BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:14 PM

No Ake, you don't get away with that either.

Show one instance where I have set up ANY stereotype to be denigrated.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:12 PM

The point I was making is that on under the minimum wage people travelling to work would never be able to afford the forty mile bus fare, the fact that it is heavily subsidised allows them to do so, while locals club together in cars.
In other words the taxpayer subsidy is assisting in the undercutting of local labour.....nothing to do with racism or Southern segregation
I can't believe you really said that...and meant it.

You Royston were the one who started making disparaging remarks about British women    "Do you want a Muslim to start drinking alcolhol or if, a woman, to start getting her tits out for the lads on a Friday night?"

I dont denigrate Glasgow Asians for their lifestyle, but they obviously do not want to integrate for the reasons my friend has given!


Who *are* the bigots here!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:51 PM

Royston and Don .....You seem to have absolutely no problem denigrating British steriotypes yet become incadescent over perceived steriotyping of foreign nationals.....How curious!

Lox.... "control wage rates"is correct.... you said "lower wage rates" something, which for most low paid workers, is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:47 PM

No, Ake, you don't get away with that.

IF you were just making a point about wage-rates then you would have stopped the story at the local developer who employed people at £10/hr, a lot less than the "going rate".

But you chose to carry on with a load of stuff about the quality of work and you made a fatuous comment about them being subsidised by the taxpayer when, in fact, you just meant that they travelled on a public bus, like everyone else. So what is your point again Ake?

Then on the issue of your celebrated Goan friend, this "integration" is clearly something close to your heart because you chose to offer this as criticism of Glasgow Asians. Why should they not be entitled to be clean-living, alcohol-free, religious people? Go on Ake, why not? I love my drink - fine wine and real ale - but I am rarely drunk, never violent, never antisocial. I look down on town-centre yob & drinking culture. Most people do. So what's your point Ake?

Then, most wonderful of all, having established (doh!) that Muslims and some other asians don't like drinking and loutish behaviour - YOU made the link that these asians must therefore be prejudiced against Scots: so YOU ascribe these attributes to all Scots do you Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:33 PM

here is something interesting.
the irish government has spent 150 thousand euros deporting an asylum seeker to Ghana,plus 36 thousand deporting a Georgian man in march,a total of 1 .2 million was spent deporting 264 people since the start of 2008.
that is 1.2 million,that could have been spent on the health serviceand other social services.
plus the millions they have wasted on useless electronic voting machines.
has the BNP thought what the cost would be of deporting all the people they consider undesirable,or would they indulge in a bit of ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:26 AM

Paragraph 3

" ... immigration used as a tool to control wage rates is bad policy ..."

Maybe you misrepresent yourself.



I'll come back to the rest later.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

I'm the kind of gobby sod that will start up a conversation with just about anybody, on just about any subject.

I talk to people, and if they indicate that they are not interested, I drop it.

I'd have to say that the proportion of Asians, Muslims, Jews, Christians, whatever, who are prepared to interact is roughly the same, whatever their origins.

Muslim women, are ill treated in my experience, just about in the same proportion as Christian women, and never make the mistake of believing that all muslim women wearing the Burka, are forced to do so.

In fact the reverse is true. Most muslim women are brought up to a degree of modesty that white women have not seen since pre World War One, and covering up is natural to their way of life.

The number that are oppressed is most likely about equivalent to the number of battered white women. The point is that bad news being good news for the Media, those are the ones you hear about.

As for integrating into Scottish society, wouldn't that be better left until AFTER you integrate all the Rab C Nesbitt clones, who have as yet not been assimilated?

Meanwhile try a little old-fashioned "Live and let Live".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

Excellent my dear, you *are* becoming a real liberal and a bit of a star into the bargain.....:0)
Royston you are pathetic! I made it clear that the statement was made by my Indian friend who has many aquaintances in the Asian community

The story about the cheap workers was to provide a bit of evidence requested by Lox....I am well aware that there are cowboy workers in Britainthe point is that these people were vetted by an agency and prepared to work for much less than UK tradesmen....This is relatively common in Scotland don't sound so surprised.
The fact that they happened to be Poles is incidental they could have been any nationality of immigrants prepared to work for less money than locals.
I was answering Lox's point about wage rates and Don T's point about multiculturalism. The rest of your post is abusive nonesense.

