "listen, wait a minute, wait a minute" before he falls to the ground. The soldiers then fire another round of tear gas as the demonstrators yell that he is injured and needs an ambulance.

In the longer video, as [Mohammed] Khatib is arguing with the soldier, I can't make out all of it because they're talking over each other, but you can clearly hear the soldier say, "do you want more gas?" They can see someone is on the ground and bleeding and because they know it's a Palestinian, they don't care.

And the soldier is telling Khatib "Are you going to shut up?" as Khatib pleads with him to stop shooting. The Israeli who's next to Bassem right after the shooting is just saying, there's an injured man, bring an ambulance quickly. He asks Bassem where he was hit. The demonstrators also repeat throughout, this is a non-violent demonstration. The soldiers merely respond with teargas."


New York Times quotes Israeli military's false account of Bil'in killing despite video evidence


http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/30yearold-palestinian-resident-of-bilin-killed-in-weekly-nonviolent-protest-against-the-wall.html

The ISM notes that Abu Rahmeh is the 18th Palestinian killed by the Israel military while protesting the Wall. Here is a list. Although such a needless death is a tragedy at any age, please note how young some of those killed have been:

February 26th, 2004:
Muhammad Fadel Hashem Rian, age 25 and Zakaria Mahmoud 'Eid Salem, age 28
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

February 26th, 2004:
Abdal Rahman Abu 'Eid, age 17
Died of a heart attack after teargas projectiles were shot into his home during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

February 26th, 2004:
Muhammad Da'ud Saleh Badwan, age 21
Shot during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu. Muhammad died of his wounds on March 3rd 2004.

April 16th, 2004:
Hussein Mahmoud 'Awad 'Alian, age 17
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Betunya.

April 18th, 2004:
Diaa' A-Din 'Abd al-Karim Ibrahim Abu 'Eid, age 23
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Biddu.

April 18th, 2004:
Islam Hashem Rizik Zhahran, age 14
Shot during a demonstration against the wall in Deir Abu Mash�al. Islam died of his wounds April 28th.

February 15th, 2005:
'Alaa' Muhammad 'Abd a-Rahman Khalil, age 14
Shot dead while throwing stones at an Israeli vehicle driven by private security guards near the wall in Betunya.

May 4th, 2005:
Jamal Jaber Ibrahim 'Asi, age 15 and U'dai Mufid Mahmoud 'Asi, age 14
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Beit Liqya.

February 2nd, 2007:
Taha Muhammad Subhi al-Quljawi, age 16
Shot dead when he and two friends tried to cut the razor wire portion of the wall in the Qalandiya Refugee Camp. He was wounded in the thigh and died from loss of blood after remaining a long time in the field without being treated.

March 28th, 2007:
Muhammad Elias Mahmoud 'Aweideh, age 15
Shot dead during a demonstration against the wall in Um a-Sharayet - Samiramis.

March 2nd, 2008:
Mahmoud Muhammad Ahmad Masalmeh, age 15
Shot when trying to cut the razor wire portion of the wall in Beit Awwa.

July 29th, 2008:
Ahmed Husan Youssef Mousa, age 10
Killed while he and several friends tried to remove coils of razor wire from land belonging to the village.

July 30th, 2008:
Youssef Ahmed Younes Amirah, age 17
Shot in the head with rubber coated bullets during a demonstration against the wall in Ni'lin. Youssef died of his wounds August 4th 2008.

December 28th, 2009:
Arafat Khawaja, age 22
Shot in the back with live ammunition in Ni'lin during a demonstration against Israel�s assault on Gaza.

December 28th, 2009:
Mohammad Khawaja, age 20:
Shot in the head with live ammunition during a demonstration in Ni'lin against Israel's assault on Gaza. Mohammad died in the hospital on December 31st 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:10 PM

Blah, blah, blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:16 PM

Smears and taunts is all they've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:21 PM

I salute the Queen of Cut and Paste. If you can't beat 'em with brains, baffle them with bullshit.

When is the last time you disagreed with the Hamas Charter?
When is the last time you wrote to Hamas asking them to stop the rockets? Suicide bombings?
When is the last time you perceived Jews to be human?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:22 PM

"This definitely cannot be said of the racist hate mongers in this thread who think that only Hamas should be held responsible for their crimes against humanity, but the Israeli government should be supported in theirs."

