BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK

Subject: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:10 AM

So, they've finally woken up!

Hey, it's only cost the country BILLIONS in Police overtime, NHS overtime, Clean-up overtime....but yes, New Ostrich Labour have just realised that we have a BIG Alocohol Problem in this country!

Of course, it's NOTHING to do with their 24 hour Opening policy, oh no, no, no....

They've now said that their tightening up on pubs and clubs, saying that the 'all you can drink' promotions are to be banned, and checks made on all young people's age. Failure to check the age of their customers could result in 6 months in prison.

They've not done a thing about booze in supermarkets though, as they deem the supermarkets 'responsible'.

Of course, NO-ONE is asking WHY so many young people want to drink themselves senseless 24/7, because that would mean thinking on a social level, and heaven forbid we should start doing that.   

We have a whole generation, possibly more, who are now well on their way to becoming alcoholics, and no-one gives a shite.

Way too little, way too late....


Of course, if young people weren't put on the Conveyer Belt of Life from when they're babies, that might help.

If they weren't tested and examined from playgroup onwards, that might help.

If they were taught kindness and compassion, rather than scientific math, that might help.

If they went to schools where they were taught by people who actually **liked** them, *respected* them, and who did all in their power to make learning natural and relaxing, that might help.

If they didn't feel they HAD to go to University, that might help, because then so many wouldn't START their lives deep in debt, with a crap job that brings no help in sight of ever paying it off..

And...if they didn't feel that both partners have to work, forever, to support sky high houses prices, rent prices, fuel prices, etc....THAT might help too.

In short, if young people had the same opportunities, the same relaxed view of life that we all had when we were young, where most things were within the grasp of the 'ordinary' man, and a man could raise his family often just working himself...coming home to his wife/partner and children..THAT might help too....

Meanwhile....the 'Let's Party Party' have led so many young people down the wrong roads, whilst continuing to heap pressure upon them, seeing them as nothing more than Corporate Fodder.

They, and all other politicians who have the same view, should hang their heads in 'Fuck, we are actually RESPONSIBLE for all this shite!' Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:25 AM

Oh no, not that weary old rant about the education system again, Lizzie. Give it a rest!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:45 AM

The UK has had a drink problem as long as I can remember. Which is, well, as long as I have been drinking. Maybe it's me!

I agree that there is an issue, although when people say it is only the UK I would disagree - I lived in Belgium for a fair while and saw what the Germans and Dutch can be like. I am not sure what it is. It is certainly NOT entirely the fault of the education system although education on drinking may help.

Quite simply - If the education system itself was at fault I would expect everyone that went though it to have the same problems and that is just not the case. The number of problem drinkers are still in the minority.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:53 AM

Oh - and BTW - The only people any government measures will affect are responsible drinkers. Binge and problem drinkers will carry on as they are. The only ones that will be financialy hurt are the relatives of those with a problem.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:55 AM

Others get financially hurt too - have you seen what the VAT (note for overseas readers: a purchase tax imposed on 'non-essential' items) increase has done to the price of a case of decent Burgundy ??

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:23 AM

Shut pubs at 11pm with half hour drinking up time from 10:30 as it used to be.

Plus all the other ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:30 AM

Nah - shutting pubs at 11 will only mean that the pissheads will be out and about earlier. I'd rather have them around at 3am when I am in bed:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

Boot's on the other foot. Give schools (back) the powers to keep the little animals under control and to compel them to do the work their idle little arses don't want to do and then the things that are presently ineducable and unemployable might come out the other end able to do something with their lives other than wanting to be Jade Goody or Jordan or Callum Best.

The most accurate depiction of children allowed to do what comes naturally is Golding's "Lord of the Flies". Children are nasty until civilised by external forces. Look at what siblings do to each other.

If children are civilised and educated (which necessitates compulsion) then there will be fewer of the no-hope louts who rightly know in their hearts that they are scum and then there will be fewer who need to drown their resentment at the fact that decent people despise them.

If in doubt revisit history of the gin-house era: drunk for a penny, dead drunk for twopence.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:39 AM

Wrong, Dave. I'd rather be disturbed by them yawping and bawling about under my bedroom window at 11 pm, when I'm going to bed but still awake, than at 3 am, when I've been asleep three or four hours.   :-(

And the idea that the serial piss-heads wouldn't get so pissed if the pubs were open longer was, quite frankly, ridiculous and those of us with more than one working brain cell said so at the time. It was as plain as the nose on your face that those tossers would get just as pissed, or probably more so, and it just shows what kind of cloud-cuckoo-land our self-serving, expenses-cheating MPs live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:40 AM

Spot-on Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM

Nope, I'm sorry, but it's no good saying that 'it's always been this way' because it hasn't.

Once you could walk around any city centre and you'd only see the occasional drunk here and there. Now, you have places like Cardiff and Nottingham, and a whole lot of others too, where the streets are filled with police cars and ambulances in the early hours of the morning.

In Nottingham alone there are over 300 pubs and clubs within a square mile..and it was the Chief Constable of Nottingham who called for a stop to the craziness, trying his hardest to fight the Alcohol Industry as they bought up churches, cinemas, anywhere where they could sell, sell, sell...

The NHS has finally admitted that it is almost bankrupting them...Our A&E departments now have security guards to deal with drunken offences against staff....

It was NEVER this way...and grave danger lies in people who have their eyes wide shut all the time, belonging to Ostrich's R Us.

FINALLY this Government has HAD to admit that there is a massive problem...and it is a British one, because hell, we've exported it to other countries when the British go on their holidays.

Sorry, but if you start out as a stressed out child, then you will end up as a stressed out adult...and the Education System, whilst not wholly responsible, IS a big part of what is happening on our streets, along with the terrible dumbing down that's going on, because so many kids are turned OFF from learning by over-examining, over-stressy teachers...

It is also a huge Corporate Industry that for way too long has been sucking in our children....

And don't even get me started on Alcopops...which is the industry's way of making their product 'fun' and getting young kids hooked from a very early age, as stupid parents line up to buy the kids their 'kiddies alcohol' refusing to realise that they are getting them hooked from such an early age.

But hey, you guys carry on telling me it's always been this way..and I'll carry on telling you it hasn't.

There is ALWAYS a reason why people start drinking way in excess and continue doing so.....Always.