What a joke! you ask me for evidence that the immigration encouraged by Blair and Co affected wage rates, and when I do so you brand me a bigot!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 12:24 PM

i think what ake was trying to get at is that SOME of the immigrants that live in this country don't try to learn the language or try to make conversation when sitting on a bus, whatever. someof them don't invite the nieghbours to join their kids in paddling pools,or round for tea.

please don't shout at me saying that there are white folks like this, I KNOW THAT! but i think it maybe is more obvious when an immigrant does it, don't ask me why, but it seems to be.

when any group of people try to make their own comunity(?) others always feel on the outside of it, i wonder if this is why there is a seemed devide?

i might not be able to understand someone very well but am alaways happy when someone makes the effort to talk to me.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

Ake, I think your last post is a long way beneath your intellect

the Asians have no intention of integrating with the indigenous Glasgow people

Define your "integration". Do you want a Muslim to start drinking alcolhol or if, a woman, to start getting her tits out for the lads on a Friday night? A presbyterian or baptist Christian (both churches prevalent in Scotland) would be a lot closer to the Muslims in their views of society than many secular scots. So why do have to single out Muslims for some extraordinary expectation that they should have to become a brown-skinned facsimile of a working-class white folk? Do you not see that your mind is running on a set of racist preconceptions?

So one builder got a load of cheap Poles to bugger up a job. What about the crap English that have buggering up jobs in greater numbers for a longer time. In the last year I've had my car repaired after an accident, new fences put in and trees cut back, and the whole house decorated...by Poles...and compared to *some* of the crap British contractors I've endured over the years, they've all been a bloody breath of fresh air.

Again we see your preconceptions. To you there just has to be one "bad" Pole, Muslim, African etc etc and you think you've got "the lot of them worked out". We all know there are crap builders all over the world. I have found - as have a lot of people - that Eastern Europeans have skills and work ethics that are lacking in this country; that's why they have come here and that's why they have been largely succesful here.

By the way, you said that a private employer employed these Poles through a private agency and they took public transport to work. What on earth was your point about public subsidy? What...fare-paying foreigners should be excluded from public transport. Ake, are you taking us back to southern USA apartheid now?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:38 AM

Royston. "BNP: Insignificant now, but a real growing danger if left unchecked."

I don't think it's possible to overstate the growing danger of the BNP, and of the other European fascist parties. At the moment, the BNP consists of a hard core of several hundred nutters, with proven unpleasant fascist credentials. They are surrounded by a much larger coterie of politically naive and largely passive members. Most of this lot appear to be little more than card carriers, and I'd guess that an awful lot of them are in fact lapsed members. Their electoral successes have been few and minimum. They have taken a number of council seats, with a high proportion of re-election failures; they won two seats in the Euro elections, purely because the Labour vote collapsed; and in the Norwich North by-election they were right down there with the lunatic fringe, on just 2.74% of the vote.

On current performance therefore, the BNP is highly dismissable as a gang of right wing lunatics who will never pose a threat to anyone.

The problem is that Griffin and co know perfectly well they will never get elected to government via constitutional means. They are in fact merely marking time until they can acheive their ends by unconsitutional means.

Their theories are founded on a combination of nazi white supremacism and something called survivalism. This is an idea, which started going the rounds of the far right about thirty years ago, namely that western society is decadent and doomed and headed for collapse. The BNP's take on this is the collapse will be brought about by a combination of economic chaos, oil shortages, climate change, and mass civil disorder. In other words they are planning to claw their way into power on the back of the same kind of socio/economic nightmare which was 1920s Germany.

How far their prognosis will prove correct of course is anybody's guess, but I would certainly tick at least two of those boxes. In other words there's worrying time ahead, and if they ever acheive their aim, then God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 11:23 AM

I don't know whether you would class this as "evidence", but all I can do is cite acouple of cases from my locality.
You misrepresented me by saying.."Your point of view is that the government uses immigration as a tool to bring wage ratesdown"..when what I actually said was "the govt encourages immigration to control wage rates"....as you may know it is illegal to force workers to except less than the minimum wage.

I mentioned earlier about the many fish farms round here who pay the minimum wage, they used to employ local workers on the minimum wage...which is basically starvation wages.
The fish farm company decided to keep the minimum wage rate yet increase the number of hours worked for some and bring in short term contract work for others....this being advantageous to the farm company financial terms, but means that the workers were left with less money at the end of the week.

