BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group"

Sounds like this fellow in this official Hamas video Published on Hamas website in February 2006:

Adham Ahmad Hujyla Abu Jandal
Prepared before Suicide attack on December 7, 2004

watch video

    "My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM

I'm not allowed to copy/paste from other people's posts in my posts, so I'll just have to answer the questions and hopefully it will not be too difficult to figure out which questions I am answering with which comment.

Why shouldn't they have weapons? Everyone has a right to defend him or herself. Israel has been bombing and shooting the Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank) since before Hamas even existed. There is no reason why the Palestinians should be the only ones who are entirely defenseless.

If Israel is going to destroy the tunnels, they have an obligation under international law to allow food to enter Gaza through other means. They are not doing this.

Yes, there was a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel. That's part of the reason Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel.

As I said before, they can only bring so much food into Gaza through the tunnels. They don't have to bring in all that much material in order to have enough weapons to do what they have been doing. But bringing enough food into Gaza to feed almost a million and a half people every day through the tunnels is not feasible.

Israel destroyed Gaza's economy by maintaining a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and coastline. People can't even fish any more because Israel won't allow fishing boats to go where the fish are.

The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel for more than a thousand years. Jordan has no beef with Israel because that country conspired with Israel to carve up the land that was supposed to go to the Palestinians and divide it with Israel. And this is what happened.

Israel can't wreck Jordan's economy because Jordan is a sovereign state with control of its own borders, unlike Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

I should correct this one...

"The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel and the Palestinian occupied areas for more than a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 AM

. . . and the Jews have been there for thousands more.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

No, that's not true. The Jews from that area are essentially the same people as the non-Jews from that area. They are the most closely related genetically to each other than to any other peoples in the world. The only real difference between the Jewish Palestinians (who now call themselves Israelis), and the Christian and Muslim (and secular) Palestinians, is that at some point in their families' history, some of them became Jews, some of them became Christians, and some of them became Muslims (and some became secular). But they all come from essentially the same genetic stock who have been in that area for thousands of years.

The European Jews in Israel, on the other hand, while their ancestors did live in that region centuries ago, they did live in other parts of the world for many centuries prior to returning to the Middle East. So while the indigenous Jewish Palestinians have an uninterrupted history in that region, the European Jews do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM

THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM
An excellent book about zionism is by the British, Jewish and socialist writer John Rose.

His "The Myths of Zionism " [Pluto Press 2004 ] does a good job in arguing that zionism is held together by a series of myths. A package of false notions which undermines its claims on the Jewish religion and Jewish history and its justification for the   aggressive political posturing in the land of Palestine.

The book is dedicated to the late Palestinian Jew, Tony Cliff [born in 1917 as Ygael Gluckstein ], who became a revolutionary socialist and a firm supporter of a free Palestine.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:55 AM

The reviews on the book's page in Amazon give some idea of what's in the book...

http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Zionism-John-Rose/dp/0745320554

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's the Gaza aid appeal video that the BBC refused to air...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2009/jan/26/dec-gaza-appeal

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

Arguing about the reasons this situation has come about is interesting enough. But the central point, regardless of those reasons, is that, if sufficient food is not allowed to get into a territory that cannot produce this food, and people within that territory are unable to leave, this will mean people dying in large numbers.

Maintaining a blockade that prevents food getting in, and prevents people getting out, would be an act of genocide. And that does at present appear to be the policy adopted by Israel, and colluded in by other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM

The UN is now trying to declare that the basic right to food is a "Human Right". Hummm

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

It has been noted on the 'Cat that Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. That is only partially true. There are Palestinians in Jordan, but Palestine militants, including Y. Arafat were expelled.

The Black September Movement was formed as a direct result of Arafat was expelled from Jordan, and Palestinians were expelled and/or left on their own following attacks by the Jordanian army. This was from sovereign Jordan proper, not from the West Bank area which Jordan no longer controlled

Black September Movement (noun)
A former Palestinian terrorist organization (now merged with Fatah Revolutionary Council) that assassinated the Prime Minister of Jordan and during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes.
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton Univerty.