We have simply stopped asking, or caring...

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:44 AM

Ah well - there lies the difference, Backwoodsman. In the backwoods the slightest little thing disturbs your sleep. In the cities you could drop a bomb and no-one would notice. So, just becuase it is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for everyone. And, I'm afraid, you country dwellers are in the minority:-)

Richard - I think I may print that off and frame it - Thank you.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:47 AM

No, Richard...children are not like that.   

SOME are, but they are mostly kids who are not loved.

If you want children to go back to how things were, then you have to give them what so many children had back then.

Mothers.

By removing Mothers from the equation, our children have lost out hugely and many of them don't know who the fuck they even are any longer.

Don't tell me that young people aren't stressed about exams, because I have friends with teenage children who are falling apart, as their children fall apart with exam stress. It is REAL, so get your head round it.

Children do NOT need to be raised with Army Discipline, Richard...they need to be raised with Love...and they need to be raised with peace, time and space...

And you just watch their souls grow, in all the right ways...

Yes, we need to bring back respect, especially self-respect, but that ain't gonna happen whilst the young generations see the older ones as people who constantly want to test and control them, in this ever-increasing controlled world.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:48 AM

Sorry Lizzie, but do uou live in Cardiff or Nottingham? I live in Manchester and always have. While I fully agree that there is a drink abuse issue I would disagree that it has got any worse. The only difference between whan I was twenty and now is 37 years! Alcohol abuse is just the latest scape goat. It was Moslems last week. It will probably be Bolivian unicyclists next...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:51 AM

And I'm sorry, but if you lot, as fathers, think that raising kids with Victorian strictness is correct, then I tremble.

Why the fuck do you want to raise children with *fear*..You all sound like some religious crackpots who wanted to instill the Fear of the Lord into them all...

Instill Love, not Fear, and then you may be a long way down the road of changing our society for the better.

And before you all come screeching down on me, yes, Fathers matter as much as Mothers, but Mothers being removed from their children's lives, having no choice but to work, simply to keep a roof over their heads, has damaged our society beyond belief.

Trouble is, most people have been brow-beaten into never daring to state that fact, because the Womens Libbers will kick 'em out of town.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:56 AM

No Dave, I don't live in Nottingham, but I did watch the documentary on that city and it's alcohol problems. I watched the scenes of horror that happen every single weekend and so often weekdays too...I listened to the Chief Constable, saw the pubs and clubs.....

I have family in Cardiff, so I KNOW what happens there..and it's grim, just as it is in so many city centres.

Look it all up yourself, read the reports about the NHS finally admitting they can't cope. Watch the videos, they are all there on Youtube...

Come to Torquay....it's on our streets here too...and most decent people won't even think about going to town late these days...

Even in Sidmouth it was happening...

In Horrabridge I used to watch the kids swinging from the lamposts each night, drunk out of the skulls, as I lived opposite the park..and every morning I'd go out there and clean up the broken glass, the bottles...

So don't tell me that I don't have a clue.   

I do.

I also have friends and colleagues whose kids are out drinking and they don't know what the hell to do.

Get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:59 AM

Lizzie, a lot of middle-class hippie-influenced parents in the 60s & 70s went for the highly laudable raise-them-with-love approach. A lot of the kids they produced are angsty, neurotic, self-centred and arrogant.

I work at a university - I see these kids every day.

I don't advocate 'Victortian strictness' either - there is a big spectrum between those two extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

"In the backwoods the slightest little thing disturbs your sleep. In the cities you could drop a bomb and no-one would notice."

LOL Dave!
Well, I'm in a little town (pop. 16k-ish) with inner-city problems - booze, drugs, crime, high unemployment, infested with a high proportion Jade Goody/Jack Tweed wannabes/lookalikes and their darling little Chardonnay-Madonnas and Tyler-Morgans, you name it. It's comparatively quiet in my street, but Friday and Saturday nights can be a nightmare with these selfish animals screaming and shouting as they pass by on their way back to their lairs. Not to mention pissing on my front grass, puking on my drive, and throwing pizza boxes and burger containers on peoples front gardens.
I really don't believe that people actually need to be pissing it up till three in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:07 AM

Part of raising a child with love is about giving them boundaries, Smedley. And a huge part is about teaching them self-respect and respect for others, because if they know those two things, they ain't going to go too far wrong.

I am not into woolly thinking 'let it be' parents, they are almost as bad as people who beat their kids, because they raise children who have no guidelines and who often grow up as angry as the ones who were beaten.

Love is not about being ignored and left to get on with things. It's about learning what's right and what's wrong, and knowing that you have to make the right choices. It's about supporting and it's about being there...

It's also about being bloody tired out, because you have to put your children first, rather than yourself..and in the 60s and 70s the 'self' often overshadowed all else.

Raising a child is hard, it's time consuming, LIFE consuming, but it's also deeply rewarding.

The 'gang' has now replaced the family...and with that has come oh so many problems..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

I know what you mean, Backwoodsman and glad to see you realised my tongue was firmly in cheek:-) I am lucky I guess - High density population area, 4 miles from Manchester centre, loads of local pubs and quite as a churchyard almost every night:-) Do you know what the most popular name for little girls in Sainsbury's, Salford is? - Chardonnay yer likkle bleeder. :-D

Lizzie - something you may want to think about. From a BBC article back in 1998 -

Psychologist Dr Benjamin Spock, who died on 16 March 1998, lambasted notions of rigid childcare in the1960s with his books on raising children with a gentle touch.

Challenging standard works which told parents never to kiss or cuddle children, he advocated "the need for flexibility and the lack of necessity to worry constantly about spoiling".

Baby and Child Care has become the world's best-selling non-fiction publication after the Bible. But looking at adult/child relationships today, how right was Spock to promote the soft touch?

In a society confused about how properly to discipline children - if at all - teachers still argue for the right to smack unruly pupils.

Some parents, confused about where discipline ends and abuse begins, find their children running free rein over bedtime, food fads and temper tantrums.

And even experiencing children secondhand is confusing. How many of us could testify to an unruly offspring undermining the foundations of strong friendship ?

UK child psychiatrist, Professor John Pearce, is on record as thinking that childcare over the years has gone astray. "I would warn against free expression," he says. "Children need to develop self-control or they become overactive. It's sad when parents are too frightened to set boundaries."

