BS: Car bombs defused in london

Subject: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

Two car bombs found in West End

Second bomb found in London

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 07:43 PM

Mercedes
they must have lots of $

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

I would imagine they were stolen cars. That was generally the case when it was the IRA doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:03 PM

the first bomb might not have been found if the Merc was parked legally. It was left where it was to cause maximum deaths & disruption.

sandra


I remember a prison escapee caught several decades back cos he drove into an office building to park (why pay money if ya can get a park for free?) Trouble was he parked in a spot owned by Federal Police who traced the car, saw it was stolen, and waited for the driver to come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:58 PM

My wife tells me that a guy broke into a house in DC, outside of which was parked a car clearly labeled: Police -- Executive Protection Service. (These are the guys who protect visiting heads of state and such folks.)

The cop ordered the intruder to stop and put up his hands, the guy pulled a weapon, the cop shot him dead.

About the London carbombs: I'm very, very glad they were found and rendered harmless. I hope that whoever planted them is caught and get what they so richly deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 11:36 PM

I'm very proud of the people who spotted the suspicious cars and of the police officers who dismantled them. Such courage!

I do wish that when the authorities urge people to report anything suspicious that they would give some suggestions as to what's suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:04 AM

I now wait eagerly for Froth/bemused/dreaded GUEST explaining to us that these bombs are the Bilderbergers' and the Illuminatis' present delivered by MIx or CIA for Brown taking over from Blair. This present will make it easier for Brown to steer Britain into the fascist globalisation course his puppet masters have preplanned.

Little Hawk will then tell us that he is fed up with a particular type of jokes and that it is just a matter of personal preference which of several conspiracy theories one chooses to follow.

For those who don't understand my contribution but would like to, read this thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:22 AM

I also hope the perpetrators are caught and put out of action promptly.
There are countries in the world, which will watch in envy that there is a realistic prospect of that happening. We are in danger, but we are in very much less danger than many other countries. It is up to us to keep it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

Just as with the liquid explosives on air liners scare, the device would not have worked as advertised. Although some injury or death might have occured, the hundreds being spoken of were impossible. No oxydizer was provided. Are the police ignorant or just stupid? Or are our governments trying to manipulate us?

Air/gas explosions can be remarkably powerful. They're also damned tricky to pull off.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM

Seems the devices were very basic in design ...2 gas canisters ...can of petrol...box of nails...no word so far of a detonator.

In fact the traffic people had time to tow one vehicle to the car pound before discovering the bomb.

Looks like another one of Blair's "legacies", just like 21/7 and 7/7.and they have the gall to say the UK is not in more danger after Iraq!!
Our society is badly broken...and we've got to start looking at our "ethnic community ghettos" and working out how our foreign policy impacts on them.

The cosy idea of multiculturalism as the panacea for all our problems does not work. Time to start being more pro-active, trying to understand why there is hatred against a global system which wishes to wipe out every other culture.

If we cannot start using our brains instead of our WMD's, then the future looks very bleak...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM

One of the cars was discovered when an ambulance driver passing by noticed it was smoking and reported it to the police. Three suspects are being sought which is making London nervous about a third car (according to news reports anyway)..

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:05 PM

I don't imagine the authorities are going to explain to the would-be bombers just what mistakes they made in detonators, thus helping them get it right next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:14 PM

Let us all be very glad that danger was averted this time. The fact that there was a will to cause huge amounts of misery should be the wake up call in itself. If the will is there, you can always learn how to do it "better". Of course we have to nick the people, who did it this time. However, if we do not recognise that there are people out there, who feel that way about us - and do something about those grievances - a really horrible disaster is only a matter of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

It's good that no one was hurt. But we should all remember that it's one thing to deal with real terrorists and another to deal with half assed young thugs who don't have a clue. The difference lies in the extent of nte danger. Catch them and lock them up, certainly, but let's not over react.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:20 PM

So what's a real terrorist? Is there some kind of formal qualification these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:29 PM

Yeah. Graduation ceremonies and everything. You get a BT degree.

I also noted that neither oxydizers nor detonators were mentioned. I just assumed that the cops are keeping some things to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:54 PM

Today a blazing Jeep rammed the front entrance of Glasgow Airport.
The airport has been closed until futher notice.
Two men of "Asian" appearance have been detained by police.

Mr Blair may be gone, but he has certainly left his mark on this society. The war on terror has come home to roost.

Blair is off to take up his job as "peace envoy" to the Middle East (don't laugh its not a joke), leaving the gang of sycophants who supported him in his lunacy still in government.

Thanks christ we'll be free of them in a few years.
An independent Scotland will no longer have to sacrifice its children for imperialist glory...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 05:54 PM

I seem to remember quite a few bombs in London from very many sources long before Blair took over, Akenaton. And there will doubtless be plenty more after he's gone.Some people get their kicks by mutilating their fellows, that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:15 PM

Kicks? I doubt if that's what is involved. They get into a way of thinking in which "The Cause" is all that matters, and human suffering is just irrelevant. It's a pretty common way of thinking in fact, one way or another. "The Cause" varies, and so does the weaponry. The human suffering is the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 06:26 PM

Hi Greg..hope you're doin' well.

