BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 AM

We didn't call it off but the UN just voted 14 out of 15 for the Israeli's to pull out. We (the US) abstained from voting but Condie did say that we backed the resolution & the spirit of it (Then why didn't we vote for it???). Hopefully the aid can now start flowing in. It's a shmefull act for the blanket bombing of so many innocent. Oh, now I understand why we didn't vote for such aggression to stop. When a nation bombs the innocent citizens of another nation under the guise of defeating terrorism it is actually a terrorist action they are taking on themselves. Such is the shape of the world we live in, shame. These actions were backed by hell. Thank God some one has but a hold on them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower."

An incorrect assessment, as any person with any knowledge of what "mass bombing" means.


ifor, there ARE valid arguements you might use ( though I may differ as to their validity). Why do you feel the need to make blatent false claims (lies) to "win" your point? Is your arguement so weak that only lies can possibly support it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM

"Fox News and Al Jazeera "

Actually, I do- despite claims by people who don't know me well enough to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:28 AM

from AlJazeera reports BEFORE the Israeli attacks...

Hard to argue that Israel broke the that truce, I guess.

.....................................................
UPDATED ON:
Sunday, December 21, 2008
15:24 Mecca time, 12:24 GMT
   News Middle East




Gaza rockets hit southern Israel


The Islamic Jihad group has claimed
responsibility for the attack [AFP]

Eight rockets and mortars fired from Gaza have hit towns in southern Israel, with one house being severely damaged in Sderot, Israeli rescue service workers have said.

No one was injured in the attack, which began at about 7am (0500GMT) on Sunday, two days after the official end of a truce between Israel and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

A migrant worker was wounded by shrapnel in a separate rocket attack on a Kibbutz, an Israeli farming co-operative.

The Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Air raid launched

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid.

Those respective attacks came a day after a six-month-old ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ended.

Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire, but it has said it will begin a dedicated military operation in Gaza if rocket fire barrages continue.

"The scenarios are clear, the plans are clear, the determination is clear, and so are the ramifications of each of the steps. A responsible government is not happy to go to war, but does not evade it," Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said in his weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

oh.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122172946123995.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Washington Post


Endgame in Gaza

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A17

Israel's leaders have purposely obscured their war aims in Gaza. But there are only two possible endgames: (A) a Lebanon-like cessation of hostilities to be supervised by international observers, or (B) the disintegration of Hamas rule in Gaza.

Hard Lesson for Israel

Under tremendous international pressure -- including from an increasingly wobbly U.S. State Department -- the government of Ehud Olmert has begun hinting that it is receptive to a French-Egyptian cease-fire plan, essentially acquiescing to Endgame A.

That would be a terrible mistake.

It would fail on its own terms. It would have the same elements as the phony peace in Lebanon: an international force that abjures any meaningful use of force, an arms embargo under which arms will most assuredly flood in, and a cessation of hostilities until the terrorist side is rearmed and ready to initiate the next round of hostilities.

The U.N.-mandated disarmament of Hezbollah in Lebanon is a well-known farce. Not only have foreign forces not stopped Hezbollah's massive rearmament, their very presence makes it impossible for Israel to take any preventive military action, lest it accidentally hit a blue-helmeted Belgian crossing guard.

The "international community" is now pushing very hard for a Gaza replay of that charade. Does anyone imagine that international monitors will risk their lives to prevent weapons smuggling? To arrest terrorists? To engage in shootouts with rocket-launching teams attacking Israeli civilians across the Gaza border?

Of course not. Weapons will continue to be smuggled. Deeper and more secure fortifications will be built for the next round. Mosques, schools and hospitals will again be used for weapons storage and terrorist safe havens. Do you think French "peacekeepers" are going to raid them?

(more)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802993.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM

"A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It did so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men."

Quote from a lengthy article by "Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (who) served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy" : How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe Worth reading and pondering.

But it doesn't make too much sense to concentrate too much on the reasons why things have happened to the exclusion of the more significant question of what are their likely consequences. Whoever had the greater blame in the breakdown of that imperfect ceasefire the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides.

There's an often-quoted rhyme that sums up what I mean there:

Here lies the body of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he walked along.
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM

"the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides."

