English Culture - What is it?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:39 AM

Thank you, Leveller. Lizzie has made some very hurtful accusations about me in the past because I'm a teacher, She doesn't know what I teach or where I teach or who I teach. All she knows is that I'm only a teacher so that I can go to Festivals in the long summer holiday.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: davyr
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:41 AM

"This is only because some parents relinquish their responsibility to instill social behaviour and ought not to have been allowed to reproduce in the first place"

Well, I never had you down as a supporter of Eugenics, Diane! Any ideas on suitable baseline criteria for the allocation of breeding permits? ;-)

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:46 AM

breeding permits

Possibly, though I have no intention of expanding on that here.
Who, exactly, is to be held responsible for the irresponsibility of those who don't / can't recognise the lack?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:54 AM

"Who, exactly, is to be held responsible for the irresponsibility of those who don't / can't recognise the lack?"

I think the answer may be - education!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 06:02 AM

Well, yes indeed.
Education it is.
Children have been taught for a couple of generations to ridicule and disown their cultural inheritance. Their children can and should be taught to value it and, eventually, add to it.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 06:08 AM

"As with most "systems", there are obviously wide variations in people's experience from place to place"

This is true. The thing which came out of the programme I posted, which I thought would be incredibly interesting to the people who have been participating in this discussion (I'm not referring to the ones who periodically go off on screeching tirades) is that white, working-class boys have been identified as a group in need of special educational attention. The programme highlighted a particular out-of-school programme which has focused on young British black boys, providing them with extra tutition and a place to hang out after school, but which has also reinforced positive cultural role models. I hasten to add that this is not some "PC gone mad" government initiative - it has come from within the communities themselves, and they have found the funding for it. There are also people from within the community who staff it.

The R4 programme suggests that many white, working-class British boys could do with the same sort of project. It explained how white British society can learn from the sort of cultural pride which other communities take for granted. I thought that some of you would find this interesting. For me, this is a positive way of learning lessons from the cultures which have come to reside more recently in Britain.

The thing that worries me about this "English culture is under threat" argument is that it contains within it a resentment, a veiled aggressive subtext of belligerence, a need to reassert authority. The interesting thing about the Radio 4 programme is it demonstrated a more positive way of working together, of recognising the achievements and good practice within one community and saying, "Maybe we can learn from this..." The programme also discusses many of the difficult and tricky aspects of the argument which have been touched on in this and other discussions, which is why I highly recommend listening to it.


With regard to the UK education system, my daughter is currently in her first year of GCSEs and is doing fine. She's a clever girl and just got As on her science mocks, but I don't see any signs that she's headed for breakdown as a result of the academic pressure being placed on her. Her school is quite academically rigourous, and she gets the occasional kick up the arse when she needs it (most kids do from time to time) but she seems to balance her academic achievement with a very healthy social life. I should add that she's at an all-girl's school, which seems to encourage a more focused academic environment.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 06:09 AM

Hurrah! I'm all for that - and it brings the thread very neatly back on track. Off now to investigate the English culture of fine beer in convivial company.

Blessings on all.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:24 AM

Just noticed a reference to "intrinsically African". What the fuck is this?
"Africa" is a geographical term for an immense continent encompassing a bewildering variety of ethnicities and cultures, examples of which are establishing themselves in England as a result of an imperial past.

Is the OP denying the glorious array of such diverse genres as Touareg desert rock, southern township jive, the fado influence of former Portuguese colonies, the blues DNA of Mali and the Maghrebi / Berber rhythms of the north and wishing them all to be merged into one bland "Afro-pop" nonenity spewed out by coffee-coloured, anti-cultural buffoons? Any old deity forfend . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

In the season of peace and goodwill to all - I see a recognisable pattern developing.

One of the posters who shall remain nameless stirs up some fertiliser or other and goes on a mad rant. Most sane people recognise it for pretentious shite and write accordingly.

Said poster accuses all of sundry and eventually the rest of the world (except for one beautiful person) that they are against said poster.

SP writes that SP will never ever ever grace the doors of Mudcat 'cos SP knows everything and the rest of the world (except for one beautiful person) knows very little.