The Irish bombs were the consequences of the actions of successive UK governments and have achieved the intended result.
The same result could have been achieved without the loss of life by diplomatic means if Britain had the will.

The latest actions on 21/7, 7/7, and the London and Glasgow car bombs can be laid directly at Tony Blair's door. He pushed hard to convince the sheep in his party and in the country, that the war would make us safer....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Mickey191
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 07:13 PM

Just on the news: It was reported by a Mrs. Kennedy (Scottish Lady) that after the car exploded one of the men poured gasoline under the car & then on himself. To quote the lady: "He seemed to be enjoying himself." He is now in hospital & the other arrested.
This lunacy in the name of their God is incomprehensible. I don't know how they can be stopped. One or two at a time I guess. If these acts are committed by small cells, on the wing, it will indeed be one or two at a time. It seems hopeless to me.

Anyone have a better outlook then mine?

I do hope tomorrows tribute to Lady Di will go on without a hitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 07:26 PM

The cars reportedly contained propane, butane and petrol, plus roofing nails. That will explode well enough to satisfy most people.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 12:28 AM

Sorry to be totally selfish but my 'baby' - my 18 year old son - is 'bumming around ' England as we speak ----- hope he and every other human being stays away from such things

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:26 AM

A young friend of mine was in Glasgow Airport just inside the entrance when the car hit....Thankfully she is unhurt...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM

Blair`s legacy of lies has come back to haunt Britain, thousands of Iraqi and Afghan lives have been destroyed by Blair and his war criminal chum Bush, and all of this to make the world a safer place?, it hasn`t happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:17 PM

Mr Blair may be gone, but he has certainly left his mark on this society. The war on terror has come home to roost.

Akenaton and similar lines by Ard Mhacha.

I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology

from this comment in the GUARDIAN by a fromer muslim jihadi.

A quip often ascribed to Lenin but probably not by him comes to mind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:46 PM

Now that Afghanistan is not available for them to train and perfect their techniques of mass murder, the attacks have become cruder and more amateurish.
The attacks on the West started before Gulf war one, each one more ambitious than the last, until 9/11.
Does anyone think they would ever have said, the West has suffered enough, let us reduce the scale of our attacks.
The Aghanistan operation, though poorly supported and often botched, has reduced their ability to commit mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

Afghanistan like Iraq is a complete shambles.

The main organ of Conservatism in the UK carries this article by one of the shrewest commentators around Simon Jenkins

Please read this

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:30 PM

Wolfgang..do you really think "Islamic Theology" can be defeated by guns, bombs, air strikes and the inevitable deaths of women and children?

Years ago I said on this forum that the answer must come from within Islam, and was taunted by Teribus and others for saying it.
I still believe that this is the only answer. We must step back and allow Islam to cure itself. By the indiscriminate slaughter of Muslems we only create more and more fundamentalists.

Perhaps this is a cultural "fight to the death" if so then our days are numbered as we have not the will or the faith to lay down our lives for a spiritually bankrupt system...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:37 PM

I read the article, Ake, and mostly agree. But Wolfgang's link provides some food for thought, too. Islam--like many other religions--has become corrupt and basically eveil. That is not from the grassroots of the religion, but rather from the top down. Average people living in Muslim countries really don't dare voice their criticisms because that's a sure way to meet Allah real quick. Hell, it was no joy to be Jewish during The Inquisition, and being a Roman Catholic in Fundamentalist parts of the USA and Canada is not fun, either. Most people just want to worship their respective God/god/gods and get on with their lives in something that resembles peacefulness. People don't read their religious tracts anymore--unless they are looking for a line they can use. The spirit of the various good books have been so perverted by 'religious leaders' that they are worth the paper they are printed on and not much more. A pox on all their houses.

Trust you are doing well my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM

One to one cause and effect rarely applies in the real world. Events have multiple causes, and that includes the event of adopting a fanatical ideology.

Sure it's a fallacy to identify one particular factor, such as the Iraq War, and say that's the sole cause of bombs in London, and ignore a whole set of other ideological factors. But it's equally fallacious to do the same for other factors, such as those young Hassan focused on in that article Wolfgang linked to there, and dismiss the importance of, for example the war.

What moves people into crazy action tends to be a combination of facts on the ground and ideology. That applies to left-wing terrorism, it applied to the IRA, it applies to the jihadis.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 06:16 PM

Before the war number of muslim attacks in UK ...Nil
Since the war Number of attacks in uk???
Before the war nuber of civilian deaths from IF action....nil
Since the war number of civilian deaths ???

Come on Wolfgang you are a "facts and figures" man explain yourself please!

Bruce I hear what you say but no matter how "evil" Islam may be, it can only be cleansed from within.
An ideology can only be reversed by a stronger/ fairer ideology and the society which our "democratic" ideology has produced is neither.

I will write PM shortly Bruce. Keep well...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 07:15 PM

They're now saying that two of the people being questioned are doctors who've been working in British hospitals.

Holy God tonight.

