BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater

Subject: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:30 AM

Here is a quick introduction of Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

I have seen a long documentary on Blackwater on Comcast cable.

Deploying these troops with the authority to kill on sight within the USA is disturbing. THey got these guys into NEw Orleans when they could not get drinking water in.

Posse Comitas is moot.

Ceasar has brought troops into Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

"They got these guys into New Orleans when they could not get drinking water in."

... and you wonder why the rest of the world worries about the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

THere is a new book out on the subject and the author --Jeremy Scahill--- was a 1 hour interviewee on Fresh Air (NPR) today---frightening. They feel they are above the law and are now in the midst of some huge lawsuits that, so far, has been going against them.   They are being represented by some of the highest paid legal guns around---Ken Starr and the original main attorney is now GWB's WHite House Counsel.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:04 PM

The National Geographic channel is doing a show on them now.
Of course they are portrayed as heros.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:08 PM

They are above the law. They are not subject to military law. They have no accountability for their actions.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

There an excerpt from the book HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:25 PM

...and why would a young man enlist when he can work for Blackwater?

This will be the end of the military as we now know it. There is no accountability to taxpayers since they are a private company. There are no laws or conventions that apply to them. This is, as the video says, another huge step toward privitization.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:34 PM

Blackwater USA is a very patriotic militia...if you have enough money.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:59 PM

CBC 'dispatches' did a story on Blackwater recruiting all over the world
(its much cheaper) such as in Fiji they only pay a fraction of what theyd have to pay a Briton or American.
however the Fijians who served complained they didnt get paid anywhere near as promised (and were told to complain to the Head office in ENgland). Although a number of Fijians have been killed in Iraq no familys in Fiji have received any death compensation (I believe $100,00 ) Blackwater argued that all those who died switched to another security company thereby voiding the contract- they just bring the body back home to the family.

one Fijian who was on the list to go to Afghanistan, told the cbc reporter he was going to get paid in UK pounds, 60 a month 'is that good? he asked the reporter..

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:34 AM

please delete this thread

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

Donuel - Why do you want this thread deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM

And if they run out of something to do, they can just start a war someplace. Shoot an ayatolla in Iran or something.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM

I have been starting too durn many threads of late.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 07:45 AM

"Although a number of Fijians have been killed in Iraq no familys in Fiji have received any death compensation (I believe $100,00 ) Blackwater argued that all those who died switched to another security company thereby voiding the contract- they just bring the body back home to the family."

          That's a good way to keep labor costs down. Just run two sets of payroll records, and when somebody gets knocked-off, tell the family they were working for the other company.

          It's almost as effective as naturalizing a bunch of illegal aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:04 AM

Interesting that Blackwater was started by a conservative Christian. Obviously 'Thou shalt not kill.' wasn't in his Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:07 AM

And some cynical bastards detect the faint smell of hyprocracy...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:38 AM

No whining!
No snivelling!
No constitutional rights demands!
No workplace safety rules!
No refusal of orders!

NO PROBLEMS!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

Privatising the army is a good first step. Now how about we outsource the Executive branch of the government. I'm pretty sure that some Malaysian kid could do the job a lot cheaper--and certainly no worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 10:26 AM

And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members. That way the government could get them for rock bottom prices, they wouldn't have to pay payroll taxes on them, and it they didn't do exactly what the Malaysian kid told them to do, he could threaten them with deportation.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath (upon the 'green')
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 04:19 PM

Why did they choose the name "Blackwater" isn't that another name for malaria, "blackwater fever"? What I understood was the ultra conservative Xtian (it works for Xmas, don't it?) is still running the show.

If we had enough money could we hire them to throw Bush and company out?

Just a thought.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:01 PM

"And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members."

Area 51, Roswell, it's already happened. -:)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:10 PM

Well, Like Donuel, I hardly have time to get sucked into another thread but...

Okay, first of all, when we look at US loses, add another 400 deaths and couple thousand injured when throwing in the "privatized" component of the Iraq War...

