95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!

Subject: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:30 AM

WARNING!

Hugely angry right now, so there may well be bad language to follow!





OK.....


I have just had the Occupational Therapist from Torbay Care Trust around, to see about putting handles on the wall in our bathroom, so that my 95 year old ex-mother-in-law can get in and out of the bath.

This is how it went.....

She sat down with her, asked her how she was, what she was able to do, how she copes.

Vi (Violet) told her that she'd been 'washing down' for the past 7 weeks, since we came here. (This was because Torbay did not consider her 'critical', after hearing she was doing this, when I first rang them, and therefore they didn't come round for 7 bloody weeks!)

So, she's interviewed about how she is...She tells the lady about her stiff shoulders, how she has trouble lifting her arms up and down, but that she forces herself through the pain, because that's how she's always been, a fighter...

She told her about her gippy tummy, her IBS syndrome....that she's registered blind and very deaf, although she now has hearing aids which have improved her life greatly (and mine)....She told her about Mick, her husband who died 10 years ago, reliving moments from that time, getting tearful....

And the woman listened....took notes....

Then, we all went into the bathroom, where Vi showed her how she stands in front of the basin to wash down. She told her how she washes her feet in a bowl, holding on tight to the basin....She told her how she washes her hair, even though it's hard for her to do.

Then she told her how, in Sidmouth, she had a bath twice a week, got into the bath on her own...(she's a hugely determined ol' lady, who refuses to give in, despite her difficulties...)

The woman looked at the bath...and suggested a wooden seat to go across the bath. The way, Vi could sit on it safely, pull the shower curtain across and use the shower handle to wash herself.

But she wasn't happy with that, Vi, that is...saying she'd prefer the handles....but the lady wouldn't let her have them, as she considered them far more of a risk than the seat..

I stood there watching, listening....waiting....

We went back into Vi's room and the lady started to talk.

She told Vi that she was terribly sorry, but she didn't meet The Criteria and therefore the Authority couldn't provide her with the handles........or........the seat!


Well..........................

.....I went quiet..........very quiet.......DANGEROUSLY quiet!!!!!!

And then....THEN...the flood poured out!!!!!


"Pardon?"

"We can't provide her with the handles, as she's not 'critical'."

"Scuse me????????   She's NINETY FIVE YEARS OLD AND SHE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE A BATH!!!!"

"No, you don't understand..."

In my head I thought..."Oh no, I fucking understand alright!!!!!"

"You see...Torbay Care Trust has no money. We have NO money. None.
We are millions of pounds in debt and Gordon Brown has now frozen any more money from coming into the NHS"

"The BLOODY ****COUNTRY**** IS BANKRUPT!" I said!

I then erupted even more, not at the woman, as I know it's not her fault, she's just 'carrying out orders'.....but when she asked me what I thought of the decision I told her.

I told her with tears in my eyes that my beautiful country has been bled fucking dry by corrupt corporate souless bastards who don't give a shit about ANYONE!! I told her that this was IMMORAL! I told her that I was ready to go to anyone..ANYONE about this! I asked her for the head of the Trust Care, but she told me I had to write to him in the correct manner, follow the right procedure, before they'd respond!

I ranted! I raged! I wept!

And through it all, little Vi sat there, bewildered, utterly bewildered! Born in 1914, lived through two world wars...no trouble to anyone, never been a trouble even to her doctor and the fucking NHS won't even pay for handles for her...telling her that she's just fine and bloody dandy to carry on standing in front of her basin, putting her near on 100 year old feet in a bloody bowl!!!!!!!!!!!


PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF! as Bruce would say!!

In fact...F'ing PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTT


"I can see you're angry, Lizzie" she said....


"Angry!??????????????? NO! I am wayyyyyyyy beyond ANGER!!!!!"

I told her about the corruption, the apathy, the Orwellian times we now live in, the bastards who see 95 year olds as just more fodder to cut back on, whilst they wine and dine themselves in their posh bloody offices!!!

"We've been waiting for something like this to happen..." she told me, staring at me in a strange way...."We KNEW it was just a matter of time"


"This isn't 'just a matter of time" I told her...."this IS The Time!"


She then suggested to Vi that she bought the handles herself and Age Concern would come and fit them for free....??????????!!!!!!!!!

"She's a pensioner! And why the hell should she HAVE to pay! This is immoral! I'm going to the press about this, BIGTIME!"

"I'll pay, dear" said Vi.....

"No, Vi, you are NOT paying for something that you should have for free! This is WRONG! It is absolutely bloody WRONG!"

So...the Occupational Therapist left, promising to send me details of what to do, HOW to complain........

And the air turned blue with verbal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'s!



Then, I rang BBC Radio Devon...and I exploded on the phone to them, asking if they'd be interested in doing the story...and I practically cried to them to DO something about what is happening in my country, my father's BELOVED country!!!!

I told them of the music, the songs that are being written about all of this, but which are not being allowed 'out there'..

I told them how all those years back, I stood and listened to one woman on BBC Radio Devon complaining about the Poll Tax....and how, within days that interview had gone to every local BBC station, then to the Big Guys in London..and how just a week or so later the whole country was on the Poll Tax Marches, bringing our cities to a complete standstill!   I was on that march, with my little girl, in her pushchair..

Well, my little girl is now 22 years old and my beloved country is in absolute SHITE and no-one gives a fuck at the top!!!!!!

They count their pennies...they make us work for 6 hours, on basic wages with no tea breaks, no lunch breaks, even telling us that if we WANT a tea break, they'll take 15 minutes OFF our salary!!!???????????

95 years old! And they expect her to stand with her feet in a bowl to wash them, because they don't consider that she needs to have a bath!!

Well, fuck the lot of 'em!!!

Radio Devon said they'd ring me back...and they did exactly that, minutes later....

Tomorrow, at 10.30am they are sending a reporter around and asked if I'd be willing to go live on radio and TV. I said "Absobloodylutely!"

I told her that this country is Tinderbox Dry with Anger...and ALL it needs is just one match!

I've decided to be the match!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:30 AM

Could this be in BS please, Joe...

Sorry, so angry that I forgot to put the prefix in!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

Wish I could hear it in Essex...

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:47 AM

Get in touch with Help the Aged for some advice. When my Mum was widowed they came round and assessed her home and put new locks and window catches on for her. Even if they didn't do the same for your Mum ehy might be able to help in other ways. I would have thought, though, that this sort of thing was for the Social Services department of the her local council rather than the NHS.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:19 PM

Maybe the Occupational Therapist reads the Borchester Echo or listens to the Archers? :-P

Seriously though - Get in touch with another agency, as already suggested. Above all, keep calm when dealing with beurocracy. I know it's difficult but the people you are dealing with are only human. If you rant and rave to them they will switch off and the one to suffer will be your ex MIL.

Good luck

DeG

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

Sheesh. In this country we put in our own bluddy handles. Has the 'mother' country forgotten how?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Alice
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM

That's what I was wondering. A screwdriver, some screws, a handle, easy.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:35 PM

I thought the same thing, Ebbie. The seats, which are much safer, range from $18 to $150 depending on features.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Alice
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

Here's one that you don't even have to screw into the wall, less than $20. http://www.brandsonsale.com/bath-tub-safety-handles.html

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:43 PM

Scary to think that this poor old lady and the children have to deal with hysterics and obscenities over something that could be handled with a few phone calls and some common sense.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:46 PM

Somebody needs to look up "scoial care".

Expecting the NHS to do this is like asking them to lag your boiler.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

"Scary to think that this poor old lady and the children have to deal with hysterics and obscenities over something that could be handled with a few phone calls and some common sense."


Yeah, you're so right, Mary...I should just roll over and play dead.

I should have just sat there and said "Oh, I SAY, thanks *awfully* for that, m'dear. How utterly silly of me to think the NHS would care about a 95 year old lady and see what they could do to make her life more easy.

I do awfully apologise for being so thick and stoopid!

I'll go away, back to Prolesville and live my little life in the way I'm supposed to..."



Well..................................................
















F*ck that!


Tell me, WHY do you think Kate brought round the details of who to ocmplain to, so fast? WHY do you think Radio Devon rang me back within minutes?

My country is in a terrible state and you know why, because people have STOPPED caring!   They shy away from anger, conditioned to just 'accept' these days...

Well........


















..f*ck that, too!




WHAT has happened to us all?

Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you think the NHS is right? Or is it that being in America, if that's where you are, that you have no concept of what the National Health Service is about???

In Sidmouth, 10 years back, I rang Social Services and they were round in days, 2 handles fitted safely and securely. And that was that. Vi then could have a bath with dignity again.

Now, *she* is expected to buy those handles herself, then Age Concern, a charity, is expected to put them in? Kate even turned up with a 'Handyman' leaflet, with names of local Handymen who'd help out?????????

What will we have in another 10 years then, if we all roll over and play dead? No beds for 95 year olds because there aren't enough and the 75 year old deserve them more?

No medication for 95 year olds, because they're costing too much money and the new policy is to just let them die, get them out of the way.

Already, I have been told that a little, frail lady, is not considered eligible, under The New Criteria to have a bath because she can manage to stand up on her own. The fact she can't GET IN the bath, without handles, is irrelevant.

When my Dad was alive, we had District Nurses, and they came round free of charge to bathe people in their own homes. She used to stay for a cup of tea too, and have a quick chat to Dad. He so looked forward to her coming each week. It was as much about social care as health...Just after he died, they stopped the District Nurses. You have to pay these days to have people help you have a bath...

This is not just about 'handles'....it's about morality and so much that is wrong...and pathetic remarks such as the one I have quoted above, do nothing to help, because people who give in all the time are actually creating this terrible situation.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:26 PM

"I would have thought, though, that this sort of thing was for the Social Services department of the her local council rather than the NHS. "

Maybe you need to make a few phone calls and see which agency is actually responsible for installing handles. Here in the US, if I call Medicare regarding an issue handled by Social Security I will not get service. If I yell, scream obscenities and claim that the country is in ruins, they will assume I am a nut job and hang up.

Once again you are off and running in six diiferent directions blaming everyone for everything rather than settling down and handling your mother-in-law's need for a simple safety bar.

"I ranted! I raged! I wept!"
I am sure that helped a lot.

"And through it all, little Vi sat there, bewildered, utterly bewildered! "
I don't doubt it.

"Well, my little girl is now 22 years old and my beloved country is in absolute SHITE and no-one gives a fuck at the top!!!!!!

They count their pennies...they make us work for 6 hours, on basic wages with no tea breaks, no lunch breaks, even telling us that if we WANT a tea break, they'll take 15 minutes OFF our salary!!!???????????"

WHAAAA?????? How will this help get your mother-in-law a safety bar?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:27 PM

Well, rant aside, I put this to my wife, who is an occupational therapist.

She says that hanging on to handles while standing upright to wash, especially a foot wash, is highly unsafe. A tub transfer bench, which extends over the side of the tub so you sit down and then swing your feet in, is the professionally recommended way to go. If a shower chair, which sits inside the tub, is provided, she recommends a tub-side grab bar such as in the link Alice noted or a wall grab bar for support while your mother steps into the tub. Simpler and cheaper and if there is room and your mother doesn't want to get into the tub, a small chair next to the sink, positioned so she is seated when she washes her feet in the foot bath, might work.   

Bathroom equipment is not a covered service under Medicare in the US, although it may be covered under some insurance plans - purchase and installation is the patient's/patient's family's responsibility.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

"Yeah, you're so right, Mary...I should just roll over and play dead."

