BS: Christmas? A rant

Subject: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

I have just finished looking at adverts from eighteen (18) different retailers for sales beginning tomorrow. Not even one of these refers in any way to Christmas. Well, a few do show snow flakes or baubles in the background, but the few times the C word shows up it is to advertise a 'Christmas tree'.

I have heard that one particular clothing store will put up no Christmas decorations at all. True? I don't know. The last several years, Disney's holiday jingle to the tune of "Down the Chimney" replaced 'Saint Nick' in the lyric with 'Santa Nick', as if we don't know what Santa means.

Very few folks who decorate their house use any sort of religious symbols. Many just have a string of white light to look like icicles. Too bad; the sentiment was beautiful.

My family doesn't personally celebrate Christmas, although we do send 'Christmas cards' to folks we know who do celebrate.

So the rant is--What's the point of giving gifts in December if there is no underlying meaning to them anymore? Why not give gifts in August when nothing much else is going on? Or on my birthday?--That would be swell.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:42 PM

If you don't watch television and basically just don't worry about all the bla-bla on there, it's not much of a problem. Even better if you don't listen to the radio either. That's what I find. As for all the printed advertising that lands in my mailbox, I just drop it in the recycling bin on the way back to the door and never read any of it.

And if you don't want to give gifts...don't. Why get stressed out over something you can just as easily ignore by focusing on other things instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Well, the Conventional Wisdom is that the term "Christmas" is offensive to at least some people nowadays, so it might be better for merchants to avoid the risk of offending a customer and use a secularized term like "holidays." In some circumstances, especially in stores and other businesses, I agree.

But I work as a volunteer at a women's center that is operated by two nuns (our volunteers and clients come from a wide variety of belief groups). When I took over operation of the Women's Center Website, I found a page that talked about our Christmas Store - except that the page very carefully used the word "holiday" and never once made mention of "Christmas." One of the first changes I made to the Website was to substitute the word "Christmas" for most of the times "holiday" was used. To me, it seemed silly to think that nuns shouldn't be allowed to be associated with the word "Christmas." Oh, and the nuns approved of the changes I made, even though I didn't ask for permission first.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Good for you, Joe. ;-)

I think that people who are so flipping culturally "sensitive" that the word "Christmas" offends them should get to spend a month or two living at survival level in a Somali refugee camp or something. They would come back with a much-adjusted tolerance level and find themselves offended by not nearly as many things as before they took that little refresher course in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:02 PM

Basic life rule is, if you know what you are doing, and it needs doing, don't ask permission. Doesn't always apply, but more often than not it's the right way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

I'm with Joe on this. Christmas is Christmas and it is weird that people try to pretend it is not Christmas or that it should be called something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

Well, I can't honestly say that I pay much attention to advertising, at this time of year or any other, or listen to the words of whatever piped-in "music" is available in the mall. Come to think of it, I avoid the mall.

I do think that this ongoing trend...assuming that this should be a matter of concern at all...really means that we have all come full circle. After all, the early Christians stole the solstice holiday (the time that the sun returned), which was celebrated in the frozen lands of Northern Europe with feasting, gift giving and merry-making, and used it to celebrate the birth of their Christ instead. {Most likely Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazaret was born sometime in December or January, and I suppose December 25th is as good a guess as any.}

Going back to an earlier form of celebration seems fine to me - and there is no reason at all that the Christians, the Jews, the Wiccans, the African-Americans or anyone else shouldn't be able to celebrate it in their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM

Yup, bring back CHRISTmas....and those who don't like it can go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

If the Muslims will agree to ignore Christmas, I will solemnly swear to pay no attention to Ramadan.

Sounds fair, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:26 PM

Exactly, pdq. I mean, heck, I don't have any problem ignoring Chanukah or Purim, and they don't bother me at all, so why should a Jew be bothered by Christmas when he can just ignore it?

Just focus on what works for you. I've never been to a Bar Mitzvah and I didn't even notice what I missed. Nor have I ever been baptized. And I haven't been to Mecca. Yet...somehow I feel reasonably fulfilled in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Guest Emma B
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:33 PM

I am not a christian but I DO celebrate the winter solstice in much the same way as artbrooks described with feasting, gift giving and merry-making.