Problem with fightin' wars with the "Blackwaters" of the corporate world is:

1. They aren't sufficiently equipped...

2. They don't know jack about ineternational law...

3. and when one of their employees is injured there is absolutelt no protection that theat person will get the treatment afforded a ***real*** combat vet...

Yeah, privatization is not only costly to the tax payer and redundant but a bad trick paid to anyone hurt in ***playin' war*** in a ***real war***....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:44 AM

The 'private army' (as distinct from an army of privates!) was supposed to have been 'created' because it was allegedly cheaper than the real army. But that claim has been proved to be a lie (ok the grunts get paid less, but the taxpayer pays more per grunt, so somebody is profiteering!) so perhaps the real reason is far more sinister.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:47 AM

Also there are the spoils to consider.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:52 AM

Hey I think I found the loophole - thanks to Azizi in another thread...



Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution outlines the powers of Congress:

...

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


~~~~~~



"grant letters of marque" - isn't that effectively what Blackwater has?


:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:56 AM

"'And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members.'"

"Area 51, Roswell, it's already happened. -:)"



       What planet did Alberto Gonzales come from?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

These people are basically security guards with a delusion of grandeur. They are not an army, shadow or otherwise. Employing them as bodyguards, for which I assume they are trained, frees up soldiers to do what soldiers do...and soldiers are not trained as bodyguards.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM

I was thinking the same thing, Art. Security guards is one of the fastest growing occupations in North America and its only a hop, skip and a jump to becoming a member of a private militia.

Why don't they just train inmates and send them over to fight? Actually, as I recall, during the VietNam war, many young men were given the choice between jail time and enlisting. Why not make enlisting part of the conditions of parole? It would save money on housing prisoners, too.

Oops, sorry I mentioned it, thats probably next.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:58 PM

That and degrees in Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

Whether they call them security guards or what, they get paid many times what an American soldier could hope to make, and they seem to have all the modern weaponry that any up to date army has.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:29 AM

"These people are basically security guards with a delusion of grandeur".
Properly designated as the 1st Special Service Force, the Devil's Brigade was a joint World War II American-Canadian commando unit trained at Fort Harrison near Helena, Montana in the United States. Many modern American and Canadian Special Forces units trace their heritage to this unit.

What you get at Blackwater today, are former members of these units. As for their training, I would suggest that with many of the "security guards" being former Green Berets, Rangers, Navy Seals, they've had the best training money can buy.

We just called them mercenaries in the past!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

Before that they were just called 'guns for hire'.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

"Have gun, will travel".

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

That was Paladin. He was a West Point grad. And look at his chosen profession after the Civil War!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: number 6
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

Was he a West Point grad? ... I never knew that .... it wasn't on his business card.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:26 PM

From the same folks that gave us the minings of the harbors in Nicaragua. Mercenaries is what they're still called. They network & recruit within the ex special forces. They take these wacko's like my brother who couldn't find work in the public sector as a small arms & an underwater demolition's expert (ex-seal). We'll give you a career is what they promise. They train these guys for jobs that they can't use once they're out so where else do they go where they can make good money. We outsource them of course. Criminal, if you ask me & I don't care if you didn't ask.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

It's kinda hard to apply for jobs in civilian life after that kind of training.

"And what are your skills, sir?"

"Well, I can field strip and shoot most automatic weapons with an accuracy of over 98%. I am able to use Semtex, dynamite, C4, and I'm able to kill silently and effectively with a maximum of haste."

"Oh. I'm afraid we have nothing open at this time, but I understand that there will be openings in the Sudan, if you don't mind working for mass murderers. Please call back during the next oil slump and I'm sure we'll be able to find a position for you."

"Thank you. I will do that."

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:44 PM

"Would you like fries with that?"

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: heric