From various Wikipedia articles:

"In the late 1960s, the Fatah faction of the PLO had set up a state within a state, inside Jordan. Increasing numbers of armed, uniformed Palestinians set up checkpoints, collected taxes, and refused to travel with Jordanian license plates on their cars. In the southern zone, bordering on Israel, they demanded and seized autonomous control, rejecting the king's authority in Jordan. The aligned Palestinian organizations carried out a series of deadly attacks against Israel, from Jordanian territory. Guerrilla raids against Israel, were mounted from bases in the West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. King Hussein who became increasingly devoted to the promotion of peace in the region, made various peaceful attempts to re-establish his authority in Jordan, attempting a seven-point agreement with the PLO in November of 1968, along with fostering peace between Israel and Egypt."

"The Jordanian army began plans to expel the Fedayeen and PLO. On the morning of September 16, [1970] Hussein declared martial law. On September 17, the military attack began. Patton tanks from the 60th armored brigade, accompanied by armored vehicles, entered Amman from all sides, and attacked the headquarters of the Palestinian organizations."

"The number of casualties in what resembled a civil war is estimated at tens of thousands. Though Palestinian civillians[sic] were killed in far greater numbers, both sides were involved in the intentional targeting of civilians. It was a turning point for Jordanian identity, as the kingdom embarked on the program of "Jordanization" of the society that relegated Palestinians to "outsider" status."

"Toward the end of March, after a Palestinian arms warehouse was discovered in Irbid, [a city in northern Jordan cotrolled by Palestinians] the Jordanian army placed a curfew on the city, arrested some of the Palestinian activists, and expelled others. The takeover of Irbid was completed at the beginning of April. Afterward, many senior members of the Palestinian organizations, who were aware of their weakness, began to withdraw from Amman as well."

Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel. The large influx of Palestinians from Jordan after "Black September" caused an imbalance within Lebanese society and democratic institutions.[1][2] By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in Southern Lebanon. The PLO became a powerful force and played an important role in the Lebanese Civil War."

"Arafat set about building a "state-within-the-state" [As they had tried to do in Jordan, see above] in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy."

"Ma'an (Arabic) reports that aArafat[sic] set about building a "state-within-the-state" in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy. A series of articles being authored by longtime Arafat aide Marwan Kanafani in Egypt's Al Ahram will say that it was Yasir Arafat himself who created the Black September organization in 1970."

There may be some redundancy in the above, but I don't want anybody to think I am manipulating meaning by not using complete sentences, or merging sentences, thereby putting my own spin on it. My comments for clarification are in [].

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

The Website SOCIALIST UNITY carries an article with photographs about some 15 military and political Israeli leaders ,at varying levels of seniority, who have been named as being involved in war crimes in Gaza.
The article includes short biographies of these leaders .Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

Maybe it's an insignificant point but "during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes" probably misstates what actually happened. There was a badly botched "rescue attempt" by the German police in which the hostage athletes were killed, at least some of them by the police fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM

If true, still a distinction without a difference, McGrath. The operation was instigated by Fatah (Black September)...the guilt isa theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

Also, are you implying that sometimes the innocent are killed along with the guilty by a third party? Seems to me that's what happened recently in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Some Palestinians fled to Jordan during the Nakba, but they don't come from there originally, which, I think, is what was being suggested when the question was asked about why they were kicked out of that country. There is a persistent propaganda myth still circulating that the Palestinians come originally from Jordan, and only arrived in Israel because they were kicked out of Jordan. That is what I was addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

If that is what you meant, you are still historically wrong. Until 1921 what is now Jordan was a part of Palestine, which was given to the Hashimis as Trans-Jordan.

The Hashimites, who came from outside Jordan, became rulers of a Palestinian peoples. So it is not entirely incorrect to think of Jordan as a Palestinian homeland. The difference, of course, is that those Palestinians who lived in Trans-Jordan in 1921 became Jordanian and their brothers, sisters and cousins remained in the remnant of Palestine.

The majority of those kicked out of Jordan in the '70s were those who crossed over from the West Bank when it was under Jordanian control.

If Jordan, an overwhelmingly Palestine population can exist, so too should an Israel be allowed to exist as an overwhelmingly Jewish country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

The area that is now Jordan was very sparsely populated prior to the establishment of the Hashemite kingdom there. The Palestinian people are an indigenous people in the area that is now Israel and the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Palestinians in Jordan don't maintain their majority through ethnic cleansing of the people in Jordan who are not of Palestinian origin. In order for Israel to maintain a permanent Jewish majority, it is necessary for it to practice ethnic cleansing and possibly even genocide. That is the difference. Maintaining a Jewish majority through ethnic cleansing and/or genocide is not sustainable, and leads to a permanent state of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

60 Minutes on the death of the two state solution (thank you 60 minutes!)...

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

I have to say, though, from watching that video, it looks to me like Tzipi Livni is trying to get Netanyahu elected instead of herself. Instead of saying she would forcibly remove the settlers from the West Bank, she should be saying that they can stay there if they want, but if they do, they will be living there as Palestinians under the authority of the Palestinian state, and that the settlements would no longer be subsidized by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Sparsely populated or not Trans-Jordanians were Palestinian at the formation of that country. The outsiders were the rulers. The reason for internal peace since the '70s is that Jordan is an ethnically homogeneous country, and religiously nearly so.