No. Calmly and methodically make the phone calls to the various agencies until you find the one that is responsible for providing this service. If your goal is to help your mother-in-law, do it. If your goal is to have another hysterical rant at the invisible "Them" who seem to plague your very existence, then leave the poor old lady out of it.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:41 PM

Lizzie I read your description of the situatioin, and your rant, and I want to thank you for the effort. I think it brings to the fore the different expectations we bring to a simple, basic issue. Not all of us are going to have the fortune to live to your ex M.I.L's age, but the majority of us will experience issues of requiring assistance from a bureacracy to meet needs we can't meet on our own.

I had similar reactions to the other Americans, that the lady in question deserved a bath, but the seat would seem to be a safer way to go and it is a relatively minor purchase. I have health insurance at my new job but it would be below my deductible unless it was a prescribed item.

You have a different background and experience, and you got crosswise with the deliverer of bad news. One aspect of the situation that would frost me is to have someone spend a lot of time with me, get a lot of details, and then give me the information that they won't help, they can't help, they came to the door with the expectation that they wouldn't help no matter what I told them.

With the age of the person, the self respect that comes with being able to look after oneself, I would follow the line that you solve the immediate problem because it will make life better, just as the hearing aides did (Did those get fully funded by NHS?). I would count my blessings and my friends, and maybe even make peace if not apologize to someone who at least took the trouble to pay you a house call and speak to the issues.

Thank you for writing as you did, all the best....

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:42 PM

Re the bathtub Grab Rail Bar.... be VERY careful... read the fine print. These are only to steady a standing person. If you are getting down into, or up out of, the tub, these can be exceeding dangerous as they are not designed to take the forces needed to assist these movements. They take vertical force but will not take the horizontal forces or torques from other movements.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:44 PM

Lizzie
If you so much as use one expletive on The radio, they will cut you off. So calm down and try to be calm and collected, otherwise you will not be helping this lady.

Which town or village are you living in in Torbay?

Sometimes Village Hall committees do an aweful lot to help the elderly and the parish council could help you there.

Ther are normally lots of people willing to help indeed do things for now't if you use your noddle and calm down and putting your brain into the right gear.

I have people I can get in touch with down there as I used to live in Paignton, but they are unlikely to help if you swear and get angry like you are doing now.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

Lizzie - Just remembered. We have a SPARE bath lift that we do not use. If it can be of any use just PM me. Forget the hystrionics and arguments. This is a genuine offer of help. I you want to take me up on it PM me with your details and I will send you a photo and full details. Dang - more than that. If you want I will post it as well!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM

My apologies - That should have been a PM. Mea Culpa - PM on it's way as well...

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Zen
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:56 PM

Out of temporary retirement to empathise with Lizzie on this.

For those not in the UK... this is something that would have once normally been dealt with under the UK care system that we all pay into.

I expect had it been a dependant of mine I might have been somewhat annoyed as well given that this government has bailed out the banksters to the tune of some £400 billion.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:57 PM

This is a serious question. Why ask the government for help? Is this something you can afford to buy and install yourself? If not you - is there another family member you can ask to buy and install these items? In the time it talks to talk to a radio ot TV station these bars could be installed already. Or maybe I'm missing something.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:58 PM

Lizzie; when you go to the greengrocers, do you swear at them for not having ironmongery? Fitting bath handles etc. is nothing to do with the NHS in most areas, it's a Social Services responsibility. Contact them, ask for an OT assessment (they employ OTs too). Social Care is, of course, means tested (thank you, Margaret Thatcher)so your relative may have to contribute some of the cost.
The reason the NHS is tightening its belt has nothing to do with inefficiency of heartlessness; for that we can thank the bankers who precipitated the recession, and required all the spare cash to stop the system going under (doesn't seem to have stopped them trousering huge bonuses though).
Venting your rage on low paid public servants is counterproductive; lots of money will be spent on investigating your claims and putting silly rules in place that will make it even harder to do their jobs. Please think about what you are doing, and try using the correct channels first.
Tim

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:22 PM

"...as she considered them far more of a risk than the seat"

Maybe she's right there.

And what on earth is the problem in putting in the handles yourrself?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

My experience (my old mum died at 95 early this year) is that the local county council and, if it exists, the local borough council act in cahoots over support for elderly people. The NHS only gets involved if the elderly person lands up in hospital - the hospital has to contact the local authority as they can't just discharge the person in case inadequate support is present back at home.

My mum's case was slightly different to Lizzie's ma in law as mum lived in a council house - so they had to provide stuff like bath handles. However, for most people, provision of stuff like carers, wheelchairs, handles, bath seats, Zimmer frames, even stairlifts is down to the local council(s) -there will be a person in the local care department who is does proper assessments. Councils HAVE to employ people like this (errrr....how long this will continue to be true after the next election is a bit of a question mark!)

The current received wisdom however is that local authorities should try to keep old people in their own place as long as possible as it costs far more if they are in residential care or whatever. Some authorities are more zealous than others of course but that's life/politics.

There is also help and advice available from organisations like Age Concern, Help the Aged etc. A friend of mine actually managed to get a "new" kitchen for his old mum, installed and all, from Help the Aged, even though she was a householder, not a tenant, and he's not a con artist!

Having said all that, the issue of "who you gonna call" is a bit of a minefield, as my sister and I found. It also took us months to get everybody's correct numbers on both our mobiles, including carers, council employees, doctors, pharmacists, etc etc etc ad infinitum.

Hope this gets sorted Lizzie, I know it's difficult - having just got over my mum, my wife's mum is now very confused and we have to go through the whole care/assessment/angst/upset again - at 150 miles distance this time.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:57 PM

Lizzie, your lack of self-control is totally counterproductive. Read and learn.

I am currently dealing with a recalcitrant bureaucracy regarding public transportation that I need. I am unable to walk and must use a wheelchair. I am also unable to transfer from my wheelchair to and from an automobile because of the difference in heights between the seat of the wheelchair and the seats of the auto. So—a good alternative that the county in which I live offers to disabled people who qualify (show a genuine need for the service) are a fleet of vans with wheelchair lifts and tie-downs, driven by qualified drivers. This is a service mandated by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires that public transportation be available to the disabled, as well as a number of other things, such as public buildings, theaters, etc, be wheelchair accessible.

I used the "Metro Access" van service for several years. I call a day or two in advance and schedule a ride to an appointment, and another ride home again. I found it very convenient, as did others who qualified for and used the service.

A few months ago, they began disqualifying people, or at least requiring them to come in for an interview and demonstrate that they actually needed the service. There were two reasons for this. First, there were a lot of people with minor disabilities who where perfectly capable of taking regular public transportation who were using the Metro Access van service for their personal buses. AND—due to budget deficits, they are trying to reduce the cost of the service, hence the service itself.

I was one of those disqualified.

So I scheduled an interview. They determined that I was not senile and could understand a bus schedule. And that I could, indeed, use the wheelchair lifts that the city buses are equipped with. So—on that basis, they decided that I didn't need the van service, I could ride regular public transportation.

This totally ignores the fact that, of the two bus stops nearest to where I live, one is five blocks away and down a dangerously steep hill, if one happens to be in a wheelchair. The other is four blocks away in the other direction: up a hill which is not quite as steep, but it is far too steep for me to push myself in my wheelchair. My arms and shoulders are simple not up to that.

Rather that yell and swear at those who told me that I didn't qualify for the service, I fixed the person sternly in the eyes and asked if there was an appeal process. She said there was. I needed to write a letter detailing my reasons why I disagreed with their judgment. Very well, annoying, but easy enough to do. I told her that that is exactly what I will do.

If that fails and I am still denied, I will, again, not shout and scream and make threats, I will contact the county council. The Metro van service us under their jurisdiction. If that fails to get action, I will contact my local state legislator—who happens to go to the same church that my wife does. I can carry that up the ladder if need be, contact my national Congressional Representative (Jim McDermott) and inform him that King County may be in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act (McDermott is a fierce people's advocate and is a member of the House Ethics Committee).

Someplace along the line (depending on the responses I get) I may very well contact the newspapers and a few of my local television news departments. They all have "consumer protection" departments, and they're all looking for a good crusade.

I know that I will prevail, and within a few weeks, I will have the Metro Access van service available to me.

Feel your anger, yes! It can give you the energy to bring about what you know is right. But—yelling, screaming, and swearing at those whose help you are going to need, whether they want to do it or not will accomplish nothing except to convince them, and others, that you are simply a nasty-tempered nut-case.

Cool it! Use you head!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:59 PM

I hesitate to join in on this because Lizzie thinks stalk her. But I went through all this ten years ago with my own mother 87 at the time.

It was the local authority OT who assessed her and provided the gear, including a specialised bath lift.

And we had no problems. In fact it was a problem giving the stuff back!!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

"No. Calmly and methodically make the phone calls to the various agencies until you find the one that is responsible for providing this service. If your goal is to help your mother-in-law, do it. If your goal is to have another hysterical rant at the invisible "Them" who seem to plague your very existence, then leave the poor old lady out of it."


I HAVE the correct department! Please, do not patronize me, Mary.

I used to damn well book up 25 open heart operations a week, organising the entire medical teams, hospitals, patients and the Cardiothoarcic Surgeon and Cardiologist I used to work for! They were the Heads of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, in London....Dr. Roworth Spurrell and Mr. Gareth Rees, so please....do NOT keep treating me like a f*cking idiot, OK?

Gee WHIZZ!!!!!!!!


No, the point that many of you are missing here is the MORALS of this. The more we all shrug our shoulders, go out and buy the handles and think..."Another thing lost..." then we put another stone in our own Coffin of England...and soon, soon she will sink so damn deep into the Mire of Apathy, that it will be impossible to drag her out!

Well, sod that for a game of soldiers!

My Dad did NOT go to war for his generation to be told they 'do not meet the criteria' at 95 years of age to be allowed the dignity of a bath!!!

Dad would be exactly the same age as Vi...and for those who aren't too sure, she is my EX mother-in-law, as I am divorced.

I will NOT give in....I will not submit, as so many others have done, because someone, somewhere, sometime HAS to stand up and say "ENOUGH!"


David, that's extremely kind of you. Thank you very much indeed. x


IF Torbay Care Trust, which is also part of Torbay Council is bankrupt...and they are...then HOW has this happened, and WHY? And if Gordon Brown has stopped payments to the NHS for the next two and a half years, then again, WHY?

Villan, I can actually be very controlled when I want to, but believe you me, I can also lose it. I lost it on the phone to Radio Devon, yet STILL they rang me back ...and she sounded desperate to come round as fast as she could, because I said that we need to blow everything open in this country, not just handles in a bathroom!

I am sick to death of people who have taken all that my Father stood for, all that Vi stands for, and spat on it!

Honesty, integrity, determination, true grit....It has all been replaced by corruption and cowardice!

It is shaming! Utterly shaming!

The Occupational Therapist *wanted* me to complain! She could see in my eyes that I the light she needed to get this blown apart!

South West Water....another bunch of Bastards! They charge the HIGHEST water rates in the country! Again, even their OWN staff have asked me to complain, and believe you me, I have ranted to them these past months....They can't afford their water bills either...

I mean...

What the hell has happened when people lie awake at night worrying about paying for water?????????? Water meters are the most corrupt things. Yes, if you are on your own, or there are just 2 of you, then you save money, but if you have a family...forget it....and once The Bastards put one in, they will NEVER remove it. ??????? I'm lucky because Vi has IBS and gets a pension, so therefore I can claim the Water Sure scheme, but...even on that I'll still be paying more than my friend does, who lives in a very wealthy part of Hampshire, in a large detached house...????