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Some law firms might like that if he went back to school.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:58 PM

Go back to school, he's 57, hasn't held a steady job in decades & his relationships fair far worst. He wasn't a waste before hand but he been one ever since he came back, not that he really ever did fully come back.
So much for follow up, weither it be as a mercenaries or a soldier.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: heric
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:05 AM

I'm sorry about that, Mr. Finn. So many people have paid and continue pay a very real price.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:27 AM

I know. The shame is that we've been down the same road before & still haven't learned anything. It would be easier if the tragedies provided a lesson that would avoid repeating future tragedies, that's where the bitterness & anger occur.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM

Barry, my remarks were not meant to be flippant (in case they seemed that way to you). Many of the Commando fellows from WWII came back and much the same faced them.

I think most people will never realize the re-conditioning that needs to happen to produce a top-notch special forces troop. Then bringing him back from very dangerous, high-stress operations and expecting he will just slide back into a civilian life he never really had to begin with is unrealistic. Wartime takes one toll. Peacetime takes the other. Pretty soon, a guy ain't got much fuel left.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:07 AM

Hi Peace, I didn't take it as being flip at all, more close to the truth than one would want or care to be.
With my brother he was first a sub mariner & was with all his sub school mates (on the USS Scoripion) he signed on for special forces & was in seal training when the Scoripion went down with all hands, everyone he served with, schooled with & the only friends he had up till then. He told me once that he should be with them & never spoke of the war again. Clearly he was a canidate for follow up care but instead he was sought out for his underwater abilities that he couldn't sell on shore & to the public. I'm leaving this thread in tears thinking about the hman waste war produces.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 03:44 AM

Barry - This sounds exactly like my brother:

"...hasn't held a steady job in decades & his relationships fair far worst. He wasn't a waste before hand but he been one ever since he came back, not that he really ever did fully come back."

He is also 57. Hasn't been able to find too many jobs that require a sharpshooter with depression and a lack of impulse control. Before VietNam he was a sweet, shy, eighteen year old who was a sensitive brother and son. The Marines changed that in a hurry!

Its tragic because it effects the whole family. My mother is 83 and she's still dealing with him. He thinks he is taking care of her but we know that she is keeping him off the streets and out of jail. We are powerless to do anything but cope with a sad situation.

Blackwater is even worse. They take no responsibility for their employees and if the families attempt to find out how and why their loved ones were killed, they point to the U.S. and say they are only a part of the allied command. No accountability what-so-ever!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:21 AM

So if Wal-Mart decides to invade Denmark, they could just hire Blackwater and invade. They've got the bucks, and Blackwater is for sale to the highest bidder. So who's to stop them?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:29 PM

Well, this is how you completely evade the normal responsibility of a government to be accountable for what the military does at home or abroad. You just hire it out to private contractors and use mercenaries. It's unofficial and it's mostly unnoticed, except by the people it directly affects. Boy, how the Iraqis must hate these guys by now...and by extension, how they must hate the USA by now.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

I guess I could look it up, but I think it was Wellington who found it particularly abhorrent that Colonialists would stoop so low as to have snipers with their Kentucky Long Rifles hide in trees and pick off English Officers. War is no longer fought with honour, although there are honourable service men and women. I'd just as soon have that looney tune we trained to kill 132 different ways hang around and do the dirty things that have to be done. As opposed to the kid who was just looking for a college education.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

"I'd just as soon have that looney tune we trained to kill 132 different ways hang around and do the dirty things that have to be done."

          There are those who would argue that the only reason "the dirty things have to be done" is because we want to rip-off somebody eles's resources and exploit them for our own pruposes.

          However, Wellington and Washington were both military commanders representing governments. Now we have corporations like Haliburton(sp?), who just moved its headquarters out of the US, hiring Blackwater to conduct military operations for its own purposes. In the case of Iraq and Hurricane Katrina, these forces are being used to generate profit for their employer(s) at the expense of the American taxpayer.
