BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

To Teribus
Cp Gilad Shalit is a member of the Israeli Defence Force which has been waging economic and military war against Gaza for quite some time.And not only in Gaza .The IDF has killed quite a few Palestinians on the West Bank during the course of the ceasefire in Gaza.

It seems to me that the IDF uses its weapons to kill or maim during the course of quite minor disturbances...say while confronting stone throwing Palestinian children and teenagers.

And there are many who remember how Rachel Corrie, a human rights activist, was crushed by an armoured bulldozer while attempting to stop a Palestinian house being demolished.

The IDF has surrounded and enforced a blockade on Gaza for about two years.It has strangled the city of over one million residents [many of whom had fled from the north as refugees from Israeli forces ].
This meant that children in Gaza have become malnourished [put them on a diet said one Israeli leader ],jobs and businesses were destroyed and the whole economy of the city in near collapse.

It also meant that humanitarian and medical aid was severely curtailed.

This form of collective punishment was carried out illegally by the IDF on the orders of its political masters in Tel Aviv and with the quiet approval of Bush and his gang of criminals in Washington.
The IDF enforced this blockade with its warships,airpower and its land forces.

The Israelis broke the ceasefire whenever they saw fit.

I hope Cp Shalit gets out alive soon. But I also want to see those Palestinians prisoners released at the same time .

The longer the IDF stays in Gaza the more likely it is that another one of its troopers is captured.

Let me repeat.Hamas is holding one Israeli soldier.Israel holds many thousands of Palestinians, some without trial, and there are many well founded allegations of torture inside Israeli prisons.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

I'm afraid it never does any good these days Bill. If you believe in peace on all sides, you're in the minority here.

The shooting will probably come to an end at some point, probably when the people of Gaza have been bombed, shot, and starved to extinction, and there's nobody left for the intrepid heroes of Israel to shoot at.

I can't see it going the other way.

I suppose there's an upside. It'll mean one less Prison camp in the world.

Better if they just released them though.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Still refusing to answer fairly simple questions Guest ifor, can't imagine why you find it so difficult when you post with so much indignation and feeling. You prattle on about "JUSTICE" yet deny that for there to be justice there must first be truth, truth that you, Guest lox, John Pilger and a whole rake of terrorist apologisers here on this site simply deny.

Let's look at your latest "smoke-screen":
Point 1. - "Cp Gilad Shalit is a member of the Israeli Defence Force which has been waging economic and military war against Gaza for quite some time."

The IDF or any other countries armed forces or indeed "Defence Forces" are not capable of waging economic warfare, they neither have the international, nor financial clout to do so. If memory serves me correctly a country's armed forces have to go cap in hand each year to their respective Governments to get the budget that pays them for the coming year.

Back to the truth about Cpl Gilad Shalit - he was a 19 year old soldier quietly minding his own business inside the recognised borders of his own native country, Israel, when a gang of terrorists from Gaza tunnelled into Israel and kidnapped him. At the time he was kidnapped he was not occupying any land or acting in a manner that could in any way be described as aggressive.

IDF troops and their commanders use military force in response to attacks on Israel, or to counter the threat of attacks on Israel.

Point 2. - "It seems to me that the IDF uses its weapons to kill or maim during the course of quite minor disturbances...say while confronting stone throwing Palestinian children and teenagers."

And what is it that you would suggest they do, wait until one of their number are killed before responding in kind?? Are you really that naive?? Where were you brought up - Trumpton?? Camberwick Green??

Point 3. - "The IDF has surrounded and enforced a blockade on Gaza for about two years."

Correct me if I am wrong here Guest ifor but Gaza has three land borders, one border with Israel running NW to SE at the northern end of the Gaza strip, one border with Israel running NE to SW on the eastern side of the Gaza strip and a third border with Egypt also running NW to SE at the southern end of the Gaza strip. Now I can see how the Israelis could control their side of any border crossings on two sides of Gaza, but can you please explain to us all how the Israelis control the border between Gaza and Egypt??

Point 4. - "It also meant that humanitarian and medical aid was severely curtailed."

So humanitarian and medical aid has been severely curtailed has it Guest ifor, but not supplies of Iranian Grad Rockets. Now tell me how it is possible for Hamas to smuggle in weapons, explosives and rockets, yet it seems that they are incapable of smuggling in humanitarian and medical aid, did it just slip their minds Guest ifor, after all as the "elected representatives" of the population of Gaza one would think that at some stage or other they would look to the well-being of their population and place their own and Iran's political agenda on the back-burner.

Point 6. - "The Israelis broke the ceasefire whenever they saw fit."

I am afraid that the records show that the Israelis only ever broke the cease-fire when provoked

Point 7. - "I hope Cp Shalit gets out alive soon. But I also want to see those Palestinians prisoners released at the same time."

Lets face it Guest ifor, that would be a pretty long-odds bet. My guess is that like the two IDF soldiers kidnapped in Northern Israel by Hezbollah during their raid into Israeli territory in 2006. Cpl Gilad Shalit was probably killed shortly after capture. Videos and letters are not conclusive proof of life.

But one thing that our chat about Corporal Shalit has caused me to think about.