SP comes back tentatively and most people ignore said poster as writing usually consists of links to other sites.

Then as SP realises that SP is being ignored - starts stirring fertiliser.

SP then gets brave enough to start a thread. This can be "Why the BBC is not a cultural organisation" to "Folk Police - you are all against my favourite artists" to "Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman - Why They Deserve Loads of Honours Heaped Upon Them!".

People then contradict SP who gets more and more voluble eventually promising never to post on Mudcat again.

And so the cycle starts again.

We are coming towards the "Never again on Mudcat" point on this thread.

Look out for the next posting about the end of January.

As I said - peace and gpoodwill.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,Eleanor Rooseveldt's knickers
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 12:31 PM

Brilliant, Folkiedave!

I don't know why we fall for it every time.

Merry Christmas one and all.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 01:16 PM

Me: "George Best was part of the England World Cup Squad,.."

You: "Now if you can get a simple, checkable fact like that wrong what dos it say for the rest of your post?"

Probably that I know very little about football and far more about what is happening in many schools? :0)

But, yes...absolutely *no* excuse to be made on my part there, other than daffyness and associating Manchester United's George with the England team. Thank you for pointing it out.

Simply The Best


As to your second post, I'm assuming you've either been at the Christmas Eve sherry a little early or the usual spinning is happening, dave. :0)


leveller - You have no idea how very lucky you are. None at all. And thank you, but I know much about the education system. I can tell you things that'd make your hair stand on end, that not only have happened to my kids, but to those of my friends as well.


Davy - Yes, Education Otherwise, I couldn't agree more. They helped to save my daughter's life. When Iris first started it, after very similar problems befell her own daughter, she had no idea what lay ahead for her, how she would go on to save the lives of so many children pushed almost to the brink of suicide by a system that so often doesn't care. She's a brave and wonderful woman.

Anyone can sign up for their magazine, and in there you'll find a host of wise and useful information, as well as many heartbreaking, yet uplifting letters about children who've been to hell and back in the school system, but whose lives have been transformed for the better, once they left it. So if there's anyone reading this, whose child/children are struggling, then there's help at hand, a whole army of people 'out there' who understand exactly what's happening for so many families and who want to do all in their power to help.
Please look at Davy's link to EO, above and then contact them if you need to, they are always there for you.

Diane - I agree with you that many teachers can no longer teach as they want to. Many schools have become 'holding pens' where just keeping order is the main job of the day. I do not agree that this is *solely* down to parents, although I agree that many parents have walked away from responsibility. There are many other contributing factors though. The education system and 'school' itself are, in my opinion, also contributing hugely to the current problems. And I disagree again, because school is not 'easy' for everyone. Not at all.



In my opinion, teachers are 'born' not made. They are born with an understanding of others, a desire to help others, a love of children, and a desire to set children on the right path in their lives, not just academically, but spiritually too. They never belittle or humiliate.

Natural teachers 'educate the heart' as Aristotle spoke of.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for natural teachers.


And now, back to English Culture...after a busy Christmas Eve in The National Trust shop, selling loads of beautiful books about England. Things are looking up, people want to know about this country again. :0)

A very Merry Christmas to everyone.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM

Ian Beale - A Scrooge for our times? Spooky Eastenders tonight...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:03 PM

George Best was part of the England World Cup Squad.
George Best was a Northern Ireland international.
Lizzie,Diane,I am not interested in taking sides,just stating a fact.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

the first statement,was a quote from.Lizzie.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

Best made 37 appearances for Northern Ireland and scored 9 goals.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:53 PM

As a point of information, I didn't actually make any comment on the lizziecornish footballing boob of the century as Dave got to it first.
I might have let slip that everything else she says is complete bollocks though . . .

While I'm here, someone doubted that George Michael is Jewish.
Reluctant though I am to concur with Nerd the Tedious, the ex-Wham's mother's family is Jewish and thus he is too.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:21 PM

Thanks, Diane. I'm sorry you feel you have to insult me at every opportunity.