          And the American taxpayer has to wait four years in order to get rid of the buffoon who hired them in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:02 PM

Only another year and a half. But that will still leave Halliburton and other corporate powers that are stronger economically than many countries in the world. Economic strength means they can hire people to get their work done for 'em. The Neocons are winning, and we still have people who think Neocons are just another fraternal organization. Sometimes the human race is too stupid for its own good.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 02:00 AM

Well, 3refs, I don't know why Wellington would have found colonial snipers offensive, because Wellington himself when he was fighting the French in Spain used very effective units of rifle-bearing marksmen dressed in green who were great at picking off enemy officers and using guerilla warfare tactics. They had rifled guns that were good for long range sniping.

And the other thing that occurs to me is...it's the Americans and British and other coalition troops who are analogous to the British troops in 1776. You guys are the foreigners who are occuping a distant land against the will of many of its people, and it is the people who were born there who are fighting a guerrilla war (and a civil war too) against the occupying army and against each other...which is what the colonists were doing in the American revolution. Loyalists were fighting against revolutionaries. Revolutionaries were fighting against loyalists and British.

Troops like Blackwater employs are similar to mercenaries of any age. They do it primarily for the money.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM

someone already mentioned Jeremy Scahills book,
here is a link blackwaterbook

he mentioned when he was interviewing a cop in new orleans
an unlicensed car sped up, four guys with machine guns jumped out and
asked the cop something and sped off.. Turns out when he talked to these guys later they were Blackwater guys, and they were deputized by the governor to maintain order (in their words they were there to shoot looters).

Blackwater was charging $950 US per day, per person.. and yet there was a lot of flack about the measly Fema $2000 debit cards people received being a waste of money. (in fact they were the most useful expenditure)

according to Scahills interview theres something like 40,000 Blackwater guys in Iraq, providing security and yet they are answerable to no laws since they are not part of the military
(on one occasion when Bremer tried to arrest on of Al Sadrs deputies in 04, you had a situation when a marine guard in Najaf was asking a Blackwater guy for permission to open fire)

whatever the laws that may be in Iraq, they havent been enforced.
So far with so many Blackwater guys in Iraq, only one has been charged with knifing another Blackwater employee, theyre either a bunch of ANgels or something stinks.

private armies, (no need to worry about the political ramifications of having a draft) secretive and answerable to no-one.

war - what is it good for?
its good for business.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 02:59 PM

Maybe if you have to hire 40,000 mercenaries, its not a war that should be fought on behalf of a nation.

Maybe its a war on behalf of big business and the taxpayers are paying big money for soldiers who are not their own.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:23 PM

" theres something like 40,000 Blackwater guys in Iraq, "

Where does that number come from? I think I need to invest, if it is true!




http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:41 PM

I'm sure they won't refuse your money, BB. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:20 PM

"I'm sure they won't refuse your money, BB. ;-) "


As long as you don't want it back, BB - you see they got this large lot of guys with guns to protect it...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:33 PM

actually according to Scahill at the end of 2006 theres something like
100,000 contractors in Iraq (48,000 are private soldiers)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 02:33 AM

Wonderful what money can do, isn't it? Who needs public support anymore to enlarge a war?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 03:35 AM

Can you say "WARLORDS"?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

LH--It seems to me that the larger problem is, the mercenaries are really in a position in Iraq to expand the war, and/or provoke a war with Iran, and the American taxpayer can't do anything other than continue to pay for whatever they choose to do.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:27 PM

Correct. It is criminality and illegality on a massive scale...done through private industry, with the collusion of elected officials.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:30 PM

Riginslinger - Thats it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:35 PM

Remember this thread? That was three years ago. Talk about politicians sitting on their butts! Why has this been allowed to continue at taxpayer expense?

Subject: BS: 'Private Contractors'? I think not
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:26 PM

"The most interesting aspect of the American media reporting about Fallujah murders of 4 Americans this week, was the insistence amongst the Pentagon and White House reporters that the victims were "private security contractors".