Someone once sang "There are Cutthroats, Crooks and Conmen running this land..." and they inspired me even more to fight...but it seems that for some reason, even they have given in...and that saddens me deeply...because the traditional world is NOT where they should be, but the political one..out there, carrying the torch as they have have always done....

Those of you have been so kind, thank you very much, I really appreciate it...

Those of you who have told me to do this myself and just not bother with the raging....NEVER!

Vi is 95 and she has never given in! My Dad never gave in until the day he died, even though he could barely breathe, due to his emphysema..and he went to war for me, even though I wasn't born back then...

My Dad went to war for ALL of us...

We are at War at the moment, not just in Afghanistan, but at war with those we cannot see, those we are kept away from...and for way too long, they have been winning.

Well, they ain't gonna win anymore!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Dave, that struck a chord. We found it quite difficult to return local authority provided stuff too.   

In spite of the aggro there can be a certain (grim) humour involved. The local care supremo, feeling guilty over a delay to a stairlift, wangled a wheelchair, although my Mum said she didn't want it. Some mobility jobsworth then delivered said item while I was not present, leaving it where Mum would inevitably fall over it - and she did. Result - carer called emergency services (and, thank God, me), trip to A & E, 2 day stay in hospital. After my mother's death a few months later, the unused wheelchair sat in her house for over a month until the mobility van turned up and chitties and wheelchair were exchanged.

On balance though the services in the county/suburban areas of the UK are pretty good - the caring services, once they do grind into action, fall over themselves (perhaps an unfortunate phrase!) to help. I just hope it all carries on when us baby boomers start needing carers etc (at this rate in my case about a fortnight from now.....)

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:14 PM

Speaking as a baby boomer......

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:41 PM

The OT is the right person.

Gravesham fitted bath handles without demur for my late mother, and, in a different house, for my late father before her.

Lizzie may be a little -er- expressive, but credit where credit is due.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:38 PM

Might be worth noting that because this sort of thing isn't an NHS function, provision varies between the different nations of the UK. Social care is in theory better funded in Scotland - in practice, when resources are limited, there are always going to be hoops to jump through.

I tend to be rather unsympathetic to such trivial requests, though. Something like this can only cost in double figures and should be doable by anybody who can handle a power drill and a screwdriver. It's not like needing a home oxygen set or a stairlift, and Lizzie is hardly impoverished.

I was brought up to know how to bodge things - so when I needed to learn simple denture repairs and to make my girlfriend a custom-moulded fibreglass wrist support, I just did it rather than demand that some professional step in. The denture job wasn't as good as what a dental tech would have done; the wrist support was probably better than a hospital would have produced since I was willing to take longer getting it right. On another forum I was treated to an interminable saga by a woman who couldn't get some gizmo sized just right for her disabled husband. She dragged the fight out for months on end insisting that the hospital provide it and leaving her hubby to get steadily worse from immobility, when 20 quid's worth of Dexion, tubing and bolts could have done the job in an afternoon, needing no more skill than a kid playing with Meccano. Self-righteous, sadistic dimwit.

An inspired book about bodging: Victor Papanek, "Design for the Real World". It ought to be on school curricula.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:08 PM

We're both on pensions but managed to afford to put in a grab handle in the bathroom.

What you have to remember is that there are a growing number of elderly people, with the baby boomer generation coming into the age group and that means increased strain on the system, even without the worldwide recession that has caused even more problems. In a perfect world we would all have the safety net of social services to rely on, but, if this was the case right now just think about what it would cost, per capita, to provide all that assistance. There would be some royal screaming from just about every taxpayer then.

It sounds as if you are living in the same house. Can you not afford to go out and buy this item and get it installed by Age Concern? Vi is going to have to wait even longer for her bath while you stand on principle, isn't she?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:01 AM

'Might be worth noting that because this sort of thing isn't an NHS function, provision varies between the different nations of the UK.'

... & even between different Health Authorities. When my late wife had difficulties caused by her Parkinsons disease, the local [Cambs] *District Nursing* service were wonderful, two of them coming round to assess her needs, then sending a man round within 48 hours to fit a bath-shower stool [we already had handles as they came with our bath, otherwise they assured us they would have been provided also], handles for in/out of bed, &c.; they also carefully checked that we had such necessities as a dimpled rubber shower-mat.   After she died, a single phone call brought another man to come & take them all out again.

So it seems that Lizzie is unfortunate in that Cornwall is not so well furnished with such services. What experiences have those under other health authorities had?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:24 AM

Just to clarify; in these cases the assessment of need is done by an Occupational Therapist. These are employed either by the NHS or the Local Authority Social Services Department. The budget for provision of equipment and home aids is held by Social Services. No amount of yelling at the NHS staff will produce a result, as they do not control the allocation of resources, and nor do they carry out the work. This is done either by directly employed Social Services staff or (more likely) private contractors working on behalf of Social Services.
Lizzie; I'm not questioning your competence here, only your willingness to listen to good advice. If you want to resolve this, your first port of call should be the case manager at Social Services, and if that doesn't work, try involving your local Councillor. MP's can be useful too, as a sort of battering ram to remove logjams. Try a low-key approach first, as going straight to the press (who are scum and looking for a sensationalist 'angle'that will probably not help Vi at all) will just produce a defensive reaction and may well entrench the situation.
Having said all that, if you really want to fix this, do what I did when my Mum had her hips replaced; buy a rail and fix it, or get someone from Age Concern (who get funding from Social Services) to do it for you. It's a quick and easy job, I just used two sturdy towel rail brackets and a length of steel tubing. Six screws, fifteen minutes at the most, and it cost me £11.
Hope you get this sorted soon, but be calm!
Tim

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:24 AM

"This is not just about 'handles'....it's about morality and so much that is wrong...and pathetic remarks such as the one I have quoted above, do nothing to help, because people who give in all the time are actually creating this terrible situation."

Only partly. I heard about a case yesterday. In our area treatment for chiropody is by appointment and always has been. In this case an old gentleman turned up and wanted treatment there and then. The appointment system was explained to him but he was not interested: he wanted his appointment immediately. So it was again explained that the only way he could get treated that day was if someone did not turn up for their appointment; however as it happened in the other building about 10 miles away there had already been a cancellation: did he want that appointment? No: he wanted to be treated where he was, now.

After a few hours a district nurse arrived on other business and the staff persuaded her to squeeze seeing him in between her other commitments.

He has since put in a formal complaint because he did not get seen immediately. As all complaints have to be followed through properly, that's another cost put on the system.

So I don't accept that it is "people who give in all the time who are creating this situation"; there is also a lot of abuse in the form of people demanding that they receive special treatment like this man; initiating complaints processes that require substantial time and effort (since if they are upheld it could be very expensive for the NHS); not turning up for appointments; demanding the approval of expensive drugs that extend cancer patients lives by a few months thus absorbing money that would otherwise for more basic care like district nurses...

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:25 AM

Torbay is in Devon, not Cornwall

http://www.multimap.com/maps/#map=50.45145,-3.55157|13|4&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:50.45177:-3.55792:14|Torbay|Torbay, Cockin

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:40 AM

Oh yes: sorry. So Why "Lizzie Cornish"? or is that her real name, maybe?

***Those who keep asserting that OTs from Social Services are the only people involved, anywhere, nationwide, & the NHS have nothing to do with it, clearly haven't read my last post. It obviously varies according to area. Round here, in Cambs, it is the District Nursing service, part of NHS, who are responsible. & a fine job they do too.***

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:08 AM

Lizzie Cornish is not her real name - anymore than I was christened folkiedave. And its her (ex) mother-in-law who is having the problem, she could be anywhere.

As far as I can see Torbay Care Trust works this as a joint enterprise, social services/health service.

As for them not having any money, nonsense. Is the Chief Executive getting paid? Then they have money, they have just chosen to spend it somewhere else.

One of the problems is that I am not sure Mudcat is the best place to be discussing this. Two reasons.

There are other places (forums or to be pedantic fora) that deal with this far better. They often have lay people that have developed strategies for dealing with what I suspect are common problems.

The second is that Lizzie (IMHO) does have previous as far as rants are concerned and sometimes her version of the truth is not always to be believed. Thus people - frankly including me - are wary of what she posts.

I am not going into the whys or wherefores of this particular one. We may get both sides of the story if Radio Devon follow it through. In fact they may have done so by now.

I look forward to hearing some feedback.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: folktheatre
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM

I can't be bothered to read this whole thread. It's a monster. Anyway, I think we all have a right to care and look after each other. If we expect to government to do it for us we'll get nowhere. I understand your frustration but do your best. And vent your anger over the radiowaves cos it might make people realise we have an obligation to each other. It's something we're rapidly forgetting.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:10 AM

So, Lizzie, has the family looked into doing the job themselves? It might be quicker, cheaper and less stressful than spending hours ranting and swearing at the care trust/NHS/Social Services and, indeed, us. What did Help the Aged advise? Or did you ignore that advice to spend more time typing asterisks?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:27 AM

What you may also find interesting Manitas - was how Lizzie told us on the home education thread - that her son was working with a builder.

Now it would seem to me that this would be a golden opportunity to give him some practical and useful experience especially since he doesn't go to school.

However has anyone heard the broadcast? Do be kind enough to tell us what happened someone!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:30 AM

our story of getting things done. edi was in hospital after an operation on her back, it left her needing a cathater. they would not release her until she could wee on her own.
i made five phone calls. the first to the doctor to ask if she could go there to get it changed. they gave me the number of the district nurse who said that was something they could help with. the district nurse i spoke to as very helpful and reassured me she could come to see her the day she was discharged.

the fourth to the hospital again and she was out the last back to the district nurse to tell her when she was getting out of hospital, and to make a time for her to come round the same day.

in the space of one hour they were getting ready to discharge her.

it wasnt my job to arrange this, it should have been done by the nurses, but it got the the right result as fast and as painlessly as possible.

the person who has my sympathies is your ex mother in law, who i am sure is hating all this fuss.

if it is truely for her, have you asked her what route she wants to take?
my guess is the one that gets it done without too much aggro.

oh and lizzie, i don't think you are aware of how much your ranting upsets others.
you seem to flit to another rant as soon as things get tough on another thread.

on the homeschooling thread, i asked you a question, you came back and attacked me,please have the decency to finish what you started.

i sincerly hope that this poor lady gets the things she needs, however you get there, she is the end goal, not proving some higher point.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM

As usual however there are things about Lizzie's posts where further explanation would be useful.

I told them of the music, the songs that are being written about all of this, but which are not being allowed 'out there'..

Which songs are these and where is out there?

If you are talking about particular artists did you name them?

What did Radio Devon say to all this?

I made an application to my local community station to have a folk music programme to get "the songs" "out there" and I now spend two hours a week doing just that. It really wasn't all that hard and I now renew without problem each six months. I started from absolute scratch almost two years ago so it is clearly possible. I have played many of the artists Lizzie complains about out not being heard, and have had a number of them in the studio and on the telephone to talk to.

Some time ago Lizzie said she wanted to have a programme of her own to "put the music out there."

I offered her some advice at the time as to what was needed to broadcast a folk music programme and I offered further help. It was there for the asking. I offered to tell her how mine was structured in the hopes that she might take some note and formulate a structure of her own. I wasn't looking for thanks but an acknowledgment would have been nice.

A few days ago Lizzie offered to speak about home education to any gathering of any group of teachers anywhere. I thought about helping her to arrange this - since I have some good contacts in the teaching world. But I decided against it after all.

Do try and think when you write Lizzie, please.