A dispute started which ended with some of the workers leaving and the rest returning to work on the new terms.
The shortfall in staff is made up by bussing in 25 Eastern European workers daily from the nearest town....by public transport of course subsidised by the taxpayer.

The most common other cases are in the building trade.
A local developer had run short of cash and applied to an agency which suppies Polish building workers at £10 per hr, far below the daywork rate for a local tradesman.....the job took months to complete....in fact it was never properly finished as the Polish gang disappeared before completion.
I was asked by the developer to finish the job and on inspection I found it to be a real "botch up" the workers involved were obviously not tradesmen. I finished the job to the best of my ability but much of the work will need to be undone.
The deveoper is very angry, but as I said to him,"did you really expect to get a decent tradesman for £10 per hour?

This scenario is occuring on quite a large scale in Scotland.

I also know quite a lot about the Asian community especially in Glasgow, who are indeed very hardworking, but the problem my Goan friend tells me is a social one.....the Asians have no intention of integrating with the indigenous Glasgow people whom they see as people of low morallity, given to drunkeness, violence and godlessness, in fact, as you "liberals" would say they are bigotted against the Scots.

I expect you to start a new thread complaining about this forthwith!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM

Ask a Moslem woman if Islam is good for women ...


Then provide evidence of UAF aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM

Now we are making progress, Fairplay.

OK, I give in. Mass immigration isn't happening and the country couldn't exist without it. Islam is good for women and gays. The BNP is totally insignificant and a huge threat. The UAF isn't violent or run by the SWP. I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message

Mass immigration: you're right it is NOT happening. Not at least in any way that can be described as "mass", "unfettered" or "swamping".

Islam / Women: That some Muslims are misogynists does not make *Islam* or *all muslims* misogynistic. Because they dress and think differently to Europeans does not make *all muslim women* suppressed or down-trodden. If you took the trouble to get to know your Muslim neighbours you would see that family dynamics are pretty bloody similar to Europeans. Man of the house gets his ego massaged (if he's lucky) while everything gets done the way the missus wants it.

Islam / Gays: When was the last time you saw or heard a Muslim in the media, courts or press or on the streets of this country making life miserable for gays? Never, or rarely. However, the homegrown Aryan Christians - constantly banging on about hellfire, damnation and actively going to the courts for the right - THE RIGHT - to disriminate against gays in the provision of public services: The recent case of public sevants refusing to enable same-sex civil partnerships being just one example. So, yes I am pretty comfortable about my Muslim neighbours on that front; they are entitled to their private views and they keep them pretty private.

BNP: Insignificant now, but a real growing danger if left unchecked.

UAF: Not violent - you keep alluding to this violence but you never give an example. Because there isn't one. I don't regard throwing eggs at Griffin as violent. UAF is not run by the SWP. There are a lot of stakeholders, the largest is the UCU and the long list of unions that support it via the TUC. Most left wing political figures and activists have their roots in SWP. So do I. I left it about 15 years ago because I disagreed with it. What IS your point?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:58 AM

""I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message.""

NO! You haven't JUST landed. You've been there all along. Welcome to the REAL world, where England is being "swamped" by a total black and Asian contingent that is actually about 4.5 to 5.0 percent of the total population. CATASTROPHE? THE END OF CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT?

NO actually. The jobs they have taken are the ones English people don't want to do for themselves.

I remember well the years when I couldn't get a pint of milk, or a loaf of bread, after 6.00pm.

My local corner shop stays open till 10.00pm.

What is the difference? Well it's run by a nice, hardworking Asian family, and very handy it is to have them available, with everything from food to fusewire. Washing up liquid to falling down liquid (booze).

They are making this country such an awful place to live in....NOT!

I'd say, on balance, better keep th immigrants.......AND DEPORT THE BNP!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:46 AM

OK, I give in. Mass immigration isn't happening and the country couldn't exist without it. Islam is good for women and gays. The BNP is totally insignificant and a huge threat. The UAF isn't violent or run by the SWP. I have now landed on Planet Madcap and am fully on message.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:45 AM

Their moral and intellectual bankruptcy is not their only problem GW (unfortunate initials, those LOL).

It seems to me their greatest challenge is their apparent lack of friends and supporters, a lack so overwhelming that they are forced to steal identities, and use them to invent fictitious support on a social networking site.