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 05:04 PM

The rest of the world knows about Blackwater and CACI. They are no secret to militant Islamic factions who recognize the private mercenaries by beheading them and dragging their bodies through the streets.

The American people seem to be the only national body that doesn't know about them.

They are not representatives of the government as are the military. They are as private mercenaries anti-democratic because they represent a minority of weathy business interests. (Oil) They are Bush's Praetorian Guard (as Scahill suggests).

To call them an "army" as has been stated is a misnomer. They are paid assassins.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

Stringsinger, what makes you think that Americans don't know about Blackwater? They are on the news all the time, after all.

And, btw, they are security guards. They do not work for "a minority of weathy (sic) business interests," but rather for anyone who wants to hire them, including members of the Iraqi government and nongovernmental organizations in Iraq.   Please provide your documented source for the statement that they are assassins.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 07:29 PM

of the 100,000 or so Blackwater security guards in Iraq.
how many have been charged with any crimes towards Iraqis?
zero.
so theyre all either a bunch of angels or something stinks.
and I dont believe theyve never opened fire either..

in Najaf in 2004 when Bremer tried to crack down on Al Sadr and hugely miscalculated the response - you had a situation when a US marine was asking a Blackwater guy for permission to open fire on the crowd (which was granted)

they are certainly not being prosecuted either under Iraqi laws, or US martial law.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:34 PM

Bombs Iran.
Declares Martial Law.
Declares no need for a Presidential Election in 2008.
Robs Treasury to pay for his own personal army.
Marches disenters to concentration camps.
The Final Solution.

I must be dreaming.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

Following is an up-to-date State Department list 5 of 27 further known security firms working in Iraq:

AD Consultancy (which firm?) (UK)
AKE Ltd (UK)
BAGHDAD FIRE AND SECURITY (IRAQ)
ARMOR GROUP (in Mosul, Baghdad, Basra) (UK)
CONTROL RISKS GROUP (Baghdad) (UK)
CUSTER BATTLES (now being investigated) (US)
DEHDARI GENERAL TRADING & CONTRACTING EST.(KUWAIT)
DILIGENCE MIDDLE EAST (US)
GENRIC (outside Basra) (UK)
GLOBAL MIDDLE EAST RISK STRATEGIES (originally a firm based in UK, known as Global Risk Strategies) (Dubai,UAE)
GROUP 4 FALCK A/S (INDIA)
HENDERSON RISK LTD (UK)
HILL AND ASSOCIATES (HONG KONG)
ICP (employees are only either former British and US Special Forces or Elite Forces personnel. (UK)
ISI (Baghdad Conference Palace: ("the only security company to provide 24 hour Iraqi security guards to the CPA "Green Zone". All guards are trained by the U.S. army … ISI's senior management includes experienced military personnel mostly ex-special forces from both the US and UK.") (IRAQ)
METEORIC TACTICAL SOLUTIONS (S. AFRICA)
MEYER & ASSOCIATES, (TEXAS, US)
OLIVE SECURITY LTD (UK)
OPTIMAL SOLUTION SERVICES (AUSTRALIA)
OVERSEAS SECURITY AND STRATEGIC INFORMATION, INC/SAFENET-IRAQ (US)
RAMOPS RISK MANAGEMENT GROUP (comprised of US special operations and military intelligence professionals.) (US)
SOG-SMG INC. (US)
SUMER INTERNATIONAL SECURITY (trained by DYNCORP. INT; (IRAQ)
TOR INTERNATIONAL (former SAS and Special Forces staff) (UK)
TRIPLE CANOPY (more than 20 years in the most elite military Special Operations units) (US)
UNITY RESOURCES GROUP (Middle East) LLC. (security professionals drawn from the Special Forces and Police SWAT communities of the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and Europe. (Dubai, UAE)
WADE-BOYD & ASSOCIATES (US)

from the www

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 10:14 PM

Video here ya might wanna watch.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:23 PM

"'And, btw, they are security guards. They do not work for "a minority of weathy (sic) business interests," but rather for anyone who wants to hire them, including members of the Iraqi government and nongovernmental organizations in Iraq.   Please provide your documented source for the statement that they are assassins.'"

       These folks are going to want a lot of money, so who is in a position to hire them? Not our local grocery clerk, or even Joe's Backhoe Service. It could only by "a minority of wealthy business interests," and that is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:37 PM

I'd be interested to know which, "nongovernmental organizations in Iraq," have hired Blackwater employees. That makes the situation even more frightening.

Do you suppose Iran or Syria could hire Blackwater personnel?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:59 AM

Why Not?

You know what happened in 15C Italy? Everybody hired English mercenaries (the best of course - especially with those killer long bows!), and eventually all the different gangs of mercenaries began to not actually fight the battles, but to 'sell the victory' to the highest bidder - seems smart to me - why get killed?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:35 AM

Dianavan, Blackwater's web site says that they provide services to NGOs. Outside of the Blogosphere (which, imho, is just someone else with an opinion) I could not find creditable mention of a specific client. Not the sort of thing that, for example, Doctors Without Borders (and I am not saying they are a client) would brag about.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:14 PM