You believe that the taking and treatment of Cpl Gilad Shalit at the hands of Hamas is legal, justifiable and completely above board. It would appear that you condone such actions and have no problem with accepting it as a legitimate Palestinian tactic in their struggle for freedom.

So I take it that were Israel to do the same you in turn would have no problem with that. I mean how could you? What is a legitimate tactic for one must surely be a legitimate tactic for the other side.

Working on that logic the Israelis could say to Hamas, "Hand over Corporal Gilad Shalit live by 18:00hrs tomorrow or we will execute every Hamas prisoner we have in custody by mid-night tomorrow." Well that would be a damn sight safer than risking IDF troops inside Gaza wouldn't it. Or how about this Guest ifor, the Israeli's just tell Hamas that for every mortar or rocket fired 'X' number of Hamas prisoners are executed starting with the most senior first. At least then innocent "palestinian" civilians would not be at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

(Me thinks that T-Bird oughtta be kept to the one screen at a time posting... I mean, War-and-Peace (pun intended) length post of the same ol' garbage ain't worth readin'...)

How about no more than a screen's worth of your rubish at a time, T???

I mean, quantity of rubish doesn't change it's nature...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM

To Teribus
I have tried to be patient with you but I have to say you are a bit lacking when it comes to the Israeli /Palestine dispute.I don't think any serving soldier in the IDF is simply minding his own business on the border with Gaza.

He is a serving member of one of the most lethal armies in the world. It is an army that is armed with the latest military killing technology by the USA and it is a military force that the world has seen use its fire to break just about every rule of law when it comes to the treatment of civilians.

The IDF is a criminal organisation waging state terror against the Palestinians and two years ago the Lebanese.It has attacked United Nations workers and facilities.It has killed ambulance crews and attacked the International Red Cross.

It has just slain hundreds of of children,young mothers and elderly people.It has terrorised over a million people in all kinds of ways.Don't give that guff about its soldiers minding their own business in some non aggressive way.It has used chemical warfare in the most disgusting and shameful way.

And it has a track record of butchery going back to Beirut in 1982 and beyond.

The Palestine Resistance have every right to self defence. The Israelis keep massacring their opponents but they seem incapable of winning the war...or the peace.

I won't comment any further on your own personal comments apart from giving my general opinion that I find your views unsavoury and disgraceful.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

McGrath....The article you posted by Simon Jenkins...I agree wholeheartedly, in fact, further up the thread I had posted a message in the same vein, trying to draw the attention of members to the nature of "hands off" warfare, "sanitised slaughter".

What a disgusting species we have become, I wonder if Mr Obama can CHANGE the way we treat our brothers and sisters?
You are quite correct to take Teribus to task over this issue....this has nothing to do with historic rights and wrongs, this is about inhumanity, liquidation of fellow mortals with no emotional contact.

Teribus dislikes my "emotive crap" but when we get right down to it emotion is all that keeps us in touch with our shared humanity.
All the rest, the facts, the history, the legal rights and wrongs can be spun (as Teribus does continually)to suit any argument, or excuse any hideous atrocity.....Only human emotion remains straight and true, the warmongers are determined to remove all human feeling from the act of war...to sanitise it, package it and market it.

Someday ...if they get their way, we will have the technology to remove all life from any country, leaving buildings and infrastructure untouched.
The circle will be complete, we will have become God.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Bobert, when the Wginny folk get testy w vginny folks, which one hangs its own folks as informers and teaches its kindlings to blow themseves up and that God says its a good thing?

When Pallys and Israelis are limiting themselves to tasteless jokes and casting aspersions we'll be making real progress.

But yore sense of 'murrican histroy be too limited 'cuz you is forgittin' bout bleedin' Kansas and hard luck Missouri.

you got no dog in this fight so you ain't doin' yore 'search, bro!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Guest ifor re your last post:

First para - pure personal opinion, completely lacking in the slightest semblence of objectivity. Shalit was inside Israel therefore not occupying anywhere belonging to anyone else other that Israel - tell me where exactly would you expect to find a member of the IDF - IBIZA??? As for my knowledge of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, I'd rate it against yours any day. At least I am aware that it started damn near 30 years before you seem to think it did.

Second Para - All armies are lethal ifor, not much point in having them if they're not. But, just because your team lost, and has lost repeatedly, you perhaps over egg the pudding when you come to assessing their capabilities. This one was about three weeks wasn't it Guest ifor. The last one into Lebanon was what 33 days, a long, long time for the IDF. Take a good look at how the State of Israel functions Guest ifor and you discover a major flaw and weakness in its armed forces. Lastly on the content of this paragraph how anybody championing the cause of Hamas, et al, has the gall to witter on about treatment of civilians beggars belief.

Third Para - The IDF far from being a criminal organisation are the duly formed and official military forces of a sovereign nation state internationally recognised by the United Nations. If this is the sort of "emotive crap" that keeps you and Akenaton in touch with your humanity, you want to stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking and find some means of getting in touch with reality. Rather odd, the UN in Gaza must be rather unique, or maybe just lacking transport. I mean they f**ked-off fairly quickly when the bullets started flying in, let's see - Bosnia; Rwanda; Darfur; Iraq; Sierra Leone; Afghanistan. Maybe Hamas didn't let them leave, probably needed them there for propaganda purposes.