Have you heard about another feature of the season Lizzie - known as good will?
Or do you prefer that those who don't celebrate in one particular religion (i.e. yours!) should all 'go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow... '


Hanukkah (Hanukah / Hanuka / Chanukah)
is a festival of lights that is symbolized by the candelabrum known as a menorah. Hanukkah celebrates a lighting miracle when one night's worth of oil lit candles for 8 days.

Special foods and gift-giving are also a part of Hanukkah

Sankranti:
The Hindu Sankranti historically takes place on the Solstice, although the date is January 14, which gives evidence to how much time has elapsed since it started. It is believed that people who die on this day end the reincarnation cycle, for which reason it is very lucky.

Gifts are exchanged, sweets and other special food are consumed

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

Jesus Christ is reverenced by Muslims as a prophet, second only to Muhammed. It's never Muslims or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists who object to Christmas being called Christmas, and publicly celebrated.

And I may not keep Ramadan, with all that fasting, but I'm happy to join Muslims in any celebration of Eid. Or Hindus celebrating Diwali, or Jews with Hanukah, or what have you.

The more holidays and celebrations the better - and given their rightful names, to celebrate our diversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

Well said, McGrath. I have found most of the Muslims I know in Canada to be very hospitable, reliable, and kind people, and they all celebrate Christmas as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 06:58 PM

Growing up in Scotland, we didn't really celebrate Christmas. The main winter festival was New Year, and there was always at least one report of a Headmaster (usually a Seceder) refusing to let his school celebrate a pagan festival. We had a small family party with presents, rather like a glorified Sunday, though the vast majority of churches were closed.

Santa Claus, after all, owes more to Odin than to St Nicholas (who only gave presents to the poor), and the Christmas tree is a relic of pagan Germanic human sacrifices.

As to referring to it as "holiday", isn't this just "Holy Day" referring to a Christian religious festival?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: gnomad
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

If one cannot call Christmas by that name what is its point anyway? And how is holiday (Holy day) any better for those supposedly offended?

I ask these questions as a non-believer who is not offended. The feast that people are observing needs its name, be it Christmas, Yom Kippur, or the anniversary of Kermit's first panic attack. Let folk celebrate whatever event(s) they wish, in the manner of their choosing, subject to normal behavioural bounds.

I have not encountered anyone professing a non-Christian religion who voiced an objection to the term Christmas. In my experience such objections generally come from militant atheists, or from a few nominal Christians who lack the courage of their convictions.

Mind you, I would happily see the event confined to the twelve days, but that is a matter of taste, and of boredom threshold.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:07 PM

Holiday has become a generic term, which can apply to government holidays, too, like 4th of July.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

"In my experience such objections generally come from militant atheists, or from a few nominal Christians who lack the courage of their convictions."

or from Evangelical Christians who object to Christs's name being applied to a pagan festival!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Come Back, Ebenezer

1.The first Nowell that the angels did say
Was a Noel Edmonds Special upon Christmas Day
All hail to the brain dead forget silent night
Fill up every channel with wall to wall sh**e

2.Away in a manger, no crib for a bed,
They've barcoded Jesus stuck a paper hat on his head
Like cattle we're seething let's make the tills ring,
With big mouths and big bums and obnoxious offspring

Chorus:-

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

3.Oh come all ye faithful, oh come ye three kings
Bear the gift of Bing Crosby to make us all cringe
Let's all stuff our faces, and loudly get pissed
Unto us is born Johnny Mathis to drive us all round the twist.

4.Lets deck all the halls with boughs of holly
Fill up the bars with every rentagob wally
It certainly would have advanced peace on earth
If someone had strangled Cliff Richard at birth.

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

5.Hark the Herald Angels jingle and wassail
Here's a health to the credit card, to Cliff's wallet all hail
And just for a parting gift to all mankind
That f***ing record by Slade for the 3 millionth time

Come back, Ebenezer, when all's said and done,
Put it down to your dry sense of humour
Wheel your trolley to the checkout,
Stick on a false grin
And become a festive consumer.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:14 PM

Stan Freberg, Green Chri$tma$

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

",,,bring back CHRISTmas....and those who don't like it can go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow" -- the irony was not lost on me, Lizzie. Thanks for pointing out that there's no set form for intolerance.