For someone who has done everything to do with heart surgery except it seems the operation itself, you don't always display the same skills on here.

Sorry for the thread drift but to make analogies can be useful.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:25 AM

Oh dear, do I hear chortling and gleeful hand rubbing. Look, just for once, forget it was Lizzie who posted, albeit in her inimitable style, and lets deal with the issue. Bath handles, which were deemed appropriate in East Devon are deemed not to be so in Torbay.
Did East devon have an ineffective OT, or was Torbay's decision financial rather than professional grounds.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

Slightly off topic: some cities in the States now require that new homes and renovations be done with handicapped accessibility. This includes handrails in the bath, doors wide enough to accomodate wheel chairs, ramps, etc. Well meaning but cost-wise a real burden for the average homeowner. It cost me $13000 to renovate a bath up to city code WITHOUT widening the doorway or making the bath tub handicapped accessible. An upstairs apartment leaked and completely destroyed my bath. Falling ceilings took out the tub. A real disaster. Given that no one with a handicap would be using the bath and that my apartment had an inside stairway entrance I didn't see a handicapped person ever buying the place but had a city inspector chosen to visit I would have been fined and forced to make the upgrades.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:31 AM

This will put the cat among the pidgeons

A LAVATORY built for the Queen is getting a £4,000 makeover – even though it has never had a royal flush in 54 years.

The loo was installed at Blackpool Opera House before the Queen's last visit in 1955. But it was never used and has been kept locked ever since.

Now, as the theatre prepares to host this year's Royal Variety Show in December, builders are busily refurbishing the loo, installing a new sink, mirror, doors and lights – and a brand new WC for the sovereign.

What can one say

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM

I hope someone puts cling film over the seat and leaves the loo roll holder empty! Err, what else? Maybe let off a stink bomb in there for good measure..

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

The thing that seems to have been ignored is that the OT appears to have come to the view that installing the handles would in fact be dangerous.

The question of whether installing the handles should be down to teh NHS or Social Services therefore doesn't really arise.

Theb OT may of course be mistaken in this matter, but it would be quite appropriate for her to use her professional judgment on something like this.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

We are looking at the bath lift option so I suspect Lizzie is reserving judgement. Should know by Thursday all being well.

DeG

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:52 AM

The actual point is that lizziecornish could have spent 10 minutes out of the past 24 hours wielding a power drill and screwdriver to affix a rail herself at minimal or zero cost as a temporary solution. And then another 10 minutes making an application for a walk-in shower to be installed which would be undoubtedly safer. It wouldn't even need a device to heat the water if all the hot air being generated were to be harnessed and would be, thus, highly energy efficient.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:13 AM

Oh dear, do I hear chortling and gleeful hand rubbing.

Not from me you don't. It's the old lady I feel sorry for. She deserves better.

My mum had the bath lift option and she loved it. It does need another person there but an old lady would.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

"The second is that Lizzie (IMHO) does have previous as far as rants are concerned and sometimes her version of the truth is not always to be believed. Thus people - frankly including me - are wary of what she posts. "



It will be on BBC local news, either tonight, or tomorrow night, in their 6.30pm slot. Also on Radio Devon too, although I've no idea what time...as John, who did the interview, has to film it, write it up, edit it, put it on radio and tv all himself.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

"Bath handles, which were deemed appropriate in East Devon are deemed not to be so in Torbay"

Perhaps that should be bath handles, which were deemed appropriate for one person in East Devon are deemed not to be so for a different person, with potentially a completely different state of overall fitness, in Torbay.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:39 AM

Good for you Lizzie.

it will be on BBC local news, either tonight, or tomorrow night, in their 6.30pm slot. Also on Radio Devon too, although I've no idea what time...as John, who did the interview, has to film it, write it up, edit it, put it on radio and tv all himself.

Shame it wasn't live though. As anyone who does it will tell you - there is nothing like the immediacy of a live broadcast.

When you say local news and Radio Devon - i assume you mean TV news.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:55 AM

Your fifteen minutes fame Lizzie.. How exciting!

Is it on BBC Radio, or the telly?
BBC Radio Devon??

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Maryrrf
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:10 AM

I have to admit to cringing whenever a Brit complains publicly about the NHS. I'm always afraid it will end up on Fox News, or in some Republican's speech, or that it will be picked up by one of the right wing radio talk show hosts and trumpeted, twisted, and propagandized as yet more evidence that the public health option would be a complete disaster.   

There are many of us in the US that would love to have the NHS or an equivalent comprehensive system that wouldn't let us down if we lose our jobs, don't work for a big enough company, get sick, can't pay the extortionate insurance premiums, etc. The NHS might not be perfect, but it seems to do okay by most people. That said, I hope this elderly lady gets taken care of by whatever means, and wish her well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

DMc G suggested

"Bath handles, which were deemed appropriate in East Devon are deemed not to be so in Torbay"

Perhaps that should be bath handles, which were deemed appropriate for one person in East Devon are deemed not to be so for a different person, with potentially a completely different state of overall fitness, in Torbay.


    Errm, no, it was the same person, Lizzies mother in law Vi, who lived in Sidmouth ( part of East Devon Council) and now lives in Torquay, part of Torbay Council. The implication being that she has been sen to need the handles....but the new council are less willing to pay.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:30 AM

Ok, I misunderstood that one.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

SINS... the government is doing that here too... passing laws which are too generalized because that's about all they CAN do. Then, a government employee has to follow/interpret those laws. As everyone knows, the first rule in modern survival is Cover Your Ass. So... they do. That is when the problems start.

I am now told that if I want to make a basement apartment, I must provide a separate access with a one hour fire separation and I must provide a one hour fire separation between floors. I told the lad that the egress calculations for my design were 22 seconds for the basement and 12 seconds for the main floor. Doesn't matter. I told him I was gonna build it anyway and the only way the city would get their building permit money was if he issued the permit. He said that I would be liable to fines and might be estopped from renting.

I said there was a little known common law term that would allow me to proceed to improve the existing building. He said that there was no provision for any "Grandfather Clause" or anything else he knew of. I asked, "Have you ever heard of "Common sense." or "Go fuck yourself?"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

Of course the woman in question may now be more infirm than when handles were fitted in her other home earlier or have a different design of bath!

Far too many unknowns to come to any decision re appropiateness or otherwise of the aide.

Myself I would tend to trust the 'expert's' decision (which did not seem to be based on cost but on her training as an OT) but, if I was prepared to take the risk with someone else's safety, fit one myself - they are readily available.

This version is not cheap but readily fitted to most baths is adjustable in height and being screwed to the floor is also very sturdy.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM

Dear MtheGM;
If you are referring to me when you state
***Those who keep asserting that OTs from Social Services are the only people involved, anywhere, nationwide, & the NHS have nothing to do with it, clearly haven't read my last post. It obviously varies according to area. Round here, in Cambs, it is the District Nursing service, part of NHS, who are responsible. & a fine job they do too.***
then let me clarify. I worked in the NHS for nearly 20 years, including twice leading a team comissioning and setting up a service for the provision of equipment for care at home. You clearly haven't read my post either; I made it very clear that OTs are employed by both NHS and Social Services, and either could be involved in doing the assessment, depending on circumstances. The District Nurses in Cambridgeshire DO NOT hold the budget for equipment. They carry out assessments of need, and the equipment is provided by a service which is either wholly Social Services run (most often) or a joint Social Services/NHS operation (increasingly rare, as these hybrids don't work very well.) It could be argued that this District Nurse assessment system is not ideal, as research suggests that OT input is crucial in getting the solution right.
A wider point; there is an argument that this should all come under the control of the NHS, but this is not possible because of the largely artificial division between 'health' care (which is free) and 'social' care (which is means tested and not free). It's a nonsense; who is responsible for the split? Step forward former Thatcher pin-up boy John Moore, aided and abetted by current Shadow Cabinet member Ken Clarke.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

Thank you for the clarification, Tim. Pragmatically, as you will gather, the Visiting Nurses' assessment worked very well for us, & whoever was i/c the budget clearly trusted them & promptly delivered what they recommended.
Michael

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

Gnu-Don't know where you are, but I'd think long and hard about either doing work on a rental unit without the building permit, or doing work that doesn't comply with the fire code.

Your "lad" told you, and it is perfectly true, that they can fine you, and stop you from renting, but he seems not to have mentioned that they can and will compel you to remove the non-complying work, and replace it with work that is up to code--at which point you will be wisest to hire a licensed and bonded contractor, because they will be scrupulously attentive to regulation, and if a contractor's work fails inspection, the contractor has to make it good, and if you fail inspection, you have to make good--

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:11 PM

Any British citizen who thinks they have a bad deal with Britain's national health care system ought to spend a little time trying to deal with the American health care non-system. A few encounters with health insurance companies, and they'd be back to hugging and adoring NHS, no matter what its occasional warts may (or may not) be.

The whole story as presented strikes me as missing a lot of facts and is heavily overlaid with anger, but having to install a couple of grab-bars in the bath yourself is a lot less life-threatening than having an insurance company you've paid large premiums to for years denying treatment for breast cancer on the basis of a "previous condition" (teenage acne).

You think I'm kidding? It's happened!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

MTed - I may be wrong but I believe gnu owns the house and is building a rental apartment in the basement. Too bad you didn't just "renovate" the basement and then decide to rent it.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:50 PM

SINS... I am exploring all avenues... >;-). Fact is, onerous laws can and WILL be circumvented with common sense.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

Yup - I hired a non NYC contractor.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

Where is Lizzie then?

She hasn't chained herself to a fence has she, or been locked up?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:37 PM

They'd have made him put the fire doors in anyway--Sin-and, more than likely, he'll have to provide a second means of egress for the basement, in addition to the private entrance.

You crack me up, Gnu--"onerous"! I love that. I can't wait to hear you explain that the fire codes are onerous to a municipal judge. They tend to differ, and, while no one person's word is law, they come awful close-

Just remember that those fire codes are intended to protect people's lives(yours included), and so people who try to get around them aren't regarded as benevolent public citizens.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

gnu, M.Sc.Eng., P.Eng.

Well over $250M of contracts under my belt.

34 years studying engineering, construction, law and codes.

And I KNOW bullshit when I see it. Fact is, the law is a guideline. Common sense will always prevail. I, as an engineer who participates in writing the codes, interpreting the codes, and enforcing the codes know that codes and laws are guidelines.

When there is a question, such as I have raised, regarding the misinterpretation of common sense, it is my right to appeal to good practice and due diligence and support my arguements if they are subject to bullshit.

Been there, done that, goin back to the well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

Err . and I can be as guilty as anyone - thread drift gentlemen.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:02 PM

Villan said

Where is Lizzie then?

She hasn't chained herself to a fence has she, or been locked up?


Funny, innit, Lizzie fires back immediately and at length, and you all cry 'the thead's been Lizzied'.

She does as you ask, and observes a decent pause, and you cry'where is she, how dare you deprive me of my lizzie bashing fix'

One thing or the other, eh!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: kendall
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:20 PM

I'm curious; who told the poor old woman that she couldn't have a bath?

