BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

It won't happen - but the point is, why won't it happen? If the blockade was just about arms getting in to Hamas, there would be no reason for Israel to object to the US Navy bringing in aid, and no reason for the US government to take any notice of objections.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

Thanks Guest ifor, best laugh I've had all day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

So, ifor, what happened to the $300,000,000 Arafat was 'holding' for the Palestinians?

Naw, never mind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

OK CC let me simplify the questions some more.

Why do they have weapons but they do not have food?

It if were not for smuggling in weapons, why would food shipments be
hindered?

"they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter."

How can they simply inspect what comes in through Egypt? Especially through tunnels?

Why do you think Israel is in charge of inspecting or able to inspect things coming in through the Egyptian border?

"So far Egypt has kept the crossing largely shuttered, which has drawn vehement criticism in worldwide protests for not allowing in more relief supplies and doctors. Demonstrators across the Middle East have accused it of helping the Israelis crush Hamas by rendering aid passage through the borders difficult.

On Wednesday, doctors from different organizations clustered on the Egyptian side of the border in hopes of crossing over to Gaza. None received permission to enter. "We have been trying to get permissions to cross the border," says Ahmad Elwi, a surgeon and member of the Cairo-based Arab Medics Syndicate. "We came upon a call from Palestinian hospitals who asked for medics' help since they haven't been able to cope with the increasing number of the wounded."

In front of the border, trucks filled with medical supplies were lined up at the main gate. They waited for hours for Israel to stop its raid Wednesday during a temporary cease-fire to allow in humanitarian aid. When the gate opened, Egyptian police started searching each truck for about 10 minutes, making sure that only medical supplies were loaded, while getting rid of foodstuffs.

According to Khaled Atteya, the general coordinator of the Rafah crossing, foodstuffs can only be passed through the Kerem Shalom crossing, which is some 2-1/2 miles away.

"Today alone there was some 350 tons of foodstuffs crossed over the borders. This perfectly explains how the borders are open and ready to pass on aid," says Mr. Atteya.

In the meantime, the borders are closed for individuals and medics. "The situation does not allow us to send doctors now, since we can't guarantee their safety," says Atteya. The medics from the Arab Doctors Syndicate said they were aware of the security threats. "We presented a statement to the Egyptian government saying that we want to cross to Gaza on our own responsibility," says Mr. Elwi, one of 46 waiting medics.

The Arab Medics Union is headed by Abdul Moneim Abul Futtouh, a prominent Muslim Brotherhood member, Egypt's main opposition group. While the Brotherhood has been critical of the Egyptian government's policy toward Hamas, it's unknown whether the doctors' requests are being denied because of their affiliation with the Brotherhood.

Many doctors from international organizations have been waiting in Rafah for permission to cross into Gaza. None of them have been allowed except for two Norwegian medics. Negotiations with the Norwegian Embassy are ongoing to send a third medic on Thursday.

Caoimhe Butterly, an Irish activist who worked on sending aid boats from Cyprus to Gaza, has been working in Egypt to get permissions for medics.

"It is important to pressure for doctors to cross the borders to Gaza. It's a purely humanitarian issue," she says. On Tuesday, only one Norwegian doctor was allowed in Gaza by the Egyptian authorities. According to Ms. Butterly, Norway and Egypt have an agreement that allows for the passage of Norwegian doctors.

"Egypt has been saying it is reluctant to open the border area of fear of Palestinians infiltrating in Sinai. Sinai has been open before Palestinians for tens of years and they never thought of getting in," says Abdul Qadir Yassin, a Palestinian historian."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

CC You are right, there is food coming through the tunnels but it is no0t mainstream supplies.