"Ethnically English" is of course meaningless. English people have ancestors who were Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Roman soldiers from all over the Empire, Normans (themselves mongrel French-Scandinavians), Danes, etc., etc...and, probably Jews as well. There have been Jews in England as long as there have been Normans, and probably longer than that (as you yourself pointed out, they were unsuccessfully and incompletely banished in 1290). The proposition that Jews, whose families may have lived in England for nine hundred years, can't be considered English is a bit thick. And your use of a clearly anti-semitic and literally Medieval law claiming Jews were a non-English race and expelling them from the country as support for your position is troubling.

Your suggestion that Jews are intrinsically un-English could be interpreted as anti-Semitic (though I don't believe you intended it that way), and would certainly cause offense among English Jews. Furthermore, the idea that English Jews might contribute to English culture but can't be considered representative of it seems self-contradictory. Some of the people mentioned on this thread, for good or ill (Malcolm McLaren for example), are Jews, and most English people are unaware of it. Same with folks like Mick Jones of the Clash and Charlie Watts of the Stones. Most people just consider them part of the cultural scene in England, and, I think, "representative" of English culture...again, for good or ill.

One might as well say the Watersons aren't representative of English culture because of their Romany-Irish heritage. They'd tell you where to stick that idea!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM

Nerd,

You have hit the nail on the head.

In the midst of somebody's silly garden fence squabble, somebody has made a significant error.

Using the attempted expulsion of Jews in the 13th century as evidence to distinguish them from English culture is like using expulsion of Jews from European society in the 1930's and 40's as evidence of their non-europeanness.

And to emphasize your point and repeat mine, "they" have been in England as long if not longer than that other group, the christians.

Diane, you are embarking on a very dangerous road if you persist with the view that Sid James can be distinguished as non English since he is in fact Jewish.

I suggest you consider your mistake and explain what you really meant.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 03:02 AM

Such muddled thought, and not even from madlizziecornish. Have some of you been swigging the sherbert just a tad early?

As any fule kno, I cited the expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290 as a specific example of their persecution, to add to someone else's somewhat incomplete catalogue. Where exactly did I say this medieval law was justified? I did not. I merely stated that it was implemented. Nor did I say "Sid James can be distinguished as non-English because he is Jewish". I said he was South African with a Jewish ancestry.

The point was to show that neither he nor the distinctly shamrock-tinged George Best are clear-cut examples, by a long chalk, of "Englishness", and thus glaringly ill-chosen by the OP. It wasn't me who tried to insert either into the England football team in the vain hope of proving an unsustainable point. I did underline, however, that each had shagged the landlady of the Queen Vic (though not, as far as I know, simultaneously). Some might deem that passing the "Englishness" test. Who knows?

The premise of this thread was a quote of mine, dragged screaming out of context, with some vague aim of stirring the shit but, principally, to provide a platform to regurgitate every tired old prejudice culled from the Middle England sewer that runs down Derry Street. And haven't we had them all, yet again and at length? Dave Eyre has summed it up neatly a mile or two up the thread, except that MLC has not (yet) flounced off to MySpace, vowing "never to post on Mudcat again".

This sort of meandering thread does also serve as a soapbox for any other tired old whinger to emerge from the woodwork, which is the only conceivable reason for their tacit tolerance of MLC's rantings. We are all, of course, only too aware of the Tedious Nerd, but just check on one of "Lox"'s early postings: it's a complaint about the "anti-semitism" of the funniest film ever, Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert. I almost look forward to MLC's views on that one.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 04:46 AM

One might as well say the Watersons aren't representative of English culture because of their Romany-Irish heritage. They'd tell you where to stick that idea!.[quote]
Martin is of Irish descent,not sure about John Harrison or the Watersons,they may or may not be of traveller descent,but not all travellers are of irish descent.
I have traveller ancestry too,[and they were fiddlers]but I am not sure they were Irish[tracing itinerants is much more difficult than tracing middle class burghers] .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 05:48 AM

Martin is nothing to do with the Watersons as a family. He is a Carthy. The clue is in the name. He married Norma in 1972.