That I will agree with you on.


Please note 'BOTH'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Oh Dear. Just catching up on news after switching off TV / computer for most of the holiday season. What a horrible mess.

My tuppence worth -

BBruce, I want to make one or two observations on your cut n' paste from Al Jazeera.

1) you will note that it was Islamic jihad and not Hamas, who broke the truce. Everyone here keeps rattling on about Hamas. Even Israel says it's 'after Hamas' - well I suppose we live in an era of brand-recognition.

2) there seems to be some confusion in the reporting: on the one hand it states Israel launched an air-strike against a rocket-launching group, no reports of any casualties. Then a line down, Israel launched an airstrike = 1 dead Palestinian

3) Tel Aviv said it wouldn't take any military action unless attacks continued (showing benevolent restraint) but a line later "in Israeli airstrikes" (isn't firing missiles / dropping bombs from planes considered a military action anymore? Then what the hell is?)

Anyway, here's another cut and paste by an Israeli guy who served in the Israeli army for a number of years but has a problem with what's going on at the moment:

"How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe


Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the
Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But
its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions"

And here's the link:

Avi Shalim on Gaza in Guardian

Ok, that's my tuppence, I'll leave the rest to the experts

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

1. Hamas did take responsibility for rocket attacks from Gaza. This was NOT the first breaking of the truce, but it is 4 days AFTER the end ( four days of Gazan missile attacks)

2. "Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid."

different days. The casualty was Saturday.

3. "Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire"

Launching rockets is NOT "holding their fire", is it????


Each of us have opinions as to the conclusions to be drawn from this conflict, and all have the right to express them. They are opinion, not fact- in ALL cases.

Facts are determined not by what people THINK, but by what they DO.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

"A U.N. Security Council resolution approved Thursday night called urgently for an immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The U.S., Israel's closest ally and a veto-wielding member of the Security Council, abstained.

While the call is tantamount to a demand on the parties, Israel's troops won't be required to pull out of Gaza until there is a durable cease-fire. The resolution calls on U.N. member states to intensify efforts to provide guarantees in Gaza to sustain a lasting truce, including prevention of illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition."

"A Hamas spokesman said the Islamic militant group "is not interested" in the cease-fire because it was not consulted and the resolution did not meet its minimum demands."

"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas envoy to Lebanon, told the al-Arabiya satellite channel that the group "is not interested in it because it does not meet the demands of the movement."

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the U.N. failed to consider the interests of the Palestinian people.

"This resolution doesn't mean that the war is over," he told the Al-Jazeera satellite television network. "We call on the Palestinian fighters to mobilize and be ready to face the offensive, and we urge the Arab masses to carry on with their angry protests."

Israel's government says any cease-fire must guarantee an end to rocket fire and arms smuggling into Gaza. During a six-month cease-fire that ended with the current operation, Hamas is thought to have used tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border to smuggle in the medium-range rockets it is now using to hit deeper than ever inside Israel.

Hamas has said it won't accept any agreement that does not include the full opening Gaza's blockaded border crossings. Israel is unlikely to agree to that demand, as it would allow Hamas to strengthen its hold on the territory which it violently seized in June 2007.

With Israeli troops now in control of many of the open areas used by militants to launch rockets, gunman have continued shooting from inside populated neighborhoods."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

UNR 1701 Lebanon Ceasefire


"Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;
No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;
No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;

"14. Calls upon the government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11 to assist the government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft;


a. the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and;

b. the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorised by the government of Lebanon or by Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11; "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Why does Hamas keep fireing rockets into Israel?

This article seems to shed some light...



"The trap that Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni have created for themselves lies not just in Hamas's ability to withdraw its fighters and rockets into mosques, schools and densely populated neighborhoods, where they could probably survive weeks of bloody fighting or go underground. The larger fallacy is the persistent conceit among Israeli leaders that Hamas can somehow be wiped out by economic strangulation or force of arms.