I was raised Christian and I'm a non-believer these days, although you'd need a checklist with thousands of yes or no answers to determine what I do or don't believe in. I think it's possible that everyone who says they're Christian might need a hundred or so fewer questions.

Christmas is, for me, a time when loved ones get together and just try to be a little bit better. It's white and red and green. It smells like spruce and pine, cinnamon and cloves, roasting turkey, sage and thyme. It's tinsel and ornaments and lights and packages wrapped up in brightly colored paper. It's visiting with friends and neighbors. I know what it feels like to celebrate the religion, and I know how it feels to just celebrate the time of year. I think that whatever you celebrate is fine, but best if love and generosity are part of it.

The stores are just cashing in on the tradition. Buy stuff or ignore the sales--they don't force people to believe anything--they don't even force anyone to buy their wares. Businesses can never control what's in people's hearts, and I find no reason to think they should be trying to.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

If you want to read more stuff by people who want to ban Christmas, check out these folks...

                                                            American Humanist Association

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

In UK . the people who create problems for anyone trying to celebrate Christmas seem to be the Over Sensitive Politically Sensitive Pillocks who are SO concerned about upsetting all those other people who frankly dont give a S**t about what WE do .
But PLEASE dont start the celebrations at least until the Start of Advent !

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

I'm a humanist. I'm good with Christmas.

But Emma's points are spot on. Giok asks why we give gifts and have a knees-up in the winter if it's no longer anything to do with Christ.

Well, as most folkies know, Christmas was grafted onto much older, midwinter celebrations. Lots of religions have them. I'm not a Christian, but neither am I a pagan - I still like to have a bit of a knees-up at the darkest time of the year, which is really what it was all about in the first place, right? Banishing the cold and the darkness with a bit of festivity? I mean, everyone knows Jesus wasn't actually born on the 25th of December, and it was in the desert and everything. Not a lot to really make it bear any resemblance to the midwinter revelry we know today - but then again, the midwinter revelry came first anyway. I genuinely love carols like "In the Bleak Midwinter" precisely because they graft a particular kind of Englishness onto this utterly foreign experience. Kinda like Holman Hunt's very English-looking Jesus in The Light of the World.

I remember at my Convent school one of the priests once told us that Easter is the most important holiday in the Christian calendar, not Christmas, and if we revered Christmas over Easter we were all heathen blasphemers who were going to hell in a handcart. Did that make us love Easter any more? Nope. But, you know, there wasn't midnight mass at Easter. Or carolling, or any of the other good stuff, except swanning around on the boardwalk in a big hat. It was a bit rubbish in comparison, really. Maybe there's simply something a bit deeper in us that longs to celebrate at this time of year.

I'm happy to call it Christmas, because it's traditional ;). I'm not that bothered about contemplating Christ's birth, but I love each and every other tradition that goes along with it. So yes, I'll be hauling my agnostic arse down to our 1000 year old village church on Christmas eve. The church will be lit with candles, and the children in the village will sing, and I'll probably get roped into serving mulled wine and mince pies like last year. And then we'll go to the pub on the village green, and I will share a drink and a laugh with my neighbours around the fire.

That's my Christmas - totally traditional, and totally godless. And anyone who doesn't like it is equally welcome to cool their bums in a snowdrift. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

Sorry, it wan't Giok who asked why we bother, it was the OP, John on the Sunset Coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:28 PM

"...and it was in the desert and everything. Not a lot to really make it bear any resemblance to the midwinter..."

Not that there's anything about it in the Gospel narratives - but in fact it does snow in the Holy Land. Here is a picture of a snowy Bethlehem.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:39 PM

Man, Little Hawk, you completely missed the gist of my opening post.

I'm ranting because merchants peddle merchandise as if there is a special reason when it has becomes less and less so. Most people give gifts in December for reasons that are longer seasonally important. Those December gifts would have just as much or as little meaning, if given at any other time.

I know there are many Christians who celebrate the Nativity, giving gifts in honor of the holiday, not just giving lip service to it. I'm not railing against them. My admiration for them is profound.

I don't celebrate Christmas because I am not a Christian. I'm not offended by Christmas. I am offended by those who are offended by an overt celebration of Christmas as a religious holiday!

Not only that, am I not offended by the public or private celebration of any religion's holidays; I am joyed to see the traditions and the trappings that go with them.