So, from that we can determine -

1. In the 1960s childcare was much more rigid than it is now.
2. As we were brought up in the 50s and 60s our care was more rigid.
3. Childcare has been more lax since

Add to that your premise that

1. The problem was not as big in the past
2. There are now problems with unruly young adults.

What conclusion do we draw from this?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:16 AM

Common sense dictates that there's a centre point where Lizzie and Richard meet, a kind of 'Best Practice' - of course children need to be brought up with love, but also with discipline. They are complementary, and sometimes 'hard love' is the best kind of love (although probably the most difficult to administer).

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:18 AM

Please note - that was refering to parenting btw - Not schooling

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

LOL again, Dave!
The most popular name for a lot of children of both sexes in our town appears to be 'Fuckinshutupyoulittletwat'. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

'Fuck, we are actually RESPONSIBLE for all this shite!'

many of them don't know who the fuck they even are any longer.

Why the fuck do you want to raise children with *fear*..

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:22 AM

But we digress..............

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:22 AM

Thread-drift imminent - sorry!........

A friend works in a nursery in Liverpool. A new child joined last year, and the child's mother said she was keen to give her daughter a 'different' name, and she also thought French names sounded really classy.

She called out to her daughter - (best said in Scouse accent) - "Come here, our Cafetiere".

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:25 AM

Going back to the point though - These binge drinking reforms are not going to work. As I said earlier I don't think the education system is to blame either but I do think education is part of it. I was very pleased to see an advert on TV last night advising people to discuss the effects of alcohol with their children. Whether it will work or not is yet to be seen but I think it is a step in the right direction.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:38 AM

"In Nottingham alone there are over 300 pubs and clubs within a square mile.."

In the early 70s I used to go to Nottingham to drink and it was a pretty riotous place even then. My son went there on Saturday to celebrate his 19th birthday with some fellow students and thought it was quite civilised.

"Sorry, but if you start out as a stressed out child, then you will end up as a stressed out adult..."

Yes, and who stresses them out - not schools but the parents who are responsible for their cultivating children's behavious and attitudes for years before they go to school. If your children are stressed, maybe you should be blaming yourself, not the education system. (Oh, shock horror, that couldn't possibly be - I'm the perfect parent, it's everyone else's fault.)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM

I called my kids after the day they were born on. George, Patrick, Pancake...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM

We've raised a generation to be Ladettes, not Mothers...and now we're seeing the consequences.

We have taken the femininity out of women, making them feel awkward and embarrassed if they want to be feminine. There is now such pressure for them to be 'in-yer-face' drunken louts...

Women do not have the right to be 'everything'...no matter how much they may want to.

If you are a mother, or indeed a father, then you have a huge responsibility ahead and it is your duty (now there's a word we don't see much of anymore) to put your children way above your own needs and wants.

Dave, please read my post about what raising a child with 'love' actually means, to me.

As I said, look at some of the Youtube videos out there, they do not lie. They are shocking. It is shocking to think that young women now see nothing wrong in falling over drunk, to the point where they are so out of it they could be raped and wouldn't even remember.

That's not normal behaviour, and it did NOT happen, en masse, when we were young, hell, women didn't even go INTO pubs on their own back then, because they were thought of as pretty darn 'easy' if they did.

Society has taken away all the rules...and the Feminists have preached that it's a woman's *Right* to dress and behave however she wants. It's not, actually, for there is always a limit and a responsibility that goes along with that..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

LOL again, again Dave! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:49 AM

"Yes, and who stresses them out - not schools but the parents who are responsible for their cultivating children's behavious and attitudes for years before they go to school."

Yup, and so many parents now don't know HOW to be parents. They've absolutely no idea, because they are still 'children' themselves, inside...Stunted Adults who have never crossed the Grown Up barrier, only ever wanting to indulge and be indulged...


"If your children are stressed, maybe you should be blaming yourself, not the education system. (Oh, shock horror, that couldn't possibly be - I'm the perfect parent, it's everyone else's fault.) "

Mine aren't, actually. They know who they are..they've had time to be who they are, in a surrouding where they are not tested and stressed and told off day after day. They've both known both sides of the coin, levels, and they know which side they prefer.

The education system is shite, in many parts of this country now...and even The Educators themselves know it. Heck, did you know that in some circles, they are even connecting with Home Educators to ask their opinions on where it's all going so bloody wrong.

The trouble doesn't start in Primary Schools, although they're getting worse all the time...it starts in these vast factory farms of Secondary schools/colleges...

As the slogan I saw on a billboard in Torquay the other day states:

'Educashon Isn't Working'

....but it's sure playing into the hands of the Alcohol Industry, as are parents who see their children as nothing more than little shites constantly interfering in their lives.

Having a child is NOT compulosory, but Loving them, teaching them respect and right from wrong, **should** be.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:52 AM

"Having a child is NOT compulosory, but Loving them, teaching them respect and right from wrong, **should** be"

Teaching them how to spell 'compulsory' **should** be too, Liz, don'cha fink? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:56 AM

And sorry Lizzie - I meant 'Lizzie' of course, not 'Liz'! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:59 AM

Jesuit motto - Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man

I think it is very true. The foundations are laid well before the child enters any formal education system.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM

read my post about what raising a child with 'love' actually means, to me.

Is saying "fuck" every few minutes part of this? Don't you think you should tell us?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:09 AM

"Teaching them how to spell 'compulsory' **should** be too, Liz, don'cha fink? :-) :-) "


Teaching them NOT to belittle is far more important.


"Jesuit motto - Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man

I think it is very true. The foundations are laid well before the child enters any formal education system."

Our children are now entering 'formal' education systems at birth, actually, in case you aren't aware of it, Dave. They also start 'proper' school at 4 these days...after having had many years in playgroups....sorry....'pre-school learning alliances' (what a fucking ridiculous name that is, apart from ensuring that children aren't allowed to play any longer, only learn)

So, do you not see that the Jesuit motto, which has always disturbed me, is now New Labour's too?   And do you not see their 'men' out there on our streets, drinking their very souls away?

No?

I thought not.


Dave, if you have anything useful to add to this thread, then please do so, but if all you are going to do if fucking well comment on my language then may I suggest you seek out that turnip, yet again...