Unlike al-Qaeda, Hamas is not merely a terrorist organization but a social and political movement with considerable support. Its ideology, however repugnant to Israel and the West, is shared by a considerable slice of the population in every Arab country from Morocco to Iraq. Because it is extremist, it thrives on war, the suffering it inflicts on Palestinians, and the anger generated by the endless, graphic and one-sided coverage of the Middle East's satellite television channels. Every day this war continues, Hamas grows politically stronger, as do its allies in other countries and its sponsor, Iran. "

"Though Israel must defend its citizens against rockets and suicide bombings, the only means of defeating Hamas are political. Palestinians, who have no history of attraction to religious fundamentalism, have to be persuaded to choose more moderate leaders, such as the secular Fatah. In the meantime, Hamas's existence must be tolerated, and it should be encouraged to channel its ambitions into politics rather than military activity. That means, yes, elections -- like those Hamas won in 2006, when it took control of the Palestinian legislature.

Those elections took place over Israel's objections, and the outcome caused the Bush administration, which had championed democracy in the Middle East, to lose its nerve. But during the relative quiet of the past six months, when Israel and Hamas observed a semi-truce, politics was beginning to work. Polls conducted by Palestinians showed that Hamas's support was falling in Gaza and the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president and Fatah leader, was beginning to talk about holding new elections for president and the legislature; he thought he could win both.

Egypt was working on brokering a deal between the two Palestinian parties. A split began to emerge in Hamas between leaders who wanted to make that deal and extend the peace with Israel, and Iranian-backed hard-liners who wanted to draw Israel into a fight. Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire. It then could have focused on negotiating a two-state settlement with Abbas and on improving life for Palestinians in the West Bank, while Hamas absorbed the blame for the unremediable misery of Gazans.

Instead, Israel took the Iranian bait and chose to fight."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

You don't give a source for that interesting piece, bruce, but (thanks to Google's magic)I see it's from today's Washington Post. Hard Lesson for Israel

"Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire." It seems likely that there are people on both sides who would have seen that kind of deal as undesirable, and who would have been happy to do what they could to provoke the other side.

That would be consistent both with the Israeli raid into Gaza on 4th November that killed six Hamas people, and the subsequent escalation of rocket firing and formal announceent about the end of the ceasefire by Hamas.

And the coincidence of the impending new administration in Washington and the impending Israeli election would have offered a window of opportunity and a political motive for those arguing for an attack on Gaza at this time. (That date 4th November...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

All true, McGrath, but what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue? Israel tried for ( four?) days AFTER HAMAS had terminated the truce to get them to stop the attacks: THEN they attacked Gaza to reduce/prevent more rockets.

IMHO, it still is the choice of the hardline Hamas ( both by inciting the attacks with continued rocket fire and by hiding in the midst of civilians) to have Gazans killed in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

BB

Israel broke the ceasefire on November the 4th.

Military targets? - I don't think so.

And before Israel broke the ceasefire, they had Gaza in a stranglehold, which according to todays BBC bulletins resulted in the deaths of around 200 palestinians who were denied access to hospital treatment when they were turned awat at checkpoints.


I really suggest people read this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

The current Israeli administration is carrying out a policy so vile that only two responses could possibly be expected.


The first is sheer horror.

The other is blind denial.



They are both well evidenced above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Threatens Truce With Hamas
Tuesday, November 04, 2008

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel launched an airstrike on Gaza early Wednesday after its troops clashed with Hamas militants who fired mortars into Israel, leaving six Palestinians dead. It was the first battle since a June truce mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory.

The Israeli army said the clashes erupted late Tuesday after its forces uncovered a tunnel in central Gaza that militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers. It said a special army unit headed to the area to destroy the tunnel. One Palestinian was killed in fierce gunbattles that ensued.

Hamas then fired mortars across the Gaza border into southern Israel and Israel answered with the airstrike in the early hours of Wednesday, killing five suspected Palestinian militants, Israeli and Palestinian officials said. The army said the airstrike aimed at the mortar launchers and hit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Looking in from the outside there's a tendency to take decisions and events as read, as if they weren't the outcome if disagreements and horse-trading between people in the system with divergent agendae. Some trying to calm things down and avoid conflict, others seeing no alternative but to stoke things up.