I would want the people doing the hard work to be 'safe', but still I would object seriously to Blackwater syphoning off large amounts of cash from organisations like The Red Cross.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 11:56 PM

Just out of curiosity--do the DOD figures on casualties include Blackwater casualties?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:54 AM

"Just out of curiosity--do the DOD figures on casualties include Blackwater casualties?"

I would hope not! Isn't that why you get paid the big cash when you work under the table. No taxes either, I'd bet, no workers comp, no SS, no health & welfare. No OSHA looking over their shoulders, no accountability. I'd say that they deserve not a penny extra & that Blackwater has some Labor Dept. issues, too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:09 AM

Blackwater deaths and their wounded do not count in a number ways. No compensation for the families, no embarassing statistics for the U.S. military and no standards for equipment, vehicles or armament. Wages vary depending on what country you are from. Phillipinos and Fijians are paid less than Americans. You get the picture.

I wonder if they get the civilian version of the purple heart?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:43 AM

Wasn't there a recent fuss about that?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:03 AM

Dick,

Something I read said that Blackwater casualties do NOT count as part of the DOD total.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM

From time to time, I have seen separate figures for "contractors" and I'd assume that employees of the security firms like Blackwater are included in these, along with Kuwaiti truck drivers and Filipino cooks.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:30 PM

Seems that the way to avoid having any American troops killed is to farm the whole damned fiasco to the mercenaries.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:34 PM

AS I said before, Dick... :-)

"Why Not?

You know what happened in 15C Italy? Everybody hired English mercenaries (the best of course - especially with those killer long bows!), and eventually all the different gangs of mercenaries began to not actually fight the battles, but to 'sell the victory' to the highest bidder - seems smart to me - why get killed? "

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:41 PM

These things should be decided by the leaders of the countries that want to have a war. They each slit their own throats. The last one to die is the winner.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:58 PM

Sounds awfully like some of those Japanese 'Martial Arts' movies, Peace...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:59 PM

You say that like it's a BAD thing . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:17 PM

Actually the local Bris 31 Community Channel has a 'Schlock Movie' segment. They don't get their program published by the paper, so you never know what is on, and if you miss the opening titles, you never know what movie you are watching. That's sorta like watching Politics in the Real World anyway, so I'm used to it... :-)

Well, last night I tuned in and it was a "Bruce Li" - yeah, a parody of a "Bruce Lee" .... and he was up against many opponents, James Bond, the Exorcist, The Godfather, some Vampire, some sex mad female attempting to assassinate the Emperor with her over active ****, you get the idea... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:29 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM

Look Peace, I'm not making this up, you know!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

One night in 1966 a friend gave me a--well, I just mixed it in the coffee and next thing I knew this telephone pole walked away. I was mildly amazed by that, but before I knew it the D train arrived and whooooosh, there we were in Central Park and the park bench melted for no reason at all. When the horse told us to move along I asked the cop if he was aware he was riding Mr Ed. It's a long story and not at all like the movie, but I think you'll understand.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:23 AM

"the D train"

You musta slept thru "the A train" and "the B train" then...

and I thought you liked music...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:33 AM

The dark blue line from West 4th to 59 St. Remember it like yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM

Must be a pretty cool hip place with all those "Way Out" signs, man...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM

Like, uh, I hear ya man.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:25 AM

In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the key chain
And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D" train
We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight
Ask himself if it's him or them that's really insane
Louise, she's all right, she's just near
She's delicate and seems like the mirror
But she just makes it all too concise and too clear
That Johanna's not here
The ghost of 'lectricity howls in the bones of her face
Where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:19 AM

Dang, I LOVE that song.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