The man or woman I'd like to hold my hand out to is the police officer who took the mobile phone out of one of the cars - it would have been the detonator. (Not that anyone should do the same again; bombers learn, and the next trigger could be opening a door.) Bless his or her courage and selflessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

I once again have to take issue with Peace saying that "Islam has become corrupt and basically evil". That attitude will not help alleviate this issue--understanding will, IMHO. Understand, don't judge.

It's not the religion that's to blame. Just take a look at the sources of this "terrorist" problem, and why those countries, which just happen to be Islamic, bear grudges against the West:

Afghanistan has been attacked for hundreds of years by outside forces. The British fought three (unsuccessful) wars against them, killing tens of thousands. Later the Russians did the same and now NATO is still killing the Afghans. Why should they have any respect for the outsiders that have already caused so much trouble?   

The Palestinians have been thrown out of their homes, impoverished and shifted from Billy to Jack since 1947. What have they got to lose? They're so embittered by already having lost practically everything that they'll use terror 1)for revenge or 2) because they think it will help them get some political leverage. And to add salt into their wounds the West reject their democratically elected largest party.

Iran was used by West since WW2. The British and CIA organised the 1953 coup which put the Shah into power in order to protect their oil interests. He then formed a police state which relied on US military resources and know-how. That regime was so detested that after the 1979 revolution things swung in the extreme opposite direction. Then they get attacked by Saddam, who was encouraged and armed by the West.

We all know what has and is happening in Irak as a result of the US/British invasion.

I've been to all these countries (except Irak) and seen the bitterness and cynicism that still lingers there. It reminds me of the same feelings that lingered on in Ireland long after the British had left. I don't condone the current wave of bombings--I've seen too much of that in Ireland--but I think I can understand why it's come about.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:05 PM

"It's not the religion that's to blame."

Read my fucking post.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:31 AM

Akenaton, thanks for posting the article by Simon Jenkins, the bottom line says it all, "but it will take courage", waiting on Brown to deliver "courage" will be a long wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:15 AM

MSNBC has posted a couple of articles relating to these incidents recently, but I don't believe that they'll provide any new information or anything different than what's come from closer sources.

One item, however, might be of interest as a "curiosity." They report that the NYPD (New York City) has released an "Alert" with some descriptions of the UK events:

NYPD White Paper released.

While the article about the "White Paper" doesn't say much, there's a link there to the paper itself, at:

NYPD-London.pdf

It might be of interest to some close to the events to see what NYPD thinks of it, and there are some really nice pictures of the locales where the two vehicles were found. (NYPD apparently has a very capable art department.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:25 AM

I seem to remember some bombing campaigns in the 70's and 80's apart from those linked to Northern Ireland. There was certainly a campaign against businesses with Israeli links that caused businesses in the City to consider bomb drills and disaster recovery plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 12:31 PM

Iranian Embassy. London 1980.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,Peter Green
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:00 PM

I find the naivete of some contributers rather scarey. To blame Tony Blair, Bush, Iraq or Afganistan for the situation we now find ourselves is missing the point by political blindness. It is true these things have exacerbated the situation but the problem is much older and deeper
Some 40 years ago, before the fall of the Iron Curtain, I was told that the next world threat was not the USSR or communisum but the expantion of the Muslim world. There is a fundimental belief that only Muslims share the 'true belief' Unbelievers automaticly lose there right to life, property etc.
It is this teaching that is slowly gaining ground because of the fear of being classed as a racist and the wish to be politicaly correct.
Religious bigotry is not new. We have had the Crusades, the Inquisition but they were up front and personal. This new threat is much more sinister. Blaming current events is futile. The Taliban or Iraq rebel is not fighting for the big picture, they have there own agenda. What they are doing is producing the disaffected fighters who hear the message of hate and feel they can only gain by following the 'death to infidels'route.
We know what the terrorist can do so everyone must stand up and condemn this evil by name, and that includes the whole Muslim community because when the s*** hits the fan mass slaughter does not ask your religion.
ps I am normally quite passive

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:12 PM

bin Laden always says "Allah be willing..."

apparently Allah ain't willing.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM

bin Laden wouldn't recognize Allah if He bit him on the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 03:23 PM

A post from Dec. 31, 2006. There are voices that do not agree with people like bin Laden and others who espouse terrorism. You can access the site this is from at

http://www.paktribune.com/pforums/posts.php?t=3475&start=1

"We listened carefully and with great apprciation for both the convictions and moral stand that were espoused today by Pakistani Defense Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal, who stated that Islamic terrorists who would "incorrectly portray themselves as somehow being the "Champions of Islam", would be hunted down, even onto their last remaining hideouts"!

Mr. Iqbal also went on to say that the holy "Qu'rum" does not permit suicide (or) other acts of violence directed against innocents!

Within that vein, we at least, were very happy to hear about the impending sale of AWAC surveilance aircraft by Sweden to Pakistan. This along with the impending arrival of additional American manufactured fighter aircraft and Cobra attack helicopters, to be used, in part, for the just and honorable battle the Government of Pakistan is waging against the forces of darkness and evil that appear in the guise of religious men who spout pius remarks while slaughtering innocents... in many cases, Muslim innocents??