Billy-No-Mates is a social lion by comparison.

WHAT A JOKE THEY ARE!

The day of Griffin's funeral, they'll probably need to import labourers from some African village that's never heard of him, to carry his coffin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:13 AM

how about answering the questions stacked up at your door before starting some new avoidance tactics.
I think we all now realise that it's BNP policy not to answer questions. Enough have been asked of BNP George, foulplay and the other sock-puppets here, and no answers have been given. They're intellectually and morally bankrupt, it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 08:58 AM

if the BNP managed to send all the immigrants away,they would still have economic problems.
the multi nationals would just relocate to where labour was cheapest.
multi nationals will also relocate[if they think it necessary to boost profit],to where they can get away with environmental abuse,and poor working conditions,and where they have to pay less tax,if the skilled work force is not there, they will then attempt to import a skilled workforce.
the policies of the BNP wil have no effect in sorting out the economic problems of Capitalism.
the multi nationals corporations are stronger than any political party including the BNP,
However they can be embarrassed, as Shell have been, by the internet.
focus on the proper enemy,the enemy is the system,not the immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 08:25 AM

"Lox....Your last pile of posts keep asking for evidence of political motives"

No - where people make claims or assert an opinion, I ask them to back up their opinion with evidence.

So far on this thread, the Anti BNP posters have provided a wealth of evidence to suppport their opinions.


The pro BNP posters have provided none.


Likewise, there has been no evidence provided to support the view that immigration is responsible for any legal reduction in wages, nor that it is responsible for unemployment, nor that Immigrants sponge off the state.

These things may happen, and if they do there will be examples/evidence.

In the absence of reliable evidence we can only conclude that such allegations are fiction.


There is a large gap between the two following statements.


"we need to encourage immigrants to these shores in order that the UK can remain competitive in a Global Economy"

and

"immigration used as a tool to control wage rates"


Their meanings are significantly different.


The government may have issued the first statement.


The second statement comes from you.

Your point of view is that the government uses immigration as a tool to bring wage rates down.

The government may spin or lie or sing nursery rhymes, but this has no bearing on whether or not your point of view is supported.

Do you have any evidence to suport your point of view?



"Sometime, no matter how difficult it may be, we just have to use our brains"

Thank you for that helpful advice - I'l bear it in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:21 AM

Fairplay, If you have a point, then make it. Liberty is subjective, no society allows unfettered liberty. Anyway, how about answering the questions stacked up at your door before starting some new avoidance tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,William Kimber
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM

I just popped in to have a free reed . . . . ..

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:43 AM

How many countries have or value liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:23 AM

fairplay, i don't think you and the rest of us are living in the same country!
i think that whatever drugs you are on, you need to stop man. they are clearly making you delusional and paranoid.

wow i never thought i would be telling anybody that!!

i can only think of one town that might seem like it has been 'swamped' but that has more to do with the local council placing restrictions on people and writing road signs in different languages than it does with the amount of immigrants there.

i can see why some people have a problem with those who do not try to learn the language, which is just bad manners really, but that problem is in reverse when any of the british or english go abroad too.


take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM

Even if...

Fairplay, what planet are you from? Copy and paste from the BNP manifesto. Video's of NICK GRIFFIN explaining IN HIS OWN WORDS his plans for lying about his true agenda until he gets into power. What more do you want?

Either you are stupid or you actually rather sympathise with Nick's "White power, send 'em all home on on the end of a boot" agenda. Grow the balls to be honest enough to tell us which you are.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:14 AM

even if?
They are, and they are far more of a threat to liberty and a decent way of life than the ethnic make-up of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:05 AM

Even if all the copy-and-paste smears about BNP extremism were true, they would pale into insignificance in comparison with the prospect of demographic change facing Europe, especially where that has an Islamic dimension. England's major cities will cease to be predominantly English. Europe will not be the same place with different people.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:26 AM

Lox....Your last pile of posts keep asking for evidence of political motives, well you must be very politically naive if you think political parties in power will attach an information sheet to their legislation explaining its true purpose.