Fourth Para - Aw c'mon Guest ifor, credit where credit's due, they've also taken out quite a few of the opposition - around 60% of the total number of casualties were "freedom fighters". And I will bet not one single round of ammunition used is prohibited by either the Geneva Convention or any other international agreement.

Fifth para - The track record for butchery goes way way back beyond 1982, all the way back to 1920 in fact - maybe you should read up on it, instead of continually clinging to inaccurate emotive crap upon which you and Akenaton base you arguements.

Sixth Para - Reality check Guest ifor, EVERYBODY has the right to self defence, including the Israelis - In fact they happen to be rather profficient at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Is the implication that "the duly formed and official military forces of a sovereign nation state internationally recognised by the United Nations" can never be "a criminal organisation"?

That is a rather extreme claim in the light of the record of what some military forces that would meet those criteria have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"EVERYBODY has the right to self defence, including the Israelis - In fact they happen to be rather profficient at it."


So,Captain Blood, you see the butchery of over 400 children,and 800 male and female civilians in Gaza as profficiency?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

ake, more of the one-sided characterization of the war from you. You are applying different rules to each side of the same conflict. You don't appear to be arguing for anything with facts / logic. This is all very well but don't pretend to be an arbiter of reason.
Once again I put it to you, select a course of action for Israel after being attacked repeatedly over a period of months if not years. That the outcome displeases you is already evident, but what about the instigation?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

We are talking specifically about the Israeli Defence Forces MGOH. The specific charge laid against them was the bald statement:

"The IDF is a criminal organisation waging state terror against the Palestinians and two years ago the Lebanese."

The IDF is not a "criminal organisation" and in both instances quoted above by Guest ifor - Israel was attacked first, and that Kevin is a matter of record.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

As with Iraq, the outcome will not be to the advantage of America or Israel; Muslem fundamentalism will be strengthened by this attack ideology will not be altered by murder, not even the murder of children.
My last few posts have been about the tactics employed,not the rights, wrongs, or who instigated what.
In this conflict, women and children are being destroyed in large numbers.....by one side. Regardless of which side was doing the destroying, it would still be patently wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Unfortunately ake, the women and children are part and parcel, as are Hamas tactics they are being used as cannon fodder and camoflage by their own men, or more properly, exploited by the men who regard them as property. And with the powerlessness of women in that society, they will be used quite literally as breeding ground for the next generation. And it is patently wrong. And it will go on as long as they get away with it.

It is an argument I do not wish to have to make to observe that if you think the large numbers of apparently civilian dead are excessive, what if those who control the sky decided they really wanted to kill large numbers. They have the power to carpet bomb Gaza, and it is a power they are obviously not exercising. At the risk of their own people, similar to the Ramallah affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

To Teribus,    Re Israeli Self Defence
The Israeli Defence Force is a much misnamed military machine.

Far from being a self defence force it has waged aggressive wars against its neighbouring populations since the state of Israel was founded on stolen land in 1948.Indeed it specialises in the ethnic cleansing [the Israelis called it "transfer"] of the Palestinians from their homes,farms,towns and villages.

Spare me the cod zionist apologies and the cod zionist history !

Today Egyptian doctors have reported that they are horrified at the amount and the extent of severe head injuries suffered by numerous Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli troops.The children have been hit in the head by high velocity rounds.This killing spree had nothing to do with self defence and everything to do with mass murder which is still a war crime!

And lets be clear that Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world and it gets much of its modern state of the art weaponry including those F16 warplanes from the USA.

How encouraging it was to learn that an attempt by the US to resupply Israel with bombs last week from a US base in Greece was prevented by protests from Greek workers!

Israel is a strategic asset of the USA . According to Steven Zunes an American scholar:


"An Israel in a constant state of war-technologically sophisticated and militarily advance ,yet lacking an independent economy and dependent on the Unitedd States -is far more willing to perform tasks unacceptable to other allies than an Israel at peace with its neighbours .As former secretary of state Henry Kissinger once put it,in reference to Israel's reluctance to make peace,"Israel's obstinacy ...serves the purpose of both our countries best".

Israel is like an attack dog slobbering to get off the leash and last week it did.But it had nothing to do with self defence and everything to do with elections in Israel and the need to reassert itself against the Palestinians after the setback it suffered two years ago in the hills of Lebanon.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM

Who attacked first is never a simple matter in this conflict.

Every atrocity is preceded by a provocation, every provocation is preceded by an atrocity and both are always described as "responses", and some people seek to justify them on those grounds.

For innocent people slaughtered in the process it makes no difference that the people doing the killing were seeing it as a response or not. But the cycle continues and will continue.

The consequence of this latest round of slaughter will inevitably be more killings of innocent people in the future. It won't have saved Israeli civilians, it will bring about their death.

But of course it may just have saved the present Israeli administration from defeat in the oncoming elections...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM

I don't follow your line of reasoning robo, I don't think the Israelis are trying to kill civilians, but clearly the tactics they are using are resulting in the deaths of a very large number of women and children. This state of affairs is wrong and would be just as wrong if Hamas were inflicting similar casualties on Israeli civilians.

Regarding the "human shield" red herring, we are discussing one of the most densely populated areas in the world, it would seem impossible for police, government officials, or militia to avoid being around the populace.
All borders are sealed, as I said earlier to the Israelis they are "fish in a barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Wheather or not Israel is intentionally killing civilians is not known... What is known is that by killing them with the world watching is not going top bode well for Israel in the long run...