John Harrison is a (very) distant cousin.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM

my points Dave.
1.are the Watersons IRISH?,
2.are they of traveller descent?
3.both John Harrison, and MartinCarthy,were members of the Watersons.
4,was John Harrison a cousin.
5.Martin is of Irish descent,he is a member of the Watersons,so one member is of Irish descent,but the original group werent,but possibly were of traveller descent.
6,It doesnt matter anyway,because all formations of the watersons were /are great.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

1.are the Watersons IRISH?, Not aat all - no way - never.

2.are they of traveller descent? I doubt very much if they are. Put it this way, Mike's uncle Len denied it vehemently.

3.both John Harrison, and MartinCarthy,were members of the Watersons.

So were Pete Ogley a founder member, Sue Cochrane who stood in for Lal when she was pregnant, Bernie Vickers who replaced John Harrison when the Watersons reformed when Norma came back from the West Indies, and Jill Pidd.

4,was John Harrison a cousin. Like I said - a very distant cousin and certainly not a first cousin.

5.Martin is of Irish descent,he is a member of the Watersons,
so one member is of Irish descent,but the original group werent,but possibly were of traveller descent.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

Two points,

(1) Yes, the Watersons have Irish and Gypsy forbears.

This is from the "Norma" page at the official Waterson:Carthy website:

"Both sides of Norma's family were musical and almost all of her extended family were accomplished musicians. Partly of Irish gipsy descent, like thousands of others they came to folk song through an early interest in jazz and skiffle."

I have, by the way, spoken extensively with Martin for an in-depth cover story profile I did on him about ten years ago, and spoken less extensively with both Norma and Eliza. Such details tend to come out more in directed interviews of that sort than in the more natural, friendly contact many of you have probably had with the family.

However, they have never really hidden their Gypsy ancestry; the last time I saw the Watersons (as opposed to Waterson:Carthy), in the early 1990s, they referred to it in their stage patter, and I believe it's even referred to in the 1965 film about them, called "Traveling for a Living."

(2) Diane, I wasn't in my last post referring to your remarks about Sid James specifically, but to your later post, in which you referred to the 1290 expulsion and said:

I still think referring to the 1290 expulsion as evidence of anything about modern England is off-base. If nothing else, England has evolved considerably since then! So, the English aristocracy in 1290 didn't consider the Jews to be English...most of them were native speakers of Norman French. Many modern English people wouldn't consider THEM English!

You also said: "While representatives of such backgrounds [i.e. Irish and Jewish] may live in in 'enlightened' England today and play an equal part in a diverse culture, they are not ethnically English, nor are they representative of English culture although they may contribute to it. This is a lazy description of a 'white' resident who may, rightly, feel insulted at being lumped in with the oppressor, and is a clear hangover of imperialism."

I suspect from this remark that you are more familiar with the case of the Irish in England (who may indeed consider themselves not to be English) than with English Jews. And I did say I didn't think you were intending to be anti-Semitic, because I saw from the above that you fear that English Jews may resent being considered English and you wish to respect that. I appreciate that impulse, but I don't think it's necessary.

The historical circumstances that led to Irish people and Jewish people coming to England were very different. Irish people went there, by and large, because they were already colonized, and thus could be used as an economic underclass within a colonial system. This led to a set of attitudes about England, to which you refer above.

The medieval Jews went to England for economic opportunity at a time when all of Europe was hostile to them, so one place was the same as any other. But the 19th and 20th Century Jewish immigrants went there because England was a relatively welcoming place where they had equal rights under civil law, and although they suffered some anti-semitism there (as they would anywhere) it was very mild compared to most other places. In other words, they felt (relatively) welcome, were able to assimilate rapidly, and now feel quite happy to be a subset of "English," just as most American Jews feel thoroughly "American."   

I have a large Jewish family in England, on both sides, and I can tell you that they consider themselves to be English, and consider their artistic endeavors to be part of English culture. In fact, as I said, they'd be insulted to be considered "non-English." (Sometimes, they take their Englishness TOO seriously. I still remember the outrage when I considered a year abroad at Oxford. My late cousin, who was of my grandfather's generation, thoroughly English, and in fact a Barrister who reminded everyone of Rumpole, told me quite seriously, "our family has always gone to Cambridge!" The American side of the family got a good laugh at how pretentious it sounded.)