"...what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue" - so, with an election looming, if you are one of those who want to force more reluctant colleagues to go ahead with an attack on Gaza before the new regime in Washingtin might complicate maters, you want to make sure those rockets are coming from your fellow hardliners on the other side.

Maybe I see these things more in terms of "what family could survive if a airstrike is carried out on the house they are sheltering in." But then my first memories are of the Blitz in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

McGrath,

I think the Israeli Politicians were thinking "what family could survive if a rocket lands on the house they are sheltering in."

But again, to the point: Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

To Beardedbruce
GUERNICA
I have just read your comment about the mass bombing of Guernica in 1936.

I think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing.

The nazis bombed the civilian population of Guernica and some three thousands were killed.It was a war crime.It was shocking even by the barbaric standards of the time.

Picasso painted his masterpiece which now hangs in the UN building in New York and I saw on television some of the delegates hurrying past it without a glance just two days ago.

The point is that the Israeli bombing of Gaza IS comparable to Guernica.

The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs,tank shells,phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!

In doing so they have blown up schools and the refugees sheltering there,apartment blocks,houses universities and even hospitals.

As Gideon Levy has written today in Haaretz the Israeli newspaper those who support the invasion must also justify the slaughter.
And with several hundred children dead,pregant women blown up and thousands mutilated the war gang have much to explain.

Going back to Guernica when Colin Powell made an important war speech before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 he stood in front of Picasso's anti war masterpiece and it was only a hastily plain sheet covering the painting that prevented him from speaking in front of one of the great anti war symbols of our time.

What is happening in Gaza is a crime and those responsible must be held to account.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

" think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing."


I did not say THAT- I said that Israel was NOT conducting a mass bombing of Gaza, regardless of what you say.

Think Dresden, Tokyo, etc. THOSE are mass bombings- 100,000's killed in ONE NIGHT. Gaza is a targeted, very selective bombing- In most cases the civilians killed are in the same location as valid military targets ( which are in violation of the Geneva Conventions by their locations: WHERE are the cries of outrage over THAT?). The number killed is proof to anyone with any military knowledge that the Israelis are NOT targetting civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

I can't say that I've followed all this thread & I can only comment on what I've seen on the news etc., but while I understand that there have been lots of problems on both sides & lots of people think that Israel shouldn't exist for whatever reason, why is Israel being villified for trying to defend their own land? If I've read it right then it was people in Gaza who were sending rockets into Israel onto civilians first and broke the ceasfire, or am I wrong? When I've watched the news it appears to me that it's only certain targets that are being hit within Gaza, far from the wholesale destruction that some people on here are saying. Dreadful to slaughter innocent women & chidren I agree, and yes they should be given care etc. but if the people in Gaza are a fighting force why do they have to hide in people's homes, why not sort themselves out into a proper army & organise the defence of their territory? Surely if the other nations roundabout helped out then they could have a proper military force? After all if other countries like the US help Israel, then why don't countries who sympathise with the Gazans help to organise a proper military force?

The other things that I really don't understand is why are Israel allowed to get away with destroying things like fishing boats that people in Gaza own? Also is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"….the blanket bombing of so many innocent." – Barry Finn

Any idea of what "blanket bombing" is Barry? If so please provide details of any sortie flown by IDF pilots that would fit the description. After 14 days fighting in an area of high population density the toll on the civilian population stands at 0.04% of the population – Doesn't look like "blanket bombing" to me.

"The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs, tank shells, phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!" – Ifor

If what you state there were true, have you any idea of what that would actually look like ifor? Take a look at the town of Wesel after three days of what you describe -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wesel_1945.jpg

During World War II, Wesel became a target of the Allies particularly in its capacity as a strategic depot. On the 16, 17 and 19 February 1945, the town was attacked with impact and air-burst weapons and almost entirely destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Oh Bbruce, come on! "Selective bombings"?? Yes, selected schools, selected hospitals, selected apartment blocks. A bit like throwing a grenade into one CORNER (hence the 'selection') of a crowded room.

Civilians in the same location as valid military targets? Gaza is so tiny and cramped and overcrowded that I don't think Hamas (or any of the other militant organisations) have any choice but to operate alongside the civilian population.