And, congrates, T-Bird... Actual less-than-a screes post!!! Ol' bobert proud of ya', Son... I knew you could do it, even if it did hurt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

ake, again you have no alternative for Israel. You allow that they are not 'trying' to kill the innocent, which is more than ifor is allowing. In fact, ifor is making the same case I am, that there is no present Hamas position for negotiation. GUEST,ifor might well be to the right of Hamas, and is certainly not to the left of Hamas.

GUEST,ifor is not seeking a return to 1967 border. GUEST,ifor is seeking a return to pre 1948 borders, in other words, GUEST,ifor is seeking the elimination of the nation of Israel. GUEST,ifor isnot prepared to make ANY accomodations whatsoever. That is not a negotiating position. It is a polemic which has not changed all the time GUEST,ifor has posted.

By the logic of GUEST,ifor, there is no negotiating to be had. For GUEST,ifor there is no argument. It is victory or death, or more properly, victory for those who are called Palestinians and death for Israel. ake, your argument assumes or presumes accomodation. You and GUEST,ifor are not arguing the same thing, and there cannot be a counter-argument that will match you and GUEST,ifor at the same time.

Let us not forget that accomodations for peace have been made. Israel occupied the Sinai Peninsula from 1967 until 1973 and then made a full withdrawel as the arranged outcome of peace negotiations. Despite the fact that Israel still holds the Golan heights, and Syria wants them back, there has been no fighting because Syria is launching no attacks on Israeli territory nor civilians. The same is true of the borders with the Jordanians. The Jordanians don't attack, don't allow their many Palestinians to attack, so there is no warfare. Only across Lebanese and Gazan borders has this occurred due to provocations and attacks.

Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

GUEST,ifor has had everything to polemicize about, but nothing to offer, and makes a case for continued war with every post.

If you don't want peace, you won't get peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:55 PM

And Israel clearly doesn't want peace... It has had its opportunities and blown them... They keep preconditions out there as if preconditions are the Holy Grail... If they wnated peace they could have it.... They are the only nuclear power in the region so it's all in their hands... They don't want peace... The want contrition...

They don't understand the culture of their neighbors or they would have have peace along time ago...

That is why they perhaps don't fit in that area of the world and their residents might be better served living where folks understand them and that they make an effort to understand their neighbors...

Security at what cost???

A couple million lives???

That ain't security... That is Hell right here on Earth...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

As I write this, there is relatively little violence occurring. Israel unilaterally offered a ceasefire, and since then Hamas has apparently moderated for the time being.

It is uncertain how long it will hold, right now they are talking about a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Why do I feel like a citizen of Los Angeles who is hearing about a gang fight and is being expected to root for either the Crips or the Bloods?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

The difference is that it ain't the Crips and the Bloods, Dick... It's the Crips and the old ladies at the local garden club... I mean, Israel is jst an arm of the US military and the Palestianians, well... They ain't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:00 PM

So, Bobert, you're saying that if the missiles Hamas has been lobbing into Israel for months were a bit more sophisticated, more lethal, then one might criticize Hamas as being bad guys. Otherwise the world should view Hamas as just playful folks who like fireworks. Is that it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:19 AM

Reply to Robomatic

I have written here on Mudcat on several occasions about what is widely seen as Israel's views on negotiations.

But for you I will repeat the basics!

Firstly Israel is not interested in a viable two state solution to the conflict. It has flooded the West Bank [where there were no Jewish people in 1967 ] with around 400 000 armed Israeli settlers who now live on fortified hill top forts and towns.

These armed settlers are often the most extreme zionists walking around with their machine guns and carbines.They are well organised and keep stealing Palestinian farmland,orchards and water supplies.And of course they are attacking their neighbours in all kinds of ways.

The situation is so bad that the Palestinian farmers have been issued with video recorders by Israeli Human Rights groups so that the world can see how they are being threatened and attacked. By its own actions the Israeli state has made a two state solution almost impossible to imagine.

The alternative is a one state solution in which all people who share that land Jews, Muslims,Christians, Arabs Secularists etc] would   have full democratic and civil rights with religious freedoms guaranteed for all. This is a solution that the right wing zionists openly scoff at partly because under this solution the Palestinian refugees and their descendents would have the right to return to their own land.

The third solution seems to be one favoured by the right wing parties currently in power ,or jockeying for power, in Israel.

Israel in a state of permanent or semi permanent war always ready willing and able to flatten its neighbours and the Palestinians with its full armoury of huge bombs,chemical weapons, tank shells etc.

It wants the Palestinians out of the occupied territories and indeed would like to see the 20 % of Palestinian Israelis who are Israeli citizens out of the country as they are a reminder of the demographic timebomb ticking away.

Israel wants a series of bantustans for those who are left.Bantustans surrounded on all sides by Israeli guards,walls and barbed wire with freedeom of movement under the control of the Israelis. And all the while it continues to steal the land from the Palestinians through for example the building of that giant apartheid wall.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

Well, Dougie... The rockets certainly aren't all that lethal, that much is fir sure... I mean, we hear about hundreds of these things being fired into Israel and to date we haven't heard of any more deaths from them then the deaths reported of Israeli soldiers from "friendly fire"... In other words, the Israel military seems to be more of a threat to Israel than Hamas..