We, at least, feel that 2007 is going to usher in a period of Muslim introspection and an examination as to who these "deviants" are "truly speaking for" and for "what real purpose" they feel entitles them to commit wholesale and henious slaughter of fellow Muslims and non-Muslims alike?

Judge them not by their words but by their actions?

Slaughtering Islamic Clerical leaders who would dare disagree with them?

Slaughtering innocent Muslims... for "God only knows what reasons"?

Threatening and intimidating Imams!

Defiling "God's" home by turning Mosques into ammo dumps and fire bases?

The intentional targeting of Mosques in order to incite Muslim on Muslim secterian violence?

Attempts to silence and intimidate Muslim artists and authors?

Targeting Muslim jounalists who espouse opposing points of view?

Again, we urge any Muslim reading this post to read "Faith Without Fear" by Muslim author Irshad Manji.

Free downloads in Urdu-Persian and Arabic at:

www.muslim-refusenik.com

"Believers, conduct yourselves with justice and bear true witness before "God" even though it be against yourselves, your parents (or) kinsfolk"! Qu'rum 4:135

It's time for the silent "majority" of devout and true members of Islam to remain silent no more!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 04:45 PM

It's as well to recognise that when anger about these bombings wells over into anger at Muslims in general, that is a victory for the bombers.

By erecting barriers of hate and distrust between Muslims and non-Muslims they can hope to bring about a situation in which their perverted version of Islam can start to become credible to an increasing number of co-religionists.

Ideally they would hope to bring about repression and persecution of minority Muslim communities, which would pay rich dividends elsewhere by winning support and power.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:04 PM

Excellent observation, McG of H.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 08:07 PM

I know I know. I've hardly been able to see any coverage of the
actual story, what with all the imams and other Muslim clerics
coming on to deplore the activities of these individuals and
to distance mainstream Islam from them! We're just chock-a-block
with such commentators, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:22 AM

I think that the hope that Islam can only be fixed from within, if I'm understandint that, is well intentioned but unrealistica and inadequate to the situation. The Islamic fundamentalists who are behind the current unpleasantness are equivalent to Nazis in every significant way.

Just as the first victims of Hitler's Nazi party were Germans, the first and to date most numerous victims of the Qaeda followers are fellow Muslims. This is by intention and design. Waiting for the Muslim communities to sort this out is the equivalent of letting Hitler amass his forces via terrorism of his own and appointment of the most base thugs to lead.

As for the case in Britain, I'm happy they have been so light in victims, but I await the facts to fall out as the authorities learn more.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:57 AM

"I think that the hope that Islam can only be fixed from within, if I'm understandint that, is well intentioned but unrealistic"

Robomatic.....You sound as if you think we have a range of options.
In fact we have no alternative but to step "back from the brink".
Waging war on a country for dubious reasons is a certain way to radicalise the citizens of that country.

Perhaps Islam cannot be fixed, and as I've stated already, if that is indeed the case then we are already defeated.
I prefer to be optimistic and the example you cite of the Muslim/Muslim killings can sow the seeds of change among even radicalised Muslims.

We must change our foreign policy, and remove our invasion forces before any change can even start.

If we cannot change our unsustainable lifestyle and rapacious economic system....historically the main cause of conflict in the Middle East, then we must except the consequences...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:33 AM

Encouraging news. Bombs do not know whether their victims are Christians, Muslims or atheists. You can only speculate how many Muslims may have been killed had the bombs gone off...

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Roughyed
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:52 PM

Islamic fundamentalism, far from being 'equivalent to Nazis in every significant way' is very distinct and it doesn't help drawing spurious parallels.

Nazism is a distinct political movement which occurs where there is a lethal threat to capitalism in a particular country and the balance of class forces means that an alliance betweeen the petit bourgeouisie and the lumpen proletariat can take power and save the status quo.

Fascism/Nazism has only ever taken power in Europe in Catholic countries. This is not because these countries are evil or because the Catholic Church is fascist but because the counter-reformation only happened in countries where there was a large peasantry and an underdeveloped haut bourgeouisie - the class forces that favour Fascism/Nazism.

What we are seeing in Al Qaeda is a Saudi civil war being fought by proxy. Osama Bin Laden is a member of the Saudi royal family who would very much like to run the country. Everything he has done is to further that aim. The people he uses are drawn from the petit bourgeouisie and lumpen proletariat because those are the people who support nationalist movements as well as fascist movements. It doesn't make him a fascist or a nazi.

This doesn't excuse Al Qaeda who are a backward looking group with no scruples but it can lead to some illogical leaps if you misidentify your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM

I'm beginning to believe that Western justice is fairly useless
in dealing with these monsters. The deterrents which the Western
world has available (i.e., incarceration and in a limited number
of cases, execution) just don't serve to do anything but effectively
martyr Islamic terrorists.

It may be that Israel has realized this, when formulating their
response to 'suicide bombers.' In some cases, they've bull=dozed
their family homes in response.

