BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Richard Bridge, no.
I do not agree with your interpretation.
This is not the place to discuss it though.

The comparisons in this thread to IRA were probably referring to the recent troubles, where the insurrection was a chosen alternative to the democratic process.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

Just wondering:
911 had about 3,000 deaths and two buoilkdings distroyed.
Was the response in Iraq and Afganistan, and the impact on civilians proportional?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:29 AM

Sorry about the typo, meant buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:32 AM

CarolC,

War is horrible, but even the Palestinians ( as opposed to Gazans) have said that Hamas is responsible.

"There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest. "


Yet they do love their children( - and all humans who are not trying to kill them far) more than they want land or the subjugation of others. Please see the Charter of Hamas, and the constitution of Israel. Look at how many Moslims are in Israel, and how many Jews are permitted in the Arab Moslim nations. Israel has traded land for a chance a security that Hamas has denied them.

It is Hamas and the Gazans that elected them that chose to smuggle in rockets ( that could only be used to attack the Israeli civilian population) instead of smuggling in equal mass of food and medicines.


If I spend my money on musical instruments instead of food, can I fairly blame YOU when I am hungry?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

It's as well to remember that when Hamas was established in 1987 it was assisted by the Israeli government, which saw it as a way of drawing support from Al Fatah. (Here's an article from The American Conservative which deals with this - How Israel helped to create Hamas - I picked that source to avoid any kneejerk assumptions about this being a liberal twisting of the facts.)

Here's a taster:

Hamas first emerged in 1987. It was formed from various charities based in the Palestinian territories with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement born in Egypt in the 1920s from which many of today's radical Islamic sects, including al-Qaeda, have sprung. Israel allowed these Islamic charities to gain strength and influence in Palestinian areas, hoping that they would counter the influence of secular Palestinian resistance movements.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas until his death by Israeli air strike in 2004, formed Hamas as the military wing of his group the Islamic Association, which was licensed by Israel 10 years earlier. During that period, when there was open conflict between Israeli forces and Palestinian nationalists, Israeli officials gave the nod to and even indirectly funded the establishment of Islamic societies in the West Bank and Gaza that might weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization.

Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, has said, "[W]e saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism." The very Islamic groups "cultivated" by Israel in the 1970s became Hamas in the 1980s, which went on to become Israel's biggest nightmare in the 1990s. It remains so today."

Of course the assumption that this was a misjudgment can be questioned. The overall effect of Hamas on Palestinian hopes has been pretty disastrous, and it seems quite possible that this longterm strategy may have been just what was intended by some of those responsible for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

Israel claims that it is acting in the interests of its citizens and that it is just defending itself, but if that was the real motivation of the Israeli government it would stop the decades-long oppression of the Palestinian people, not make the situation even worse. That brutal oppression is what has made ordinary Palestinian people so desperate and angry that they will turn to violence and support groups like Hamas - they think that they have nothing else; they don't see any government making any real effort to challenge the Israeli government over its illegal actions.

I'm sure that if what happens to the Palestinians happened to us, some of us would be firing rockets at the country that did it too. I don't think that Iraeli and Palestinian violence are the same - the two come from very different places, have different motivatons. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go through horrendous things every day at the hands of the Israeli government and see no end in sight, whereas Israelis live pretty much like we do.

If the Israeli government wants to stop the violence coming from Palestine then it should stop treating the Palestinians as if they are less than human, and the Israeli government knows that. The fact that the Israeli government has the full backing of the Bush administration in this matter speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Shades of US cultivation of the Taliban as a counterweight to the Soviets, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

OK, I will add to my last post that some Israelis do not live 'pretty much like we do' in that they have rockets fired at them and some of them are killed by them. I see these people as victims of the Israeli government's actions just as the Palestinians are. I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law.

My point was that most Israelis do live like we do and all Israelis have access to medical care, education, water supplies, etc., unlike Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

Haruo, were you responding to my post? I was thinking along the lines of the "war on terror." Bush tried to justify the invasion of Iraq by framing it as a defensive action, which is also how Israel is claiming to be justified in its actions in Gaza. I don't think that that claim could be further from the truth in either situation. Israel and the US are alligned as part of the "war on terror," but in fact the military actions of both create injustice and anger and so create more terrorism, not less. Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy.