Here is BHO's statement on the US and Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

Dear CC. This is how Israel wrecks their economy:

"The Israeli settlers of Gush Katif built greenhouses and experimented with new forms of agriculture. These greenhouses also provided employment for many hundred Gazan Palestinians. When Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in the Summer of 2005, these greenhouses were bought by the World Bank and given to the Palestinian people to jump-start their economy. Most of these greenhouses have now been looted or destroyed."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

Once again - the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses." - MGOH

Ah but Kevin the water was turned off after the greenhouses had been demolished for their scrap value - You know haow it goes, a responsible caring Government has to have rocket launchers and all that scrap metal just standing there was near as damn it perfect for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

They need more than 500 truckloads of food every day. It is not possible to bring anywhere near that much food through the tunnels, even when there are many tunnels.

The water was turned off even before the greenhouses were officially turned over to the Palestinians. And only about 75 percent of all of the greenhouses were actually turned over. The rest were dismantled and moved to Israel...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46011

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Actually its more complicated than that - though turning off the water caused the loss of the crops that were growing, and contributed to some initial looting, things got better for a while - here is a link to an article in the New York Times in November 2005 Gaza Gets Ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise

But Israel blocked any exports of the produce and very effectively wrecked the attempt to set up an export business to Europe which could have made an enormous difference for Gaza. This meant the greenhouses had no possibility of being run commercially - they couldn't have covered the costs of production.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:12 PM

"Gaza gets ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise" - then the stupid b*****d's elected Hamas and the rockets started flying.

Bone thick, totally lacking in imagination, or insane - just about sums that up. No bloody wonder produce and promise flew out the window!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

The first violence after Israel's pullout from Gaza was committed by Israel when it killed two people in Tulkarm camp on October 23rd. Gazans responded with rockets and a suicide bombing, and after that, both sides participated in attacks on the other - missiles, artillary shellings, and closure of the border by Israel, and rockets from Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

Tunnels, The lifeline for the Palestinians in Gaza. How else can you get basic human necessities like cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives snakes, lions, Kalashnikovs, rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza under the watchful eye of the evil Israelis?


"Do you have your passport?" one of the smugglers asked. Climbing out of the hole and emerging in an Egyptian border town in the dead of night was out of the question. Jail was the least I could expect if caught.

Canvas bags thumped down into the tunnel and Abu Mutassem and friends hauled them back under the heavily patrolled border into Gaza.

Only after he had climbed back up the rope and emerged from the "eye" did Abu Mutassem check his cargo: 70 short-barrelled Kalashnikov semi-automatic rifles, individually wrapped in plastic to keep out the dirt.

Each weapon would fetch $1,200 (£600) in Gaza. They had cost less than $200 from the desert Beduin community. Abu Mutassem and his men would share about $250 dollars for each gun. The profit margin on bullets was even higher. The big winner from their enterprise would be the tunnel owner or "snake head" who had put up about $50,000 to buy the house on the border.

This week Hamas closed down 35 of these tunnels. It was unclear whether this was because of a dispute with the "snake heads" or as part of the Islamic movement's commitments with Israel under a six-month ceasefire deal. Most, though, remain intact and the "military tunnels", used to bring rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza, will not be demolished.

The operators of the "commercial tunnels" plied by Abu Mutassem and his colleagues say that the market for small arms is drying up after a glut of weapons. Like any travelling salesmen, the smugglers vary their cargo to meet demand: sometimes drugs, often cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives (going rate $2,000 a trip) and, very occasionally, even African snakes or wild animals to stock a zoo.

The "snake head" typically needs only one successful crossing to turn his initial investment into profit. He is usually quick to snap up the four-wheel-drive vehicles, the phalanx of gun-toting bodyguards, the new villa and other trappings of the successful entrepreneur.

Those left underground are less fortunate. "It's the worst job in the world," said Abu Mutassem.

Three tunnellers have died in the past two weeks. In one case a tunnel collapsed after the Egyptians pumped in water. The digger was dragged out by his feet 24 hours later by a member of one of the extended tribal families that dominate the tunnel business. The tunnelling culture is so well established in Rafah that the high street barber - the Shaheeds' (Martyrs') Salon - has pictures of dead tunnellers on its walls and mirrors, alongside their shovels and other memorabilia.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:21 PM

So as we can see from that article, the tunnels are in no way adequate for bringing in the amount of supplies that are needed, just in terms of basic necessities for a population of more than 1.3 million. Relatively small numbers of people drag in small amounts of goods at great risk to themselves and they try to make some money on it, while more than 500 TRUCKLOADS per day are needed to keep the people of Gaza from slowly starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:21 PM

So weapons are desperately needed supplies?