By the way, I don't know if anyone here has seen Mike Leigh's play "Five Thousand Years," but it's about the confusion a Jewish family from London feels when one of their children actually begins to observe the Jewish religion. He is considered almost insane by the rest of the family, who are thoroughly assimilated middle-class English people who happen also to be Jewish.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

By the way, folkiedave's comments suggest that there may be controversy within the Waterson family as to whether they have traveller descent. I'm only reporting what I've heard Norma say and what is on her official website.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

Rats, I messed up in my last post but one. I ascribed to Diane some of my own verbiage. The quote from Diane was meant to be:

"The Jews, in common with other European countries throughout history at various times, were expelled from Britain in 1290 as a race."

It was I who said, in repsonse, the following:

"I still think referring to the 1290 expulsion as evidence of anything about modern England is off-base. If nothing else, England has evolved considerably since then! So, the English aristocracy in 1290 didn't consider the Jews to be English...most of them were native speakers of Norman French. Many modern English people wouldn't consider THEM English!"

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:02 PM

Folkie Dave,You are very well informed,and I know you have been involved with the Yorkshire folk scene a long time,I accept what you say.You have confirmed my original thoughts.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

I can only say what their Uncle Len - their father's brother - told me.

There was no family dispute about it as far as I am aware.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:27 PM

The medieval Jews went to England for economic opportunity at a time when all of Europe was hostile to them, so one place was the same as any other.

All of Christian Europe. They didn't have many problems in Muslim Spain.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:34 PM

Well no, not until 1492 when Ferdinand and Isabella booted them out pretty damn quick.
Not everyone was over the moon about the Reconquista, but at least Columbus had conveniently just "found" America . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

folkiedave,

If Len said one thing and Norma says another, both in person and on her website, that must count as controversy, surely.

However, is it possible that it was Mike, Lal and Norma's mother who carried the Irish Gypsy descent? That would be consistent with Len NOT having any such ancestry, no?

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 03:04 PM

Indeed it would.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 03:31 PM

I'd guess that's the answer then.

Eliza C. tends to stop by and put us right on these things, but as she just gave birth last night (see the Congratulations Eliza Carthy thread), it seems unlikely she'll be along too soon!

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 04:12 PM

Ok Diane,

I get where you're coming from now.

First, if you are going to claim to quote me then do so accurately.

Bring up the post you have referred to and let people se exactly whether it says what you claim or not.

Then, when it becomes obvious that, in your haste to discredit me, youe only gave it the most cursory glance, we can begin to wonder who the hell you think you are.

But then paying attention to what has been written here, even by yourself, isn't your strong point, personal attacks are.

And I don't give a fuck about your garden party tiff with eva peron or whoever you think she is, I'm talking about your wilful and unprovoked attacks on me.

Listen up.

You gave two criteria why it is wrong to call sid james representative of British culture.

1. He's south african - fair enough

2. He's Jewish - err ....

Your argument (cut and paste) was that:

"Sid James was a South African Jew."

And you explained your point by saying,

"the combination is about as far removed from an instrinsically English cultural stereotype as you can get"

In other words, not only is he south African (pretty unenglish) but he is Jewish.

The Jewish factor for you seals the case conclusively that he couldn't be considered representative of English culture in any way.

BUSTED!!!!

Now you go and start the revolution in some mad old ladies gift shop if you like and when you've trashed the place you can plant your England flag and pat yourself on the back for the great valour you have shown, but beware cos I can see how nasty you are when the "right on" facade has been stripped away.

And don't ever go on the offensive against me without a reason.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 04:29 PM

Mad ol' lox feels "attacked" 'cos I said he called Priscilla Queen Of The Desert anti-semitic.
Jeez, he's even more bonkers than MLC . . .

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

Lizzies Question:

What is English culture?

Lizzies answer (amongst others).

Sid James.

Diane Easby's response:

Lizzie is wrong ... and out of two reasons one is that He was Jewish

It is all there in this thread.

Diane doesn't have a satisfactory explanation.

So she flails about desperately dredging up old posts of mine that she hasn't read properly, in the process embarrassing herself.