When is the last time you realized that if you sling this kind of shit around that some of it would land back in your lap?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:29 PM

Hamas delegation in Egypt ahead of unity talks
3 days ago

EL-ARISH, Egypt (AFP) — A delegation of Hamas officials from Gaza arrived in Egypt through the Rafah border crossing on Sunday, a border official said, a week before Palestinian unity talks were to resume in Cairo.

The delegation was led by Salah Bardawil, one of the Islamist movement's leaders in the Gaza Strip.

Hamas and its secular rival Fatah, led by Palestinian Authority president Mahmud Abbas, have been bitterly divided after Hamas seized control of Gaza in a week of deadly factional fighting in June 2007.

Egyptian efforts to reconcile them have been unsuccessful so far because of disagreements on the composition and obligations of a Palestinian unity government.

Hamas and Fatah adjourned their last round of meetings in early April, with Fatah saying it wished to discuss new proposals by Egyptian mediators with the leadership.

The main stumbling block is the obligations of a unity government. Hamas, which wants to replace Israel with an Islamic Palestinian state, says it will not commit to existing agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The Middle East Quartet -- Russia, the United States, United Nations and European Union -- has made dealing with Hamas conditional on its recognition of Israel and commitment to past Palestinian-Israeli accords.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM

I will go get more cut and paste for you. Back soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThhunhZ6kEk

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:56 PM

Tell me about the peaceful people you support. Just tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

Let us know when you've written to Al Jazeera and complained about their coverage and the programs they air.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

Iranian Atomic Slip of Tongue...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ileZKRVI-2M

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 02:21 PM

OOOOOOOPS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:25 PM

I would like to pose a simple question, and I would like Peace, beardedbruce, Barry Finn, McGrath of Harlow, and CarolC to answer it. Please answer yes or no only.

Q: Is the life of an Israeli civilian worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian?

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM

Lives are lives. Period. And you know that, Michael--at least I hope you do.

Now, I have a question or two back to you.

What do you think of the Hamas Charter?

Have YOU ever written to Hamas protesting their violent actions? I have written to Israel protesting theirs.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 03:55 PM

Human lives are of equal value- as are the Fatah lives ended by Hamas, and the Darfur lives, and the Cambodians, and the Armenians.


How many Jews are there in the Arab nations?
How many Arabs in the Jewish nation?

Tell me again about genocide- where are the Jews that before 1948 lived in the West Bank???? ( ruled from 1948 to 1967 by Jordan- and tell me about the Palestinian state that was created... Oh, I forgot, there was none, since Jordan itself was supposed to be the Moslim (Arab) Palestinan Homeland portion of Mandate Palestine, as Israel was supposed to be the Jewish Homeland

Why were Jews forbidden to settle east of the Jordan, in the Transjordan 77% of the Mandate Palestine?

How many times have the Arabs, in part or whole, declared thay would destroy the Jews? Lets just look at 1948 and later...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 07:55 PM

Rights group: Hamas kills, tortures foes

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Hamas systematically killed and tortured its opponents, Human Rights Watch reported.

The watchdog reported this week that the terrorist group had killed 32 opponents and maimed dozens of others during and after its recent war with Israel in the Gaza Strip.

"The spate of attacks began during Israel's military operation, from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009, including the summary execution of 18 men in Gaza, most of them suspected collaborators with Israel," the report said. "It has continued in the three months since, with 14 more killings, at least four of them of people in detention."

Human Rights Watch rejected explanations from Hamas officials that such crimes were the exception and that some of those responsible faced charges.

"The systematic nature of many of the executions and attacks, and the fact that killings have continued after the Israeli offensive, undercut these assertions," the rights group said.

Israel launched a military operation in late December after Hamas broke a cease-fire with a massive intensification of rocket attacks on southern Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 09 - 08:17 PM



She condemns Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial but agrees with everything else he says. Since Ahmadinejad wasn't denying the Holocaust in the speech this week that I quoted, we must conclude that she agrees with everything else that Ahmadinejad has said.

I sure hope that she has never in her life had sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. If she has, she, in agreeing with Ahmadinejad, beleives she should be executed by a male member of her family. I hope there are no gay people in her family, because she believes, in agreeing with Ahmadinejad, that they should be put to death.