As Westerners, we have a sense of 'fair play' that won't presently
permit us to resort to such measures. But we ultimately may have to
revise our thinking with regard to peoples who have such alien
values systems. We may have to mete out justice as it would be
meted out by the 'Islamic states' that these characters seem to
desire so fervently.

So when they drive their Jeep into an airport in Glasgow, society
drives a bulldozer into their grey-haired mother's home in
Sheffield. Or in Islamabad. Or said grey-haird mother gets deported with nothing but the clothes on her back, having been stripped of any
privileges of citizenship. Same treatment for any mosques who provide them spiritual refuge or the madrases at which they were trained.

After all, if these families, religious schools, and houses of worship
are so innocent, then why, too, aren't the folks at the night clubs
or the check-in counters, and on the tube trains?

In the colonial period, if a villager attacked a soldier from the
outpost, the garrison might well have responded by burning the
village and/or its fields. Like it or not, it got the message
across.

Perhaps Western 'Civilization' needs to look at going back to those
terms, if representatives of Islam insist upon operating in
medieval terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 07:21 PM

Oh fuck!! Why don't we just Nuke them all!

We have the technology, whats to stop us?
The Russians and Chinese would be glad to get rid of the mad bastards.
Its the obvious answer isn't it.......Genocide....Mass murder.....slaughter children and mothers....they're sub human, don't deserve to live really. Its not as if they're even Christians.

Does this not sound familiar?...It's the post above without the window dressing....Sad thing is, it might just happen...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM

Yup, Greg B has got the message the bombers are trying to send, and responding in precisely the way they must have been hoping for.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:59 PM

Ake, Roughyed, GregB for the most part I disagree with you all but I found your posts thought provoking and I thank you all.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:36 AM

Akenaton wrote:

"I think that the hope that Islam can only be fixed from within, if I'm understandint that, is well intentioned but unrealistic"

Robomatic.....You sound as if you think we have a range of options.
In fact we have no alternative but to step "back from the brink".
Waging war on a country for dubious reasons is a certain way to radicalise the citizens of that country.

Perhaps Islam cannot be fixed, and as I've stated already, if that is indeed the case then we are already defeated.
I prefer to be optimistic and the example you cite of the Muslim/Muslim killings can sow the seeds of change among even radicalised Muslims.

We must change our foreign policy, and remove our invasion forces before any change can even start.

If we cannot change our unsustainable lifestyle and rapacious economic system....historically the main cause of conflict in the Middle East, then we must except the consequences

I do not think we're already defeated. I think the defeat of radical Islam is inevitable and that the majority of Muslims are not only not with the fundy's but a major part of the solution.

But I do think it won't be done peacefully. As for our foreign policy, I think it could be better, but now that we're there, it's important that we pull off some kind of perceptable win.

As for our unsustainable lifestyle, I agree with you. But I'm an American, I'm all about 'excepting' (i.e. not accepting) the consequences.


Roughyed wrote:

Islamic fundamentalism, far from being 'equivalent to Nazis in every significant way' is very distinct and it doesn't help drawing spurious parallels.

Nazism is a distinct political movement which occurs where there is a lethal threat to capitalism in a particular country and the balance of class forces means that an alliance betweeen the petit bourgeouisie and the lumpen proletariat can take power and save the status quo.

Fascism/Nazism has only ever taken power in Europe in Catholic countries. This is not because these countries are evil or because the Catholic Church is fascist but because the counter-reformation only happened in countries where there was a large peasantry and an underdeveloped haut bourgeouisie - the class forces that favour Fascism/Nazism.

What we are seeing in Al Qaeda is a Saudi civil war being fought by proxy. Osama Bin Laden is a member of the Saudi royal family who would very much like to run the country. Everything he has done is to further that aim. The people he uses are drawn from the petit bourgeouisie and lumpen proletariat because those are the people who support nationalist movements as well as fascist movements. It doesn't make him a fascist or a nazi.

This doesn't excuse Al Qaeda who are a backward looking group with no scruples but it can lead to some illogical leaps if you misidentify your enemy.

Your description of the situation in terms of class warfare, if you are not being deeply sarcastic, sounds kinda Marxist, which is a hoot. As if Marxists and their counter-intuitive netherphilosophy of diabolical materialism ever explained anything...

In fact, Saddam Hussein consciously modeled himself after Comrade Joe (Stalin). Nazism and Communism are different shades of the same thing: Totalitarianism. Nazism embraces the pseudo science of race, Communism believes in the central dominance of the planned economy. "Fundamental" terrorist religious fanatics, any stripe, believe in a dedicated route to Heaven that is defined only by them. It is a substitution of man for God in the name of God.

All the above systems are Procrustean, they have no trouble with eliminating human beings who don't fit the mold. They enslave whole populations whose only choices for life are to fight or fit, viz the old Soviet maxim "When you live with wolves, howl like one."

Which brings us to GregB:

I'm beginning to believe that Western justice is fairly useless
in dealing with these monsters. The deterrents which the Western
world has available (i.e., incarceration and in a limited number
of cases, execution) just don't serve to do anything but effectively
martyr Islamic terrorists.

It may be that Israel has realized this, when formulating their
response to 'suicide bombers.' In some cases, they've bull=dozed
their family homes in response.