Truth is that it is as clear as the nose on barry manilows face that Diane is painting herself as an unapologetic closet racist though I feel it is more likely that she is just an adolescent minded snipe who has got herself out of her depth.

For the record.

Disraeli (A British Prime minister) was Jewish.

The South African, Jan Smuts, importance "to the Imperial war effort was emphasised by a quite audacious plan, proposed as early as 1940, to appoint Smuts as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, should Churchill die or otherwise become incapacitated during the war. This idea was put by Sir John Colville, Churchill's private secretary, to Queen Mary and then to George VI, both of whom warmed to the idea"

And perhaps this next point can be confirmed, but I seem to remember that he served as acting Prime minister (Of the UK) during the War while Churchill was away.

He was also Prime minister of South Africa and there is no confusion between that and the point above..

And Finally, another Prime minister (Tony Blair), much like the rest of England - particularly those in Manchester, had this to say about George Best.

"probably the most naturally gifted footballer of his generation and one of the best footballers our country has produced,"

George Best was Irish.

So am I.

He is an Icon of English football, and as I have opined to Lizzie, English Football is Central to English culture.

Prime Minister of the UK Diane is quite an important aspect of English Culture.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 03:40 AM

I'll write Lox's next crazed post for him to save him the bother:

Britain's last Prime Minister was in a band called The Ugly Rumours and is therefore an important part of English culture.

Even though he's a bit Scottish.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 03:45 AM

I thought the thread was about English culture.

If it is now about British culture be kind enough to point out when it changed!

There are a lot of Scots - amongst others - who will point out the two are not the same.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:01 AM

There are those who seek to widen it a lot more than that: to the Humpty Dumptyism of PMs around the world, potted film reviews and football opinions (regardless of nationality of the subjects).

I recommend actually watching Priscilla Queen Of The Desert myself. Terence Stamp is very "English". And spot the anti-semitism. If you can.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 06:23 AM

"I recommend actually watching Priscilla Queen Of The Desert myself. Terence Stamp is very "English". And spot the anti-semitism. If you can."

Ok Diane, where's the post where I said anything remotely approximating that?

Link please.


The post where you suggested that Sid James isn't English because he's Jewish is in this thread.


Truth is you're in a fix ...

Either - you think sid James being a jew means he has nothing to do with English culture,

In which case you are a racist.

Or - you actually don't think that any more

In which case you would be saying that Lizzie wasn't wrong after all.


You sad case - you'd rather be cast as a bigot than give in to Lizzie.

Not that I care, but perhaps that gives us a useful insight into your ... (wait for it) ... History ... (Gasp)


Its Ok - you carry on with your Priscilla delusion and I'll return to those who merit my attention.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM

Why is Poxy-Loxy regurgitating my quotes and pretending I am quoting him? It's not yet midday on Boxing Day . . .
In a thread about the Jewish influence on folk music he objected to a song called "Hava Hangover" (I don't actually remember it but might dig out the Priscilla Queen Of The Desert vid later if I've nothing better to do). Bit pathetic really, somewhat on the lines of madlizziecornish starting this thread to enable her to say at some point that the dubious, dismal dirge called Roots is the epitome of English culture, then for someone to tell her 'no, it's a pop song' thus facilitating her flouncing off to MySpace to announce that she'll never post on Mudcat again. Again.

Maybe Poxy-Loxy might do us a favour and piss off to enjoy a bottle of Valium with her?

Jewish musicians that I know are investigating their roots according to the provenance of their ancestors (Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Ladino . . . that sort of thing). Granted, this is a relatively recent phenomenon and a turnabout from "assimilation at any cost" in an effort to become more English than the English. Some (for example Lucie Skeaping) have an interest and expertise in both their own and indigenous musics). I am course, referring to music rooted in a tradition, not to mainstream pop produced by musicians who happen to be Jewish. Leave Helen Shapiro out of it.

But to put it in perspective, these are but a tiny minority among Jews, and an infinitesmal proportion of the wider English population at large who, sadly, still do not give a toss about their own cultural roots, but might regard those of others a bit quaint, in a touristy sort of way. If their grasp of "English culture" doesn't extend beyond trashy Carry On films and being football bores, it's their loss.