And if that is a good criteria, not only are most of Israel's adult population also military or ex-military, they also live alongside numerous military bases all over Israel. That makes them legit targets also, right?

"Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?"

Well, here's one - let it go on record that I protest the deaths caused by these rockets.

But there's also an issue of proportionality here. What if the boot was on the other foot and Palestinians were fiercely attacking Israel with helicopter gunships, bombs, tanks missiles etc., and causing thousands of civilian casualties, do you seriously think I'd be saying "oh well, they deserve it"? Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?

The Palestinian rockets have murdered a handful of people - and once again, I abhor that. If one of them landed on my wife or family, I can't even begin to imagine how it would tear my life apart.
But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? Over the last few decades Israel has been teaching its neighbours how it expects to be treated in turn should things ever swing the other way.

But there's more to all this than just 'who started it' or numbers killed, or a war carried on by hardliners in each camp. There are root-cause issues of justice, national and social. There's the issue of illegal settlements (West Bank) and no right of return for palestinians who left or were expelled way back in the mists of time' (1940s) - or of Jews who were subjects of pogroms in the same area, for that matter - the blockade of Gaza making it, yes, into an open-air prison (i.e a place where you can't enter or leave at will, as we are all entitled to do in our own countries, issues of criminality aside), etc., etc., Unless these are tackled the bodies will continue to pile up.

It seems those taking the same line as the Israeli government and military believe that one dead Israeli is worth 100 dead palestinians, and that military force will solve all of these issues, not justice or fairness or dialogue. How much longer will these war-hawks be allowed to go on wrecking the world before people get sufficiently sick of them to do something about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

Full scale bombing of civilians took place in Charleston harbor during our civil war. After the Union soldiers recaptured Fort Sumpter, General Gilmore got fed up with the rebel guns that were pounding Fort Sumpter, and he turned the big cannons of the fort on the city of Charleston. All it did was piss off the population and stiffen their resistance. That's what usually happens when one side or the other refuses to follow the rules of "Civilized" warfare.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, did we say. "Oh my, we are doomed"? or did we hit back with all we had?
When Germany bombed London, did the British knuckle under?

There are two course of action over there. 1. Negotiate. Stop the killing, and work out a deal that they can all live with.
Or, Israel can wipe out Hamas to the last man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

Hamas speaks for itself on this 2-minute video.

video clips of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

"Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?"

From the past reaction here when Israeli citizens were killed, YES, I believe that you would not be protesting.

Care to show me an example from the past to the contrary?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Kendall,

see my post here of 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Look at the entire article- I would appreciate YOUR comments. Is it a fair evaluation? Should Israel trust the UN after the past efforts of that body?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

Nickhere,

You state "But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? "

No, but I do NOT believe that the IDF is acting in that manner.



Do you believe it is wrong to target a civilian population?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Looking at past threads...


Darfur- Tribesmen killed by Arab Moslims.... no real protests

Israelis killed by Moslim terrorists........ no real comments

Palestinians killed by other Palestinians... no comments at all

Palestinians killed by Israelis............. Loud complaints, protests,and moral handwringing



NOW I understand. It is the fact that JEWS are being blamed that is important, not that innocents are being killed. Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

"...is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?"

Well, the goverment of Gaza is now Hamas and they want rockets, bombs and munitions more than they want food.

There is no way that a population of 1.5 million can feed itself in an area the size of Gaza. The problem is the farm land that once supported 200 thousand now sports housing for much of the 1.5 million Arabs who live there. In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female. Gazans have the philosophy of "conquest by numbers".

Yes, aid can come from Egypt as easily as it can come from Egypt, but the government does not want to deal with these militant ****urds anymore than the rest of of the civilized world does.

As far as jobs and industry, why work? They are told on a daily basis that the wealth of the Jew will be theirs when Israel is defeated. They also believe that oil revenue is the birth right of all Arabs, which they are. Yes, Gaza is 99.4% Arab. Plain old garden variety Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

""And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously""

Bollocks!! Point to one post of mine stating that the palestinians are right in what they are doing.

You can't because I have repeatedly said they are not.

I have also said, and I repeat, NEITHER ARE THE ISRAELIS!!

Get this straight once and for all. Might does not make right. Never has, and never will.