Finally Hawk, you choose the things that tick you off and I'll choose my battles; at this time, this ticks me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:58 PM

Well said, Jeri and Ruth. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

Like the saying "live and let live",

... celebrate and let celebrate!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:40 AM

we also have the excessive commercialism (buy our expensive stuff to show them you love them!, overfeed them all this food to show you love them!, go into debt, with no interest for lots of months, to show you love them!) & the PC mob saying don't use the word 'Christmas' cos it will offend members of other religions, like Muslims, Jews, Hindus, & the representatives of these other religions saying we're not offended & the PC folks saying, yes you are, we know best!

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:51 AM

I thought, John, that the gist of your opening post was primarily that you are bugged by all the commercialism and selling at Christmas, not by the holiday itself. That barrage of commercialism bugs me too, and I avoid it mainly by just not tuning in to the broadcast media.

Then I got talking about some other stuff, cos one thing leads to another. ;-)

Fewer things "bug" me as time goes by, because I don't tend to dwell much on things that bug me...although there are some political issues I remain quite interested in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 08:31 AM

Amen, Jeri and Ruth!

As for me, I play the music, sing the songs, light the lights, bring in the greens, set out the lovely carved-wood nativity scene from the southern Appalachians, and celebrate as my good friend Alouette wrote in a round that came to her in a flash one Solstice:

"Candles keep us from the dark, and fire from the cold,
Good friends, good food, and music are light for the soul."
(can't figure out how or where to upload an mp3 of this wonderful song, but pm me and I'll email it!)


Ads? Crass commercialism? I just ignore them, as I do the rest of the year.

Allison



(It helps that we own neither a tv nor a radio!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

I don't mind you celebrating christmas, provided you don't mind me and mine celebrating Yule.

This is very much family orientated - we shall be fortunate to have four generations round the festive table on December 21st.

There are presents ; there is thanksgiving for family, and praise to the gods that we have survived another year.

There is fire, and candles - artificial light is a no-no, except for those which are called "fairy lights" on Odin's tree.

We get up with the Sun, and go to bed with the Sun, over this sacred time.

There is much love, great food (but not gluttony, which is well discouraged) ; drink for those who want it; and, most important, at midnight on the 20th, cakes and ale are taken to a convenient oak tree, in praise and thanksgiving to the
Great Mother and the All Father.

On the 'day' of the 21st we go to neighbours and bring cakes and ale for sharing.

Sound familiar ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:23 AM

We get up with the Sun, and go to bed with the Sun, over this sacred time.

Hardly worth getting up, Bryn - especially up in these latitudes! Solstice Point in the UK this year is 17.47, on the 21st - by which time you'll be safely tucked up in bed!

As a SAD suffering atheist I'm quite happy to celebrate the Solstice, Christmas, Xmas, Hanaka, Winterval, Festivus (for the Rest of Us), or whatever other nonsense humans have come up with over the years to cope with the savage realities of winter. Shame hibernation wasn't one of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 10:44 AM

Sorry, Hawk...my bad , as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:33 PM

cos it will offend members of other religions, like Muslims, Jews, Hindus, & the representatives of these other religions saying we're not offended & the PC folks saying, yes you are, we know best!

Sums it up nicely.

The Mail and the Express will be running "Carols Banned" or "Winterland" stories soon (if they haven't already started).

Try putting "Council Bans Christmas" into Google.

You get loads of hits, all of which turn out to be horlicks once investigated. But by then Nick Griffin and his mates have quoted them and so they go around and around.

Personally I'm out at an Eid party tonight. The problem is a shortage of taxis.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: DougR
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM

L.H.: don't watch TV? Don't listen to radio? Does that account for the fact that in your posts you always appear so well informed? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Well, both extremes make me nervous - those who want to "put Christ in Christmas" and shove it down your throat; and those who think the word is offensive and must be avoided.

But hey, I love Christmas, or whatever winter holiday you want to celebrate with me. In the Northern Hemisphere, December is a pretty dreary month, with grey skies and dead vegetation. The Christmas traditions and gift-giving and music do a lot to brighten up a dreary season. Who'd want to bother with decorations and gift-giving in August, when you can go hiking and swimming and camping? Who wants to gather in a home in July, when you can be outside enjoying the evening sunlight?