And Sid James still isn't English . . .

Oh, and my history? I must, of course have been bluffing when I churned out all those anti-racist pieces in the Morning Star / Searchlight / The Leveller and so on. And I fixed it with the RUC to lock me up in Derry so I wouldn't have to write about their partisan attack on civil rights (and so on). And when I sat on the press bench through interminable public order prosecutions, I really wanted the fascists to get off. And when I revealed racist police practices when reporting on the Carib Club raid or the Islington 18, the black communities told me to stop.

Have another Valium, Poxy-Loxy.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 11:08 AM

One of Dianes quotes - Sid James was a South African Jew.

The one Lox seems to have stopped reading at - Lizzie is wrong ... and out of two reasons one is that He was Jewish

followed by a post by Lox

The post where you suggested that Sid James isn't English because he's Jewish is in this thread.

No it isn't! Just very selective chosing of quotes. If you was to quote the whole lot there would be no chance on Earth that anyone could interpret Diane as saying Sid James isn't English because he is Jewish. Even if that was said how does it make anyone a racist? Jewish is a religion, not a race.

I've completely lost track of some of the arguments here. I refer once more to point seven of my post on the 19th...

DeG

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

well said, Dave.
I cant possibly see how Diane is a racist.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 12:55 PM

I don't think Diane was actually being racist in the post involving the 1290 expulsion of the Jews from England. I suspect she was worried that Jews objected to being called English, in the same way an Irish immigrant might, as I said before. But as I also pointed out, this is not the case, and many English Jews would in fact be offended to be considered anything other than English.

Lox is right about the rest, though. Diane has painted herself into a corner, because she has a hard time admitting she is wrong about anything. So she is flailing rather desperately now, trying to suggest that a post of Lox's from the distant past invalidates his argument now.

So why was she eager to delve into the past and find the post in the first place, but unwilling to do so again and provide us with a link? Because Lox did not object to the song "ha'va hangover," at least not in the thread I saw. In fact, the entirety of Lox's post was:

"Who's seen priscilla queen of the desert?

Annoying people with headaches the morning after the night before has never been such fun.

'Ha'va hangover...etc'

(best accompanied with any detuned percussion instrument) "

It sounds to me as though Lox enjoyed the scene in question.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 01:31 PM

Flailing? flailing? Moi?

Anyone who has ever been arsed to delve into my "distant past" will be aware of my long record of anti-racist writing and campaigning, already alluded to after someone inquired about my "history".

What I did much earlier in the thread was point to two idiotic "examples" supposedly of "English culture" dragged out by madlizziecornish as exceptionally ludicrous because the persons named (Sid James and George Best) were far from being typically "English" nor were they even remotely related to "culture".

As for poxy-loxy's pathetic attempted putdown of Priscilla Queen Of The Desert, my eyes fell upon it when taking a quick look at his back catalogue to see whether his insane quest to seek out anti-semitism where none exists had a precedent. It has. Didn't take long and anyone can do the same. I'm not in the habit of providing unnecessary links all over the place. I simply identified the thread.

The fact is that this loxy-poxy person (who had not previously penetrated my consciousness) lurks mainly in the murk of the basement, picking fights, apparently, as a hobby.

Why he should have appointed himself knight on a charger to defend the indefensible madlizziecornish is distinctly odd. Why the distinctly odd Mr Winick is hanging on to his coat-tails is completely devoid of explanation. Other than that they're both at a loose end. Very loose.

Neither of them is English. Nor indeed (apparently) from this planet.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:31 PM

There is a genuinely serious subtext (in my humble), written into all the recent paranoia that has been voiced via various right wing tabloids about "overflooding with immigrants rah rah" and "wots 'appened to English culture, brilliant fish'n'chips/olden days/church bells bla bla." The simple equations of which appear to result in classic scapegoating of blame for whatever shite we're currently in, and an even more preposterous renouncing of the responsibility of the English themselves to appreciate and maintain their own cultural traditions.