As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?

NO! They were civilians, many of them children.

This mayhem will never stop while Israel is encouraged by people who indulge them out of guilt feelings from having done NOTHING to stop the holocaust.

BOTH sides need to be slapped down, and made to behave.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

DonT

If you make false claims about me, I am entitled to turn them back on you.

"As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?" (Not militants in the report I read)

The troops that told them to get under cover in the building were infantry- 24 HOURS later the ARTILLARY hit that building. IDF is investigating ( as they should) but this is an example of WHY THE GENEVA CONVENTION states that military targets should not be placed in civilian areas. Another example of the fog of war- IF deliberate I have a lot more confidence that the IDF will punish those responsible than that ANY Hamas will be held to account for their war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

" Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

...If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested."

So NO complaints, unless you think you are above the shit you dish out.


You remember- this from when you stated that Israel was only attacking much less than a square mile of Gaza (since the civilian casualties were too low to let you claim indescrimnate attacks, otherwise.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing.

And the IDF could very easily have killed far greater numbers if that was what they had been doing.

Throwing around those kind of accusations is just playing propaganda, and it provides an easy escape from the true horror of what has been and is going on. It's an accusations that doesn't have any impact.

What has been happening, on both sides, is that people are using such weapons as they have at their disposal as ways of conveying a political message to their opponents on the other side and of strengthening their position in relation to their opponents on their own side. And in this they have been coldbloodedly disreqarding the fact that their actions have caused, and are causing the deaths of innocent civilians on the other side.

The fact that there is such an enormous disparity between the death and suffering caused by the IDF actions and that caused by Hamas inevitably affects the way people respond. In one way this is wrong - there's a quote (from some great rabbi I think) about how killing one person is equivalent to killing a universe, and it's true.

But we do react to numbers - 9/11 affected us more than an assassination of a banker on a street somewhere would have. And the hecatomb in Gaza affects outsiders harder than the occasional Hamas rocket that actually killed someone rather than blowing a hole in a field. And I would seriously assert that for pretty well everyone, in this case it is not a matter of the religion or the nationality of the murdered innocents, but because of the scale of the killing. Not just in Gaza today, but over the years as well.

Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

More or less my point McG.
Thank you.

Josef Stalin said "Kill one man, it's a tragedy. Kill a million, it's a statistic"

The killing needs to stop before one side achieves statistic status, because for me it's all a tragedy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

A piece in Haaretz this week about something Israelis and Palestinians have in common If you (or I) were Palestinian

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization"...

The thing is - it's important that we should understand that though we can rightly repidiate terrorism as a tactic, but we should never assume that "terrorists" are that different from us, or that we have some moral superiority if we have never been in a situation where terrorism seems to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

On the subject of human shields,

Israel has made much of Hamas' cowardice in allegedly using their children as shields.

I am not convinced of the substance of this allegation,

but if it is to be taken seriously then shouldn't at least hold fire with our scathing judgements until we have found a suitable explanation for these reports.

Israeli soldiers using Palestnians as human shields?????

During this conflict ...

and

back in July

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM

Terrorism is born out of a fatal & final desprate attempt at a release from an overwhelming oppression. Had slavery in the US had the means & technology to wage terror it would have done so with a vengence. There is always some truth at the birth of terrorism but from there it becomes a festering wound that sickens. If an oppressor wantst o truly eradicate terrorism it has to start with an examination of it's onw policy towards those seeking relief from them & the causes that the terrorists sprung from. As with the US we have still yet to ask ourselves why we are hated & subjected to terrorist attacks. Until we asked these questions & do something about answering those asnwers we will only continue to treat the symptoms of a disease instead to treating the causes that are making & turning us into such sick societies. How can anyone justify the actions of Israel or Hamas, we should be condeming both, both are killing the innocent. You cannot ask one to stop & not the other, both are to be condemed. But I don't believe that Israel or Hamas wants to stop both have their causes to champion & crusade & the innocent be damned. The only problem is, were I Israeli I would be ashamed to be called an Israeli, if I were Hamas I also be ashamed but I would not be ashamed to be called a Palestinian. How many of each are dying? I see very few Israeli dying, I see few Hamas dying too but I see very many Palestinians dying. That is what the US did to Iraq or tried to claim it did. We as a nation invaded a country using the excuse that we were trying to stop a group not a nation from attacking US, so we killed a nation in the process. Israel is killing a people to get to an origanisation.