I made a foray out last night (Thursday) to take advantage on a one-day sale on power tools. They were sold out. What a drag. I think I'll stay home on Black Friday and enjoy the fireplace and my family and the leftovers.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

Yes, an excellent time for a family gathering in the drear of winter. No other excuse needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:54 PM

What's all this about deeper meaning???

Xmas was a pagan / Roman festival hijacked so the proselytising Christians could make it easier to convert them.

Xmas is, like anything else, what you make it. I am not a Christian, in fact I am not a member of any superstition. So I do get a bit angry when Christians try claiming you cannot enjoy it as much if you miss out the little baby jesus...

I enjoy it by eating, drinking, laughing, seeing my lads, watching the football.....

That IS Xmas. Or at least it is my Xmas. If yours is different, then good luck. Just don't try enforcing yours onto mine.

I keep looking for those Santa on a cross figures that were popular a few years ago. Keep the god botherers from the door. (And some of her happy clappy relatives for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

"Have you heard about another feature of the season Lizzie - known as good will?
Or do you prefer that those who don't celebrate in one particular religion (i.e. yours!) should all 'go shove their intolerant backsides in the snow... '"


yup, I sure have heard of Goodwill, Emma. Have you though?

I'm not talking about other religions here....heck, *I* don't have a religion...but I respect people who DO. And if they want cards with Jesus, Mary and Joseph on, then that's just fine by me. Likewise Nativity plays, the three wise kings, the bible, or nurses praying for their patients, for nothing but kind and loving reasons.

What I cannot abide is people who are constantly trying to put Christianity down, along with all of those who believe in it. We see it on here over and again, but we also know that those very same people who choose to villify Christianity wouldn't DARE to do the same thing with the Jewish or Muslim religion, or any other...

So, if someone would please explain to me why Christianity has been singled out in this way, I'm very ready to listen.

Until I hear a decent explanation, I'll continue to say that those sort of people should go show their intolerant backsides into the snow, because they should either be on here villifying ALL religions, or....NONE at all.

You cannot, in my book, single out Christianity for preferential hate treatement.

And the way that people are almost afraid to admit to being Christian these days says an awful lot, because they've been bullied and laughed at to the point where they'd rather not even admit to their beliefs..and that is wrong.

They bullying culture that has surrounded Christianity for two decades or more has been very wrong, imo...and I also believe that is part of the reason why the Christian Celebration has been deliberately dumbed down and become little more, for the masses, than just another excuse to get paralytic and spend loadsa money.

I loathe the way Christmas has become...so I thought I'd make a stand and tell folks...that's all.

Peace and Goodwill to all religions...and to all non-religious people too who have good souls and kindness in their heart.

The spiteful ones....? Well, there's a snow drift over there...you know what to do...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:26 PM

Happy Mithras. The Persian god was said to be born on Dec. 25.

For the others, Happy Myth-ras.

The christmas tree lights are the symbol of burning trees to bring back the sun.
Time was they burnt the trees on the Winter Solstice, and lo and behold, the sun came back. The days got longer and sunnier.

The picture we have of Santa was painted by a guy who worked for Coca Cola. The Company used it in their ads. (I think Santa gained weight drinking Coke. He was skinnier as European Saint Nicholas).

Did Rudolph get his shiny nose from drinking too much spiked egg nog? Or coke?

Gift giving is a wonderful idea. As was posted above why does it just have to be on Christmas? We could give the wonderful gift of bringing the troops home from Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan but let's not carry this christmas tradition too far. :)

Buy lots of gifts this season and make Wall Street happy.

I think seriously that christmas is a fun holiday if you make it that way. Any excuse for having fun includes any holiday.

Christmas carols are pretty whether you believe in their religious message or not.
I sing 'em joyfully and don't believe a thing they say. Just like folk music texts.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:32 PM

Lizzie Cornish asks why Christianity is singled out and would anybody have a pop at Islam.

1. In The UK, we have a democracy, although we also have Bishops in The House of Lords, so not a democracy at all. As Christians can affect my life, I have every right to point out the emperor has no clothes, (or beard to be precise.)

2. It is always Christians, not any other superstition knocking on my door, trying to influence politics etc.

If a muslim had a pop at me in terms of faith, I would certainly have a pop back. Perhaps the reason christian are singled out, it is because it is christians who go out of their way to interfere with my life.