Let us hope the world prevents Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons so that Ahmadinejad cannot carry out his threats to wipe Israel, all Zionists and Jews off the face of the earth.

And let us, for God's sake, pray that she never comes into possession of a weapon of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:15 AM

I have never not disagreed with the Hamas charter. But Hamas is the only actor in this scenario (between the government of Israel and Hamas) who is being punished, despite the fact that Hamas' crimes against humanity pale in comparison to those of the government of Israel.

And clearly, the person who is accusing me of not seeing Jews as human beings is the one who doesn't see them as human beings, because that person is not willing to acknowledge the existence of the many who don't agree with that person's racist attitudes towards Palestinians, and who are working very hard and making tremendous sacrifices to help the Palestinians gain their independence. Like the ones who are responsible for many of the links that I've provided in this thread, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:18 AM

The life of an Israeli civilian is worth exactly the same as the life of a Palestinian civilian, and each of them is worth exactly the same as all other civilians everywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:19 AM

The idea that it is necessary for me to protest Al Jazeera is rather absurd. Which population is Al Jazeera holding under a brutal and racist military occupation, armed and funded by my tax dollars?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:28 AM

On the subject of Jews who fled "Arab" countries, this from an Iraqi (Arab) Jew...

"I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:M1nyWwzuqz8J:www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf+Naeim+Giladi&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 12:32 AM

South Africans discuss their trip to Palestine, and say the Israeli military occupation of Palestine is much, much worse than South African Apartheid

"Lunch is in a hotel in the city, and Madlala-Routledge speaks. "It is hard for me to describe what I am feeling. What I see here is worse than what we experienced. But I am encouraged to find that there are courageous people here. We want to support you in your struggle, by every possible means. There are quite a few Jews in our delegation, and we are very proud that they are the ones who brought us here. They are demonstrating their commitment to support you. In our country we were able to unite all the forces behind one struggle, and there were courageous whites, including Jews, who joined the struggle. I hope we will see more Israeli Jews joining your struggle."

She was deputy defense minister from 1999 to 2004; in 1987 she served time in prison. Later, I asked her in what ways the situation here is worse than apartheid. "The absolute control of people's lives, the lack of freedom of movement, the army presence everywhere, the total separation and the extensive destruction we saw."

Madlala-Routledge thinks that the struggle against the occupation is not succeeding here because of U.S. support for Israel - not the case with apartheid, which international sanctions helped destroy. Here, the racist ideology is also reinforced by religion, which was not the case in South Africa. "Talk about the 'promised land' and the 'chosen people' adds a religious dimension to racism which we did not have."

Equally harsh are the remarks of the editor-in-chief of the Sunday Times of South Africa, Mondli Makhanya, 38. "When you observe from afar you know that things are bad, but you do not know how bad. Nothing can prepare you for the evil we have seen here. In a certain sense, it is worse, worse, worse than everything we endured. The level of the apartheid, the racism and the brutality are worse than the worst period of apartheid.

"The apartheid regime viewed the blacks as inferior; I do not think the Israelis see the Palestinians as human beings at all. How can a human brain engineer this total separation, the separate roads, the checkpoints? What we went through was terrible, terrible, terrible - and yet there is no comparison. Here it is more terrible. We also knew that it would end one day; here there is no end in sight. The end of the tunnel is blacker than black."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 01:07 AM

Lots of links from and/or about Jews who are working very hard for Palestinians' freedom in this thread, too

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 03:29 AM

That is much too dramatic. Hamas is a governemnt organization. So is the Likud. You have never NOT? Spare me.

Either it's wrong or it's right. Tell me when you told Hamas/AlJazeera they are wrong. From that point we can talk. Until then, we have NO common ground. Capiche?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

I have said that I don't agree with Hamas on many occasions here in the Mudcat, and I have even condemned their killing of civilians many times. If someone who is only looking to smear me rather than actually read what I have to say can't be arsed to pay attention when I do that, that's their problem and says far more about them than about me. I have never written to Hamas (and I can't imagine how I would do that) and I have also never written to the government of Israel. I have, however, condemned the actions of both Hamas, as well as the government of Israel here in the Mudcat. However, writing to either of them will obviously have no effect whatever. This is because the people who need to be written to are the people in the US government who approve the funding of Israel's war machine and its colonialist settlements with US taxpayer dollars.