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:29 PM

No No No
I will not respond.
I won't. I won't. I won't.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:31 PM

Please let us know how it turns out, Gnu.--and, what it all ends up costing you. I should have figured that you were an engineer;-)

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:49 PM

by no means am i lizzie bashing here.
it just seems to me to more about lizzie getting what she wants instead of vi getting what she needs.

for example, just because they would not fit handles have they recommended another agency take over vi's plight?

we have seen here that the handles requested might not be up to the task but we have not been told by lizzie if anything else was suggested.

it is very annoying when something that is needed does not get provided.
however i am sure there are better ways of getting this information than shouting and swearing at someone.

i am feeling sorry for the woman who was subjected to this ranting.
it must have been very intimidating to be in someones home on your own and to be set upon like that, from what we have been told she handled herself with dignity and more patience than i would have had.

lizzie, i hope that you get something that will help, there have been suggestions galore here.
maybe look into finding a product yourself and seeing whether the local council or social services can help pay and install it for you?

dealing with the red tape people (i would have called them buerotcrats, but i can't spell it) is never easy and you will find that you have to do most of the chasing. but you have to rememeber that most councils have been restricted money wise. and cannot help everyone the way that the employees would like to.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:50 PM

no pun intended there!!!!!!!

j x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:39 AM

Tug The Cox, I am very keen to hear how Lizzie got on and as she is passionate about her cause, she could have so easily have done something like chaining or even getting arrested :-)

So lets hear how you got on Lizzie and hopefully you have won for your Mother In Law.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:41 AM

Lizzie - I am so, so, so sorry - I came to take piccies of the lift last night and found out the lift has, unbeknowns to me, been promised elsewhere. Big public apology for letting you down and PM on it's way.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:08 AM

I guess the issue here is how you go about getting the things for your loved ones.

Lizzie lost her rag and chose to go to the Radio and TV.

When I was faced with a problem concerning my elderly parents some 8/9 years ago, I chose not to involve the papers/radio/TV. They were 85 and 86 at the time.

My parents had been married for 65 years. My father was unable to look after my mother anymore and unfortunately she had to go into a nursing home, which broke my father up very badly as you would imagine. Phone calls every night to me crying and very distraught. I was so concerned for his health and was deeply distressing for me as well.

The XXXXXXX City Council refused to find a Residential/Nursing home so that my father could be with her. They wouldn't even take any calls from me, begging them to be caring about my parents human rights.

So I went onto the internet to search for a human rights lawyer. Through that route, I found a highly recommended Human Rights lawyer in Birmingham who was considered to be the tops. As my parents didn't have sufficient funds to pay for her services, the lawyer took my dads case on for free.

One letter from this lawyer, had them phoning me up, to see what they could do to get my parents back together.

I found a nursing home up in Lincoln near me that was Residential/Nursing and had a double room they could have.

One phone call to the council was sufficient to have them moved up to Lincoln.

I did not rant and rave at the people who decide these matters or go to the press and it was all sorted within a month, although the move took a bit longer due to all the paperwork (its a wonder we have any trees left, with the amount of paperwork involved).

I could have had it splattered all over the press, but my concern was for my parents and I did not want to cause them any more stress than was necessary.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:35 AM

I have been known to go to the press but usually as a last resort. The problem with complaining to the press is that you cannot control what they say and how they edit. In the BBC's case they will almost certainly have to provide balance and the "other side" may give a totally different view.

With my own mother, who sadly died in 2003 the clue to getting things done (IMHO) was establishing her right to Attendance Allowance.

All sorts of entitlement follow from that and a (local council) OT soon got her all the aids she needed starting with a wheelchair. It was soon easy to get a disabled badge for my car which enabled us to take her out a lot more. She had a bath lift and so on.

And she could afford all sorts of things that she was always worried about before and which saved me a lot of trouble, in particular the garden. By doing this she was able to live on her own right until she died.

I worked through a welfare rights officer.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:54 AM

No updates from LC? I just wanted to hear the radio piece... :-(

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:10 AM

"by no means am i lizzie bashing here.
it just seems to me to more about lizzie getting what she wants instead of vi getting what she needs."

No, it is me trying my best to stand up for not just Vi, but for all the other elderly people who, bit by bit, are being pushed aside, by a system that is more and more refusing to care for us all as they once did.

And meanwhile, the Corporate NHS bastards sit in their plush offices, entertaining medical reps galore, living off the fat of little 95 year old ladies, who they've cut back on.

Well, let them cut back on themselves first! Let the NHS get rid of way too many managers and let the money go where it's supposed to go, to the PATIENTS!

This is about principle, morals, caring, compassion...and the more we cease to fight, the more we will all be treated in this way!



"for example, just because they would not fit handles have they recommended another agency take over vi's plight?"

She was advised to buy the handles, or seat, herself and then contact Age Concern who'd fit them for her, for free.


"we have seen here that the handles requested might not be up to the task but we have not been told by lizzie if anything else was suggested."

Yes, Kate suggested a seat that goes on the top of the bath, you need handles put on the bath too for that, to enable you to get in and out.
Vi wanted handles on the wall, as she's always had. After spending a very long time explaining to Vi about the benefits of the seat, she then took her back to her room and told her that she was not eligible for *any* help at all, because she didn't fit The New Criteria.

"it is very annoying when something that is needed does not get provided."

Yes, but sometimes, it is way beyond that. It is WRONG!"

"however i am sure there are better ways of getting this information than shouting and swearing at someone."

I did NOT swear at Kate, nor did I shout at *her*...but I did let off steam..apologising first for doing so, because I know she is just 'the messenger' here and not the unfeeling Fatcatprat who makes these decisions whilst subtracting pounds here and there from his 'Abacus of Human Resources Who Do Not Matter Anymore'



"i am feeling sorry for the woman who was subjected to this ranting.
it must have been very intimidating to be in someones home on your own and to be set upon like that, from what we have been told she handled herself with dignity and more patience than i would have had."

Kate ASKED me to go to the Top! She ASKED me to take this further! She bloody well came round, 15 minutes later with all the details, so that I could do EXACTLY that! She said..."We KNEW this would happen eventually. We KNEW it would just be a matter of time"

Just because *I* am the one who blew my top, does not make me a bad person, jade! I come from a very different generation, it is one that knows what Vi's generation has been through, heck, my own FATHER would have been the same age, were he still alive today.

When Dad was ill, and he lived with me too at the end of his life, he had a District Nurse who came round, free of charge, to bathe him and care for him in a 'personal' manner. All patients did, every single patient in this Land of mine! Alison became a friend to him, he looked forward to her visits. It was a social thing as much as a medical one.

Shortly after Dad died, 'they' withdrew the District Nurses from doing this, giving it to the private sector.

Nowadays you so often have staff in to bathe and dress people who don't give a shite. They're paid crap wages by companies who are 'just in it for the money'....and they cut corners, won't do anything unless it's down on their job description etc.etc.etc...and the patients have to pay for it all.

If you give up, if you keep letting this slip and that slip away, then eventually you will end up with nothing!

If I had not been there, Vi would have apologised for being a nuisance and bought the handles herself from her pension.

Sorry, but why the fuck should she?

For the NHS to tell a 95 year old lady that she has to carry on standing up to wash, rather than helping her to have a bath, by assessing her getting in and out of the bath (which was NOT done, btw) then seeing what they could do to help, is appalling.

And meanwhile..the Fatcatprats grin their 'Cheshire' grins....and lap up the cream from the money they've just saved from yet another little old lady bewildered and apologetic, who has, through no choice of her own, given in.


"lizzie, i hope that you get something that will help, there have been suggestions galore here.
maybe look into finding a product yourself and seeing whether the local council or social services can help pay and install it for you?"

Torbay Care Trust IS my local council Jade, they are one of the few Health Trusts/Social Services, linked in the Council in the way they are....They ARE the Social Services..

They should rename themselve 'Torbay We Don't Give A Shit Trust' as it would be far more fitting.

For yours and everyone else's information, the Fatcatprats won't even stop licking their cream long enough to talk to the BBC. ALL they will ever do is issue a statement saying they cannot commnet on individual cases and follow that with the rules for 'The New Criteria' and that is as close as they will come to 'discussing' ANYTHING with the BBC.

Corrupt?

You betcha!!!

What are they so afraid of? WHY won't they talk to the BBC?

AND for your information....


Do you know that GPs are actually paid BONUSES to NOT refer you on to a Specialist?   

Yup, isn't that wonderful!

HOW do I know this?

Well, the man who came round yesterday to interview me told me his own story.

He damaged his knee playing football. He went to his GP and was told it was badly bruised but it would soon get better. It didn't. He went back FIVE times, and luckily for him, on the final visit he saw a Locum, who, without even touching his knee told him that he had probably torn a ligament, because of how he described the pain. He referred him to a Specialist immediately and within days, he was having his knee operated on, by wonderful staff who cared for him marvellously.

A few months later his boss asked him to cover the story of GPs getting paid bonuses to NOT refer patients...

One of the women I work with has a 14 year old daughter who has severe dyspraxia. Her daughter was highly premature, weighing just over one pound at birth. Amazingly, she survived, against all odds...
Over the past few years (YEARS) she has had fainting fits, where she loses consciousness, falls down and her lips go blue.

Has she been referred to a Specialist?

Nope.

Her mother has been told over and again that it's 'just her age' and it will pass.

Well, she did it again last week, at school...and they could barely bring her round, took them longer than normal. They called her mother, rather than an ambulance, and yet again, her mother was told by her GP that it was nothing to worry about.

She now knows the story I learnt yesterday and is so flamingly mad...I've told her she must INSIST that her daughter is now fully investigated, as she should have been years back.

The more you give in, the more you keep quiet, the more you believe in 'musn't grumble' way of life, the more they will shite all over you!

GRUMBLE!
And grumble so bloody loud that they can here you inside the Houses of Parliament, where they'll start to shake in their Cutthroats, Crooks & Conmen Designer Shoes!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:24 AM

'Get the story right!

GPs do NOT personally gain from reducing referral rates to secondary care. Any money saved (NOT achieved by stopping patients who need to see a see a specialist from seeing him/her but by reducing unnecessary follow ups) can be used to improve patient care eg by purchasing physiotherapy services so patients can be seen more rapidly. The purchasing process is rigorously controlled by the PCT.'

A comment to the Daily Mail following their 'scare' story on this

How sick! GPs paid bonus to NOT send you to hospital

How sad! Some people NEVER read past the headlines

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:44 AM

Difficult to know where to start with that one Lizzie; do you ever bother to check facts, as opposed to hearsay and innuendo? You are setting yourself up here as a sort of crusading hero who us going to expose the wrongs of our society. Could I respectfully recommend you read Don Quixote before doing so?
Most of that last tirade was simply foolish nonsense, but responsible care organisations will now have to devote scarce time and resources to answering your allegations. Since the allegations are without foundation, what do you suppose you have achieved?
Perhaps an example would serve to show the silliness. You make great play of the 'overmanaged' NHS (despite being told several times that this issue is not an NHS responsibility, even in Torbay). The argument goes; Most people would agree that large, profitable companies like Tesco, Sainsburys or Marks and Spencers are well run, and therefore it is reasonable to suppose that they have a suitable balance between operational and managerial staff. If we do like-for-like comparisons, these companies spend between 12% and 13.5% of their paybill on management. (Tesco is the lowest, M&S the highest, on 2008 figures). Allegedly 'efficient' American private healthcare spends about 19% on management. The NHS spends about 7.5% at most on management when compared like-for-like. Add to that the fact that NHS managerial salaries are on average 15% lower than private sector managers with equivalent responsibilities. I hold no brief to defend the NHS, but it's important to get the facts straight (unless you write for/read the Daily Mail, of course).
Interestingly, the Tories were proposing yesterday to cut admin jobs in the NHS. Note; admin jobs, not admin functions. The effect of this is that the amount of admin work will not change, but will have to be done by clinical staff (who don't usually have the skills)rather than backroom staff. A specific effect would be that the rant above would have to be investigated and replied to by an Occupational Therapist who might have been better employed re-assessing Vi's needs. We've been through this before in the early 80's when the Tories cracked down on Ward Clerks; this meant that Sister had to do all the admin, at a much higher rate of pay.
Lizzie, please re-read some of the above posts, calm down and start doing things that will actually help Vi to get what she needs.
Tim

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:53 AM

Correct me if I am wrong , but surely the NHS is there for MEDICAL matters and the accessibility of washing facilities is NOT a Medical
concern . Thus the provision of Bath Handles , walk in showers and suchlike woud be Social Srvice , NOT N H S .
My Mother had a similar problem with getting in and out of her bath , so the Social Services assessed her and the bath was removed and a walk in shower installed at NO cost to my mother .
Admittedly , this was in a Council Flat , not a privately owned place .