"they try to make some money on it" $70,000 profit in one haul is trying to make some money at it?


As we see from the article above the Palestinians are more interested in obtaining weapons than food.

They have created their own situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:28 PM

There are more than 1.3 million Palestinians in Gaza. To say that "the" Palestinians are anything at all based on what a very small number of Palestinians do is not only incorrect, it's also racist. No matter what the smugglers do or did, there is/was no way to feed the people of Gaza using the tunnels. So what this means is that the government of Israel is deliberately starving the civilian population of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM

"the" Palestinians are the ones who voted for and have applauded all that that very small number of Palestinians have done. If they wanted peace, and here I do mean ALL Palestinians they could have it tomorrow. Since 1920 they have consistantly shown that they do not. And CarolC if you want to get into some sort of pissing contest as who did what first, then in Palestine the Arabs started first.

Want the border crossings open - STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL - It really is that bloody simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM

Did anybody see the exit from Davos of the Turkish PM yesterday.

General concensus seems to be that the debate should have been extended and that he should have been given time to address Shimon Peres's question regarding what the Prime Minister of Turkey would have done if confronted with a barrage of 8000+ rockets and mortar bombs fired into turkish territory from a neighbouring state.

As it was the Turkish PM was not given time to respond and he stormed out of the meeting and out of Davos vowing never to return. On arrival back in Turkey he was given a heroes reception.

I bet that after a good nights sleep he woke up and called the guy who was "chairing" the debate to thank him profusely for stepping in to prevent him (the Turkish PM) from making a complete and utter C**t of himself in front of the world and proving beyond doubt that he is a hypocrit of the first water.

Why do I say that?? Because after the Turkish PM had given his answer about diplomacy, concessions and negotiation. Shimon Peres would have asked him why that did not apply to Turkey's dealings with the Kurds and with the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq - Correct me if I am wrong but Turkey did bomb that area?? Turkey did send in troops and armour did they not??

Of course one rule for Muslims, another for Jews, how silly of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM

If anyone is trying to justify the punishment of an entire population of people because of whom they voted for, the exact same argument can be used to justify Hamas firing rockets into Israel. It's a slippery slope. The people of Israel have consistently voted for a government that has held the Palestinian people under military occupation for more than 40 years.

So using the argument that it's ok to wage war on a civilian population because of the way they vote, that would mean that it's ok for Hamas to target civilians in Israel.

There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing (and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide) of their population except to leave or lay down and die on their own. Because that is the goal, and it has always been the goal, and the government of Israel has no intention of stopping until the last Palestinian and Arab Israeli is gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM

Make decisions CarolC? If so then ALL have consequences. It is those consequences that should be taken into account before making the decision. That is simple common-sense and blindingly obvious.

You vote for a bunch of clowns to govern you, who couldn't care less whether you live or die, no sorry correction, who given the right circumstances actually prefer it if you die because its better PR for them. Who then start firing rockets and mortar bombs indiscriminately at their neighbours and historically your best trading partner upon whom you rely on for daily needs. Well CarolC you don't have to be "Master-Mind" to work out that the consequences of you voting the way you have will be disasterously detrimental to your future prosperity and well being.

As I commented before what are they? Bone thick?? Totally lacking in imagination?? Insane???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Nevertheless, that does not make what the government of Israel is doing any less of a war crime, or any less a violation of quite a few international laws as well as hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:02 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

The majority of Palestinians that voted for Hammas are responsible for the starvation.

Hammas is the culprit as shown in several official statements by Hamas which CC choses to ignore.