"..a US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan states that: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish..." This is because Jews are denied 'citizenship' in Jordan, as opposed to Arabs, Muslim and Christan, who remained in Israel.

As to your other comments in your last post to me, you may believe what you will, and define as you will, but I through with playing that game.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Linguistic gymnastics aside, the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

By the way, I think the only game that is being played is the one in which people try to pretend that Israeli Jews can maintain a permanent majority without practicing ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

They are?! I thought Israeli Arabs were those who stayed inside Israel during and after the 1948 war and are Israel citizens. Those in the West Bank, etc. consider themselves, and are "Palestinian." Those in Jordan at that time were already Jordanian, and some who entered Jordan after 1948 have been given Jordanian citizenship...which is more than any Jew has there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Yes, that is correct. I forgot to specify Israel in my statement. I will rephrase...

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Well now, at least, your statement is 25% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct."
Yes! Finally! That is not what you wrote earlier.
And, to my knowledge, nobody here has denied it.

It's like pulling teeth. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

I'm sure this game of trying to trip me up is very amusing, but my point was that none of the Palestinians and Arab Israelis in the areas I listed are indigenous to what is now Jordan, which was the entire point that I was trying to make. And yes, many people do try to promote the idea that they came originally from Jordan, as I think the person whose points I was responding to may have been doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

Following today's clashes on the Gaza border the odious Israeli foreign minister Livni,regarded by many as a war criminal, has declared that Israel"will no longer show any restraint" .

If the events of the past few weeks amount to some form of restraint what with the mass killing of civilians in houses, the slaughter of hundreds of children and the maiming of thousands then Livni who comes from a family of zionist Stern gang terrorists is giving warning of more carnage to be delivered by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Point of correction - Tzipi Livni's parents were active not in the Stern Gang but in the larger group Irgun - which was also classified as a terrorist organisation by the British and the American governments at the time, in the light of actions such as the blowing up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 people were killed. (Beats anything Hamas has ever managed to do in that line...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

I am not trying to trip you up, CarolC, I am trying to get you to say what you mean, and to be as historically accurate as possible. I know that doesn't count for much to most folks in this era of 24/7 news dished up in 30 second sound bites, and pictures with no context. But it matters to some of us.

While I know I'll never change your position, what you believe, you believe, I will comment on inaccuracy when I see it.

BTW, who promotes the idea that Palestinians 'come' from Jordan? What I read is that Jordan was carved off of Palestine...which is why some think that Jordan could be the Palestinian homeland. I know that may not seem different from what you wrote, but it is truly 180 degrees different.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:51 PM

The Palestine Mandate which included what is now Jordan was a completely artificial creation set up in the horsetrading around the Treaty of Versailles. To talk of it as if it had some kind of historical unity is absurd.

The area to the East of the Jordan had never been linked administatively with the area to the West, which under the Turks was made up in 1914 of three separate "sanjaks". See the map on this site - a Zionist site, as it happens, to avoid arguments about this being an anti-Zionist distortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Someone in this thread asked me why the Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. They did not ask me why some Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. When someone else in this thread used the term "the Jews", that person was severely castigated by several people because they maintain that saying "the" in front of "Jews" means that the person saying it is referring to all Jews.

When someone says "the" in front of "Palestinians", that person's words indicate that the entire group is included in the comment.

However, I have had interactions with many, many people who believe that the Palestinians originally came from Jordan and emigrated to what is now Israel and the Palestinian areas because they were kicked out of Jordan. There are many, many people who believe that there were no Palestinians in what is now Israel and the occupied Palestinian areas before the European Jews showed up.

If one is really concerned with historical accuracy, one would make an effort to correct these beliefs when they are encountered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

One at a time CC, You are prone to avoiding questions by asking another question:

"Why shouldn't they have weapons?"

The question was why would they buy weapons instead of food? Why would they spend food money on weapons and them claim they are starving?

Why do they have to smuggle food in through tunnels? Is food illegal or something?