Oh, and that last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM

"Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy."

do you mean Texas ???    :)


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST 1
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Phrased like that, it's quite acceptable. Problem is, Meir didn't put it like that, she made it clear that according to her everything was the fault of the Palestinians - they bring death on themselves - as a people (sounds chillingly familiar).

Guest.lox - you are on the ball with your observations about Meir's comment, but left out that it also presupposes that al the hate is on one side and there are no Israelis who hate palestinians or ever tried to run them out of their homes and farms.

And for those who defend the quote by saying "well, that's just what Meir said" - WTF? Where's the logic in that? And the REAL question is 'do you agree with her or not'? If you quote her uncritically, presumably you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

And New Mexico, Arizona, California, The Paha Sapa, Guantanamo............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

... yeah the list goes on Greg F. ..... Texas, they did take by force though.

in regards to the statement ... ""I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Yup ... those are my words, not Meirs's ... I really don't give a rat's ass what she said,. What she said is meaningless, it was years ago, she's dead and gone, it's all in the past ... just like "remember the Alamo" is meaningless.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Actually, no, Ruth, I was working off of McGrath's post about Israel's role in the early support of Hamas as a counterforce against Arafat's and others' secular Palestinian nationalist movements.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Damn! Going to have to agree with DonT.

Er - Heric - WTF? You argue that it is just and proportionate for an army to invade a country and kill hundreds because an extremist minority there attack your country and hill twelve - and that this is more justified than for an army to kill hundreds out of a population from which some have killed twelve? The invasion itself justifies the killing of hundreds?

I must be missing part of your logic, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Guest wrote: "I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law"

The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians. What they got in return was regular rocket fire and Hamas rhetoric calling for Israel's complete destruction. The Gazan's need and demand supplies from Israel and then Hamas sends rockets as their thank you note. They constantly bite the hand that is required to feed them. Seems kind of counter productive don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

"The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians" Catch yourself on man, the Jews STOLE the bloody land in the first place, not hard to see where you come from. Go biol your head of something.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

On todays BBC News[3pm]an ex-Jewish Air Force Captain Shapiro was strong in his condemnation of the Israeli Foreign Minister.
Captain Shapiro stated that he lived close by the Gaza Strip and he was of the opinion that the Israeli over-reaction will achieve nothing, he went on to say that it would make matters worse, also he equated Israels response as a war crime.
This statement by Capt Shapiro was in direct contrast to the lady Foreign Minister who gave a near perfect impression of a nazi propaganda Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

Yes, Richard, you missed the main point probably because it was too abbreviated. I never said anything was just or even proportionate – this is a problem far beyond me. I only pointed out that it is incorrect to suggest or imply, even by contrasts or opposites, that if the Israelis suffered twelve dead, they gain the right to kill "only" 1 or 12 or 24 or 36 Gazans. If you start with that premise, you'll go off on a tangent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM

Sara Roy, a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University, discusses the economic reality in Gaza and the West Bank and its effect on Palestinian behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Dr. Roy explodes the myth that Israel pulling the settlers and troops out of Gaza ended Israel's imprisonment of the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

Sorry, Heric, but what is your point? Is it that it is not permissible to kill 300 in revenge for 12, but it is permissible to invade and that if that kills 300 then it is all right? Or to kill 300 to stop anyone killing another 12, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

"That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility." (heric)

That's about as straightforward a rewording of "Might Makes Right" as I've seen in a while. But it begs the question. And of course it equally and oppositely justifies whatever Hamas has done, too. And it's such an efficient way of saving on ethics. ;-(