As Westerners, we have a sense of 'fair play' that won't presently
permit us to resort to such measures. But we ultimately may have to
revise our thinking with regard to peoples who have such alien
values systems. We may have to mete out justice as it would be
meted out by the 'Islamic states' that these characters seem to
desire so fervently.

So when they drive their Jeep into an airport in Glasgow, society
drives a bulldozer into their grey-haired mother's home in
Sheffield. Or in Islamabad. Or said grey-haird mother gets deported with nothing but the clothes on her back, having been stripped of any
privileges of citizenship. Same treatment for any mosques who provide them spiritual refuge or the madrases at which they were trained.

After all, if these families, religious schools, and houses of worship
are so innocent, then why, too, aren't the folks at the night clubs
or the check-in counters, and on the tube trains?

In the colonial period, if a villager attacked a soldier from the
outpost, the garrison might well have responded by burning the
village and/or its fields. Like it or not, it got the message
across.

Perhaps Western 'Civilization' needs to look at going back to those
terms, if representatives of Islam insist upon operating in
medieval terms.

Our (The West's) options are in fact very flexible, because our past embodies the present of the World Of Islam. And if we are flexible and somewhat adept, we can understand that the Islamic world is not monolithic, is full of intelligence and creativity and the yearnings that brought light and science to the backwardness of the European Christian world hundreds of years ago (but took hundreds of years to take effect).

So we need to use force, we need to use argument. We need to use understanding. We need to partition the Islamic world so as to minimize the antagonism of the majority, who do NOT seek our deaths (yet).

Which brings us to the present, where we have imperfect leaders. Sometimes one has to lead the leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:40 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6257594.stm
This is a nasty little story about how children are being radicalised.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:33 AM

I wish people wouldn't use "medieval" as a catch-all insult for things don't like.

There is nothing in the least medieval about the "born again" version of Islam that is a factor in all this. It's a modern development, analogous in that way to some kind of fundamentalism in other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:44 AM

Is there an example of another fundamentalist religion that has a comparable, medieval enthusiasm for the taking of life in furtherance of their own supremacy?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:03 AM

There are wrongs on both sides here.
Historic wrongs and modern wrongs perpetrated by the West on the people of the Middle East.

Reaction by radicalised Muslems is also very wrong, even if clearheaded people can work out why it occurs.
When an ideology causes young men and women to take their own lives to kill their enemies it becomes a madness, and Im sure the madness we see today all over the Middle East is encouraged by men who are far from mad....men who seek power at any cost.

The problem with the artguments put forward by Robo and Keith is that they fail to see any fault in the position of the West.

Its back to trench warfare where nothing is solved.

Simply condemning one side in this conflict consolidates positions which have survived as long as I remember

Lets all start looking at what the side that we support is doing wrong for a change. It may be uncomfortable, but if we don't solve this matter soon it may engulf the whole world....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:05 AM

How about the fundamentalist Christian right's enthusiasm for capital punishment, for a start?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

McGrath,

"I wish people wouldn't use "medieval" as a catch-all insult for things don't like.

There is nothing in the least medieval about the "born again" version of Islam that is a factor in all this. It's a modern development, analogous in that way to some kind of fundamentalism in other religions. "

I understand and agree with your point, but the following may shed light on why the term is being used. The present Islamic extremists are acting much as Europeans did in the middle ages.

"The site of Clifford's Tower, the keep of York's medieval castle, still bears witness to the most horrifying event in the history of English Jewry. On the night of 16 March 1190, the feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the small Jewish community of York was gathered together for protection inside the tower. Rather than perish at the hands of the violent mob that awaited them outside, many of the Jews took their own lives; others died in the flames they had lit, and those who finally surrendered were massacred and murdered.

Understandably, this appalling event has become the most notorious example of antisemitism in medieval England. Yet, it was by no means an isolated incident, but rather the culmination of a tide of violent feeling which swept the country in the early part of 1190. "

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 08:24 AM

Islamists are capital punishment enthusiasts AS WELL AS employing random acts of mass murder againts civillian targets.
Any other examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 09:38 AM

bearded bruce:

Your point on McGrath's pickiness re the word 'medieval' is well taken. I didn't use the term 'medieval' nevertheless one doesn't have to go far to find incidents of European religious 'fundamentalism through history including well into modern times. There's the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in which the Catholic royals of France utilized the people of Paris to commit wholesale murder and mayhem upon Protestants, there's the incident in which a Protestant was horribly executed in France which caused Voltaire to coin his phrase: "Ecrasez L'infame", and of course there's the well known and prolonged religious wars throughout Europe, in the wake of Luther, including the incredible historical period in England called the Civil War, which was in fact a complex period of religious, political and class warfare. And I think the carnage in Europe and South America was far worse than anything the Islamic world has yet come up with.

This is all toward my oft-repeated point that Islam is in a different time-stage relative to the other main religions of the world, which have gone through similar periods up to recent times. Complaining about the use of the term 'medieval' is like remarking on the color of the patch one uses to fix a leaky pneumatic tire.