I will ask again, however, what population is Al Jazeera holding under a brutal and racist military occupation, and I will add, what population is Al Jazeera committing genocide against? I don't protest the racist Israeli propaganda organs, either. That's because they don't have any power over anyone, any more than Al Jazeera has.

But all of this is beside the point. The point is that Israel holds all the power, and its crimes against humanity are vastly more immense than those of Hamas. We are punishing, not only Hamas, but also all of the civilians in Gaza. We are not only not punishing the government (or any of the civilians) of Israel, we (me, my government, and my fellow US taxpayers) are supporting the government of Israel in what it is doing to the Palestinians.

So it is not an outside entity that I am protesting against. It is my own country, and its involvement in and support of Israel's genocide, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and military occupation of the Palestinians that I am protesting against. Not only do I have a right to do this, I have a responsibility to do it. Unlike me, the person repeatedly trying to smear me in this thread has the luxury of living in a country that is not directly responsible for what the government of Israel does, so that person can sit back with their popcorn and enjoy the show while thousands of Palestinian children get killed and/or maimed by the government of Israel.

The person who has been haranguing me in this thread wrote a letter to the government of Israel (I bet that made a big difference), and has spent the rest of their time trying to shut up people who are working to get the government of the US to stop supporting Israel's crimes against the Palestinians and against humanity. Nice work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 04:19 AM

And, to put it another way, there is no reason for me to protest US government support of Hamas, because it isn't getting any and there is no reason for me to protest Hamas not being held responsible for its killing of civilians, because it is already being punished for that.

When was the last time the racist who consistently follows me around using smear tactics on me wrote the members of the US government demanding that the government of Israel also be punished, and to demand that the US government stop supporting and arming it?

Never? That's what I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:14 PM

Almost forgot. On the subject of Ahmadinejad's speech (the original version of which could be said to contain Holocaust denial, and which was only changed at the last minute), I agree with all of the rest of what I have read so far (I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet). I agree with his characterizations of the imperial West, and what he has said about Israel's behavior.

On the subject of everything else he has ever said, I have not read what he has to say about whether or not he embraces the strict form of Islam that he has been characterized as embracing in a post above, so I am not in a position to form an opinion. I definitely am not in agreement with hardline beliefs about Islam, but its not my place to decide for the Iranians what sort of Islam they should practice, or whether or not to have a secular government. I support the moderates in that country, but I don't have a vote there. The Iranians, on the other hand, do have a vote there, in free and open elections. And they will decide.

However, Iran is not a danger to me in any way shape or form, not even if it gets nuclear weapons. The only fear I have about Iran is that the government of Israel will do something profoundly stupid and attack that country. An attack on Iran will not, according to most experts, prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon eventually, and attacking them will result in a hell of a lot of pain, suffering, and death.

If we want Iran to consider not arming itself with nuclear weapons, one thing that might help would be for the government of Israel to stop threatening it (which it has been doing for many years). Israel doesn't want there to be any major powers besides itself in the Middle East, and this agenda, along with the wars that Israel starts and the instability it creates in many countries in order to enforce this agenda, is the thing that causes me the most concern. However, I've read that Lieberman has announced that Iran is no longer the major threat to Israel, and he has shifted his focus (like Obama), to Afghanistan, and Pakistan. So my guess is that either Israel is going to fall in line behind Obama's program, or they're just pretending to do so and they're going to wage a surprise attack on Iran when nobody's paying much attention. I certainly hope the latter does not happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:17 PM

Of course, another way to persuade Iran to give up any nuclear weapon ambitions would be for Israel to get rid of its nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 07:20 PM

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel or all Zionists or Jews off the face of the earth.

That is a lie that is being promoted to give Israel an excuse to attack Iran first, but he never, never, never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:01 PM

The Iranians, on the other hand, do have a vote there, in free and open elections. And they will decide.

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel or all Zionists or Jews off the face of the earth.

That is a lie that is being promoted to give Israel an excuse to attack Iran first, but he never, never, never said that.

Does anyone think she actually believes the things she says. Does she really think Iran has "free and open elections"?

Does she actually believe Ahmadinejad has never threatened to wipe Israel and Jews off the map?

Ahmadinejad threatens Israel with annihilation

Another link

And another one.