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

Texas? No, not really. Texas defeated Mexico (which had won independence from Spain about 15 years earlier) in a revolution of its own in 1836. Many, perhaps most, of the participants on the Texian side were immigrants from the US, but many (including a number of those who died in the Alamo) were Spanish. Guantanamo? No, not at all. The US enclave at Guantanamo Bay is held under a lease - the validity of which is disputed by the current Cuban government, of course. New Mexico, Arizona and California? Yes, probably. These areas were taken by the US in the War with Mexico in 1846-1848 and ceded to the US in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...kinda like Quebec, eh? The Paha Sapa? No more so than any other region seized from the Indians in violation of a valid treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

Yes good point on feasibility implying that might makes right but plug all your ethical arguments into objectives and human costs, not into retribution measures. When you guys have the ethics worked out I'll be glad to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

I join in Mark's prayer "for a quick end to hostilities and a peaceful resolution to the conflict" but I would substitute "FINAL" for the word "QUICK."

Negotiating a peace has, for the last 60 years only dragged out the fight. Better to get this thing decided. Let one side win and the other loose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Texas ... well Art, when you look at it Texas was Mexican territory literally taken over by the U.S. who stratigically promoted immigration to that Mexican territory ... sure, some Mexicans died fighting along side those immigrants from the U.S. but a lot of Mexicans died fightng to retain that territory which was legally and rightfully theirs.

It's a crazy world ... but why look back.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Well, I didn't bring it up, but you really should read a little history. Texas/Tejas was an separate entity under Spanish rule, but the new Mexican government incorporated it into the next state south (Coajila) and the state capitol was moved south about 500 miles when Mexico gained its independence. Immigration from the US was encouraged, because very few Mexicans wanted to move to the far frontier. Most of the agreements with immigrants were abrogated in 1830, which is what eventually led to the Texas War of Independence. Texas was incorporated into the US about 10 years after its war with Mexico, and it was the failure of the US and Mexico to agree on its southern boundary which precipitated the Mexican-American War.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

hey art .... after the Mexican War of Independance Tejas became part of the mew country of Mexico ... I think the guys below in that link would argue with you that Texas is actually now U.S. occupied Mexico ..

we want Tejas given back to it's rightful owners !


biLL   :)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

artbrooks...you are correct about Texas but wrong about California.

Californians, who were mostly Americans Indians, were oppressed by the Spanish and could do little about it. When the Spanish allowed Mexico to have it's freedom in 1821, the Californians wanted nothing to do with the corrupt and incompetent Mexican government. California eventually declared independence and applied to the US for statehood.
The Texas Republic was actually refused statehood the first try and had to apply a second time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

The earliest recorded history of the area is the Bible. (No, I don't believe everything in it.) One of the earliest recorded fights over that land was the Battle of Jerhico. The Bible says that the Jews won but it seems the fight continues after thousands and thousands of years. It is time to put a desire for peace above a desire for lost land or revenge or this will never end! Even on this thread people seem to take sides on who stole the land from who. Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end. As noted earlier in this thread the Bible names another battle there that has yet to be fought. Lets hope that never comes to pass!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end.

William Fauklner put it more realistically "The past is never dead. It's not even past." And the fact that Obama is fond of that quote is perhaps a hopeful sign that he isn't wedded to a Year Zero fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

It's not about the past for the Palestinians. It's about whether or not they will be allowed to remain living in the land of their ancestors, and whether or not, if they do remain their, they will be allowed to have any rights, and be allowed to live as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM

Well how many of us are allowed to remain living in the land of our ancestors? My own people were kicked off their land and forced to be refugees to a foreign shore 175 years ago. I don't dedicate my life to killing descendants of those who did the deed. The big problem as I see it is that neighbouring countries refuse to absorb these poor souls. To leave people in refugee camps for 60 years is a crime in its own right. Isreal will continue to exist, but it should be within its pre 1967 territory. The west bank and Gaza Strip could be aided internationally and perhaps would be if the people accepted peace. The neighbouring countries could absorb any overflow into a culture similar to their own. Every damn bannana republic in the middle east is using these people as pawns! Without education other than poisoning the minds of the people the religious leaders are grinding their own ax also. As long as people call for revenge,and revenge again, another eye for another eye, this can never end. The priority is to make it end; not right every wrong committed by both sides over thousands of years!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

You nailed it Sandy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Yes ... right on Sandy !