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:11 AM

In defence of Lizzie, I used to live in Torbay and these people she refers to are just a bunch of ********.

I had many issues with my Autistic daughter and getting the right support etc.

In the end we moved up to Lincolnshire becuase we couldn't seem to knock these deadhead bozos into accepting their responsibilties. Their heads are firmly stuck up their A**** and they do not have the funds.

We have had excellent support since moving up to Lincolnshire. OK we have still had to fight our case, but you expect to do that theses days.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:30 AM

lizzie, i see where you are coming from, i really do. i guess i don't fully understand because things don't work that way round here.

my other half is on DLA, so whenever we ask for help it is USUALLY there. however when we were going through a particualarly bad time we were referred to a damn care worker when what was needed was a shrink.
this to get an appointment we had to wait about 4 months. after that we had to wait another 2/3 months to see a shrink. this was down to red tape.

so believe me i understand your frustration.

could you see if something lie watchdog will take this up?
or contact a solicitor like someone here suggested?

when i said it must be intimidating to be ranted at, i am only using the words you yourself used in your first post.

what i did not know was that you are in private housing, it should not matter of course but it seems to.

i think the main problem is local councils have different criteria for things, what you will get in one place with no fuss, you have to fight tooth and nail for somewhere else.

is vi registered with age concern or some sort of carer service?

what i was trying to put accross is although some service should be helping you with looking after vi, getting these handles or a seat can be sorted without a battle. once she is sorted you are then free to get get compensated by the authorites.

have you asked your local doctors if they can help with renting or the loan of a chair to help you out.
our doctors has all sorts of things to loan, but i don't know exactly what as we had no need for anything from them(fingers crossed we won't for ages yet).

there are alot of charities out there just waiting for you to ask for help, maybe if your doctors can't help, they may be able to reccomend somewhere.

i am only interested in trying to hep vi for the time being, once she is sorted i will agree that things are getting out of hand when it comes to assisting those in need.

i really hope the going to the press, embarasses the social services or the council to do something for her, my worry is they will shut down even further.

i wish you every luck in getting this sorted for her.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:03 AM

heir heads are firmly stuck up their A**** and they do not have the funds.

I wonder how much of this comes from tradition to a certain extent. The area where Lizzie lives has always been a "Tory" area with the individual at the centre of things and responsible for themselves. The main priority has (it seems to me) to be been saving ratepayers money.

I would think they have a number of retired people down there, more than for example in Sheffield.

The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that we baby boomers are now getting a lot older. There will be greater demand for services. Full satisfaction will be achieved by spreading the jam more thinly (buy and fit your own handles) or cuts (no handles), cuts elsewhere (e.g. no free TV licence) or or higher taxes.

You might have to make that choice next year.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:15 AM

'Get the story right!

GPs do NOT personally gain from reducing referral rates to secondary care. Any money saved (NOT achieved by stopping patients who need to see a see a specialist from seeing him/her but by reducing unnecessary follow ups) can be used to improve patient care eg by purchasing physiotherapy services so patients can be seen more rapidly. The purchasing process is rigorously controlled by the PCT.'


Get the story right? I did

And just in case some people can't open the link, here is what's inside it:

Doctors paid thousands not to send patients to hospital for treatment
Family doctors are being paid thousands of pounds not to send their patients to hospital for specialist treatment, sparking fears over standards of care.

>>>>>By Patrick Sawer and Laura Donnelly
Published: 3:40PM BST 18 Oct 2008

Dozens of incentive schemes have been uncovered which allow GPs to profit by slashing the number of patients they refer for hospital care.

Under one scheme, GPs stand to gain £59 for every patient not referred to hospital, if they cut an average referral rate by between two and eight per cent.


Related Articles
Balloon heart plan to 'save hundreds of lives' Torbay care trust in Devon will pay up to £15,000 to the average-sized GP practice if it hits a swathe of targets, including reducing hospital referrals.

NHS managers say referral rates, which rose 16 per cent nationwide during the first quarter of this year, have to be cut to save money. They claim many patients can receive equally good care from community NHS staff, such as physiotherapists and nurses.

But critics fear that patients could suffer if GPs' decisions are swayed by the prospect of a cash bonus.

A leading surgeon said that patients' cancers had already gone undiagnosed after they were denied specialist care under two such "referral management" schemes.

Orthopaedic surgeon Stephen Cannon, former president of the British Orthopaedic Association and a consultant surgeon at the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital, described the cases as an "absolutely terrible" warning that decisions by non-specialist doctors could have devastating consequences.

He said: "I recently encountered two cases in which patients referred to physiotherapists later turned out to have a malignant tumour. If they had been sent to a consultant the outcome may have been very different.

"In one case a young man was referred to a physiotherapist because of sudden knee pain. Had he come to a specialist the symptoms should have been recognised and he should have been urgently referred to an oncologist. In this case, after the delays, the outcome was amputation. It was devastating for the patient and his family."

Dozens of practices across London, Essex, Oxfordshire, Devon and Wiltshire have signed up for schemes which pay GPs up to £4.50 for every patient on their list if they hit targets, including a target to reduce the proportion of patients they send to hospital.

The average family doctor, with a patient list of about 2,000 patients, stands to make between £6,000 and £9,000 if they achieve all the targets, on top of a performance-related pay system which already gives the average GP an income of £110,000.

Under the schemes, GPs will also be paid to spend time discussing patient cases with colleagues in the hope this will result in fewer referrals to hospital and more patients being treated by physiotherapists, community nurses and non-specialist staff.

Oxfordshire primary care trust will pay its GPs an extra £1 for every patient on their list for time spent discussing case details with colleagues, and a further £1 per patient on their list if they cut the number of referrals by an average of four per week. For the average practice, with an average referral rate, that could mean as much as an extra £12,000 income.

Since the scheme was introduced at the start of this month, 80 of the county's 82 GP practices have signed up. Dan Lasserson, a GP at Oxford's Jericho Health Centre, attacked the scheme, saying "There should not be a personal financial incentive put in front of anybody when deciding about delivering patient care. It will take the focus off the patient and erode patient trust."

Dr Lasserson is refusing to take part in the plans.

"It's OK to say that GPs should discuss cases to see if there's an alternative to hospital for a particular patient. But that should be happening anyway," he added. "What I strongly object to is setting targets which are linked to payments.

"Patients need to know that decisions about their future are not been weighted by financial discussions."

Sue Woollcott, chair of the Patient Support Group at Oxford's Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre, said: "There's a possibility that GPs will end up basing decisions not on clinical need but on their budget."

Specialist doctors fear serious health conditions could go undetected and allowed to worsen.

Dr Chris Deighton, of the British Society for Rheumatology, said delays in receiving specialist care could allow patients to deteriorate and even cause permanent harm.

"If someone develops rheumatoid arthritis, time is of the essence," he said. "There is a window of opportunity when intervention from a specialist and a whole team can make a real difference."

Dr Deighton cited research showing that delays diagnosing arthritis increase the risk of the condition becoming so severe that patients are unable to work, adding: "In particular I worry about the mild onset cases, which often have a worse prognosis in the long run but are less likely to be detected by non-specialists. GPs are not in a position to judge."

Dr Alistair Moulds, a GP from Laindon, Essex, has refused to sign up to a South Essex scheme which pays the average GP practice £9,000 to hit targets to reduce pressure on hospitals.

He said: "Paying GPs to try to keep patients, especially emergency admissions, out of hospital could be dangerous to patient care and safety. I don't think most GPs would not send someone to hospital in order to make fifty pounds, but I don't think that financial incentive should be there at the point a doctor is making a critical decision."

Twenty-four practices have already signed up to the Essex scheme, which began in August, while all 62 practices in Wiltshire have agreed targets which could boost average GP income by £6,400.

In Hampshire, the average GP practice will get £4,000 if they can stem rising numbers of referrals. The PCT will pay its 148 practices a maximum of £4,000 each if their referrals increase by less than five per cent. The PCT is also paying £200 a week for staff cover so GPs can spend more time discussing whether a patient should be referred to hospital or treated in the community.

Health chiefs have defended the payments, saying they are a way of encouraging GPs to spend a bit longer weighing up the pros and cons of referring patients and exploring whether there are any alternatives to hospitalising people who would frequently prefer to remain at home.

Helen Clanchy, director of primary care for Hampshire PCT, said: "The scheme is about getting GPs to understand they have got a number of alternatives to referral. Primary care has many experienced doctors, trained to consultant level, who are in a position to spot symptoms that need referral or immediate hospitalisation."

Alan Webb, director of commissioning for Oxfordshire PCT, said: "We hope to see fewer referrals, but we are not paying GPs not to refer patients. Any patient in Oxfordshire who needs a hospital referral will get one."

Dr Phil Green, for Torbay care trust, said its scheme was designed to "promote effective use of care service" and help GP practices "review and reflect on" the patients they refer to hospital.

Richard Hoey, from Pulse, a magazine for GPs, said the schemes were provoking controversy among family doctors.

He said: "The fear is that these schemes are attempting to artificially reduce referrals, rather than address the problems leading to them."

Shadow Health Secretary Andrew Lansley added: "It is inefficient and unethical to pay GPs to refer fewer patients to hospital.

"If patients find out that their local health bureaucracy is paying their doctor not to refer them to hospital they will be rightly outraged."

HOW THE INCENTIVE SCHEMES WORK

OXFORDSHIRE

GPs will receive an extra £1 for every patient on their list to pay for time to discuss patient cases with colleagues to see if there is an alternative to hospital referral. They will be paid a further £1 per patient on their list if they cut the number of referrals by an average of four per week. For a practice with 6,000 patients and an average referral rate that could mean an extra income of £12,000.

HAMPSHIRE

The county's 148 GP practices will be paid extra to keep the increase in their referral rate to below a certain level. Those practices who keep the increase to five per cent and below will receive the full amount, £4,000 for the average practice. GP practices will also be paid an average £200 a week over a 12-week period for extra staff cover to allow doctors to spend more time discussing patient cases with colleagues in a bid to find alternatives to hospital treatment.

TORBAY, DEVON


All Torbay's 22 practices have signed up to a scheme under which a GP with an average referral rate can gain £59 for every patient not referred to hospital, up to a maximum eight per cent reduction in referrals. Torbay care trust will pay up to £15,000 to the average GP practice if it hits a series of targets including those to reduce hospital referrals, spend less than its budget, and have fewer of its patients admitted to hospital in an emergency. <<<<<

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

"The woman looked at the bath...and suggested a wooden seat to go across the bath. The way, Vi could sit on it safely, pull the shower curtain across and use the shower handle to wash herself.

But she wasn't happy with that, Vi, that is...saying she'd prefer the handles....but the lady wouldn't let her have them, as she considered them far more of a risk than the seat.."