Sometime, no matter how difficult it may be, we just have to use our brains....Politicians use code to disguise what they intend(another example of "Double think" or "Newspeak" and how "Liberal" govts use Orwellian methods to manipulate society), in this particular case, I think the phrase used all over the media was "we need to encourage immigrants to these shores in order that the UK can remain competitive in a Global Economy"

I repeat, immigration used as a tool to control wage rates is bad policy, in fact immigration used as a tool in any sense is always storing up trouble for the future. The immigration issue should be handled sensitively and thoughtfully.....something which seems quite impossible for polititians.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:05 AM

So, just for the record, when all the BNP lies get shot down in flames with FACT, all they've got left is:

"Give me a nudge when this is all over, it's like listening to grass growing, pulling your own teeth out would be less painless than this thread."

And some people would vote for this????

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 02:31 AM

Richard's effective likening of BNP members to apes (knuckle-dragging) sounds like the biological racism that used to be directed against the Irish. This constant stream of insults, demonisation and dehumanisation is ever the totalitarian's prelude to mass murder. Quite a few here have hinted at just that.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:42 PM

I love the Magic roundabout.


I loved the film - dougal and the blue cat.


Remember?


Buxton the blue cat wanted everyone to be blue and if you weren't blue you had to go to prison.

There was a character called the Blue Voice who's line was "Blue is beautiful, blue is best. I'm blue, I'm beautiful, I'm best ..."


It was a superb way of teaching kids about both the absurdity and the cruelty of Fascism.


I remember at the age of 5 or 6 being extremely upset by this scene in particular, in which florence and her friends are imprisoned in the dungeons for not being blue.

Florence

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:24 PM

Lest we forget...

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:18 PM

Give me a nudge when this is all over, it's like listening to grass growing, pulling your own teeth out would be less painless than this thread.

We have had runs over the years that were boring, over worked, senseless, anti Irish, pro Irish, anti Bush, Martin Gibson, that stupid one about him with the rug on his head who appeared in Star trek and Michael Jackson.

This one wins hands down at insulting, swearing, cut & paste, breaking cat rules and people having to take their trousers down to talk.

Please give it a nice funeral and in doing so it will extend all our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:17 PM

Paco

Well said!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM

Boing, said Zebedee.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 10:45 AM

BTW

I would gladly contribute to a discussion on the failings of the Labour Government and would offer my pennorth on their shortcomings.


That however would be a different discussion.

This thread (as can be seen fairly explicitly in the title) is about the BNP.


It asked the question "why have they gained votes?" to which thwe first obvious answer is that they haven't.


Their supporters, ignoring this, then went on to argue that their support is due to the consequences of immigration.

They argue that immigration causes unemployment as migrants come and take British Jobs. They also claim that Migrants put a strain on the economy as they come here and sponge of the state.


There is no evidence to support these views.


Lots of evidence has been provided to refute these views.


So if these arguments have been dismantled so easily and repeatedly, what reasons are left to support the BNP?


Why cling on so tenaciously to a party whose view of Britain has been so clearly shown to be a fiction?


Why regurgitate views that have been disproved time and time again?


I'll tell you why - because when you hate people you will use any lie or excuse to be rid of them.


And the BNP and their supporters are full of hatred. They will cling on to their ideology and blame foreigners no matter what arguments or evidence are presented to them.

And they will lie to anyone that will listen, especially someone vulnerable to get their support and to try and get them to hate foreigners too.

We may like to think that we are so much better than the Germans of the 1930's or the Hutus of Rwanda or the Hans of Urumqi, or any other of a million ethnic groups that have at some point reached a criyical mass in terms of nationalist hatred of another group, but perhaps that is exactly what we need to be alert to.

We are all human and all capable of getting whipped up into a destructive frenzy and we must always be vigilant that our siciety does not make the same mistakes as before.

Democracy as we know it is a recent phenomenon.

The absence of war in western Europe is a recent phenomenon.

We live in politically luxurious times.

The only insurance that we have against the regression of society is our own participation in democracy.

Therefore we need to guard against Apathy and racist lies to ensure the longevity of our freedom.

The wolf is ever at our door and in this country one of its manifestations is the BNP.

We may not be happy with Lib Lab or Tory, but our current political reality is a million miles better than our ancestors of 60 years ago and before that.

The BNP represents a return to the Jungle.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM

So what is the incentive to work?


Your income will go up.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

The final point of my previous post is that a 2 parent family would not qualify to live off the state so that is also a Myth put about to create resentment.



