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Subject: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:33 AM This is a mostly music thread!! "There Were Roses" by Tommy Sands has shown up in a number of places recently. I notice that the version in the database has different names than the version I have recorded by Sean Keane on his All Hearts, No Roses (Shanachie) album. Keane refers to two friends, MacDonald (Catholic) and Scott(Protestant), from two (for me) indecipherable places. I never really tried to figure out the place names -- it would actually be nice if someone can give me those too. Anyway, the database has two other people mentioned. Which is the original, and does one version or the other commemorate real people? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:45 AM Peter, here is a version with the names you hear in it. The placenames sound fine in it, but I can't really know. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 10:38 AM Thanks, Wolfgang, but being a finicky sort, I should point out that this version of the lyrics has quite a few differences too (Newry is not mentioned in the version I have). This may be folk music at work. Maybe people are just sticking in their own places and people's names. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jul 99 - 10:47 AM Peter, your question made me look up a Tommy Sands site. Here's a little information from that site on 'There were roses': During the next few years, at home and away, everything was to change for the Sands family. Tommy recalls one incident from 1974 in his classic song "There Were Roses." A Protestant friend of his was killed in an act of senseless violence. When the local Protestants looked for a Catholic to kill in retaliation, they ironically chose a man who had been good friends with the original victim--and with Tommy Sands. "It took me almost ten years to write the song, because I saw more than just the events. It summed up war, how people can be put into little boxes and told they're different. It still happens. You know, George Bush says, 'We have nothing against the Iraqui people, it's Saddam.' Some weeks later, a hundred thousand Iraqui people are dead, and Saddam's still there. I wonder what the victory is." So it seems to be a song on a real incident which does not mean, however, that the names are real. In case you want to read more, here's where I found it: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~swinick/Sands.html (a reprint from SING OUT) . Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Big Mick Date: 23 Jul 99 - 10:53 AM A little thread creep here, folks, but I hope you will forgive. I just want to take a moment to thank Wolfgang for all he does. This friend is always there with help and he has done other things that I am aware of that make me know how special he is. I put him in the same class as THE FAIR ALISON(as far as helping folks goes LOL) and Joe Offer.I am proud to call him one of my cyber friends. Now back to the subject. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:33 AM I did a bit more research (I have something else to do I don't like starting):
there's a searchable list of violent deaths in N-Ireland at the CAIN site (here). This site doesn't have the names Allan Bell and Sean O'Malley from the DT versions, but it has:
Isaac Scott (killed 10. July 1973) The dates fit well enough, so obviously the names are the correct ones. I always liked that song thinking it was an invented story with invented names (though based on similar incidents), but I hardly can describe you my feelings when I saw these two names coming up on my screen, I started crying for them. ____________________________________________________ (some minutes later, as in a new post): Mick, thanks for the praise, but before I cannot post tunes I am not in the same class as Alison is. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Big Mick Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:48 AM Well let me tell you what you can do, my friend. You can make me cry. I just read your post and it was powerful and touched me deeply. I shall never sing that song again without the names of Isaac Scott and Sean McDonald. I am playing on July 31 at the Fenian Pub, and I shall sing these friends names then to remind this crowd of two real people, and of the great tragedy that has been happening. It seems to me to be perfect given the name of this place. You have moved this from a favorite song to a "must be sung" song for me. Thank you. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 11:56 AM I wonder (I am sorry I keep pushing this, it is probably, no certainly morbid curiosity, and I should drop it, but I am interested in how people write songs out of personal/political struggle, and how far they distance things into art....) if these were the two people in the original song, that Sands gave different names to to protect them, or were they new people, who fit the model again? maybe the former, as I guess 1973 is long enough ago. Thanks, Wolfgang, for all. The tears of the people flow together. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:07 PM I wish I could listen, Mick, and now definitely off to work. W. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: annamill Date: 23 Jul 99 - 12:54 PM The song is beautifully touching...and frightening. I would like to hear it sung. Can anyone please recommend a CD for me to buy? Someone can just come to your home, pull you out and kill you. No wonder your all so hurt and angry. Love, annap |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:20 PM Wolfgang, obviously they are the real people (73-74) -- wonder if Tommy Sands himself now sings it with the real names? Can't get the place names right though. Annap, as mentioned, Sean Keane (All Heart No Roses)( Shanachie 79085) does it beautifully, though it is a cassette I have had for a long time. I guess it will be on CD. He does a nice version of "Home Away from Home" -- would be interesting to know if Bill Sables knows it. Nice album, all round. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 01:47 PM Peter I think that Tommy came from around the Hilltown area in Co. Down so the place names could be from there. The names sound like local place names. Roads etc. were sometimes named for prominent families that lived in the area. eg Ryan road or Ryan's road. His brother, I think its Colum has a recording studio in Rostrevor. I used to go to school with his cousins who lived in a small place called Turlough's hill. Den |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 02:18 PM Hello Den, the name of the town where Isaac Scott was killed sounds like -- "just outside of Canbrough?(Cranbrough?) Town" and he liked to dance "up" there. Sean has a pretty strong accent, so it is hard to hear. My big Times Atlas, which shows Hilltown, doesn't help beyond that. I don't really know why I am asking, just that these little things nag at you. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:19 PM Hi Peter the name of the town is Camlough in south Armagh which is a few miles from Newry. I've been following these posts from work and kept trying to remember the words of the song. I have the album at home. The words that Wolfgang posted didn't look right to me either. I used to practise with a band in Camlough. The drummer rented a farm house there. Hope this has been helpful. Den |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:30 PM Dear Den, I don't think the workworld is getting much value from me either today! I have the tape with me today, and it still doesn't sound right. I can't believe an Ulster accent (I had an Ulster greatgrandpapa) would pronounce "Camlough" with a "bri" in it -- as far as I can hear. Unless there is a slang local version? If you have the album at home, you might check it out with your local ears. Also, is it Alice fair, or Alice Fail (or Phail)?Nag, nag. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:37 PM Sorry Wolfgang I just reread my post,"didn't look right to me either", and its sounds like I'm being critical after you went to the trouble of getting a lot of information. What I should have said was the words looked a little different from what I remember. I'll check it out when I get home Peter. I think it is Alice fair though. Den about to leave work some what sheepishly. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: John Moulden Date: 23 Jul 99 - 03:49 PM The personal names given in the Tommy Sands Songbook (1989) are Allan Bell and Seán O'Malley. Place names are Benagh, Ryan Road, just outside Newry town. Tommy's note tells of personal acquaintance with the two - they had been at his house. He relates that one July someone remarked "No matter how close the "Troubles" get to us, it won't change us, for we're friends and we know each other." I feel I should say that Tommy says nothing about the Local Protestants deciding to kill a Catholic and it's my experience that such killings were ordered and carried out by people who did not know the victim. Very seldom was terrorism practised by neighbour upon neighbour - local people would have known of and respected the friendship. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jul 99 - 05:22 PM Here's a YouTube recording of Tommy Sands singing "There Were Roses": And one by Sean Keane: |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM Peter you're not going to believe this. I have the Tommy Sands album on record and just after I finished playing the song once through the little needle fell out of the end of the stylus. So I couldn't double check. I have to concur with John though it is outside Newry town. I'm still not sure if its Alice fair or Faile or what. Also he sings I'll tell you of two friends one time who were both good friends of mine. In the version you have could they be singing Banbridge town? Den |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jul 99 - 05:44 PM Seems to be "Agnes" in the Sean Keane version. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:04 PM Den, the stylus is the man (Art T. joke) We are talking about different versions here -- though it is weird that the Songbook makes the ones who we thought were pseudonyms sound like real people. My ears: (1) In the verse about Isaac Scott he comes from somewhere I cannot decipher (sounds like MayMahee); (2) MacDonald has come to court Miss Agnes Phail; (3) Canbree, is what I hear. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:14 PM Peter I fear we have far too much time on our hands *grin* but I must confess you have me hooked. I have never heard the version you have and so I am willing to guess that maybe MayMahee is Mayobridge which would be close to the areas in question. Canbree I have no clue. I will however call my brother who is a walking anthology of things Co. Downish. Den |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 06:28 PM Dear Den, I am about to stop for today, but I must admit that this is stuff I enjoy (why am I here if not?), if it is a bit strange to some people and could be considered ghoulish. It is important to get the details right, I think, especially if you look at Mick's posting about how he will use the real names when he now sings it. The places should be the right ones too. If the newer versions (1993 is Keane's) have the real names and places, that is pretty significant for me. I can't see how Maymahee (or whatever) could turn into Mayobridge. It is a pity we are not working from the same version. What we need to know is whether Keane is working from a new version Sands uses, or changed the words himself for whatever reason. But thanks a million in the meantime. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Den Date: 23 Jul 99 - 07:01 PM Peter I think we will have to go to the source and I'll see what I can do about that in the meantime. Where the heck in the world are you by the way. Seems like we've been at this all day...not that I'm complaining. Just settling back with a bottle of Maclay's Oat Malt Stout, no not Oatmeal, Oat Malt. Den |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Chet W. Date: 23 Jul 99 - 07:46 PM I know this shows my ignorance, but is this the same Sands that starved himself in prison, or was that Bobby Sands? Were they related? Chet |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Tom on Comfort Date: 23 Jul 99 - 08:17 PM Peter, Den, & Wolfgang: Y'all are wonderful; I think the economists are going to have to come up with a new definition of "productivity." Either that or leave it to the folkies. A favorite compliment on construction sites is "You do good work & lots of it." Here's to you. I have a version of the song here on Green Linnet's 20th anniversary double CD album (annap--a pretty good bargain two-fer if you're still looking) sung by Robbie O'Connell with Mick Moloney, Saul Brody, & Liz Carroll backup & harmonies. From a 1985 album "There Were Roses." What it sounds like to me: They sing of Isaac Scott from Bailey and Sean MacDonald from South Armagh. And the town mentioned later sounds like Camlen (Camlough?). I will revisit this thread to find out what more you come up with. Thanks very much. --Tom |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: alison Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:35 PM Hi, I posted the tune before in slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: alison Date: 23 Jul 99 - 09:38 PM Here's another slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Jaxon Date: 26 Jul 99 - 09:00 AM `Just got back from Falcon Ridge and had to share on this thread. Robbie O'Connell told me he learned this song from Tommy just before it was released, while Tommy was staying with him in the states. Tommy wrote the song with the real names, Scott & McDonald, and locations and that's the version he taught Robbie. Apparently, when the album was released, the families took offense to the names being used and the album was recalled. Tommy recorded it again with fictional names and it was rereleased. It certainly accounts for the confusion. Jack Murray |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Peter T. Date: 26 Jul 99 - 09:19 AM Thanks Jaxon, that clears that up -- Mudcat strikes again. If we could just get those place names right... yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Susanne (skw) Date: 10 Oct 04 - 07:07 PM Very late, I know, but I've finally got round to checking my copy of 'Lost Lives' and found that Wolfgang's informed guess above was not entirely successful. Here is what I found: [1999:] 896. July 9, 1973: Isaac Scott, Armagh. Civilian, Protestant, 41, single. A former member of the UDR, he was shot by the IRA at Belleek near Newtownhamilton as he started his car after leaving Tully's, the village pub. Another man was seriously injured in the shooting. The gun attack happened just after midnight, Isaac Scott and a woman having just got into his car when shots were fired through the windscreen, killing him instantly. It emerged sometime after his death that Isaac Scott, who came from Mayobridge, was a former member of 3 UDR in Co. Down. His woman companion told the inquest she did not know if anyone in the bar knew he had been in the UDR or that he was a Protestant. The following month a Catholic man, Charles J. McDonnell, was shot dead nearby in an apparent reprisal. (Lost Lives 377) 924. August 22, 1973: Charles J. McDonnell, Down. Civilian, Catholic, 20, single. From Carrowmannon, Belleek, he was shot in the head and chest after being abducted by armed and masked UDA/UFF men from outside his fiancée's home. The couple were sitting in a car when the gang ordered him out, drove him a short distance away then shot him 11 times from close range. As the gunmen took him away they told his fiancée, 'This is for Isaac Scott.' The shooting took place not far from the Mayobridge home of Isaac Scott, who had been shot dead the previous month. Charles McDonnell's 18-year-old fiancée gave evidence at the inquest. She said: 'We went to bingo and had just got home at 11.30 p.m. We were sitting talking about the wedding next year when a car drew up behind us. We didn't take any notice of it because I thought it was my brother coming home. Suddenly the door burst open and the gunmen, wearing masks, ordered Charles out. They told me to go inside and the last I saw of Charles was when they bundled him into the back seat of the car. He didn't do anybody any harm - what am I going to do without him?' A man calling himself 'Captain Black of the UFF' called a Belfast newspaper and accepted responsibility for the McDonnell murder. A detective told the inquest no one had been charged with the killing. (Lost Lives 386 f.) |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: GUEST,emily rain Date: 10 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM susanne and everyone, thanks for the info and especially for refreshing the thread; i hadn't thought to research the question of which names were the original ones, but this discussion has been most enlightening. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Oct 04 - 01:11 PM Thanks, Susanne. I had noticed the discrepancy when reading Lost lives but hadn't thought of this old thread. The CAIN website still has the names and dates as given by me, but I tend to trust Lost Lives here. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Rasener Date: 12 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM If you wan't to hear a lovely version of this song, then get to see Lucy Wright and Paul Young if they are in your area. I am talking about the UK. They are only 19 but have a fantastic future. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: GUEST,SLIM Date: 30 Mar 07 - 07:48 AM I'm Reading Tommy Sands Biog the Song Man. He does say he had been asked by the families to change names. The description he gives for what happened to Sean McDonald matches what happened above. Fantastic song though such terrible circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:02 AM So we have the names, but still not for sure on the place names, yes? |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: MuddleC Date: 30 Mar 07 - 01:18 PM Cara Dillon sings a beautiful version of this song on her CD 'Sweet Liberty'; the references are, Issac Scott, Sean McDonald , Ryan Road......?! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THERE WERE ROSES (Tommy Sands) From: terrier Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM Hi I've just come across this thread, I hope this may be of some interest. I had not heard about Tommy Sands changing the names of the victims in the song and I bet over the years, many singers have interpreted the song in their own way whilst keeping true to the sentiment. I took these words from a live concert recording of Tommy Sands and I must say his diction was very clear and easy to understand. It is certainly a very powerful song and meant a lot to Sands while singing it. This performance must be well befor the release of the record. There Were Roses........ Chorus: There were roses, roses and there were roses and the tears of the people ran together. My song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad Nor for adding to the sorrows of this troubled Northern land, But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind To tell you of two friends one time who were both good friends of mine. Isaac Scott from Feanna, he lived just across the field, A great man for the music and the dancing and the reels. McDonald came from South Armagh, to court young Agnes fair And we'd often meet on the Ryan Road and the laughter filled the air. Though Isaac he was a Protestant and Sean was Catholic born, It never made a difference, for our friendship it was strong. And sometimes in the evening when we heard the sound of drums, We said "It won't divide us; we will always be as one." For the ground our fathers ploughed in, the soil it was the same, And the places where we say our prayers have just got different names. We thought about the friends who died and we hoped there'd be no more. It's little then we realised the tragedy in store. It was on the Sunday morning when the awful news came round, Another killing had been done, just outside Camlough Town. We knew that Isaac danced up there, we knew he liked the band, But when we heard that he was dead, we just could not understand. We gathered at the graveside on that cold and rainy day, And the Minister he closed his eyes and he prayed for no revenge, And all the ones who knew him, from along the Ryan Road, They bowed their heads and said a prayer for the resting of his soul. Well, fear it filled the countryside, there was fear in every home, When the car of death came prowling down the lonely Ryan Road. A Catholic would be killed to-night to even up the score, Oh! Christ, it's young McDonald that they've taken from the door. "Isaac was my friend," he cried. He begged them through his fear, But centuries of hatred are fears that cannot heal. An eye for an eye was all that filled their mind And another eye for another eye, 'till everyone is blind. Repeat Verse One I don't know where the moral is, or where the song should end, But I wonder just how many wars are fought between good friends. And those that give the orders, they are not the ones to die - It's Scott and McDonald and the likes of you and I. Written by Tommy Sands. |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: MuddleC Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM Thanks for that terrier. Cara's version misses some verses, and it is worth having all the verses in my view. She has Camlough as ' Newry', but 'Feanna' seems to have emerged as a new location........... , |
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Subject: RE: 'There Were Roses' Query From: GUEST,Sandy Date: 24 Oct 10 - 07:45 AM Isaac Scott Came from the townland of Benagh near Mayobridge while Sean Mc Donald came from Beleek near Camlough in South Armagh. Regards. Sandy |
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