As for Akenaton's contention that "The problem with the arguments put forward by Robo and Keith is that they fail to see any fault in the position of the West." this is Akenaton's failure to put up some concrete instances but to attempt to justify Akenaton's own weak position by spreading the blame around on a level with "mistakes were made".

Also it is not true in my case. I'm NOT making the case that the West is all sweetness and light. I'm making the case that the West has been through very similar times to what is occurring now in the Islamic world, that there may be a 'progression' of intellectual thought that all powerful religions go through, so we should be well warned.

And my argument that the Islamic fundamentalists of today are very similar to the Nazis of the recent past in self-justification, aggresiveness, and potential cultural damage yet stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:12 AM

Actually I'd say there is much more similarity to the way Europeans of various varieties of Christianity behaved towards each other during the Reformation and Counter Reformation period, which was a time of fanatical modernisation.   

My point is that it's a mistake to think of Jihadist Islamism as a hangover from the past. It's a new phenomenon, geared towards an imagined future. That's where its danger lies. (And that is something it does indeed have in common with Nazism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:51 AM

There is indeed great enthusiasm for capital punishment in Islamic states. That is just one of many reasons why I do not wish our regimes in Western Europe to resemble theirs. But getting back to random killing... Which country and which age shall we talk about? Shall we recall the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre of 1919, or perhaps the the Dresden Massacre of 13/14 February 1945, ? or perhaps the entire bombing strategy of targeting residential areas in the latter stages of World War II. Indeed the Germans started it, but does that detract from the fact that when we did it, it was still genocide? I am appalled by the terrorist attacks by Islamic nutters anywhere. I can still spare a thought for the relatives of some eighty Afgahn civilians, who were killed by a foreign invader's air force on Sunday. It is going to be bloody hard work to convince them that terrorists are the worst people in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

Robo--

"...important that we pull off some sort of perceptable (sic) win". In Iraq? If not, where? And we're back to the other old questions: what's your definition of a win? And how long are you willing to stay there to get your "win"?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

Ron:

'member what I said about flexibility?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:39 AM

No, actually. What does that mean in reference to my questions? The "flexibility" of the US public is fast disappearing.

And from the WSJ today:

"Iraq lawmakers failed again to pass a law on dividing oil wealth among sectarian communities. Kurds insist on control of resources in their zone."

Particularly the last sentence is crucial.

Kurds will not--ever--give up control of oil in "Kurdistan". By the end of this year, this very likely will include the oil-rich Kurkuk region. All eyes seem to be on Baghdad, but a strong argument can be made that Kirkuk is as least as significant.

Shia will take the Kurds' approach as a model.

So Sunni in "their zone" will be out of luck. And they know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 09:01 AM

Alanabit:

You should add to your massacre list the 10 million (or more) who perished in the Soviet Union's drive to collectivization and the 20 to 40 millions of human beings who died under China's Cultural Revolution the 1.5 million Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge, the 3.5 million North Koreans who perished in the famines of the 1990's. These were massacres by governments against their own people. And the list is far from complete.

The stuff you mentioned was done by pikers.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,Scotland calling
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Bombs defused in London, no damge; explosion/blazing car at airport in Glasgow. Yet notice that it was about twenty posts before the second was even mentioned; sooner Scotland shakes off the British State, sooner the Imperialist mind-set will be abandoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 11:21 AM

1. The Glasgow incident took place after the thread had been started so why the surprise?
2. The thread was started in Sydney, not exactly known for it's Imperialist sympathies.
3. The thread was labelled London not UK.
4. There's a nice restaurant in Glasgow called The Ubiquitous Chip, perhaps you should try eating there ocasionally?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 02:47 PM

Robomatic, you are absolutely right. My point was merely that we Brits have no reason to feel smug and superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

"Robomatic, you are absolutely right. My point was merely that we Brits have no reason to feel smug and superior. "

But, alanabit, you Brits do it so well!

Seriously, it is possible to get on one's high horse, and we're all better off realizing that we've all "played the headsman" so to speak.

I submit that a certain self awareness is in order, the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through, and the stare of "bloody mindedness" is one that all cultures are still in, for a very good reason, if one is not in it, one does not survive.

I tend to idealize Brits, which comes of a bit too many Goons, too much Gilbert & Sullivan, and a book of Churchillian wit. I think that both Yanks and Brits have a self critical strain which for the most part makes us stronger.

With all the wide range of current events, I think it's fair to say we're in an ideological war against 'true-believers' and there is some confusion amongst the true-believers in our midst who believe that the war is one religion versus another, whereas I and perhaps you perceive it as a war in which we favor toleration, and the other side has no truck with tolerance.