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM

Our children are now entering 'formal' education systems at birth, actually, in case you aren't aware of it, Dave.

Compulsory (is that spilt rite?) education begins in the September before the child is 5. Has been so for many years and still is. If parent chose to enter their child into an educational establisment before that date how is that the fault of anyone but the parent? And why use the tag 'in case you were not aware of it, Dave' other than to belittle my earlier comment?

And we are still on a completely different topic to the one you started but seeing as it is your thread I guess you can do what you want with it. Up to and including requesting it be closed? :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:21 AM

Oh - and sorry, in answer to your other question. Yes you are quite right. I do not see the Jesuit saying as being somehow taken over by 'New Labour'. I do not see the saying as sinister either. The underlying usage of it in the Jesuit order may have been disturbing but it is still a truism. Whoever has control of the childs early years controls their character as adults. Those on the streets 'drinking their very soul away' (whatever that may mean) are not there because New Labour made them so. Their parents must take some of the responsibility surely, don't you think?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:47 AM

Lighten up Lizzie, it was a leg-pull (two smiley faces).
Teaching them a sense of humour counts for a lot too. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

I've a rollicking sense of humour...I just ain't into belittling, that's all.

I was always taught, by a very loving father to laugh WITH people, and not AT them...but each to their own.

Yeah, you're right Dave, nowt to do with this Nanny State who have taken over the raising of our children. Nowt to do with the fact that most kids not enter school when they are 4, not 5, despite the laws...because of course, the parents want to get rid of Little Johnny as fast as possible...Oh...and yes, schools get paid for taking 4 year olds in...that's why many playgroups, and I refuse to call them anything else, are now inside the school's themselves...

Sleeping Beauty Syndrome is well and truly alive in here...

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:38 AM

OK, you've got a rollicking sense of humour, but it doesn't embrace the important and very useful ability to laugh at yourself. Your loss.

I used to wonder why The Usual Suspects had such a downer on one individual, and I felt great empathy with that individual. I'm beginning to understand what it is that motivates The Usual Suspects and, latterly, finding myself aligning my opinions with theirs rather more than somewhat.

I'm out. Argue amongst yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

because of course, the parents want to get rid of Little Johnny as fast as possible

And this is the fault of the government and th eeducation system because?

BTW - We are now at change of topic number 1 and just one cry of victimisation. I predict at least two of the former, half a dozen of the latter and at least one threat to leave altogther before the thread reaches it's inevitable closure:-)

Any takers?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:57 AM

Dave, if you have anything useful to add to this thread, then please do so, but if all you are going to do if fucking well comment on my language then may I suggest you seek out that turnip, yet again...


Lizzie adding something useful to threads to which you are contributing, used to be what I did.

I offered to help you start a radio programme so you could promote the artists you love so much. Likewise a folk festival which you said Torquay needed and could be organised.

For this I received abuse. When I have pointed out you are wrong - clearly and indisputedly wrong - not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact you scream "foul", complain about being followed by people and continue to spout garbage.

I only bother because those I believe this message board is a community of people whose opinions and knowledge can be useful.

You have threatened to leave this board time after time and then come back shortly afterwards.

People start off by treating you seriously and then find out what you are really like - I see you lost another fan on this thread.

I am just trying to save people time.

And people who care about education don't use obscene language!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:59 AM

If little Johnny learned to do as he was told, maybe people would not want to get rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:04 AM

Precicely, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:10 AM

"I'm out. Argue amongst yourself."

Me too - it's enough to drive you to drink. My round!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:22 AM

Diet coke please, Leveller.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:24 AM

Also ban drinking in the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

"And people who care about education don't use obscene language!"

It's because of the damage the fucking Edukashon System did to my children that I started swearing in the first place.

A folk festival in Torquay? I ain't staying here..so you'll have to do that one...

A radio programme? Yup, I'd still love to do that one...don't have a techy brain though...and you told me I'd have to rub my tummy and recite the Bible backwards, at the same time, or some such thing...maybe it was stand on my head on the railings of Tower Bridge...

and don't worry about Woody, he's just smarting from being told off, which is odd, because he advocates telling children off...soooooooo...T'aint my fault he decided to pick up on a spelling mistake to poke fun...that was his decision, not mine...

Little Johnny IS doing PRECISELY what he's being told, actually, Richard...that's why he's drinking himself senseless out there, because he can't cope with the Conveyer Belt of Life any longer where he has to tick all the boxes and do as his Government tell him.

WHERE are our Rebels? Where are their Voices?

Silenced, by alcohol......and a Government who has given Little Johnny 24/7 Opening Hours....

Bit like Russia, really.

I suppose the next step will be Vodka on the NHS, except they're heading towards bankruptcy from patching Little Johnny up.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:47 AM

Lizzie, I've been told off by experts, so your little tirade disturbs me not one jot. I tried to have a larf with you, you got shitty - end of.

Now, I refuse to join in yet another round of Thread Wrecking with The Mudcat Motley Crew, so these are my last words on this thread.

Goodnight All.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:55 AM

WHERE are our Rebels? Where are their Voices?

We are all here, Lizzie. Rebelling against wooly thinking, wrong way logic and poor arguments, Raising our voices in unison. All but one that is:-)

Change of subject number 2. I am still on track...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 10:13 AM

"And people who care about education don't use obscene language!"

It's because of the damage the fucking Edukashon System did to my children that I started swearing in the first place.

No Lizzie the "education system" and "education" are two different things.

Having spent approximately 20 years longer in the Education System than you I am aware of its foibles and peculiarities.

Please do not swear on this forum - if you would be so kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

Be Fair ! Lizzie DID make a good point in that they pushed twenty four hour opening and THEN Started going on about Binge Drinking

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM

"No, not the result of 24-hour licensing, but a picture of our troubled relationship with the demon drink."

2000 years of binge drinking from Saturday's Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: paula t
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:03 PM

I think that the problem of alcohol abuse has been around for a long time. There is neither a simple cause nor a simple answer.