Title please - never heard of it before...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:25 AM

"Visions of Johanna" by Bob Dylan

Ain't it just like the night to play tricks when you're tryin' to be so quiet?
We sit here stranded, though we're all doin' our best to deny it
And Louise holds a handful of rain, temptin' you to defy it
Lights flicker from the opposite loft
In this room the heat pipes just cough
The country music station plays soft
But there's nothing, really nothing to turn off
Just Louise and her lover so entwined
And these visions of Johanna that conquer my mind

In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the key chain
And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D" train
We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight
Ask himself if it's him or them that's really insane
Louise, she's all right, she's just near
She's delicate and seems like the mirror
But she just makes it all too concise and too clear
That Johanna's not here
The ghost of 'lectricity howls in the bones of her face
Where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place

Now, little boy lost, he takes himself so seriously
He brags of his misery, he likes to live dangerously
And when bringing her name up
He speaks of a farewell kiss to me
He's sure got a lotta gall to be so useless and all
Muttering small talk at the wall while I'm in the hall
How can I explain?
Oh, it's so hard to get on
And these visions of Johanna, they kept me up past the dawn

Inside the museums, Infinity goes up on trial
Voices echo this is what salvation must be like after a while
But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues
You can tell by the way she smiles
See the primitive wallflower freeze
When the jelly-faced women all sneeze
Hear the one with the mustache say, "Jeeze
I can't find my knees"
Oh, jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule
But these visions of Johanna, they make it all seem so cruel

The peddler now speaks to the countess who's pretending to care for him
Sayin', "Name me someone that's not a parasite and I'll go out and say a prayer for him"
But like Louise always says
"Ya can't look at much, can ya man?"
As she, herself, prepares for him
And Madonna, she still has not showed
We see this empty cage now corrode
Where her cape of the stage once had flowed
The fiddler, he now steps to the road
He writes ev'rything's been returned which was owed
On the back of the fish truck that loads
While my conscience explodes
The harmonicas play the skeleton keys and the rain
And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain

Copyright © 1966; renewed 1994 Dwarf Music

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

Ok I confess - I never listened to ALL his stuff - anybody got a bridge I can borrow? You can have it back later - I only want to use it once...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,Coloratura
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM

wot?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,Tre
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:04 AM

YIKES!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:46 AM

Peace-

Thanks for the list of contractors operating in Iraq. It does clarify that Blackwater is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

I think this story has real legs.

The U.S. Government gets essential help from these mercenaries while avoiding some of the responsibilities.

The individuals who work for these companies get well paid as long as they don't get injured or killed. The managers of these companies are the ones who really make out like bandits, padding their expenses, and depositing their profits in tax sheltered accounts.

Custer is only one of theses new companies that is being investigated for fraud at all levels.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

"The U.S. Government gets essential help from these mercenaries while avoiding some of the responsibilities."

      But not without giving up some of their control. And what happens when mulit-national corporations are in a position to out-bid governments for their services?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:07 PM

It would be helpful to google Erik Prince. He is the billionaire who founded Blackwater and has close ties to Focus on the Family and many evangelical right-wing-nuts. He also runs a farm community in California that sells their product through organic health food stores.

This guy is probably a closet (if not overt) Christian Nationalist and if you don't know what that is, please google it and find out. They intend to overthrow our system of government with a Christian biblical theocracy.

Chris Hedges has information on this as well. As Americans, you should be alarmed.

These mercenaries are dangerous.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:28 PM

Ya Frank, these types are starting to become a world wide problem, if not treat. A bible or holy book in one hand & gun belt & automatic in the other. And it seems a well loaded bank account backing them up too. Money, religon & firearms, what a mixed messsage for a better world!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

I saw a thing on the History Channel yesterday about Blackwater. They have their own laboratories and proving grounds, and they are actively developing weapons to market to military organizations around the world.
             At the very least, they certainly must be better armed than the average American soldier.