EU official: Hamas responsible for Gaza war
2009-01-2009

Special report: Palestine-Israel Conflicts

    GAZA, Jan. 26 (Xinhua) -- European Union (EU) Aid Commissioner Louis Michel held on Monday Islamic Hamas movement "overwhelmingly" responsible for the outcomes of the Israeli military offensive on Gaza.

    Michel, who toured Monday the badly damaged enclave of the Gaza Strip, told a news conference that Hamas "is overwhelmingly responsible for the war waged by Israel on the Gaza Strip."

    "Launching (homemade) rockets at civilians is a terrorist action, which has to be strongly denounced," Michel told the reporters as he toured Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza Strip.

    He added that as he checked out the destruction caused by the Israeli army during a 22-day military air and ground offensive, "we should also remind that in spite of all of this, Hamas is overwhelmingly responsible for the outcomes."

    It is the first senior EU official who slammed the Hamas movement, which considered the Israeli offensive as "a great victory for the Palestinians."

    "I mean here to say that Hamas is a terrorist movement and must be condemned. If we want the EU to encourage a political dialogue that achieves calm and progress, Hamas should accept two small conditions," said Michel.

    "Hamas has to recognize Israel's right of return and abandon the armed struggle which basically has terrorist dimensions," Michel added.

    However, Michel announced that the EU would donate an urgent aid of 60 million Euros for the Palestinians. He described the destruction occurred in Gaza "as horrible that is hard to be described."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

It's against international law and the Geneva convention to punish civilian populations for what their elected officials do, even if they are democratically elected. It's also a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Is it not against "international law and the Geneva convention to fire weapons into civilian populations with more civilian populations as cover?

And is it not actually required by legitimate governments to defend their populations against acts of war committed against their people?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

It is illegal to target civilians. And both sides have been doing it. Both sides are wrong, and both sides are committing war crimes and violating international law and the Geneva Conventions when they do it. However, the government of the US and some other countries are only sanctioning Hamas for targeting civilians, while they assist the government of Israel in targeting civilians.

The people who use Hamas' behavior to justify the government of Israel's violations of international law and the Geneva Conventions are no better than Hamas themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:51 PM

And by the way, under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation, while Israel, in occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is in violation of international law, the Geneva Convention, and hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

The Israelis had unilaterally removed their settlements from Gaza, so they "de-occupied" themselves of themselves, some time ago. Before the late unpleasantness I believe Gaza was, and is, under administration of Hamas, not Israelis at the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

"under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation,"

And fair play to them for doing so CarolC. Unfortunately for the people of Gaza and the West Bank when they attack Israeli Forces (which, come on let's face it they do very seldom) or Israeli civilians (Which they do a lot, probably on the premise that civilians don't fight back) the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.

Now ever since 1937 when the Jews in Palestine gave up trusting the British to protect them from Arab attack and formed their own self-defence organisation, the Jews and latterly the Israelis have been a damn sight better at defending themselves than the Arabs have been at attacking them. That remains the case to this day. The people of Gaza and the West Bank have got a very simple decision to make based upon their own track record, probability and the law of diminishing returns.

We can either continue with this pipe-dream about destroying the Jews and driving them into the sea then taking over their property and businesses, or we could adopt a more pragmatic stance and start getting on with our lives, forget about the Jews and use all this money being thrown at us from every "swinging-dick" of a government in the world for our own benefit.

Unfortunately they will probably continue with more of the same that has been going on for the last 60 years, i.e. losing 100 people for every Israeli killed because they simply just suck at what they are trying to do. Those who govern the Arabs of Palestine and those who proclaim themselves allies, friends and supporters of the Arabs of Palestine couldn't give a toss about the Arabs of Palestine - That being the case can you give me one good reason why the Israelis should give a toss??

Oh on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that?? Are they shipping "new" ones in to take the place of those who have fallen subject to all this ethnic cleansing and genocide that's been going on??