Yet again I have read that schools and teachers are to blame. In part I have to agree, as a teacher, that many children are under stress because of our target - led education system.However, I also believe that other adults are also to blame. Children today have very little "down time". Their school day is far more structured and full than my school day ever was.Many children are absolutely exhausted at the end of the day. Many of them are then driven to swimming lessons, dance lessons,extra tuition sessions,music schools etc etc.They then come home and start on their homework.There seems to be the belief that children should be occupied and learning all the time and that no time should be wasted.I often wonder how mums and dads would feel if someone dragged them away from the telly -when they flopped there at the end of a hard day -and made them do something "worthwhile and educational."Perhaps we need to lighten up as a society and let our children play ( Just like we did ) without being told off for playing on that lovely grass or making a noise.

I'm not making excuses for poor behaviour, but we seem to resent seeing children out and about, playing and "wasting time".Their lives are so structured and busy. I fear that we will see more and more "burnout" in children.However, this is not just the fault of we dreadful, uncaring, "stressy" teachers. It is the fault of society as a whole.Grown ups can develop drinking problems when they drink to escape. Maybe one of many causes of drinking problems in young people is this need to switch off and forget.

When I was younger (and no, I don't consider myself so old!) ,most pub managers would refuse to serve anyone who appeared to have "had enough." Most people went to a single pub or club for the whole night, and it would quickly become obvious to the landlord or landlady who was drinking to excess or becoming anti-social. A "quiet word" would be had, and the drinking was either then moderated or the person went home.Anyone turning up drunk to a pub or club was refused service. Does this not happen any more? Clubs and pubs seem to cater for "passing trade", with pub crawls more the norm.If drinking was monitored more carefully,then we wouldn't have quite so many people rolling out drunk onto the streets at the end of the night. Young people would still get drunk at first, because everyone needs to learn what their own limits are .I've been there, and a few experiences of ruined, shortened nights out and wretched hangovers soon taught me what my own limits were!

I believe that many adults set a bad example too. Not everyone sprawled on the street is a teenager. In fact I would say that the majority of people I have seen are in their late twenties or early thirties. The most common excuse?They were stressed out and needed to let their hair down.............I'm sure that there are many more reasons for the problem of alcohol abuse and antisocial behaviour , but I should stop typing now because I'm getting on my high horse. Many people will disagree quite strongly with my opinion, but hey, I'm a grown up.I've had a hard day and I'm off to grab a small glass of wine and put my feet up.I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:06 PM

It isn't the first time.

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-62.html#summ

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: paula t
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM

A very interesting article, Folkiedave. Thanks for that.

Paula

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

You've made some really interesting points, Paula, and it's good to get a schoolteacher's perspective on these disputes about education.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:09 PM

Here in the US there is a new fad - insert a funnel in your butt and pour in the scotch. Or have someone else do it for you. A woman is up on murder charges for doing just that for her husband. He died of alcohol poisoning. The intestines absorb the alcohol instantly.
Wouldn't you think that that would burn uncomfortably?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:24 PM

I guess that schools haven't changed too much since I went during and just after the war.

With just two or three exceptions, teachers were a worthless lot. I have to disagree about exams though. Mainly because I used to enjoy them. It was the only challenge one got for the whole term. And I loved math as well, but it was rarely taught properly. I hated sports, but they weren't taught properly either.

Pure math is a game. It is not real. It is fun. But were you ever taught that in school? NO, I guarantee you weren't.

And exam results should also, or mainly, be used to assess the teachers.
Every failure is one on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

And really wouldn't go down well in the local, Sins lol!
Last time I visited a town centre pub I was amazed. The seats had all been taken out and every wall had huge plasma screens playing at full volume. No chance of a conversation or a spot of people watching between drinks. They are designed to get as many people in drinking non stop. The beer is far stronger than most in the past and if you don't like the taste you can have something that tastes like pop that will get you drunk in no time. The sole agenda a lot of kids have is to get as drunk as possible as quickly and cheaply as they can. It has NOTHING to do with working mothers (bearing in mind when they are working the kids are at school anyway)or the education system which is full of VERY caring professionals. It is sadly a sign of the times that everything has to be instant and loud.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Good teachers are worth more than gold, actually Bert....and I'm afraid that schools have changed a great deal.

Please read Paula's wonderful post above, because it so rare that any teacher stands up to admit what is going so wrong....

And I am absolutely with her on all this crazy After School Clubs and Extra Lessons for Little Johnny, where even in the swimming pool he is shouted at, tested, and told to achieve...

It's done so that parents who feel guilty about not being with their children as they should be can say "Oh, Little Johnny's doing SO well! He's an absolutely marvellous human being, because I'm out working for him all day long, to give him swimming lessons, riding lessons, football lessons, extra SATs tuition, extra GCSE tuition..because I'm such a bloody marvellous parent!"

Total crap, of course...because all Little Johnny needs is time to be a child....time to stand and stare, time to play in the fields with his mates, free of cares and worries, homework and exams...

We live in a terribly stressed out society..and those 20/30 year olds are no different to the teenagers now coming up, because this has been going on since they were teenagers...and NEVER before, no matter what articles are produced here...NEVER has my country and it's young people suffered in this way..and the kids ARE suffering...as is the whole of the country, because if you have a young generation out partying 24/7 then you ain't got a workforce who knows which way is up in the morning...

Gone are the days of Friday and Saturday nights out...it's now all week long..and just the other day, on the bus, I was behind two young people who talked about alcohol the ENTIRE bus trip, of about 20 minutes..with the lad saying that when he's spent his £10 cash that he takes out with him each night, he then puts the rest on his credit card...

And here's a blog I wrote a long time back about exactly what Paula talks of above...

All that we are missing through Time

"I'm just a human being trying to make it in a world that is very rapidly losing its understanding of being human." - John Trudell


If all teachers were like Paula..and like Bruce, then our children would be in very safe and caring hands..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

This is NOT the teachers fault, but the Education 'SYSTEM' which is stealing our children's souls, as it drives parents to believe that all life is about, is Achievement.

It is an INDUSTRY, making billions of pounds, and those billions are being made from our children.

Eventually, people will wake up to it.


We are tested as never before, driven by a multi billion dollar industry that demands you have to have this exam and that exam for a job, no matter what your age, or your experience. If you ain't got 'this year's must have piece of qualifying qualification' then you don't get the job...

Cool, huh?

Crap, actually.   And deadly dangerous too, because a society that judeges only on Achievements becomes ruthless and deeply competitive...A Dog eat Dog society...which is exactly what we have.