....and please consider your relative's safety if you decide to ignore the Occupational Therapist's judgement (apparently not based on cost) and provide an aide yourself

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:42 AM

Lizzie
Have I missed on of your posts?

I can't see anything about what happened on Radio Devon? I assume you went on? I would have thought if it was a great interview you would have been letting us know about it.

I guess it didn't go well.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:42 AM

In the same way that the far right wing press have attacked health reform in America so the UK right wing press have attempted to undermine the NHS - such as the article quoted by Lizzie above which is from the Daily Telegraph decribed by one Democratic blog as

"The UK Daily Telegraph....making Fox News look fair and balanced"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Emma, perhaps you'd like to interview the man who interviewed me, as he not only had experience of this very problem, as I have quoted above, but also did a report into it himself, for BBC Radio Devon.

I realise that way you may not be able to pick holes in all that I've said, but.....que sera sera...


"I can't see anything about what happened on Radio Devon? I assume you went on? I would have thought if it was a great interview you would have been letting us know about it.

I guess it didn't go well."

Oh, now there's a challenge.. :0)

It went very well, thank you. But I was being well behaved and not raging about it on here. Apparently, it was on the lunchtime TV news and I think it will be on tonight as well, from 6.30pm onwards.

I've no idea when it will be on Radio Devon, although I'd assume it will be today as well, on their news slots I guess.

He didn't interview me 'live'....but brought everything round with him, then took it all away again after to edit it and write up the story for presentation, etc...

I haven't watched it, Villan...and to be honest, I'd rather not either, as I'm sure he'll have chopped it around somewhat, and to be fair, he did tell me he had to do that, as he only has a few minutes to get the main points across...and Nanny, bless her heart, told him the entire story of how she met Mick, childhood sweethearts from 16, right up until his dying day and how that happened...so yes, he sure will need to do some editing...

I told him about Show of Hands though....and a few other things too... ;0)

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:28 PM

I told him about Show of Hands though

Last time I mentioned them you weren't to keen as I remember. Are they back in favour?

And do keep us up-to-date on the handles/lift/bench seat situation please. It would be nice to know the outcome.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

what have show of hands got to do with anything, or folk music in genral come to that???????????

j x x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:41 PM

Here you go:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cornwall/8295585.stm

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:44 PM

Hurrah, Lizzie's been on the telly! Now lots of overworked NHS and Social Services staff will be spending long hours of their valuable time justifying their actions to a bunch of journalists who couldn't really care less as long as they get a sensationalist story that fits their own agenda. Even if it helps VI, how many others will miss out because of all the wasted time and resources? Bear in mind, Lizzie, that if you had taken the good advice offered by the OT and more than one well-informed person on here, you would have probably had a solution by now. Anyway, well done for becoming a local celebrity, with all that it entails. Best stock up on fake tan and sunglasses.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:51 PM

well done, Lizzie.
I understand her sentiments about showers,she is 95,and surely entitled to have a preference.
I also think it is admirable that Lizzie is caring for or/and about her ex mother in law.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:27 PM

"Now lots of overworked NHS and Social Services staff will be spending long hours of their valuable time justifying their actions to a bunch of journalists who couldn't really care less as long as they get a sensationalist story that fits their own agenda."

Could I just get this straight, please.

The Occupational Therapist *herself* asked me to go right to the top with this one.

They are at the blunt end of this, having to tell the patients that they can't have this and they can't have that, whilst those at the top hide behind closed doors and leave them to get on with it all, whilst not giving a hoot about their patients.

I've worked with doctors and nurses and I know how damn hard they work, how terrible, at times, their lives are with what they have to see, do and cope with. I have nothing but admiration for them.

The OT came back 15 minutes later with all the details for me, because she wanted me to complain.


So...put that in your pipe and smoke it, sonny. Yeesh!


Show of Hands, jeddy, wrote 'Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen' a wonderful song about what is happening and who this land is being run by. It was written under a Tory govt. but it applies just as much, if not more, today.

Show of Hands are part of the reason I found my voice.

Sadly, they too wanted it stopped.

Luckily, as you will see by the Insubordination Smiley on my Myspace page, I don't listen to even them....

Yes, I will let you know of the outcome about all this.

One outcome is that Vi too has found her voice...and when BT sent her a rude letter telling her she was overdue in her payment of her bill and she had better pay immediately (despite only having had the line put in a week before) she, instead of handing me the bill, rang them herself and wiped the floor with them for sending out such a worriesome letter.

She spent ages reading it, through her magnifying glass, as she's registered blind..then wrote out her customer reference number in HUGE letters so that she could quote it to them.

At 95 she has turned into a fighter..

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:29 PM

If Lizzie really cared about Vi she would do something PRACTICAL to make sure that she could use the bath.

Surely the old lady's safety and comfort, for the small amount that it would cost, is worth more than screaming about a principle right now. Vi even offered to pay for the handle herself but Lizzie says no. How much does that show here care for the individual against her wanting to take up another cause.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM

Look, the WHOLE point of getting the Occupational therapist IN was so that she could asses Vi, see what she needed, see her getting in and out of the bath etc....

I phoned for that appointment the day after we moved here...and believe me, jacqui, I was stressed beyond belief at the time...

I was told I'd have to wait SEVEN weeks for an appointment and at no time was I told that she'd probably never get any help anyway.

If I'd been told that, I'd have kicked up a stink anyway, done the same thing, but I waited because I felt that she was the right person to see.

I bathed Vi myself, but it was a disaster, because she was very distressed over the lack of privacy. She's fiercely independant and has always managed with handles on the wall before.

The seat is far more cumbersome for her and you have to have handles on the bath itself, in front of the seat, to push yourself in and out. She can't cope with the thought of that and they'd not supply it anyway.

I will ensure that now, something is done immediately. Had I known about this crazy state of affairs 7 weeks back, I'd have made other arrangements back then, as well as shouting out about it.

jacqui, I'm afraid I take offence at your remarks, because I've looked after 3 out of 4 of my 'parents and parents-in-law' since my daughter was one year old. I've barely ever had a time when I've just had my own little family to care for, because others needed help to...and at times it's been exhausting and upsetting, but I damn well gritted my teeth and did it.

so please do not dare suggest that I'm not caring for Vi as I should be, because that really gets up my nose.

Thank you..

And as you are English, you should know and understand what is at principle here. You may think it's fine for Torbay Care Trust to behave as they've done, I didn't...and to be honest, neither does their OT lady, or the man in the Complaints Department that I rang.

I'm no snivelling coward and if something's wrong, I'll damn well say it, no matter what.


However, please do not let any of my words above stop you from the usual lizzie bashing...

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

I think Jacqui's point is that when you were told it would take seven weeks before you could see the OT and arrange for the railing, why not simply install it yourself? It costs less than $20. You have a builder on site and a fifteen year old eager to learn how to build things. Vi herself wanted to pay for it.

Then continue the fight to have the appropriate agency pay for it.

You would be exactly where you are now and Vi would have had a decent bath every day for the past two months.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Quite frankly I'd have a lot more sympathy if you just stopped whinging on and on ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM

I watched your interview Lizzie; credit where it's due, you handled yourself and the interview well. Why not try the calm and rational approach elsewhere? Here, for example? A spot of listening would help, although you seem to think that not listening is a virtue. Sinsull is right; you could have had this fixed by now if you hadn't been so preoccupied with your own agenda of 'heroic, insubordinate Lizzie fights the State'. From personal experience, I reckon it's a 15 minute job to fix a handrail fit for the purpose. How long have you wasted on this pointless campaign, when you could have fixed the problem?
Incidentally, if I'd been in the OT's position, I'd have told you to take your complaints to the top as well; they are trained to say this to stop their patients being upset by ranting relatives. That doesn't change the fact that time and resources have and will be wasted responding to your actions. By the way, if it's ok for you call me, a man in his 50s, 'Sonny', is it ok for me to call you 'Silly Old Biddy'? Just wondered.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

I am an old biddy, so you can call me what you want, sonny.

Nope, sorry....I left it for the OT to come here because I wanted it done properly. Vi puts a great deal of pull on handles when she gets in and out, and no way would I do a bodged job for her.

It's taken over 6 weeks to get her medical notes transferred over here, and that was with them speeding things up! ????

You guys just don't get it..this is not about me, it's about a Care Trust that doesn't care...and the fact most of you have overlooked that point, other than Villan, who used to live here, so he understands what this is about...all you can do is see 'the bad side of lizzie' yet again and off you all go.....

You tell me over and over to read what's written, act on it and stop ranting...

Well, maybe, just maybe, some of you should do exactly the same.



There are times when I feel just like Winston................

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:57 PM

Thanks for the permission Lizzie, I'll do my best to oblige. I've read everything you've posted in this thread and many others over the years. Carefully, and generally with an open mind. I've supported your ideas from time to time, and disagreed at other times. The problem here is that I actually know for certain what I'm talking about here, I have direct experience both in my professional and private life. Someone as self-obsessed as you probably won't care about this, but aside from my mother's hip replacements, one of the factors that contributed to the death of my blind, disabled kid brother earlier this year was the failure of a private landlord to fix a handrail by some dangerous steps down to my brother's flat. He fell, was unconcious for three days, and in all likelihood this precipitated the Addisonian Crisis that killed him. I tried to fix the handrail myself, but the landlord threatened to have me arrested for vandalising his property. He too was seen as 'not a priority case', as his family regularly made the 260 mile round trip to clean his flat and check he was ok. Don't you dare presume to lecture me about caring and problems with equipment.
In my professional life I have been involved in investigating some of these cases, and in redesigning services to provide better care. I know how this system works, and all that people like you do is slow it down and make it even less efficient. There is a complaints procedure you could have used,and there are lots of avenues you could have explored to get this small job done even if you are not competent to do it yourself. Whatever; Vi would have been able to have a bath ages ago, and wouldn't have had to suffer the indignities you describe.
Your self obsession and total lack of self awareness, coupled with the inability to listen to sound advice has caused more distress for Vi than was necessary. Silly Old Biddy doesn't begin to cover it. I'm out of here.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:08 PM

Winston Churchill? As in dead?

"this is not about me"

At this point it's debatable. And I would think that the best way to make sure that people don't "Lizzie bash" here is to not leave yourself open for bashing.....

Unless you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Actually it is about 95 year old woman forced to perch unsafely in a basin for eight weeks or do without bathing. That is obscene.

Of course, a professional licensed builder could not possibly safely install a household device that most people install themselves without a problem. I can see that...all too clearly.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

Check here for info

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:23 PM

No, another Winston......

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:32 PM

Actually, Tim...you still don't get it.

I did it so that it would blow this problem open, get others talking about it....

But off you go again..."You're so self-obsessed, Lizzie!" yadda yadda yadda...

yup, and that's why I've looked after 3 out of 4 of my elderly parents and in-laws...total self obsession, right?

No, Vi wanted to have the people come to see if they could help her. She told me she'd be fine for a few weeks washing down, as they'd be here soon enough...Ha!

She never wants to be any trouble to anyone, just gets on with things every single day...

She managed fine with handrails before, absolutely fine but nope, that wasn't even taken into consideration, because the seat and handles were recommended, and then the use of the shower, being hand-held.

The builder didn't fit any handles because er....Torbay Care Trust were er...on their way round to do that for her, or so I so stupidly thought...

There was far more in that interview, FAR more, with far more passion and anger too, but he already said, before we started, that the BBC have to be very careful what they allow on, in case of legal action being taken....and they've had several run in's with the Care Trust before....so what you got was the beige bland and boring part...but that doesn't matter, because it will have touched other people, made them feel a little angry too..and perhaps make them fight as well, for their relatives.