On United Nations definition and qualifications for Palestinian Arab "right of return" could you please quote precisely what the qualifications are with regard to place of birth, proof of identity, proof of residence. That might surprise some.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM

No, they still occupy Gaza by maintaining total control of Gaza's borders, shoreline, airspace, water, and access to other basic necessities. It's an occupation of the same sort as the Warsaw Ghetto was an occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

All of the above attempts to change the subject notwithstanding, Israel is in violation of international law, the Geneva Conventions, and hundreds of UN resolutions by continuing its occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. And in targeting the civilian population of Gaza, it is also guilty of war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

I think your tendency is to assume an overall argument, using the UN as some sort of standard, incorporating the following:

1) Israel's existence is illegal
2) Israel's self-defense is illegal
3) Israel's political and media attempts to explicate its actions are illegal

This overlooks that:
1) Israel was attacked on its 1948 independence by forces from all the nations around its UN sanctioned borders.
2) Israel's territory and borders are the result of wars of self-defense and as such are as legal as any other country's borders, including the United States.
3) Israel took in Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim lands in comparatively similar numbers to Arab refugees going the other way, only now Israel is expected to take them on as well. This is inherently unbalanced and unequal no matter who requires it, even if it is your interpretation of certain, but certainly not all, UN resolutions.
4) Every State is entitled to defensible borders, and in the case of such a miner State as Israel, this includes the Golan and the West Bank.


There are a couple of facts on the ground that are also being ignored.

1)To all intents and purposes Jordan constitutes an existing Palestinian State.

2) There was all sorts of opportunity for Arab countries to accept a peac with Israel at the 1967 borders. This was of course prior to May 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:25 PM

The above characterization of my stance is incorrect.

1) Israel's existence is not illegal

2) Israel's self-defense is legal if it follows international laws.

I have no idea what number three is supposed to mean.

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Israel's territory and borders are the internationally recognized borders (the pre-'67 borders). Israel has not officially annexed the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, so those areas are not within its borders.

Israel is not at this time being asked to take in the people who fled from the area that is within its internationally recognized borders. It is being asked to end the occupation of lands that are outside of its internationally recognized borders.

No state has a right to take land by force. That is against international law.

Jordan is the Hashemite Kingdom. It is not a Palestinian state.

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state within the pre-1967 borders. What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

I should rephrase this part...

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state in any of the areas that were allotted to them by the UN (The West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the areas that were taken from them by Israel in 1948). What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way.

They came, looked around, fought a bit and left in mid-1949. The Jordanians liked the Palestinian section so well (the West Bank as we call it now) that they 'held' it for Palestinians for 18 years...doing sweet nothing to help their Arab brothers build a country in the land that was supposed to be theirs. Likewise, Egypt in Gaza.

What a wonderful place Palestine might have become if those countries had taken Palestinians under their wings instead of under their boots.

So it really is relevant what other countries chose to do when they controlled the West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM

I won't argue that Jordan was not also as guilty of robbing the Palestinians of their state as Israel was up until 1967. But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN. Rather, it was Israel that was trying to take, with the help of Jordan, the land that was allocated to the Palestinians by the UN. And what other Arab countries have done or not done has no relevance whatever to the question of what the Palestinians have a right to.

I should also mention that it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions for any government to transfer any part of the civilian population of their country into any area that they occupy militarily, as Israel is doing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

"But nobody tried to take from Israell any of the land that had been allocated to it by the UN."

True, they didn't just want any of it (Israel, that is), they wanted all of it and NO Israel. No big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:53 PM

Nobody tried to take land from Israel that had been granted to it by the UN. Israel was trying to take all of the land that had been granted to both it, as well as the Palestinians. But nobody did anything whatever to take land that was allocated to Israel. So it is totally incorrect to say that it was Arabs who wanted all of it. The only people who tried to take all of it was Israel, and what they didn't succeed in taking then, they are still in the process of taking now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM

Right. And the assorted Arab 'freedom' fighters are jus' little angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM

As per the Geneva convention:

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Is feeding your children the blood of your enemies approved by the Geneva convention?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM

Even Hamas has agreed to not oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state using the pre-1967 (internationally recognized) borders if the Palestinian people agree to it. The majority of Palestinian have indicated that they would accept a Palestinian state under those terms.