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Ok folks, we have flogged this poor old horse near to death. It has all been said and no minds have been changed.
I think I'll just check out on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:27 PM

pdq: "In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female"

I think I know what you mean - i.e such a high birthrate might be seen as a bad thing to those with few resources to care for the born. But especially in recent years I have come to see the birth of any baby as a source of celebration and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 PM

BBruce... I presume you looked over my threads in detail, as I haven't had time to. Not sure what qualifies as 'no real comments' to you, but I'm fairly sure that my protest about rockets / attacks on Israelis by Hamas (or whoever) above is not my first.

Since you don't live in my neck of the woods you wouldn't have seen me protesting about the Russian invasion of Georgia, as I didn't post any comments here about it (as far as I remember). But protest about it I most certainly did.

I found myself at odds with some of what you might call my 'long haired, muesli munching lefty friends' over that one. They generally seemed to have felt that Russia was defending breakaway regions from Georgian aggression. It was yet again one of those 'chicken and egg' things that infest our world, a Russian-doll of wars and historical aggression (no pun intended). Georgia, the big bully of Ossetia was being attacked by bigger bully Russia. Ossetia wanted to be part of Russia, but was part of Georgia. You could even argue it was Russia being spiteful towards the West for recognizing Kosovan independence in spite of Serbian displeasure. You could go on forever about who was right and wrong there, it was highly complex, sprang up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast, leaving hundreds dead in its wake as these things do, before you'd even have a chance to get a handle on what it was all about.

But what I did feel was that yet again the human primate was resorting to violence to sort out its problems. So I protested, for whatever good it might do when people are determined to hurt each other.

You know, when I was a younger man, I often felt angry, ready to aggression - "kill em all! Nuke 'em!" It seemed the best way to deal with life's obstacles - from bad neighbours to truculent countries or people who didn't think the same as me. Thankfully I never killed or nuked anyone, and as I got older I began to question this worldview.

You may laugh at me for quoting this example but in such cases I often think of what Gandalf said to Merry when Merry drew his sword, ready to kill Gollum: "put your sword away, do not be so hasty to take life! Can you give it [life] as easily?" (Lord of the Rings)

There's also the example of the Aesop's fable where the wind failed by force to get the man to take off his coat, while the sun by shining warmly, did.

You have to ask yourself, what do you want? If you really want an end to this particular spot of violence in the Middle East, it will require looking outside the 'iron fist' worldview. Have Hamas and Islamic Jihad's rockets brought about a Palestinian homeland? Do you seriously believe Israeli missiles will make groups like Hamas disappear and everyone live happily together?

As I said before, there are root causes here - something has to be done about what Palestinians want in relation to a homeland. Now before you barge in and say 'but what about...?' let's remember Israelis now HAVE a homeland. I believe if you look into it carefully you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact.

The two main problems are that Israel has tried to expand that homeland well beyond what was originally envisaged and to that end have taken over territories such as the West Bank which they are now settling with their own citizens regardless of the people who live there already; as part of this strategy they have strangled the economic and social life of both Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank.

Once again, before you say "but Israel was entitled to defend itself against aggression etc., and its exapnsion is part of that"

Yes, of course, it was - and is - entitled to defend itself against aggression, but that does not permit it to expand the original territory allocated either. It can defend itself effectively, crossing its borders to do so if attacked along those borders, then withdraw to within its borders. Curently it's sprawled well past the original Homeland allocated. It has to be said this seems quite intentional.

And before you say "but that's why Israeli army is in the West bank, to defend Israel from suicide bombers etc." let me state the obvious: If you want to protect your citizens from suicide bombers, you do not send them out to settle among their would-be assassins, and secondly, the occupation of the West Bank is the cause of the attacks, not the consequence.