Sorry, but we need to return to the Old Ways, as fast as we are able.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM

"The sole agenda a lot of kids have is to get as drunk as possible as quickly and cheaply as they can."

And tell me, do you think that's normal? Do you never ask yourself WHY kids want to do this? Can you not see?


"It has NOTHING to do with working mothers (bearing in mind when they are working the kids are at school anyway)"

MANY children now do not even get to eat their breakfast with their families, so rushed and hurried are the mothers to get to work, so they have their breakfasts at school.   Other mothers don't give a shite about their kids and don't even bother to feed them...

HELLOEEE?   Wake UP!

"or the education system which is full of VERY caring professionals."

Sadly, those who truly care are in the minority.


"It is sadly a sign of the times that everything has to be instant and loud."

It is sadly a sign of the times that our apathy has let this all happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

Good teachers are worth more than gold

If all teachers were like Paula..and like Bruce, then our children would be in very safe and caring hands..

Yes Lizzie, I quite agree. It's well worth repeating.

Another problem is homework. It is all too often used to compensate for bad teaching. I had this math teacher once (one of the three good ones I mentioned earlier) who hated homework, he had to assign it because it was part of the course, so he'd give us a couple of the exercises in the first chapter so that he had something to mark.

Mind you he could teach though. I don't know how he did it, he'd stand up there and chat about everything under the sun, and somehow, at the end of the lesson you'd know the math.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

Yes schools have changed a lot - thank goodness!! Maybe not all teachers are like Paula and Bruce but the vast majority are dedicated to helping the children in their care to achieve their full potential not just academically but as a person, socially, morally and as part of society. As for out of hours activities such as music, swimming (surely a necessity not a treat) horse riding etc I can't imagine many kids complaining and these activities were certainly on the go when I was a child so it's nothing new. I can't really see how you can make a connection between kids being given the chance to do such things and alcohol abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:19 PM

Sorry, but we need to return to the Old Ways, as fast as we are able.

Corporal punishment? Classes of 50? Diptheria? Tuberculosis? Scarlet Fever? Measles? Mumps? Polio? The old tripartite system of education? Pupils (let's not call them kids eh?) separated at 11+ and one exam virtually deciding your life? Slum housing? Tin baths? Women knowing their place? Gas lighting?

I look at the old photographs of my town and all I can see is vast improvement. Sure we left our doors unlocked. We had nothing worth stealing.

Or further back than that? Cholera? Typhoid? Horse transport? No transport? One cold water tap? Candle light? Mass overcrowding? Low life expectancy.

I approve as much of binge drinking as I approve of Lizzie's foul language on this thread. Which isn't as she pretends earlier a function of the failure of the Education System. In fact until recently she spelt the word when she used it, "fook" and ocasionally "foook". She also spelt the word "f*ck".

Before about June 2009 she she never swore like that on threads. So even if it was the the Education System that made her use obscene language she never used it on Mudcat. It is simply that Mudcat moderators let her do it.

Fortunately the rest of us have different standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

No, Dave, you know that is NOT what I meant. And in your rush to belittle my words, you have completely misconstrued them. I said the 'Old WAYS, not the Old DAYS'...


Teachers, in my school, did not make you feel that without your exams you were *nothing*. There were bad teachers, there always are, but teachers were allowed to teach in the way that was natural to them. They were allowed to design their own lessons, go off at tangents, and they didn't pile homework on us, or 'course work' either.

Your O levels didn't start from the moment you started the new term of those two years....It just carried on as normal, pretty much, with all of us swotting up a couple of weeks before the exams.

We went swimming for the fun of it, not to gain certificates and go up to the next level and the next and the next...

Teachers were not under HUGE pressure to meet their targets, tick all the boxes, and there were no school tables for anxious parents to pore over, deciding whether they should move house or not...etc...

We spent long hot summer days in the park, watching the cricket whilst chattering to one another, drinking Coca Cola or Pepsi...eating ice-creams and laying back on the warm grass, not to have oral or anal sex, but purely to relax, stare at the sky...whilst still talking to each other....and we were boys and girls in that group...

Friday and Saturday nights we often went to the local disco, but only if it was OK with our parents, who normally ran us there and picked us up...and most people drank soft drinks or beer at the bar. I don't ever, EVER remember seeing girls drunk in there either.

Of course, things started to go downhill as the alochol was pushed harder and life was made to be more stressed out and harsher...Discos closed down...

We grew up with happy music and happy times..and my generation and the one before was extremely lucky, I now feel.

Life was far gentler, because the Old Ways were still in place. Men did not expect 'sex' on the first date, and most girls wouldn't have given it to them either, because 'love' was higher on their agenda...

We didn't dress as tarts, wouldn't have wanted to...but we did dress in feminine styles, even with our jeans and cowboy boots on...

And then, the 80s hit...hard and hating...and life became harsher and harsher and harsher...and long after the Miners Strike was forgotten by many, apart from those who were so deeply torn apart by it, those who used it as an open door to anarchy were still working hard to disrupt and to cause damage...

'Class War' spread it's message of divisive hate. The Extreme Left helped it all along...TV programmes became more and more violent, women became less and less feminine and the Sex Industry replaced love.

The paedeophiles worked hard on the children...from within the toy industry, the music industry and the fashion industry and before long the Alcopops Industry was on our doorstep, and the sweet, pleasant drink was being supped by millions of very young teenagers, as the craving for alcohol seeped into their system, romanticised by the Drinks Industry itself.

In Horrabridge three shops started selling them, changing their entire shop layouts to give as much space as they could to all the new 'fun' drinks that were now becoming fashionable...because they made such a profit....

And no-one cared about the children......

The shopkeepers got rich, the parents got happy kids...and the kids found something that made them feel that actually, life wasn't that bad after all. In fact, as the alcohol grew stronger they found they could just about cope with all the tick boxes they had to tick in their controlled, dictated-to lives.

The trouble was, they needed to drink it 24/7....and then, one day, along came Mr. Politician who told them they could. In fact, he and his cronies said it was a wonderful idea!

So they did as they were told...and their parents smiled, happy that Little Johnny and Little Jemima were also happy, at long last...

Yes, life in Proleland was going exactly as planned........