There's nothing standing in the way of it except Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:03 AM

"In 1948 tourists from various Arab countries came to welcome Israel as the new kid on the block, and to assure the flourishing of Palestine. These tourists came from Jordan (30,000 of them), Iraq (about 21,000), Egypt (40,000), Syria ( about 12,000) and a few (under 4000) Lebanese. They came in their own tanks and armored vehicles, and airplanes...first class all the way."

Let me be clear here...In 1948 over 100,000 assorted Arab troops from at least 5 Arab countries, invaded Israel and Palestine to assist the Palestinians in destroying the nascent country, Israel, which had been approved by, and recognized by the United Nations.

You may put whatever spin you wish on that invasion, but it occurred, and all of your posturing and dissembling does not change that fact of history. When the dust had settled, Israel had gained some territory, and lost some territory, but the net effect was that it became more contiguous and a bit larger.

None of the Arab countries signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1949; Jordan and Egypt did not give the territory they had taken from the Palestinians in 1949 back to them to create the country of Palestine. And all of your posturing and dissembling doesn't change that fact of history.

Palestine only became an imperitve (other than to Palestinians) in the Arab world after Israel entered the West Bank during the '67 war, and Palestinians wreaked havoc in Jordan and Lebanon in the 1970s. Israel is now expected to make good the Arab betrayal of Palestine. The price for that is peace and recognition from Palestinians and their leaders.

If Palestinians still want a country, and they do, perhaps it is time to stop fighting and work peacefully toward that goal.

As I said a couple of days ago, it will have to be a two state solution, and Jews in the West Bank will of needs become minority citizens in Palestine, just as Arabs are minority citizens in Israel. And Jewish access to Jewish holy places must be guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 AM

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 AM

By the way, that's not spin. Almost no fighting occurred in areas that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. However, Israel had already, in the several months prior to its declaration of its independence, ethnically cleansed many thousands of Palestinians from land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN. Israel was already in the process of clearing out and securing for itself, land that had been allotted to the Palestinians by the UN even before it declared its independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:56 AM

For people who would like to get involved...

http://www.jstreet.org/

http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement.

J Street was founded to promote meaningful American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israel conflicts peacefully and diplomatically. We support a new direction for American policy in the Middle East and a broad public and policy debate about the U.S. role in the region.

J Street represents Americans, primarily but not exclusively Jewish, who support Israel and its desire for security as the Jewish homeland, as well as the right of the Palestinians to a sovereign state of their own - two states living side-by-side in peace and security. We believe ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the best interests of Israel, the United States, the Palestinians, and the region as a whole.

J Street supports diplomatic solutions over military ones, including in Iran; multilateral over unilateral approaches to conflict resolution; and dialogue over confrontation with a wide range of countries and actors when conflicts do arise. For more on our policy positions, click here.

J Street will advocate forcefully in the policy process, in Congress, in the media, and in the Jewish community to make sure public officials and community leaders clearly see the depth and breadth of support for our views on Middle East policy among voters and supporters in their states and districts. We seek to complement the work of existing organizations and individuals that share our agenda. In our lobbying and advocacy efforts, we will enlist individual supporters of other efforts as partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM

J-Street Facebook page

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM

and the british are worse than either side!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:42 AM

I thought some of you may like to see this blog, of a wonderful musician and pretty darn good person called Noa Bursie:

Noa's myspace page

From that link above, comes this:



***THE EVENING MUSE*** | DEAD SILENCE
Current mood: quiet
Category: Life

The lyrics say it all. The piece below says the rest.