For the purposes of this thread, I don't care who is or isn't a racist, but the views being shared on the subject of sponging immigrants on the one hand and the pointlessness of working on the other are unsupported and uninformed fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:39 AM

Ake


"encouragement of immigration as a method of wage control"

Where is the evidence of this?



"As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread."


And the thing it has in common with their points is that it remains unsupported by any evidence.


Fairplay


"they looked and sounded like intelligent professionals who would be an asset to any party."


Are there any examples of this? so far the only examples provided here demonstrate the opposite.



Minimum wage is currently £5.70 an hour, set to go up to £5.80 in october.

40 hours a week and you earn £232 a week = 12,064 per year.

Add working tax credit and child tax credit ...


for a family with one working parent and one stay at home parent of two children with the above income this works out at

£5014.73


working and child tax credit calculator


Total income = £12,064 + £5014.73 = £17,078.73


If your earned income is less than £15,000 per annum you can also apply for asistance from housing benefit.


When I was on income support in London, I received around 17,500 a year in total icluding every type of benefit available including tax credit, child benefit, council tax benefit, housing benefit etc.

Thats in London.


A working family in London receiving the minimum wage could expect their housing allowance to bump their income up to around 20,000 a year.

Then there's child benefit etc which you receive regardless of your income.


The point is that you get more if you work and receive minimum wage than you do if you are on benefits.


A two parent family would not qualify for income support as only one is considered necessary to care for children - unless the working parent has already contributed significanty to their national insurance.- ie unless they have already been working for years.



Myth No. 2 - you get more for signing on than you do for working on minimum wage.

Ake - have you ever worked for the minimum wage? Have you ever survived solely on benefits?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 08:17 AM

Richard..my policy is that encouragement of immigration as a method of wage control is bad economically and bad socially, by that I mean the policy is sure to cause racial tension.

I've never read any of Mr Griffins speeches but I will take your word that he is a racist....that does not make anyone who supports any particular policy of the BNP automatically racist.

My policy would be misunderstood by many here as anti -immigration and therefore racist....but as an intelligent guy with a very good grasp of the machinations of politicians, I hope you personally understand that I am about as far from racism as it is possible to get.
One of my best friends in an area that almost completely "white" is a very dark skinned Indian from Goa.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:05 AM

Well Russ, I've been on the NHS website. Don't know what site you were on. The EHIC card entitles UK citizens to the same treatment in an EEA country as a resident of that country. So you are lying aren't you? If I have a heart attack in Romania I get the same state treatment as any other citizen of that country. It's all on the website.

In some EEA countries there are patient charges - like we have - for medicines, prosthesis, dentistry etc etc but these apply equally to us as they do to local citizens. UK citizens may be entitled to recover those in-country charges from the NHS on return to the UK.

We are entitled, for instance to go to Cyprus and have our teeth fixed (so long as we don't need dentures) at a flat-cost of EUR2 per visit. Bargain. A Cypriot coming here would have to pay our high NHS dentistry charges then recover the cost from his or her own government on return.

PROOF NHS WEBSITE

More to the point, we have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with a lot of non EEA countries.

Proof is on the link above. Below is a list of reciprocating countries.

Russ, how can it be that absolutley everything you ever say turns out to be untrue. Even on random pot-luck I'd have thought you might occasionally stumble upon a fact or two.

List of Non-EEA countries that have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with the UK: A-J
Anguila
Armenia
Australia
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegovina
British Virgin Islands
Croatia
Falkland Islands
Georgia
Gibraltar
Isle of Man

List of Non-EEA countries that have reciprocal healthcare arrangements with the UK: K-Z
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Macedonia
Moldova
Montserrat
New Zealand
Russia
St Helena
Serbia and Montenegro
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Turks and Caicos Islands
Uzbekistan
Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 06:49 AM

Well, ake, assuming that you DON'T mean that the immigrants should not get benefits to which eveyone else is entitled, then no, your policy is not the same as the BNP.

I hope your policy is "a living wage, and if necessary, a safety net from all". It doesn't read that way above.

AFAIK the BNP policy is "a living wage for white English and other similar racial groups as defined in our membership policy - but no others"

However, yes, the right-turns and lies of B. Liar were and remain sickening - but less sickening than the BNP, most of whom are knuckle-dragging unintelligent thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 06:40 AM

Ake,

As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread.

But unlike the BNP members you haven't (I presume) concluded that the right medicine to heal the body-politic or a fractured society is a lethal dose of cyanide or the nuclear option (voting BNP).