Which brings us to the moral question at the heart: Do the tolerant have a right to limit their tolerance of the intolerant, if only to survive?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 02:06 AM

Sheesh robomatic! We are going to have a very long thread if we start debating that one! I would like to look at the problem of "fanatics" from another angle. Let me describe terrorism, for the sake of argument as "low level acts of extreme violence (compared to military capability) in support of a group, which exists outside of normal political structures". Now we describe most of the perpetrators as "fanatics" or "extremists" when they commit violence. Usually, in terms of real influence or power, they are very weak. So I think that terrorism is essentially an an act of despair or desperation by those, who feel they are under threat or that they have no other way of making their voice heard. That does not excuse it or make it any less despicable.
What gives me hope is that if you take soldiers off a battlefield, they can usually talk to each other and engage in real dialogue. If we can bring Hizbolla, Hamas etc into dialogue, they will not be able to see us as only a threat.
To go back to your final question. I suppose if we have a sudden flare up, and I swing a punch at your head, you have every right to limit your tolerance and to stop me from hurting you. However, we both know that when tempers have calmed down and we both listen to each other, we can laugh it off and move on. Dialogue can be long and tortuous, but the alternative is an eternal circle of atrocity and revenge. There simply is not any future in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM

the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through,

If by that you mean it's a phase they pass through and then it's done with, a sort of societal equivalent of adolescence, I think that's over optimistic.

Analogies between individuals and society are occasionally helpful, and frequently seductive, but they need to be treated with extreme caution.    The more relevant analogy for true believerism, I suggest, isn't so much adolescence, it's fever. By that I mean, it isn't something a society gets over once and for all, it's something that can strike again, maybe in some new form.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

McGrath,

re Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:37 AM


I agree entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 08:10 AM

Really good comments above, gotta take a bit of a break and think on 'em . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,yank
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

Your MI-5 and MI-6 ran "Irish" bombings. You have a new fascist Prime Minister pushing for more social control. Can't y'all piece it together?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

"Your MI-5 and MI-6 ran "Irish" bombings."

False statement, until evidence is provided.


'Your MI-5 and MI-6 may have run "Irish" bombings. ' would be a more acceptable wording, but the lack of evidence is indicative of the weakness of your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:47 PM

I may have got "Pillock of the Week" last week, but this time around I just can't compete!

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 02:14 PM

"the state of the mind of the "true believer" is one that I believe all cultures pass through,"

I'll go with that. As a late adolescent, I could have been easily recruited by either side, just by someone taking a personal interest in me.
The army is extremely adept at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM

Robo--


Not to commit too egregious thread creep--but I still---vehemently--disagree with the idea that we have to "pull off some sort of perceptible win". Exactly why do we have to do that?

And, again, what is your definition of a "win"?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM

Ron:

A fair question, (for our leaders, not for me). How you define a win and how I define a win, Ron, very likely depend on how we define the war. As I implied above, I think we're fighting an ideological war AND a physical one. We have to win the ideological war, and we have to save face on the physical one, both of which are pretty do-able, given a half confident/ competent administration.

Recently (Yesterday) NPR broadcast the opinions of a former jihadi, a young British citizen with Pakistani background, who for years was one of the screaming loonies. Check out what he had to say on the npr.org website. I believe his name was Butt.

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM

meanwhile, on the other side of the globe Gold Coast (Australia) doctor arrested over UK bomb plot

updates - Doctor working in Australia linked to London Bombings

sandra (republican!)

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:59 AM

Robo--


Why is "saving face" worth the death of one more soldier or Iraqi?

This argument sounds distressingly like the drivel we are fed daily by the Bush regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: GUEST,yank
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:01 PM

The Pelosi regime voted to continue the wars. To surge the wars, even. This is the "change" they promised us before the U.S. elections in 2006.

The talk about Bush's sins is wearing thin. The Democrats are now funding the war. It is the Democrats' war. The liberals' war.

But the change from one monstrous regime to another is easy to overlook. We're told a fresh face will make a difference. Blair's out, Brown's in, and a convenient non-event of "terrorism" is hyped by the media to make sure you know the there is still a tie that binds the old to the new.

The media is guilty of the terrorism, and the media is controlled by the governments. Look up the definition of terrorism then watch television. You'll see terrorism being relentlessly practiced against you, and not by the likes of bin Laden. Bush, Brown, Pelosi, Blair, Rupert Murdoch...they're the terrorists. Don't trust anything they say, and when the next true terror event occurs, remember that the ones in power are going to benefit by you agreeing to give up your rights for "security."

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:05 PM

Oh, terrorism is also practised by the likes of bin Laden, too. Don't go too far overboard. The others are assholes, and I have never had any use for Pelosi--just a Republican in drag--but to suggest that shithead has clean hands is foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:58 PM

yeah, guest,yank,apologist- in case you haven't checked out the origins of this thread, doctors, be they jew,christian,muslim, are supposed to take the 'hippocratic oath' and first do no harm. With doctors like these the average citizen is going to seek protection from the very folks you are blaming. Your witless rant provides no basis for constructing a more coherent reply. If you want to call everyone a terrorist your ability to discriminate is compromised from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM

Pedantic interjection: Doctors don't in fact take the Hippocratic Oath, at least they don't in the UK.

Here it is as a matter of interest:

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons labouring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:29 PM

Wasn't Mengele a doctor?

Subject: RE: BS: Car bombs defused in london
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:37 PM

McGrath:

Well, for that pedantic observation, I learned something, but I will endeavor to forgive you.

Robo, typical ignant 'murrican