WHY I SUPPORT ISRAEL January 14, 2009


I guess it would be because of the respect for life I was taught as a child - the honor of standing up for and standing by what you believe to be right - because integrity isn't something that can be bought with oil or votes - because I have a brain and an intellect that resists manipulation and the propaganda fed by a deep and pervasive hatred of Jews wherever they exist - most especially, in the State of Israel. I support Israel because I know beyond all doubt the western media, for the most part, is an entertainment industry and is as far from legitimate journalism as the ideals of justice and peace are from the ideology and doctrines of organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah.


As an African-American, and a Jew, and a woman, I have eyes and a memory. I can read. I have the ability to deduce and I have the spirit within me that informs me of a lie. All men deserve to live their lives in peace and raise their children to be free to choose all aspects of their existence without being dominated by religious doctrine, being intimidated by political agendas, or being limited or restricted because of their gender.


There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?


It saddens and disgusts me to see otherwise intelligent, caring, empathetic souls emotionally hijacked by the half-truths and prevarications of the western media coupled with the sheer propaganda of the Arab world with regard to the Israeli-Arab conflict. There were tens of thousands of acts of violent terrorism against Jews throughout the Arab Middle East before 1948 and the establishment of an independent State of Israel, before a single Arab "refugee". And something no one ever talks about - there were roughly a million Jews forcibly expelled from Arab nations in the years after Israel became a modern state.


And G-d forbid...lest we forget so very quickly...THE ARAB NATIONS OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA WERE THE ALLIES OF ADOLF HITLER AND THE NAZI IDEOLOGY!!!! So, are we supposed to conveniently "forget" this historical reality or should we assume a radical shift within the consciousness of Islamic Arab culture with regard to anti-Semitism? Sad that humanity has such a terminally short memory. Are the Islamic Arab nations who call for Israel's destruction NO LONGER motivated by the sentiments that wed them in an unholy marriage with Hitler's 'Final Solution'? Should we consider El Hajj Amin al Husseni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who called on Hitler to import his extermination of Jews to Palestine in the 1930s a bizzare aberration? Is the assertion by the Arab world that "Zionists" STOLE land from the Palestinians" truly the motive behind suicide bombings and other terrorists attacks from Madrid to London - NYC and Jerusalem ALL because of "stolen land"? Such loyalty and unity amongst brethren...such collective outrage...ironic that such devotion and solidarity from nations like Iraq or Egypt or Syria haven't improved the quality of life in the least for a single Palestinian over the past 60 plus years since Israel declared its independence. It would seem such a history of anti-Semitism in the Arab world would speak for itself. Sadly, voices from CNN, Fox News, The NY Times, and Al Jezzera drown out echoes from the past as well as the voice of reason.


Israel comprises an overall landmass approximately the size of New Jersey. Its length may be traveled in roughly eight hours and its breath in just over an hour from the Mediterranean to the Jordanian border. That a landmass so tiny could be the crucible for such withering, consuming hatred for a population that is outnumbered by not merely millions, but hundreds of millions is mind numbing. Consider the numbers - one uniquely Jewish national entity on a landmass that is like an island in a virtually endless expanse of sea compared to twenty-two exclusively Islamic Arab national entities where it is a capital crime for a Jew to step foot. Consider this reality then let's talk about justice and fairness, racism and apartheid. In this paradigm, the word, disproportionate is entirely applicable. The misuse of the word in Israel's war to destroy Hamas would be better applied to the condemnation of this single Jewish entity surrounded by twenty-two hostile, characteristically 'Judenrein' Islamic nations. That fact is what is appallingly "disproportionate".


Consider. Is there a single national entity whose policies and practices are above reproach and who possess the moral authority to criticize Israel, a nation that receives such a staggeringly disproportionate amount of criticism from the UN and countries FROM EVERY CORNER OF THE GLOBE? Are there humanitarian and human rights abuses within a single Islamic Arab nation being decried and voted on by the UN Security Council? Are we being inundated with images from Darfur of Islamic armies perpetrating atrocities against indigenous African peoples (some 400,000 killed, so far)? Clearly, we are not. Why not?