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Russ Meyer
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:26 AM

Emma, wrong wrong wrong

"The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) can be used to cover any necessary medical treatment due to either an accident or illness within the European Economic Area (EEA).
The EHIC entitles the holder to state-provided medical treatment within the country they are visiting."

It's a patch up job ONLY. Just checked, if you need a major operation,your heart packs in, you stroke and it could cost you a leg !

Facts my dear, always check first before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:22 AM

As far as I can see the point I made above about mad govt policy is the same as is being made by th BNP members on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:17 AM

Richard come on! I agree with you on most things, but you know I did not mean immigrants or their families should be deprived of a living wage or benefits if they require them.
The problems are all symptoms of mad government policy which Blair was composing "on the hoof" in the days when he and the New Labour Project were seen as the saviours of humanity. In fact all they did this fine "left leaning liberal govt" was discredit us in the eye of world as bloodthirsty warmongers and saddle our children and grandchildren with a National Debt which will make their lives very unpleasant indeed, while Fuhrer Blair earns millions, is employed as a "peace envoy":0) and is being touted as the next president of the EU!!

Time to re-set your guns you mighty hunters after truth and justice....get you priorities right!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Royston
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:02 AM

Ake,

Don't make me regret responding civilly to you.

No I have never had to try, fortunately, living on the minimum wage. My point is that Eastern European workers cannot *legally* be treated any worse than an indigenous worker.

Lots of folk have to eke out an existence on minimum wage, my point is to ask why should we regard Polish min wage workers with suspicion? As you said that, for Polish workers "Something doesn't add up".

In my experience of living cheek by jowl with Polish migrants and counting a few of them as friends (some of the mudcatters have met at least one of my Polish friends and his wife and baby daughter), I would suggest that they come here for jobs they sourced through contacts or Polish agencies and have assistance from their employers with accommodation. Or they club together to live in close-quarters in cheap private-sector rented housing. Then they work bloody hard to improve their lot.

I thought I was being sarcastic enough in describing min wage as "What HM government considers fair..." I would be happy to be even less subtle in future; just let me know what you prefer.

I am not left-leaning or politically liberal, I am a socialist. I vote for socialist-values candidates whenever one is available to me - that is normally 'Left List' or Green Party. Otherwise I vote Liberal as the best of a bad lot. One thing I will agree on with many here is that Labour sold itself down the river in 1993/4 and should be ashamed to call itself "Labour"

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: fairplay
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:00 AM

Some posts have depicted BNP members as 'knuckle-dragging skinhead thugs' or similar. I've never met a BNP member AFAIK but I did look at a video of some green conference on their website and they looked and sounded like intelligent professionals who would be an asset to any party.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on new desktop
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:52 AM

Actually, Ake, when I first got onto lecturing, by the time I had paid for my travel, and allowed for travelling time and preparation time, I was working for well below minimum wage.

But you miss the point. The workers you object to should be getting the same wage as anyone else on the minimum wage. Insofar as that minimum wage suffices for indigenous labour it likewise suffices for non-indigenous labour.

Family credit and so on assist on a means-tested basis, in general without regard to origin, which is again right.

You do however correctly identify that the taxpayer, via tax, subsidises the low-wage economy (so enabling employers to pay low wages) to the benefit of capital, so the government is playing Robin Hood in reverse - steal from the poor, give to the rich.

However, if you argue that guestworkers should not receive the same consideration as indigenes, then I regret to say that that appears to be a discrimination based on race.

Really must do some work - I was just adding another PC to the network and got sidetracked.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:43 AM

Ake, I absolutely agree that free speech and thought must be defended otherwise we play into the hands of those who use suppression of ideas against us. That's why I'm against calling on the state to ban fascist organisations because historically those are same the powers the state readily uses to suppress dissent and radicalism. Ordinary people using their own power of thought, word and deed to oppose and expose fascism for what it is at a grassroots level is an entirely different matter. Part of the process is discourse and the battle of ideas. Personally I will use some of my own free speech to counter the views of divisive, authoritarian organisations who use their freedom of speech to promote themselves dishonestly in order further their visions of a fascist state. Luckily, we aren't in the position the Spanish found themselves in in the thirties and I agree that we are unlikely to be. Part of ensuring that is to continue to nip the ideas of the far right in the bud with better counter arguments...