"The Past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

the opening sentence from the novel The Go Between by by L.P.Hartley

I have always liked that line and as I say, move on from the past, the future is about getting to know and understand better.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

If we were currently being kicked off the land of our ancestors, I think we would all fight it. Hell, even if we were being kicked off the land our ancestors stole from the indigenous peoples (in the case of those of us who live in such places), we would fight that, too. All of us.

It's not about whether or not their ancestors got kicked out of their lands. It's about the people who are there now who are currently being kicked off their lands. And anyone who says they wouldn't fight the kind of treatment the Palestinians are receiving at the hands of the Israeli government is a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:51 AM

Maybe in a few years time we will see television programmes, films and books called "The Diary of Anne in Gaza".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:22 AM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Then why don't you go back to the land of your ancestors and return Maine to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

One of the tragedies in the Palestenian issue is why hasn't the international community (and yes that includes neigbouring mid-east countries) opened their immigration doors (en mass) to the Palestinians. This would certainly allow them to escape their hell hole of an existance. I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity.

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:39 AM

clarification ... "I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity." .... I meant Palestinians would take the opportunity to immigrate.

BTW .... in regards to this Israeli / Palestinian issue ... in recent separate discussions with a Syrian and Jordanian .. both have replied in some retrospect that the Palestinians are caught in between a rock and a hard place ... the Hamas and Israel .... both have nothing good at all to say about the Hamas ... basically they felt they are thugs, who reign way to harshly and terrorize their own people ... both implied that they understand Israel's stance on self defence but do admit that it is heavy handed in responding .... the Jordanian blames the U.S. for most of the conflict. ... just posting this to provide a non news network mid-eastern view of what the hell is going on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

The Golda Meir quote is a bit disputed and turns up in various forms, but the variants quoted here are all wrong in a vital point. If one knows Meir and history, it is very obvious she never would have phrased it that way:

Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

And, on that point, she was correct. After Islam was established, the Arabs sent their people into most of their known world to defeat their enemies, take their land, and spread Islam.

Spain (and much of southern Europ)e were victims, not just the Jewish people who have owned the Holy Land (aka: Palistine) for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardebruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

"but it should be within its pre 1967 territory"

Why 1967? Because that was when the Arab nations lost the most territory?

WHy not 1948? or 1923? Or even 1921, before TransJordan was broken off as the Arab Moslim Homeland???


http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Why should Israel accept the loss of Jeruiselum, which thay had no access to before 1967 ( when under Arab control) and which the Arabs have had access to since then under Israeli control?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

> Ham, what's your point? I had nothing to do with what others did to the natives. All I know is, I was born here and have lived here all my life, (Up until now). If you know your history, you know that the natives fought like hell to repel the invaders, as they damn well had every right to.One of my ancestors was killed by a white man while defending an Indian.

Now, some of my ancestors came from Scandinavia, others from France and still others from England. Which place should I choose to "go back to" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

There is no reason for the world community to take in all of the Palestinians who are currently living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. There is no reason why they shouldn't stay right where they are and be allowed to live in freedom. What is being done to them is a crime, and it's this crime that the world community should be working to stop, not the ability of the Palestinians to continue to be Palestinians. Once the last Palestinian is gone, Israel will have successfully committed a total genocide of an entire people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

When a people are threatened, they will do anything they have to to avoid being wiped out. When the US government adopted a plan to eradicate the plains Indians they fought back with barbaric methods. We did the same thing in WW2 with the atom bomb, and Israel is doing it to the Arabs.

Natural selection in action. Survival of the fittest if you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Let's see...a man drags a girl into the bushes at knife point and rapes her. Total time of crime: ten minutes.

When the perp is convicted, he gets ten years in prison.

His lawyer screams that the sentence is disproportionate.

What does he expect, ten minutes in prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

That argument about people being threatened is much more accurate when applied to the Palestinian response to their total subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and slow starvation at the hands of the Israeli government. The Palestinians have as much right to defend themselves as anyone else in the world. Except in the minds of the people who refuse to see them as human beings.