I support Israel because I abhor the double standard and the abject hatred thinly disguised as moral outrage currently being broadcast from around the world. I am appalled at the gloriously ignorant assertions being made by political analyists and apologists for terror and at the outpouring of anti-Semitism and attacks against Jews we are witnessing right now in Europe. This is NOT the RESULT of the Israeli war in Gaza, rather, it is a convenient excuse to vent deeply cherished, millenia old Arab and European Jew hatred. This is the true atrocity being perpetrated before our eyes. A simple and irrational hatred of Jews and their national identity by proxy is what we are witnessing in the reporting of this war.


I'm reminded of a fairly brief scene in Steven Spielberg's epic, Schindler's List. The Nazi's forced Jews from the ghettos to build more houses and this young Jewish woman, who was an engineer, told the commandant that the buildings were structurally unsound and would have to be torn down and rebuilt. This obviously intelligent, professional, skilled woman attempts to do the slave labor she has been given, and she attempts to do it with all the integrity she possesses - and the commandant orders her to be shot. But it was her response that resonates so with me. In a film replete with poignant, memorable scenes, this one stands out. I believe she tells him, "All you can do is kill me." That's power.


That is what I believe intimidates the world about the Jews – resilience, an indomitable collective spirit, perseverance in the face of insurmountable odds, the fierce and unapologetic individuality and identity. Although it is not, nor has it ever been, a "contest" - "Am Yisrael Chai" drowns out "Allahu Akbar" any day of the week both literally and as a metaphoric battle cry. An affirmation of life, even after life has ended, is more powerful than an assertion of domination and conquest. Therein are the roots that nourish the cancer of anti-Semitism in the Arab world. We rejected Mohammad and not only had the audacity to survive, we prospered. We were forcibly exiled from Arab lands and came back and prospered again – and this time in the ancestral Jewish homeland. This is the foundation upon which anti-Semitism is built, and this, moreso than any single rationale or perceived injustice, is why the world loves to hate the Jewish people. We just won't go away.


"TO SIN BY SILENCE WHEN THEY SHOULD PROTEST MAKES COWARDS OF MEN." - Abraham Lincoln DEAD SILENCE lyrics and music by noa bursie © 2005 dedicated to the memory of Tali Hatuel and her daughters, Hila 11, Hadar 9, Roni 7, and Merav 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tali_Hatuel why are you afraid and ashamed to be right don't apologize for your beliefs in the middle of a fight perhaps it's a curse – would you rather be wrong stand up for something, damn it be decisive and strong dogma's a noble beast with a killer's reputation lean far enough right or left there's neither honor nor condemnation there is a bottom line though – an absolute truth there really are good and bad guys and not every point is moot situational ethics echo back from the abyss what a testament to our times that we have come to this there is a definitive reckoning a definitive black and white a definitive, palpable darkness in the absence of light and we are fallen… good guys on busses – bad guys on planes a conspiracy of Jews is somehow always to blame dance the inferno in a hellish refrain my cause it is godly – my mission is plain achieve the goal by any means bloody baby hitmen often don't wear military green the correct kind of politic isn't always what is seems the venom of righteous souls wells up into a scream somehow we've fallen hollow men propagandize – the cautious put up fences the reprobate embezzle from their own then cry to the world defenseless dance the inferno in a hellish refrain camera captured image lies – bloodsmear of truth remains pervert the word 'victim' and history is revised fighting rebels hide behind children – camera crews film soldiers returning fire it belies everything that is decent and sane to justify the destruction of the people and the land how far we've fallen resistance is liberation…statehood a must…occupation is apartheid grandmothers, children, babies in strollers or a bus at pizzerias, hotels, discos, supermarkets, or the mall… our silence in the face of it makes cowards of us all identify with the shahid – legitimize atrocity while the righteous sue for peace - killers dictate policy apologists and assassins play with moral equivalence and we are told to simply call it a sad cycle of violence in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace just erase all that's human from the human race in a world spinning wildly at a feverish pace erase all that's human from the bloody human race and we are fallen…

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/02/israel-takes-leak-at-settlements.html