We could go on and on posting hundreds of links to articles in reputable publications on the threats made by her hero Ahmadinejad.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, and Bracak Obama is wrong, and Hilary Clinton is wrong, and Stephen Harper is wrong, and Gordon Brown is wrong, and Tony Blair is wrong and CarolC is right.

Hell, even Ahmadinejad is wrong because he's repeated his threats many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:14 PM

That's not a threat. It's a prediction. One has to really torture and distort his words to make them mean that he is threatening Israel with annihilation.

What he is saying there, and what he has consistently said, is that Israel is rotting from the inside out, and eventually it will collapse of own weight just like the Soviet Union did. And I think he has a very good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:15 PM

I should clarify that. He is specifically referring to what he calls the "Zionist regime in Israel". And this is what he has consistently said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 10:49 PM

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"Jews shall expect to be once again scattered and wandering around the globe the day when this appendix is extracted from the region and the Muslim world", Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani warned, blaming on the United States and Britain the "creation of the fabricated entity" in the heart of Arab and Muslim world.

Observing that despite the fact that Israel is believed to have more than one hundred atomic warheads and the necessary technology to transport them to the very heart of Iran and elsewhere, but no Israeli official nor any newspaper have ever raised the slightest possibility of an atomic threat, "even in defence of their very existence", Mr. Salamatian wondered the reasons behind Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s declaration, which he said should be taken seriously "considering the rank of the man who pronounced it".

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:04 AM

That web page clearly is not a media organ of the Iranian government, or even the Iranian press. The website itself is located in France, according to the IP number.

So who made that page? When I google text from the page, I find a lot of anti-Iran, anti-Muslim hate sites, and the comments sections of blogs, but nothing else. I don't see any reason why we should accept that page as actually coming from, or containing any actual quotes from any members of the Iranian government.

I think it's probably a page that has been fabricated specifically for the purpose of it being used in precisely the manner it has been in the post above. To help spread hatred of Iranians, and to create a pretext and soften people in the West up for an attack on Iran, and not only that, one that was fabricated back in 2002 or before.

I found this in the Council on Foreign Relations website...


Iranian Expert Banuazizi: Rafsanjani Only Presidential Hopeful Who Can End U.S. Nuclear Standoff

Authors:         
Bernard Gwertzman, Consulting Editor
Ali Banuazizi

May 11, 2005

Ali Banuazizi, an expert on Iranian politics, says that of the various candidates for the next presidential election in Iran on June 17, only former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has a chance of ending the standoff with Washington over Iran�s nuclear program. Rafsanjani, he says, has held every position of authority in the Islamic Republic, and therefore �has the credibility, much like Nixon did vis-a-vis China, to cross that bridge.�

Rafsanjani, who is considered a pragmatic politician...

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8099


Here are some recent articles about Rafsanjani in some actual news sites...


In the Iranian press (lots of criticism, but no talk of a nuclear attack on Israel) -

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=180820


And elsewhere -

"'Using the language of threat, and unfriendly rhetoric will not help resolve the problems. Iran is truly ready to settle issues through negotiations without preconditions and within the framework of international law,' Rafsanjani told French ambassador Bernard Poletti in a meeting on Sunday."

http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jan/1168.html


Spreading lies is vicious, and also murderous, if people end up getting killed because of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

Qods Day Speech (Jerusalem Day)

Chairman of Expediency Council Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani

December 14, 2001, Friday

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

"If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:23 PM

Again, when I Google a quote from that text, the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM

Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Tehran, in Persian 1130 gmt 14 Dec 01
Translated by BBC Worldwide Monitoring

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:08 PM

And yet, when I google a quote from the text, the BBC does not come up, nor does any other legitimate news outlet.

Look, anyone can create a headline like that. That doesn't make it real.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 01:48 PM

CarolC--You are much more computer literate than I. You are able to find some of the most obscure information to cut and paste in support of your arguments. However, as you have not been able to find the source of Bobad's posts, please let me help you. It took me fewer than 10 minutes to find the comments cited.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2001/011214-text.html

It is in the third paragraph of the section headed, "US-British support for Israel."

Good reading.
JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 02:51 PM

There are none so blind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:18 PM

None so blind indeed. The Jews of Iran don't share the thirst for Iranian blood of the commentators in the above posts...