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

I must say I am now having difficulties following the thread at all. First the government was congratulated for 'waking up at last' and doing something about binge drinking. Then they were criticised for causing binge drinking in the first place making kids go into the 'education system' when they were born. Then 'the system' was criticised for being too strict and structured. Then we were told that discipline was all part of lthe loving attention that children need. Then a very employee of that that system received lavish praise for telling us 'the problem of alcohol abuse has been around for a long time. There is neither a simple cause nor a simple answer'. Yet, we hear that it is simply down to 'the Education 'SYSTEM' which is stealing our children's souls'.

I guess the education system must be crap because I was brought up in it and cannot follow that reasonaing at all. Ah well. At least I am not on my own...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM

Oh - and I think we may be on change of topic 3 or 4, Still waiting for more cries of victimisation:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM

Hey guys and gals, you are ruining a very good thread again.

Its the same ones again.

Get a grip of yourselves. You are behaving like children.

I'll get me toys

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

Since your childhood was so idyllic, how come you turned out to be such an arsehole as an adult?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:46 PM

I hope you didn't direct that at me Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

Lizzie - Why can't we show our children how to be responsible adults? Children grow up - I know as I was one once, as we all were. I fail to see why the majority in this land should pay with their liberty by the faults of the minority, and I'm sure it is a minority. The news programmes only show the selected few stumbling out of pubs and clubs. Why don't they show us the vast majority of people who go out and enjoy themselves, young and old? Maybe it's because it doesn't make good news. I'm sick and tired of the majority in this country paying the price of a tiny minority acting like complete idiots. Ban the idiots, not the populace.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

Just what planet are you from, Lizzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM

Hear hear that man. I spent over 20 years teaching the 16-19 year age group.

They could be trouble but 99.9% were great and I see some of them, with every social disadvantage in the world teaching at that same college having done education the long way round if you like.

I have seen so many people with very little advantage in life do so well it annoys me immensely when people come along and disparage them and the teaching profession. I have seen people in quite important jobs say to teachers "If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be here".

There is a "moral panic" about binge drinking. It happens elsewhere in Europe. Look up "botellon"in Google. I was in southern Spain when the Sevilla/Granada botellon's took place and it was clear the newspapers had exacerbated the problem. They all went barmy for a while and then calmed down once the newspapers had had their say and moved on to other things.

I go to a lot of festivals and I see the dozens of young musicians working so hard at their music and then having a great time with it and each other. In over 40 years of going to folk festivals I can count the bad incidnets on the fingers of one finger. What a shame people don't concentrate on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

hmmm sounds like you did FolkieDave

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Les I wouod no mre direct a post like that at you than.......than.....than..... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM

Lying git :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

The only way I am going to let you off, is if you visit Faldingworth Live. We have the Pub camping area where you can lay your weary pissed out of your brains head (Thats after the concert) at no cost. So no excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:50 PM

Strange then, how this non-existant problem is costing the country and the NHS BILLIONS of pounds...

I mean, that's a whole lotta money for something that isn't happening, huh?

My childhood wasn't 'idyllic', it was very ordinary...very, very ordinary..and I didn't grow up to be an arsehole, for your information, nor an obsessive internet stalker either.


Folk Festivals, Dave.

Why yes.

And if you read my report on the first Sidmouth Folk Week a few years back, which is still on the BBC, you'll see me saying in there about the camaraderie, the sense of family and belonging that was going on inside the Ham Marquee during the main show, whilst outside, the Lost Children were being rounded up by the police, after one had attacked another with a knife, almost cutting his throat....The young girlfriend was in the Ladies Toilet with me, trying to wash out the blood from her tissue, so she could use it again on her 'man'...

And on their hips sat the babies, the next generation of Lost Children....

It's all there, on the BBC board....about 60 pages back now, but I expect you know exactly where to find it..

Sorry John, but in this instance, I know way too many young people who have been touched by alcohol, so I don't believe it's a tiny minority...but I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should, as a nation, have far more GOOD news around, along with uplifting TV and Radio programmes...

Far less Eastenders and Big Brother and far more happy and inspirational programmes...and News, for all.   Great idea..and one that Michael Moore commented on in his Bowling for Columbine film, when he mentioned how the Canadian Government ensures that its population has a good percentage of positive news, thus making people feel far more hopeful and cheerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM

Spot on Mr Barden.

To lump clubs and pubs together as having the same effect, is frankly stupid.

The majority of pubs serve responsible locals who go out for a quiet social evening, and the landlords of those have a degree of respect for law and order which prevents the kind of abuse which is under discussion.

Most pubs actually close fairly early, between 11 and 12pm.

Clubs, and the very large town centre boozers are a very different matter, serving until the early hours without care or thought for the condition of those they turn loose on the local community.

Lizzie commented on the loss of the Discos she used to go to in the sixties. What the hell does she think attracts the youngsters to night clubs in the first place. They are, of course massive Discos, and the sweat worked up in dancing translates to a monumental need for liquid intake, which the cynical owners are only too happy to supply.

Pre-loading on nearly free supermarket booze completes the picture.

Yet this incompetent bunch of lunatics at present running the asylum, decide to ignore the real culprits, and concentrate instead on completing the destruction of the British Local, thereby punishing for binge drinking,the one section of the population which doesn't do it.

Well done all you politicos, who have your own local in Westminster, immune to the regulations applied to ours.

If we, the responsible majority, don't get rid of these prats when we have the chance, we'll have to do all OUR drinking and music making at home.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM

"I didn't grow up to be an arsehole, for your information, nor an obsessive internet stalker either."

Many would disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:37 PM

If children are not educated to be able to compete, then, until we reform the capitalist system they will indeed have something to need to blank out of their minds: the fact that they are useless. Remove capitalism or enable people to make their way in it.

The biggest problem is the admiration of the useless for the useless. Until idols are no longer footballers and plasticised musicians, but in stead people who do something useful or admirable, there is no hope of aspiration guiding people to improve themselves.

But in stead "intellectual" is a term of abuse in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:03 PM

And if you read my report on the first Sidmouth Folk Week a few years back, which is still on the BBC, you'll see me saying in there about the camaraderie, the sense of family and belonging that was going on inside the Ham Marquee during the main show, whilst outside, the Lost Children were being rounded up by the police, after one had attacked another with a knife, almost cutting his throat....The young girlfriend was in the Ladies Toilet with me, trying to wash out the blood from her tissue, so she could use it again on her 'man'...