Anyway, in short, you can't have your cake and eat it; Israel cannot occupy the lands and destroy the livelihoods of its neighbours and expect to live in peace with them at the same time. If these issues are dealt with, terrorist organisations among palestinians will dry up first to a trickle and then to nothing. Yes, there will always be a few individuals on either side who might actually go as far as carrying a life-long hatred of their neighbours. Humans are not always rational, and sadly both sides have reasons to harbour grudges. How will that be achieved? A two-state solution? A single state where (Muslim?) Palestinian arabs live as equals with Israeli (Jewish?) brethern? I don't know, and it doesn't matter as long as it works. But the sum of violence WILL decrease dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

"Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing." - MGOH

Em Kevin, the Israeli's stopped Hamas and other Islamist/Palestinian Terrorist organisations from carrying out suicide bombings, car bombings and sniper attacks by building a wall and closing/closely controlling crossing points. Hamas and other groups operating without restriction within Gaza then started indiscriminately firing rockets, both home-made (Kassam's), or as supplied by Iran (Grad's), into Israel. Those rockets are deliberately directed at centres of civilian inhabitation and the intention is to kill Israeli citizens, whether they be Jew, Christian or Muslim. The fact that they, Hamas et al, haven't been outstandingly successful is not from the want of trying. Numbers of casualties in those areas have been slight because the Israeli citizens in the areas affected are blessed with the presence of responsible government and have been provided with an efficient warning system to alert the population at large and suitable shelters that are easy to access and numerous. While Israel does its best to keep civilians out of harms way, Hamas as the governing body in Gaza does exactly the opposite.

1. Officially recognise Israel's right to exist and live in peace with its neighbours.

2. Officially recognise the right to life of Israeli citizens free from attack or threat of attack.

3. Halt the launching of attacks upon Israel and its citizens

Do that and you have peace tomorrow. After 60 years it's high time somebody tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

"you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact."


I have not found this to be so. i refer to the Hamas Charter, and nothing said by HAMAS has ever repudiated it. FATAH has changed it's view: Note there is no attack on or from the West Bank, under PLO control.

As for the territory, it all depends on what year you want to define borders: If you say pre-1967 war, I will ask both Why not give Israel the results of the war, and Why not use the 1923 borders that were determined when the Arab Moslim Homeland of Trandsjordan was formed. All the other nations in the region were defined then: Why should Israel be any different?

I have NO desire to kill anyone- but I have little sympathy for those who try to kill civilians deliberately, and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population does not give them the freedom to kill that they desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

You may not have any disire to kill anyone BB 40% of those being killed right no are Palestinian woman & children, 70 killed & over 200 wounded over this past weekend & no Israeli's???????

Somethings wrong with these totals, a bit one sided.

It's no wonder that Jews throughout Europe are now feeling the weight of Israel's onslaught against those in the Gaza.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

McGrath wrote:
Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

I think the evidence is against this. Israel already had the increased firepower and was not shelling, bombing, or targetting Palestinian civilians until goaded by unceasing attacks under the aegis of Hamas with their weapons, primitive or supplied by others, on Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians are being used as a cultural 'bullyboy'. The bully goes into a bar with a much smaller buddy who provokes a fight with the victim. Bully moves in, polishes off the target. The Palestinians are heartbreakingly miserable, but they are kept that way for a larger purpose by Fatah, Hamas, and the other Arab countries.

If the Israelis were like Hamas, there would be no Palestinians. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Israel's campain to wage war against the citizens of Palestine in order to have Hamas overthrown from within is not working, it is nothing more than terrorism itself & is now backfiring with Jews throughout Europe being threatened. Tit for tat is what someone said above. This will go on until the innocent civilians in both states force their own governments to stop devouring their own children. There are no excuses & since Israel holds the most power, is the most aggresive. hold the finiancial cards as well as most of the other cards of influence they should be the ones to bare the burden & make a peace offering accecptable, no matter what it takes. That's right, No Matter What It Takes. It (the ball) is & was always in their court even during the 67' Take!
As far as I'm concerned if they don't make the move they need to take now they (Israel) will now & forever have it's place in history as uqual & as oppsite as it holds a place in history prior to the ending of WWII.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Every now & then, a cartoonist hits it right on the head

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Barry:
What it takes according to Hamas is for Israel to cease to exist.