But I'll stand by my styatement that Hamas shouldn't be firing this junk at anyone... That is rude...

But in comparison to what the Israeli military is doing it's not even a blip on the radar...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM

"It has flooded the West Bank [where there were no Jewish people in 1967 ] "

And WHY is that? There were thriving Jewish communities on the Wets bank prior to 1948. Perhaps you will tell me where they are now, and about THEIR rights.


Oh, yeah. They were Jews, and have no rights.

Bobert, you seem to ignore that every time Israel attempts peace, they are attacked. By YOUR standards, if I declare you are a racist, and a murdered, and there can never be peace between us, and attack you and your family, YO have NO RIGHT to defend yourself, since you are ( probably) physically stronger than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

PART III - STRATEGIES AND METHODS

The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf

Article Eleven

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators.

Hamas in Palestine: Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism

Article Twelve

Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.

This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with Heaven.

When Moses came and threw his baton, sorcery and sorcerers became futile.

Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.

Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it:

The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

From todays "Guardian" - Such commitment to peace must be very reassuring for the people of Gaza:

"Israel today pulled the bulk of its forces in Gaza back towards its own border at the start of what it said would be a swift withdrawal, so long as the fragile truce holds.

After Hamas followed Israel in agreeing a ceasefire yesterday, ending three weeks of heavy fighting that left more than 1,300 Palestinians dead and much of the coastal territory in ruins, Arab nations met to begin planning the reconstruction of Gaza's devastated infrastructure and economy.

The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said his government wanted to get forces out of Gaza "at the greatest possible speed". Israeli officials told the Associated Press the plan was to leave before Barack Obama's inauguration as US president tomorrow.

No Israeli troops or tanks could be seen along the main road between Rafah, in the south of Gaza, and the outskirts of Gaza City, to the north. The bulk of the forces were believed to have withdrawn towards Israel's border with the east of Gaza.

Israel has made it clear it remains ready to retaliate if provoked by Hamas. Seventeen rockets were fired into Israel yesterday, some of them after Hamas declared its ceasefire.

Today, Hamas's military wing vowed to begin rearming as soon as possible. "Manufacturing the holy weapons is our mission and we know how to acquire weapons," Reuters reported Abu Ubaida as telling a news conference."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

"The alternative is a one state solution in which all people who share that land Jews, Muslims,Christians, Arabs Secularists etc] would   have full democratic and civil rights with religious freedoms guaranteed for all." - Guest ifor

And the above is reflected in the way Gaza was "governed" by Hamas after the Israeli withdrawal in August 2005. Amazing how many of those trainee base-jumpers who died in Gaza were members of Fatah eh Guest ifor???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:52 PM

What rights do the Jews have under Palestinian rule and occupation?


Tell me again about the Jewish settlements PRIOR to 1948 on the West Bank....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

This Wikipedia page gives the total numbers for people living in West Bank settlements in 1948 as 480, with another 2,300 in East Jerusalem, and 30 in the Gaza strip.

It seems likely that in a peace deal there would be no problem in getting an agreement that people who had fled those settlements and their descendants should have the right to live in the truncated Palestinian state envisaged.

I don't know if there has been any effort to negotiate for the same right to be given to Jews from other Middle East countries who might wish to return to live there and reestablish their historic communities. That would be a very reasonable demand, in exchange for a right to return of refugees from what is now Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Here's another religious war. Innocents are being murdered on both sides.

Hamas was duly elected. That has to be faced.

Israel is overreacting and will not get the peace that they seek by these means.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM

Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

It is highly unlikely that a one state solution could happen in Israel/Palestine for a very long time although stranger things have happened in recent years including the collapse of apartheid in South Africa ,the collapse of the banking system in the USA and the fall of communism in Russia and her satellites.

In the unlikely event of a democratic state emerging those gun totin paramilitary zionists would have to obey the law just like anyone else so the stealing of land,the random shootings and the demolition of thousands of houses in occupied territories would have to cease.

However, far more likely is the scenario of the Israeli state run by increaingly reactionary and militaristic and racist politicians and generals intent on pulverising the Palestinians.

The war crimes committed by the brave young soldiers and airmen of the IDF will not be forgotten either in Gaza and the other occupied territories or in the wider world. For some strange reason, people of whatever creed or colour, become outraged when they see pictures of young children blasted to bits by huge bombs and shellfire.

Those Egyptian doctors who have started to treat the child casualties with hideous head wounds caused by high velocity bullets cannot believe the insane cruelty behind such shootings .

The Israeli leadership tries very hard to eliminate the Palestinian resistance but although it has overwhelming military superiority thanks to US, support it still cannot achieve its military objectives. Yes, it destroyed the university,schools clinics,hospitals,the cemetery, civic buildings and apartment blocks and thousands of homes. Previously it smashed up the airport,sewage pumping stations and the power plants but it hasn't broken the spirit of the Palestinians. It has not managed to free prisoner Shalit. It did not manage to prevent the firing of those small home made rockets The Egyptians have announced that no foreign troops will be stationed in Egypt and apparently only a few hundred Hamas fighters were killed [ although thousands of civilians were maimed and around a thousand slaughtered in the air and land attacks that Hitler's luftwaffe would have approved of]. All this adds up to more slaughter and civilian atrocities the next time around with probably more policing of the beleagured Palestinian Israeli civilian population inside Israel itself.