This situation is wrong, as are many other things in this country, and if we do not stand together and use our voices, in an ever increasing sound proofed world, then we will never be heard.

You get the Health Service you deserve I guess...and it seems to me that most here want the NHS to do less and less and less, whilst those at the top take more and more and more...

This is NOT about me....but as ever, that's what you guys will spin around to because your heads are always facing the wrong path.

I'm sorry about your brother, mandotim, extremely sorry.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:48 PM

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?...

Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now?... The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 5


"I heard an Ol' Biddy say today that Social Services used to provide free handrails for the elderly, so that they could have a bath? And it got worse, because she went on to say that once, District Nurses used to visit those who needed help, at home, care for them and bath them in their own homes! Of course, we realised she was raving mad....because people have always had to pay for everything to do with their medical care in Torquayiana"

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM

I've always been of the opinion that, while State help can be available, if it is possible for a person or their family to take care of relatively simple matters then that is the way to go. Over reliance on State help just adds to the tax burden on the whole community and means that. possibly, someone who cannot do for themselves may get overlooked.

All we seem to be hearing from you, Lizzie, is a diatribe about the 'fat cats' who, you say are taking the cream here. Do you really think, that if these people exist, they will be the ones to take the heat when this kind of storm in a teacup blows up? They won't. It will be someone a lot further down the totem pole who will be made a scapegoat for this kind of nonsense.

Villan had the right idea - find a solicitor to deal with the matter IF it is worth the aggravation. That is what most sensible people would do if it wasn't a problem that they could solve themselves.
insofar as this problem goes - the solution would have been so simple. My daughter's parents in law are in their 70s and are going on frail. Their FAMILY help them out and, if they were in this situation, the grab handles would have been put up when the problem first arose. I would not dream of leaving someone I cared about in such a situation for so long a time, in spite of their protestations.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:26 PM

Perhaps there is some entitlement to have this work performed by some governmental office, at some level. If so, in the US at least, there would be a work order submitted and in due course (2-3 weeks at the quickest) a team of two carpenters would sent out, at $25 per hour each, to do the work...which would take at least two hours. The grab bar(s) would have been purchased on a low-bid basis, from a manufacturer in Bangladesh, for twice what they'd cost on the open market. There might also be a supervisor ($35/hour) along later to inspect. The total cost, passed on to the taxpayer, would be on the order of $250. The alternative, of course, would be to buy the bars at the hardware store for $15, install them, and attempt (futilely) to get reimbursed. I guess it all depends on what's important to you.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8295585.stm

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:42 PM

Lizzie is attempting to look after her ex mother in law,that in itself is worthy,she is trying to get a problem sorted,which involves bureaucracy,which can be very frustrating.
she feels the need to come on here and let off steam[that is understandable too].
to attribute to her ulterior motives,as some of the posters have done,is unpleasant and debasing.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

The problem need not involve bureaucracy. It is a simple problem that could be resolved very easily with a trip to a hardware store.

With statements such as

I told her about the corruption, the apathy, the Orwellian times we now live in, the bastards who see 95 year olds as just more fodder to cut back on, whilst they wine and dine themselves in their posh bloody offices!!!

They count their pennies...they make us work for 6 hours, on basic wages with no tea breaks, no lunch breaks, even telling us that if we WANT a tea break, they'll take 15 minutes OFF our salary!!!???????????


And meanwhile..the Fatcatprats grin their 'Cheshire' grins....and lap up the cream from the money they've just saved from yet another little old lady bewildered and apologetic, who has, through no choice of her own, given in.

it's hard to see that this is not just another of Lizzie's diatribes against all the ills that she sees in the state of the world. We've seen it oh so often recently and it gets a bit difficult to take it seriously after a while.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

Not long ago I almost broke my shin bone from slipping in the tub. I bought a handle and two screws, installed it myself, genius not required, and have used it ever since.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM

Bloody hell Kendall, that must have been very painful sticking those screws in your shin :-)

I think Lizzie's MIL looks a very nice lady and its a crying shame it couldn't have been dealt with, without all the kerfuffle.
It is very important that she manages to look after herself as long as possible. Going into nursing care is aweful, as i saw with my mother.

Keep going VI.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM

Hey, it can happen!

On February 15th, 2000, I managed to deck myself in the bathroom. Broken left femur, wound up in the hospital for about three weeks. I came out with a titanium rod in my left femur held in place by four screws.

Dunno if sticking the screws in was painful. Thanks to a good anesthesiologist, I think I was orbiting Saturn while it was being done.

I now have grab bars all over the bathroom. I had a contractor install them (professional job, bolted to studs, good and solid). It never occurred to me to try to get some government agency to pay to have it done.

Don Firth

P. S. I haven't tried to go through an airport metal detector since that particular installation. I'd probably drive them bananas!

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

Kendall's fall was a scary event for the entire Kendall Groupie Community. He cut his nose. We watched breathlessly as it healed without a scar fortunately. Jacqui wouldn't let us enshrine the scab.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:40 PM

Well, the story of Lizzie's MIL has made it onto the BBC news website

Kitty

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

Yes. It appeared yesterday. There are links above.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

Bit of thread drift. Gavin Atkin, a great singer Duet player and fiddle player down in the Kent area fell over and broke his ankle. He is now known as Gavin "Ten Bolts" Atkin.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Careful with your neck.

CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: GUEST,Jenny Brampton
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 07:32 PM

Learn to smile before you kill

JB

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

what news lizzie??????

it wouldn't suprise me if you get some nice builder offering to fit handles for free. people can be wonderfully suprising, even nowadays.

TCA

jade x x x

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:02 AM

The lccal paper has just left, after ringing up to ask if they could follow up on the story. They're after Torbay Care Trust for many things, and find the same as the BBC, a wall of silence hidden behind...'We're following Government Guidelines'..

At the moment, they're trying to close down a Respite Care centre in Torquay, the John Parkes centre, where severely disabled children are taken care of for a while to give their parents a break.

Torbay Care Trust says it costs too much to run and the children can be just as well cared for by 'trained families' in their own homes..

Age Concern will fit things for free. The elderly though, have to buy them.

This isn't just about Vi, jeddy, it's about all the other Vi's and Vic's out there who have no one to fight for them, whilst they struggle to get by on a meagre pension, often with no family or friends around them to help out.

It never used to be this way, and THAT is the danger here, that so many people have become so compliant to 'The New Criteria' without even bothering to ask what cutbacks those at the top are making...

Yes, we are in a recession, but the cutbacks start at the TOP, with those who sit in plush offices, driving plush cars, often company ones, who have large homes and large bank balances...It should NOT start with the people at the bottom, let alone when some of those people are 95 years old. As I said, Vi is lucky, she's looked after well and has others to fight for her, many don't have that at all, and this is about THEM.

The more you make a population feel that 'this should be bought by you, and that should be bought by you'...and the more the population gives in to that, BELIEVES it, then the more you are staring a private medical world in the face...

I am NOT knocking ANY National Health Carers here, the medical side, that is, but I sure am knocking the managerial side who make these decisions and then stay locked away from the very people who are affected by their decisions, whilst continuing to live their comfortable lives.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

The John Parkes unit is a wonderful unit.

Both our daughters used to go there for diagnosis and help with ADHD and Autism. The staff were wonderful and two people in particular got top ratings from me. His name was David Schurer - I think he was German. Brilliant man and a lady called Rosie Wagstaff an amazing lady.

As I used to go with my daughters for every trip there, I did get to know the staff from the Respite unit. It is just the most amazing unit going.

I hope they do not close it.

Lizzie is ther a petition for the John Parkes Unit please.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:09 AM

Lizzie
Just so things don't get taken out of context about the John Parkes Unit, I will be posting the very latest press release which is being sent to me from the person in Torbay Hospital who is responsible for the units well being. I have just been chatting too her.
As soon as I get it, I will post it on here.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:24 AM

OK here is an earlier press release concerning John Parkes Unit

Torbay Care Trust and NHS Devon
Joint press statement
11 September 2009
A spokesman said:
"Firstly we like to say thank you to all of the parents and carers from Torbay and Devon who attended today's meeting.
"This was a really useful and valuable opportunity for us to discuss the concerns and aspirations regarding respite and short breaks services for children. It also enabled us to set out a clear way forward for the development of services, through working in close partnership with the families involved.
"Most importantly, today's meeting gave us the opportunity to tell parents and carers that the John Parkes Unit will remain open.
"All of those involved in providing and commissioning services at the Unit understand the value of the care which it provides, currently for around 19 families.
"However, we know that there are more than 2,000 families in Torbay and Devon who require respite and short breaks care and we are committed to developing flexible services which are able to meet the needs of as many families as possible.
"Some key actions have arisen as a result of today's meeting which will enable us to start making some positive progress.
"Firstly we will begin a process of reviewing the needs of every child currently receiving care in the Unit in order to ensure we are providing the right care in the right way.
"We have also pledged to set up a working party with parents and carers, healthcare and social workers to enable the John Parkes Unit to evolve into a service which is able to benefit the maximum number of families."

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

Thank you, Villan...

And *that* is why it is so important NEVER to give in, back down, or stop shouting, because if those parents hadn't stood up against Torbay Care Trust, if the press hadn't joined with them, bringing in many others to protest, then I've no doubt they'd have simply gone ahead and closed it.

Great news.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

And here is the very latest press release, issue today, concerning the John Parkes Unit. I have copied and pasted it from the Herald Express as sometimes lnks get outdated.

Disabled unit 'could be centre of excellence'
Thursday, September 17, 2009, 09:30
BAY health bosses have pledged commitment to the John Parkes Unit despite concerns about its future funding.

The Torbay Care Trust board heard the eight-bed respite centre at Torbay Hospital's annexe could become a 'centre of excellence', for Torbay's most disabled children.

But it will need to adapt to meet changing needs and provide better value for money.

The unit is currently used by 10 children in Torbay and nine from the Devon Primary Care Trust area.

But it could face a 50 per cent funding cut if the Devon trust decides not to continue using the unit in shake-up plans of its respite services.

Sharon Matson, director of commissioning, told yesterday's meeting: "We have no intention to close the unit and we want to work with parents and staff to look at how we can redesign it to make it into a centre of excellence for children in Torbay.

"Devon needs to go back and assess its children's needs and how it intends to commission for those needs.

"If Devon decided, and there has been no formal change in that status, that they do not want to buy services from John Parkes that leaves us with a financial loss of about 50 per cent."

But Strete parent Charlotte Stephens, 23, told the board she had already been told the unit had not bid for the Devon's renewed contract.

And her own respite care for three-year-old Bella will not be renewed 'because it is not on Devon's menu of respite care,' she told the meeting.

Chief executive Anthony Farnsworth agreed there were 'inconsistencies' in what has been said to parents.

But he reiterated his commitment for the parents of Torbay.

And even if Devon did pull out, the trust would tailor the unit to meet financial constraints.

Torbay parent Julia Melluish spoke on behalf of Bay parents concerned there were still plans to close the unit.

"Parents have been told by key workers they need to get on a waiting list for other respite services for when the unit closes," she said.

"I trust what you are saying here but there are different messages coming from other quarters.

"Why would social and key workers make it up?"

Mrs Matson said she did not know where those messages had originated.

"We are committed to make it financially viable and successful," she said.

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm...........

Subject: RE: 95 years old, can't have a bath on NHS!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:31 AM

"It never used to be like that.." Particularly pre-NHS it didn't people just got on with it and were helped by relatives rather than waiting around for government agencies to do it.

Overall, the NHs is great but we've gotten to rely too much on it.