I was in Dubai last year during Ramadan. The principle was that as a non muslim, I was not expected to fast, that would be silly according to the government there. Just don't drink in front of somebody who is fasting, thats all. Compare that to trying to get served in B&Q after 4..00pm on a Sunday. Ask the store, they would like to be open the same as any other day, and there are staff willing to work too. If christians want to stay at home with a leaky tap, get on with it.

For the record, islam is a superstition same as any other. It just hasn't tried interfering in my life yet. Terrorists hijacking a religion is not the same thing, before somebody starts pointing things out. I was at Kings Cross when the bombs went off, and yes, I was, in a small way, interfered with, but by terrorists, not a religion.

As some philosopher once said, religion is like a swimming baths. All the noise comes from the shallow end.

Jesus saves! Darwin scores on the rebound!

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM

But...didn't Darwin have a downer on God, after his daughter died so young?

Just being Devil's Advocate here..


"As some philosopher once said, religion is like a swimming baths. All the noise comes from the shallow end."

So, are you saying that someone like Mother Theresa of Calcutta is 'shallow' then?

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: pdq
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM

The modern image of Santa Claus as a jolly man with a red suit and white beard came from cartoonist Thomas Nast, about 1862.

He also gave us the Democrat donkey and the Republican elephant.

His cartoons of Boss Tweed were so damaging to the corrupt politician that they were the sourrce for the current word "nasty".

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 04:05 PM

Ah well you see...

Darwin did have issues as everything he worked out went against his upbringing and (some would say) brainwashing conditioning. He certainly had more guts than me. My wife's family are superstitious but I wouldn't dream of setting out to offend them, even though they offend me by getting all annoyed when we don't join them in church when we visit.

His downer on god was, I suppose, easier once he realised the bible wasn't as it were, gospel.

Mother Teresa wasn't a noisy one in terms of religion, she was noisy in terms of getting a better deal for the young of Calcutta. The fact her motivation came from her faith is neither here nor there. My motivation for first going to a folk club was that my older brother used to go to them when I was a kid and I listened to Ewan McColl etc on records because as a 9 year old, you copy your older brother. Once I was 16, I got curious and went to one. Who else has that exact motivation? We all have different ones. Her motivation for her work was religion, my motivation for altruism is whatever it is. Certainly not superstition.

I do take your point that live and let live is important and it does seem christians are getting picked on, but stand back and think about it, the noisy shallow end makes the general noise from the swimming baths unbearable.

I do live and let live, and try to keep my comments general, not personal. The catholic priest who told me (in a debate I was part of in a town hall once) that I will hopefully burn in hell makes my point. It was the word hopefully I took most issue with. The rest was fantasy but the hope was stupid hypocrisy.

Not trying to derail the thread, but just a part of why I feel Xmas is whatever your tradition is, not a fairy story that has been made out to be true, (unless you want it to be.) If non christian cards sell better than christian ones, that;s business for you, and mammon is something that is worshipped far more than this jesus fellow, and both forms of idolatry lead ultimately to sadness and disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 04:33 PM

Well said Jeri and Ruth.

I am not a Christian but I do enjoy the togetherness of Christmas and the New Year, spending time with those I love and just enjoying the season. I would agree that this is a good time, in the Northern Hemisphere at least, for a festival of some sort, a view obviously shared by the Ancients in celebrating the Winter Solstice.

I hate all the commercialism that goes on - adverts suggesting that the only good present is a bauble worth thousands of pounds or a new car. All the push to persuade us to buy more food than we can eat over such a short period and that, if we don't indulge in this excess, we are letting our families (and big business) down.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM

Doug, you rascal! ;-) No, I don't listen to the TV or commercial radio stations, but I keep myself well-informed by reading Canada's best known newspapers (The Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star), by reading many books, and by researching news and current events on the Internet every day.

That way I can pretty much avoid the frantic corporate advertising that I would have foisted on me on commercial radio and TV.