I have a question for the Mudcat Zionists which is... What rights do the Palestinians have under Israeli rule and occupation? ifor

---

Reply to Bearded Bruce
"What rights do the Jews have under Palestinian rule and occupation?2

You ask the question but there is no Palestinian state?

Poor beleagured and shattered Gaza is no state...merely an enclave which is attacked and surrounded at will by the Israeli military which has imposed a land,sea and air blockade for the past 2 years.

The West Bank is ruled under military occupation and Israel is further squeezing East Jerusalem and surrounding it with Zionist settlements.The Golan Heights belong to Syria and there is still some disputed territory that is claimed by the Lebanon.

I will say though that Israel Jews who have gone to Palestinian towns and cities to show their support for human rights and against the Apartheid Wall for example have received hospitality and friendship from the Palestinians.

And furthermore anti zionists Jews who have protested alongside exiled Palestinians and other supporters of a Free Palestine against the slaughter in Gaza have walked arm in arm with them.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp



Sorry, the Arab Moslim part of Palestine has been an independent nation since 1923- with Jews forbidden to become citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

OoooH Kevin, how sneaky of you.

The question was - "Tell me again about the Jewish settlements PRIOR to 1948 on the West Bank.... "

NOT - "the total numbers for people living in West Bank settlements IN 1948"

Now if a simple sailor like me can pick that up I'm sure lots of people reading this can too. Take it all the way back to 1920, take a look at Hebron in 1929, those Jews had lived in this predominantly Jewish town for over 800 years as far back as records go.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

PS For Guest ifor:

The Israelis control two of the three land borders that Gza has. Can you tell us who controls the third one? You know the border between Gaza and Egypt. Why have the Egyptians closed that border Guest ifor?? Surely the Palestinians in Gaza could get everything they needed through Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Let's be fair here. A number of people rooting for Israel have made a similar point, I'll quote Robomatic simply by way of example:

"Israel attempted numerous times to arrive at a peace settlement with its neighbors who were states and with the Palestinians, starting right after the 1967 war. Most recently a prolonged effort was made with Yasir Arafat as the leader of both the Gazans and the West Bank, the Prime Minister of Israel, and President Clinton. These negotiations did not bear fruit primarilly because of Arafat. As has been said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

One of the most recent major opportunities for peace was the offer made in 2002 in Beruit by the 22 members of Arab League, a group representing practically every Arab country in the region including the Palestinian authority. In return Israel had simply to agree to accept - not its 1948 - but its 1967 borders (which would still have represented an expansion on the original UN-mandated Jewish Homeland). This would have resulted in 'normalization of relations' such as happened with Egypt or Jordan. Isn't this what Israel always laments that it wants? So what happened?

Israel rejected this offer because it hasn't finished its expansion plans yet, which includes all the West Bank, Jerusalem and probably in time, Gaza as well, though given the barren clump of land it consists of it's less of a priority than the West Bank.

Similarly Israel rejected an offer of peace in return for abiding by the 2004 International Court of Justice ruling that its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal (and withdraw). True, its not a signatory but nonetheless what the court - representing international legal opinion - decided was offered as another basis for peace by Arabs.

Well unfortunately you can't have it both ways, Israel said 'no deal' and everyone went back to war, sort of. Perhaps Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas and Hizbullah, maybe Syria is tied up in something, Israel is definitely dropping bombs and so on, Hamas and / or one of the other splinter groups are firing rockets.

It is my opinion that Israel recklessly squandered those (whatever happened squillions of billions of years ago) possibly not-to-be repeated chances for real lasting peace because it is greedy for land. I'm sorry but fair is fair. You cannot lay all the blame on the Arabs for what's been going on. Indeed some people have pointed out that the Israeli townships near the border with Gaza (Ashkelon etc.,) are in fact on land owned by palestinians and not actually in Israel at all. Though this can be disputed endlessly both ways the root causes are undeniable.

Israel's goals are incompatible - it wants the land of other people by force but says it also wants peace at the same time. Indeed the one clear implication of its goals is that in fact it is Palestinian Gaza and the West Bank that will be 'wiped off the map' ceasing to be delineated as borders on the world map, but annexed as part of Israel. Pro-Israeli supporters at this NY rally admitted as much -


"Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, "Islam Is A Death Cult." Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a "cancer," called for Israel to "wipe them all out," insisting, "They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children." A young woman told me, "Those who die are suffering God's wrath." "They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?" said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally"

(You'll need to register with the news provider to read the whole article which is why I pasted a short extract here)

Link:

Calls to 'wipe out' Palestinians at pro-Israel rally


Had it accepted either one of the peace deals above offered by the Arab League, Hamas would probably never have been elected to power and it's equally unlikely we'd be seeing what's going on in Gaza now.

I think another question that has been posed remains unanswered "what rights do Palestinians living under Israeli occupation have?"

Someone tried to deflect it by turning the answer into another, spurious question about what rights Israelis have living under Palestinian occupation. I'd be interested to know which Israelis are living under Palestinian 'occupation'.