An American rabbi reports on her visits to the 'oldest ongoing Jewish community in the world:' Iran

Roger Cohen's recent editorial in the New York Times about Iranian Jews continues to reverberate. Below is a reflection by Rabbi Lynn Gottlieb (pictured below). Rabbi Gottlieb led a delegation to Iran last April and visited again in December. A Middle East Program Associate with the American Friends Service Committee in San Francisco, she will be visiting Iran again this August.

Rabbi-Lynn-Gottlieb Reading Roger Cohen's piece in the NY Times confirmed my own experience in Iran. I have had the pleasure of meeting the ancient community of Jews from Esfahan, Shiraz and Teheran on two separate occasions. I attended services in each of the cities, met with the official representatives of the community twice in Shiraz and Teheran and had several private conversations in hotel lobbies and private homes for hours on end, with youth and elders. I was also surprised at the depth of study of Jewish sources by Muslim scholars at Mofid University who quoted Maimonides, Rashi and Torah with ease and were anxious to learn more. As in any culture there is a diversity of attitudes. The condition of Jews is really no different than the condition of others who are in the 'reformist' camp. There is a need for interfaith civilian diplomacy so that those relationships can be explored and nurtured.

The Jewish community of Iran has been present in their society for nearly 3000 years. They object to the attitude by non Iranian western Jews that we want to save them, or educate them, or in any way interfere with their cultural and religious life. Before we make assumptions about what they need or who they are, it would be well to acknowledge that they are the oldest ongoing community of Jews in the world continuously associated with one place. They are not Jews of exile. They are deeply rooted in the land of Cyrus. They can visit the graves of Esther and Mordecai, Daniel and Habbakuk. They possess a Torah that is over 1200 years old. The Jews of Esfahan have their own language! The Jews of Iran are deeply proud of their own heritage, even though they, like other Iranians, may struggle with the limitations imposed by the Islamic Republic on freedom of expression.

The second delegation I led to Iran in December 2008 composed of 10 Jewish participants and four non-Jewish participants, included two rabbis, a rabbinic student, and six other members who identify as 'religious' Jews. During our visit to Yusef Abad, the largest of approximately 22 synagogues in Tehran, I was invited to speak from the bimah (for the second time). Like the first time, people clapped and shouted in appreciation for our visit. When I identified the members of our delegation and asked them to stand, and pointed out that Sarah Bassem was also studying to be a rabbi, the congregation cheered again. Many people came up to me and began asking me 'rabbinic' questions, regardless of my gender.

Obviously, there are limitations on life for non-Muslims. There are limitations on life for minorities in the States as well. Still, the Jewish community is extremely proud of its heritage, and views the Iranian American Jewish community as somewhat lost. They point to the increase in divorce and inter-marriage as an example of the impact of assimilation which they do not feel in Iran.

The idea of Israel attacking Iran is an anathema to the Jews of Iran. Certainly, it would endanger them. We should cease and desist all bellicose language that threatens military action toward Iran immediately. For those of us in the Jewish community who have had the pleasure to visit the Jews of Iran, we understand the preciousness of that community. Any actions taken by Israel that would put the Jews of Iran in danger is a travesty.

Finally, I look forward to my next visit which will occur this coming August. I pray that the gates will remain open, and I will have the profound pleasure of deepening my experience with this ancient and honorable community.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/02/a-rabbis-reflection-on-iran.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 03:21 PM

Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 04:00 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."

From which one is, I suppose, to infer they are making-up the whole translation of the speech? Are they more suspect in culling information than, say, CarolC, if someone desired to use her as a cite from a paste here at Mudcat? Are they less of a news outlet than, perhaps, the Huffington Post or Little green Footballs?

They sourced the the material--who gave the speech, when, why, and the origin of the translation--and they indicated the additions of sub-headings not in the original speech. I would think that is pretty open and aboveboard. And perhaps worth a read.

"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:01 PM

They could be passing it along from the people who did make it up. It's not like such things haven't happened many, many times in the history of the hasbara narrative. People with an interest in preventing the emergence of or eliminating the existence of any major powers in the Middle East besides Israel have been making up stuff like this for a very long time. Unless I see that speech from a source that doesn't have an obvious axe to grind on this subject, I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 05:02 PM

Hell, even the major news outlets, which have a very clear bias in favor of anything the government of Israel wants, aren't putting their names on that one. That tells me a lot.