*****


Now, here's a little memo about an office Christmas party, for the amusement of all. Many of you have probably seen it before, but you might still enjoy reading it again:

Company Memo
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All Employees
DATE:    October 1, 2009
RE:       Gala Christmas Party

I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23rd, starting at noon in the private function room at the Grill House. There will be a cash bar and plenty of drinks! We'll have a small band playing traditional carols.. feel free to sing along. And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus! A Christmas tree will be lit at 1:00 PM. Exchanges of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10.00 to make the giving of gifts easy for everyone's pockets. This gathering is only for employees!
Our CEO will make a special announcement at that time!
Merry Christmas to you and your family,
Patty

Company Memo
FROM:    Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All Employees
DATE:    October 2, 2009
RE:       Gala Holiday Party

In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Hanukkah is an important holiday, which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year. However, from now on, we're calling it our "Holiday Party." The same policy applies to any other employees who are not Christians and to those still celebrating Reconciliation Day. There will be no Christmas tree, and no Christmas carols will be sung. We will have other types of music for your enjoyment.
Happy now?
Happy Holidays to you and your family,
Patty

Company Memo
FROM:   Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:       All Employees
DATE:   October 3, 2009
RE:       Holiday Party

Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table, you didn't sign your name. I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that reads, "AA Only," you wouldn't be anonymous anymore. How am I supposed to handle this?
Somebody?
And sorry, but forget about the gift exchange, no gifts are allowed since the union members feel that $10.00 is too much money and the executives believe $10.00 is a little chintzy.
REMEMBER: NO GIFTS EXCHANGE WILL BE ALLOWED.

Company Memo
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
To:       All Employees
DATE:   October 4, 2009
RE:       Generic Holiday Party

What a diverse group we are! I had no idea that December 20th begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating and drinking during daylight hours. There goes the party! Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon at this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employees' beliefs. Perhaps the Grill House can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party or else package everything for you to take it home in little foil doggy baggy. Will that work?
Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Weight Watchers to sit farthest from the dessert buffet, and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms. Gays are allowed to sit with each other. Lesbians do not have to sit with Gay men, each group will have their own table.
Yes, there will be flower arrangement for the Gay men's table.
To the person asking permission to cross dress, the Grill House asks that no cross-dressing be allowed, apparently because of concerns about confusion in the restrooms. Sorry
We will have booster seats for short people.
Low-fat food will be available for those on a diet.
I am sorry to report that we cannot control the amount of salt used in the food. The Grill House suggests that people with high blood pressure taste a bite first.
There will be fresh "low sugar" fruits as dessert for diabetics, but the restaurant cannot supply "no sugar" desserts. Sorry!

Did I miss anything?!?!?
Patty
Company Memo
FROM:   Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director
TO:         All F*%^ing Employees
DATE:    October 5, 2009
RE:         The F*%^ing Holiday Party

I've had it with you vegetarian pricks!!! We're going to keep this party at the Grill House whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the "grill of death," as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your f*%^ing salad bar, including organic tomatoes. But you know, tomatoes have feelings, too. They scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them scream right NOW!
The rest of you f*%^ing weirdoes can kiss my *ss. I hope you all have a rotten holiday!
Drive drunk and die,
The B*tch from H*ll!!!
Company Memo
FROM: Joan Bishop, Acting Human Resources Director
DATE:   October 6, 2009
RE:       Patty Lewis and Holiday Party

I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery and I'll continue to forward your cards to her.
In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.
Happy Holidays!
Joan

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM

"...cartoonist Thomas Nast, about 1862... His cartoons of Boss Tweed were so damaging to the corrupt politician that they were the source for the current word "nasty".

Sorry to spoil a good derivation, pdq, but the word "nasty" has been around for a lot longer than that. Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives it as "late Middle English, origin unknown", but with the earliest reference being from 1548, with the sense "offensive to smell or taste, nauseous".

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

Pardon me if I don't think that a store showing a religious Christmas scene as well as video game display, or playing Christmas Carols as well as Frosty the Snowman is shoving it down your throat. Be adult for heaven's sake! Accept Christmas symbols or ignore Christmas symbols, but don't cause them to be banned, especially in private places catering to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas? A rant
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 06:55 PM

I'm struggling to see where anyone on this thread has said they ought to be banned...


You know, some people particularly prone to seeing folk devils everywhere. At the end of the day most people manage to keep a sense of balance and perspective in their lives. But those people who insist on tilting at non-existent windmills make me feel rather sad, because their lives would probably be much happier if they could stop raging at demons that simply aren't there.