If peace is ever obtained there (and by now it's in ALL our interests that that happens) it won't be done by military force, except through genocide. Never mind Hamas or Israeli war hawks. Is anyone here willing to pay that price?

I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

To Teribus

As you probably know the Egyptian ruler Mubharak rules only through the support of an army of internal security forces and secret police.Torture is commonplace ! A bit like Israel in that sense.

He gets his funding from the USA and without that financial and military support he would not last a year.

He has agreed with the Israeli leadership that the border be sealed and wasn't a wonderful sight last year when Palestinian engineers opened the fence and Palestinians streamed out to buy much needed supplies.Don't you agree?

Actually, many people believe that the freedom of the Palestinian people lies through Cairo and the Israeli leadership is going to have to be careful that it doesn't step over the mark and inflame the "Egyptian street" so much that the hated Mubharak is toppled!It could yet happen!

I read in one report that Egyptian children and a few adults were injured by Israeli shrapnel flying out of Gaza and also that Israeli warplanes flew over Egypt after their bombing runs which shows two things to me
1 The spinelessness of Mubharak and
2 Some connivance with the Israelis against the Palestinians.

He hasn't done his reputation much good inside or outside Egypt!
But do also remember that Gaza has links to the rest of the occupied territories and residents have been unable to visit family and friends for years...another form of emotional torture for the Palestinians.Gaza is still an occupied territory while Israel controls , threatens and invades its land ,sea and air borders.

Today the BBC News reported that some 50000 Gazans have been made homeless because of the Israeli bombing and 400000 have no clean water.How long before typhoid ,cholera and diptheria break out?


On top of that there are thousands of seriously wounded civilians in need of ongoing medical treatment and the health care system in Gaza has been almost destroyed with hospitals,clinics and civic buildings damaged or destroyed.

Israel has waged a form of collective punishment against the residents and its main victims are the children who are malnourished and traumatised and the sick and elderly.

These are war crimes! And I hope that this Israeli leadership is held accountable for its actions in an international court of law.
It must explain how the bombing of apartment blocks and schools packed with refugees is a legitimate war tactic.

Israel is not going to easily escape these crimes....the computer is a powerful tool and there were enough journalists and cameras in Gaza to record the atrocities!

ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

Well, I don't know how the figures in 1948 compare with the figures at various earlier dates - maybe they are higher, maybe they are lower. I think it'd be quite complicated to get those figures for the West Bank as such. If someone can get them together, fine.

But the actual figures aren't actually the issue. The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Just to remind us what we're talking about here (and this doesn't come from the Guardian, bruce, it's from The Times, which no one has ever accused of being "left-wing"): Blind and burnt: Mahmoud, 14, young victim of banned white phosphorus shelling

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:48 AM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:12 AM

There are now UN calls for investigations that Israel has commited War Crimes & Amnesty International says that it has evidence to that fact. Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland, food & water is very scarce as well as medical supplies & treatment. "ONE THIRD" of the dead are children, how many of the rest were woman & how many were civilians? So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering & there's nothing in Gaza now worth saving. The US says that to rebuild will cost Billions. The money won't be coming from Israel or anywhere else in this world economy of today. So Israel has laid waste to a people, a population & an area now not worth resettling.
Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike. Israel should design a new flag & paste SS on it as it's background. This was ethnic cleaZZing, nothing less & all done with religious zeal!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM

After the ARAB control of Jeruselam from 1948 until 1967, ANY peace plan that left the city in Arab hands was not viable. WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well.


If Israel wanted to eliminate the population of Gaza, the number of dead would be in excess of a million. ANY statment that the Israeli intention was to do so had best address that fact, or be ignored as a blatant lie.



I wonder how many Georgians were killed by the Russians in the recent "disagreement ", and why noone here ever declared that Russia did not have the right to exist?
Weren't they a lot more powerful, and was not the Russian attack deemed to be "excessive" by the UN?





Oh, yeah- they are not Jews.


No need to comment about it, then. Perfectly acceptable, since the Georgians actually shelled South Osnia ( sort of like the Hamas rockets) and Russia pounded Georgia into the ground, and let the South Osnians ethnically cleanse all the Georgians from the region. THAT is acceptable.


It's when Israelis defend themselves, AFTER asking for the rockets to stop ( and getting only more rockets against civilians, with no outcry from the people wringing their hands over Israeli attacks, that the world has to step in and consider attacks on military targets ( that are illegally located in civilian areas) to be criminal. As long as they are by Israelis, anyway.


Got to keep those Jews under control, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

The Stop The War Coalition has called for a big demonstaration in central London this saturday.

It will be calling for :

An end to the blockade of Gaza
The bringing to justice of the war criminals in the Israeli leadership who gave the orders for the mass murder of civilians in Gaza.
And a Free Palestine!

Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

UN chief condemns rocket attacks on Israel
AP - Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:18:08 AM

AP U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon says Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israel are appalling and unacceptable.

During a trip to the rocket-scarred Israeli town of Sderot, Ban said the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons, and Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Negotiate with Hamas – Object Lesson

The Kidnapping of Gilad Shalit
Early on Sunday morning, 25th June 2006, Shalit was captured by Palestinian militants who attacked an Israeli army post on the Israeli side of the southern Gaza Strip border after having crossed through an underground tunnel near the Kerem Shalom border crossing. During the morning attack, two Palestinian militants as well as two IDF soldiers were killed and three others wounded, aside from Shalit, who himself suffered a broken left hand and a light shoulder wound.