The answer to your smoke screen question is yes, they can have weapons as long as they use them for defense and if they do not fire missiles into another country to deliberately cause themselves to be invaded like they have engineered. Then they whine a cry and suck snot to gain sympathy from idiots to make the Jews look bad.

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

"When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza"

More evidence that Palestinians want to fight, they do not want peace.

The fighting continued into 1971, however, when King Hussein finally struck a decisive blow against the Palestinians, driving them out of their remaining bases and expelling them from the country. The Palestinian extremist group Black September was named after the month in which the Palestinians were driven out of Jordan.

Yes, they were driven out of Jordan, Jordan did make peace with Israel and Jordan is a trading partner with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

Wrong both times, I'm afraid.

The blockade covers far more than weapons, and has reduced food supplies to a trickle, a level that is totally inadequate to meet the needs of the population of Gaza.

And arms and stuff that can be used to make arms have never been more than a relatively small part of what has been brought in through the tunnels.

>I>Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

They don't have weapons instead of food. Even if they didn't bring in any weapons at all, they still wouldn't be able to get anywhere near enough food. Someone else has answered the rest of it very well, so I don't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

One thing that it seems to me ought to be blindingly obvious is that if they were only interested in keeping out weapons and not basic necessities, they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter. They are not doing this. They are preventing anything and everything from entering.

So clearly, the blockade has nothing whatever to do with weapons, and is a form of collective punishment against the people in Gaza. Which is a crime under international law, by the way, and is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

If it were just about weapons another option would be to allow stuff to come in by sea on ships. If the Israeli authorities were worried they could even specify that, for example, only ships of the Royal Navy or the US Navy would be allowed in.

And if the Israel wasn't happy with that, so what. After asll, the Berlin Blockade wasn't broken with the approval and cooperation of the Russians and East Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

Israel does not control the border with Egypt. Hamas's inability or reluctance to moderate and control militant factions caused Egypt to close that border.

Israel has always allowed in humanitarian aid, it even allowed set aside three hours per day in the middle of their last incursion into Gaza so that these supplies could be delivered - And we saw what happened Hamas gunmen set up road blocks and stole the provisions as they were on their way to the storage depots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

To Teribus
Frankly you are talking through your hat! You sound like some kind of Israeli propogandaist.Keep on in that vein and you'll be telling us next that the bombing of Gaza was for the good of its reidents.C'mon man!
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Egyptian government does what its told.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

Well prove me wrong - Did the IDF set aside a fixed three hour period each day in order that humanitarian could be brought into Gaza? The answer to that question is an unqualified YES or NO.

And the world and it's dog knows that the answer to that question is YES.

Kevin Oh Wise One, who tells the Egyptian Government to do what??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

Actually, Israel does control the border with Egypt.

"Following the disengagement, Israel withdrew its forces from the southern border between Gaza and Egypt. At first, many thought that this brought an end to Israel's control of the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, known as Rafah Crossing, which is now the only border crossing in the Gaza Strip that is not subject direct Israeli control. However, as time passed, it became clear that Israel retained the power to open and close the crossing at will, and since Hamas's takeover of the Palestinian security forces in Gaza, in June 2007, it has been almost permanently closed"

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp

The people who are trying to bring humanitarian aid into Gaza at this time are saying that Israel is allowing a very small trickle to enter, but that most of the supplies are piling up at the wall outside of Gaza, and that the amount that is getting in is not anywhere near enough to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/090128/2009012804.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

Now if some powerful country with a strong navy were to decide to bring in humanitarian aid by sea, and defy the blockade, who could object to that? And who could vote against a UN Security Council vote to authorise that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Dream on...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:57 AM

Write and suggest that to Ahmadinejad Kevin, that would kill two birds with one stone, Hamas would get the supplies that they themselves have prioritised ever since 2005 and they could cut out the middlemen thereby reducing the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:05 AM

PS Kevin:

The last shipment that was supposed to come into Gaza direct was back in Tosser Arafat's glory days - The shipment was £15 million worth of arms from Iran - The Israeli Mossad and IDF intercepted that particular one at sea and prevented Arafat from getting hold of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

To Teribus
Arafat was no "tosser" as you say. That is a meaningless insult to someone who in his own way tried to protect the Palestinian people from the Israeli oppressor for most of his adult life.
If we are going to toss sdjectives around...how about
the butcher Sharon
the war criminal Livni
and
the child killer Olmert
ifor