Paul Burke gave an excellent summary some time back of much that has contributed to the seeming disenfranchisment of the English from their culture. Though I feel he may have not commented on what I feel is the role the promotion of decades of a rampantly capitalist "have it all, have it now!" ethos may have had overall, in inspiring the working classes in particular to "aspire to better things" and thus abandon their personal cultural heritage.

It seems to me that what Capitalism has sowed, Fascism is reaping. And that is a grumbling mumbling insecure mass of populace, who as always are inevitably looking for an anonymous 'Johnny Foriegner' to blame for their discontent. This rubbish foriegner is counterpointed by the brilliance of our own traditional English culture, which he has somehow magically spirited away. No doubt by bringing in sex and drugs and violence and total economic collapse, and other such un-English things.

Groups like the BNP are now grasping joyfully at these kinds of feelings of discontent. And this IMO, is the most seriously dangerous subtext that I read from a plethora of "English" headed threads along these lines on Mudcat. It's one I find personally unsettling.

I do however think that debate over these issues aught to at least be conducted in a relatively sensible fashion. And in a manner worthy of their profound and immediate seriousness.

This is the last comment I'll make on this thread. So no need to bother flaming - because you will win.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 07:48 PM

Nerd,

Thankyou for posting my pathetic putdown of Priscilla.

I see that nothing escapes your sharp eye.

It would have been easy to get confused by my words and read them as damning of "Priscilla", but you (you rascal) have revealed my true feelings.

I confess, as dirty and as wicked as it might make me seem, that I did in fact derive great enjoyment from the scene in question.

Oh the shame ...

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 09:23 PM

To put Lox's comment on Priscilla in further context, the thread was about Jewish influence on folk music. Therefore, his post about a movie in which a Jewish folksong is adapted to another context was not an example of random sniping, it was directly on-topic for its thread. And again, it never accused the film of anti-semitism.

To put Diane's comments in this thread in further context, first she said of Lox's post:

"it's a complaint about the 'anti-semitism' of the funniest film ever, Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert."

Not only is she wrong, she put the phrase "anti-semitism" in quotation marks, suggesting it was a direct quote from Lox. This is misleading in the extreme, as Lox does not allege anti-semitism in the post at all.

Later, Diane repeats the claim that the post was a "quest to seek out anti-semitism where none exists." As I pointed out, it is no such thing, and nowhere alleges anti-semitism in the film. It merely points out the scene as a "fun" moment in which one character annoys another with an adaptation of a Jewish folksong.

Finally, Diane defends herself for not providing a link (which would have made these deceptions plain), by saying "I simply identified the thread."

In fact, she didn't identify the thread. I had to search on "Lox" and "Priscilla Queen of the Desert" to find it.

I defended Lox because, after Diane attacked him, I was interested to see what he had said about Priscilla. Investigating, I found that Diane was misquoting him. So in short, Diane is up to her old tricks, being deceitful and rude, bringing up people's personal lives and their real names when this is a breach of what used to be called 'netiquette," and making up false histories about other 'Catters.

I haven't really defended Lizzie in particular, though I think she has the same rights as anybody here. I merely wanted to point out, from the perspective of someone with a large family of English Jews, that English Jews consider themselves English, and consider much of their culture to be English culture. Otherwise, as Diane says, I am not myself English, so I prefer to see what others have to say.

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 09:27 PM

Diane,

Thanks for the cv.

So you are an opinionated journalist?

I hope your published articles are better researched.

You went in search of dirt on me.

And you found this

You confidently wrote:

(Imagine voice of Miss Marple)

"my eyes fell upon it when taking a quick look at his back catalogue to see whether his insane quest to seek out anti-semitism where none exists had a precedent. It has. Didn't take long and anyone can do the same. I'm not in the habit of providing unnecessary links all over the place. I simply identified the thread."


My My ... seeking things out where they don't exist eh? ... who needs a valium ...


And thanks for the offer of drugs, but reading your clumsily written attempts to verbally intimidate me are enough to give me the giggles for a week without them.

Besides which, your little psychotic episode would be enough to deter the most hardened addict from doing drugs ever again.

Go easy on the coke hun   ;-)      ROFL

Subject: RE: English Culture - What is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 09:39 PM

Sigh.

400?

Don Firth