Hamas Demand No. 1
Shalit's captors issued a statement on Monday, 26th June 2006, offering information on Shalit if Israel agreed to release all female Palestinian prisoners and all Palestinian prisoners under the age of 18.
Hamas Demand No. 2
On 1st July, Shalit's Palestinian captors issued another demand to the Israelis, asking them to free 1,000 Palestinian prisoners (in addition to all women and young prisoners as previously demanded) and to end Israel's incursion into Gaza (Efforts to locate and rescue Shalit).
Hamas Demand No. 3
On 3rd July, the captors issued a 24-hour ultimatum for meeting their demands, threatening unspecified consequences if Israel refused to release the prisoners as demanded (Which demand, I mean, you'd have to move quick to keep up wouldn't you?).

Hamas Offer No. 1
On 4th January 2007, Hamas offered to give Israel a videotape proving that Shalit is still alive if Israel released all Palestinian women and children from Israeli prisons. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected Hamas's proposal. Shalit's father, Noam Shalit, seemed to agree with the government's response, stating on 7 January, "I want my son back, not a video or a letter."

Hamas Demand No. 4
On 7th April 2007, It was reported that the captors of Gilad Shalit have transferred to Israel, via Egyptian mediators, a list of Palestinian prisoners they want freed. The list includes approximately 1300 names some of which are high ranking Fatah members.

Hamas Demand No. 5
On 12th August 2008, Hamas noted that they are suspending talks on Shalit's release demanding a complete lifting of the Israeli siege.

Hamas Statements relating to Gilad Shalit
Statement 1:
On 9th January 2007, Abu Mujahed, a spokesman for the captors, asserted that Shalit "has not been harmed at all," going on to say, "He is being treated in accordance with Islamic values regulating the treatment of prisoners of war."

Statement 2:
On 11th January, 2009, Abu Marzuk, Deputy Chief of the Hamas Political Ministry, told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat that:
"Shalit may have been wounded, and he may not have been. The subject no longer interests us. We are not interested in his well-being at all, and we are not giving him any special guard since he is as good as a cat or less".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Riginslinger quoted the following passage from one of BB's posts and then asked a question:

"WHy didn't Great Britain just surrender to Hitler in WW II? THAT would have saved a number of lives, and stopped the war, as well."

                I wonder what the world would be today if they had?"

I think the following covers it fairly well:

"Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science." - The Rt Hon. Winston Churchill, House of Commons, 18th June, 1940.

Oh Guest HUGO, I note that the "Stop The War Coalition" only demand that alleged Israeli "war crimes" have to be investigated.

Barry Finn – UEC – Usual Emotive Crap – 4000 homes and 50,000 homeless out of a population of 1,500,000 is translated into, "Gaza's infastructure is in complete & total ruin, it is a wasteland". Hardly Baz, I am sure the damage could have been one hell of a lot worse if the IDF had been intent on the wholesale slaughter of the population of Gaza.

"So now Israel pulls out, because there's nothing left worth conquering" – I don't believe that "conquering" anything was ever on the Israeli agenda. Hopefully now the "elected Government" of the people of Gaza will have enough to occupy themselves with doing something quite unique for them – actually providing for the Palestinian people – rather than progress Iran's proxy war with Israel.

Oh and 600-Up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

BBruce - I'm not sure who your last post is addressed to, but as it contains references to 'peace plan' 'viable' and "Jerusalem' I'm assuming cautiously that it's at least partly addressed to me.

1) Something special could be worked out for Jerusalem - maybe a bit like Berlin in times gone by. Afterall three major religions all claim it with some justification as their own, so it'd be reasonabel for them to share it. The devil must really enjoy the irony of the City of God being the scene of so much conflict and suffering. Afterall it is just a few square km of land, even if it has powerful emotional attraction for above mentioned groups.

2) "If Israel wanted to.... 1 million...etc.," Even Hitler didn't kill all the Jews - there were still several million of them left after WW2. I still hold that what Hitler presided over was a genocide. You seem to overlook that the Final Solution was the last phase of a long period of attrition that began with making life as uncomfortable as possible for Jews until they felt compelled to leave (along with communists and other dissidents). Once the Nazis felt comfortable enough that they could get away with that, they kept pushing the boundaries until it ended in diabolical and wholesale slaughter. That's the way these things usually work. I don't see any big difference these days, apart from cases where 'civilization' has already broken down and we skip straight to the slaughter without any 'legal niceties' entres.

3) perhaps you missed my post on Russia / Ossetia, I did protest about that, for all the good it did. No Jews involved in either side of that dispute as far as I know.

4) I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to insinuate that I, or anyone else who disagrees with your take on this, does so out of a basis of anti-semitism / racism. In any case you would also be implying that by rooting for the Israeli cause you are a racist and the object of your racist hate are Arabs, palestinians in particular. I take it for granted that you are not some kind of paranoid racist but someone who wants to see a peaceful solution to what's going on. Likewise, it'd be nice if you stopped assuming all other voices are anti-semitic.