It shows that things were bad way back in the 1950's then?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM

""But in stead "intellectual" is a term of abuse in England.""

Of course it is, and will be so until we rid ourselves of a government which relies, for its survival, on dumbing down the population so they will be thick enough to vote for it.

Why else do you suppose they are so violently opposed to what they call "Elitism", when what they are describing is the achievement of full potential by the most able.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 02:32 AM

Dave and Lizzie, stop your squabbling and stick to the topic of discussion. If Lizzie wants to use juvenile language, that's her right....I guess. But her choice of language is not the topic of this thread.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 03:57 AM

The media will latch on to anything untowards which is why they report on the bad behavior of the few. The NHS are struggling under the strain of lack of funding and poor management which is why the government is happy to use whatever it can as a scapegoat for their mis-management. I am not saying there is no alcohol abuse problem. There is, always has been, always will be. But the problem is no worse today than it has been and people running round like headless chickens, telling us how bad things are, are playing right into the hands of the cynical political spin doctors and their lapdogs, the press.

Out of interest, and linking to another thread close to the heart of the opening poster... One of ths reasons that Cadbury formed their company was to provide an alternative to alcohol. John Cadbury was so horrified by the gin drinking depravity of the Victorian era he decided to do something about it. Full story here. It seems, in some ways, the binge drinking of today is a return to those old fasioned values so vaunted by some:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM

Save the NHS from Alcohol Abuse - Article from The Guardian - 8th January 2010

You know, Dave, *you* are the one who is sounding like a politician here, because you are refusing to acknowledge the unprecendented situation that is happening here in the UK.

At present, it is cheaper to buy alcohol in some clubs than it is to buy water...and the estimated rise in numbers of people now being admitted each year to the NHS, because of alcohol abuse is 80,000.

Sorry, but never before has this happened....and it was NOT like this when we were young. To state otherwise is a downright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:01 AM

"Elitism" lies not in enabling the able, but in devaluing those other than the elite. Subsidising the opera while doing nothing to aid (and indeed much to attack) folk music is elitist.

Aspiration is admirable (so long as the aspirer uses legitimate means) yet, for example, the underclass and their young denigrate those who speak or aspire to speak better - for example the morons who scoff at Joanna Lumley's achievements by calling her Joanna "Plumley" - simple abuse for her better speech habits.

Binge drinking relies upon those indulging (and their peers) seeing nothing wrong in two things - first the drunkenness (and lets face it we see plenty of that in folk and folk-alike music - but usually without offensive behaviour) and second the offensive behaviour.   This is part of the rejection or ignorance of standards (another example, the inability or disinclination of even the BBC to use correct English) that mars Britain.

So there is a combination of three forces for drunkenness - first the history of civilisation reveals the pleasures and addictiveness of alcohol, second the creation of an underclass of society's discards creates the need (like de Quincey) for oblivion, and third afordability.

Then there is the absence of forces against it - the acceptance both of both drunkenness and of boorish behaviour.

Letting children play truant or run riot against their teachers is in no way a proposal likely to reduce drunkenness.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM

AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before.

And as I patiently explained whilst the drinking was not like this when I was young there were all sorts of other things that were not like this either.

As I patiently explained this is a phenomenon in other parts of Europe too. I remember being in Portugal in 1994 or thereabouts and they were complaining about it there and at that time.

There has been a huge increase in booze sold through supermarkets. But it is virtually impossible to purchase booze in a supermarket if you look and/or are under 21. Indeed a friend who was buying a bottle for herself was accompanied by her son and they refused to sell her the alcohol on the grounds it might be for him. He is 22 but had no ID. They would not take her word for it.

Most of the people who binge drink are not young children or even teenagers - they are over 18 and mostly over 21.

There never was a golden age to go back to. Except in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:39 AM

"AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before."


Really?

You mean we've had Happy Hours before,' 'Drink as Much as You Can for as little as possible Hours', 300 clubs and pubs within ONE square mile, 30 in a 600 yard stretch in Barnsley, women so drunk, en masse, that they can be raped and not even remember it, children have their own lemonadyalcohol, exams throughout our lives, control, dictate, control, celebrity this and that, dumbing down, doctors and nurses being physically abused by drunks, security guards in hospitals to deal with this problem....etc..etc..etc.......?

Well, silly me, I just never realised.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:45 AM

Sorry, Liz, but it is NOT unprecedented. Just think about it - everytime the amount of alcohol abuse increases it is 'the worst ever' so it constantly happens and as the population increase it will continue to do so. The government and NHS management are simply providing the smoke and mirrors to mask the mis-management of funds.

That aside the article you refer us to makes no mention of whether this has happened before or not. Show us hard evidence that alcohol abuse is worse now than during the days of the Victorian Gin Palace and you may gain some credibility.

And alcohol has been cheaper than water since the introduction of designer waters. Not just in clubs but in ordinary pubs. In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know. Apart from it is change of tactic number 5 or 6...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Oh - sorry - going right back to the begining, and the thread title, do you think the proposed reforms are a good thing or not?

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Richard, from my Myspace page...

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!" - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams

"...OUR MEDIA AND THE PEOPLE IN POWER HAVE MANIPULATED OUR ADULT POPULATION TO STOP THINKING. THEY MANIPULATE THEM TO BE A CONSUMERIST SOCIETY. 'BE INTERESTED IN A MERCEDES! BE INTERESTED IN SPORTS! BE INTERESTED IN BRITNEY SPEARS! WE WILL TAKE CARE OF THE BUSINESS!' AND THEY LEARN FROM HITLER'S FRIEND HERMANN GOERING THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE THE POPULATION FRIGHTENED YOU CAN GET THEM TO AGREE TO ALMOST ANYTHING..." - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams


....even drinking themselves senseless....

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:01 AM

"In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know."

It has to do with greed, or perhaps 'survival', as so many pubs now suffer from the 'drink-driving' laws. People don't drink alcohol in pubs as they once used to, so all soft drinks, including water, have rocketed in price.   

Do I agree with the reforms?

I agree that *something* has to be done, and that has to be something DRASTIC.

I think hitting pubs is wrong, although I do agree that all landlords should be responsible and if anyone is driving, then they should ask for their keys before giving them alcohol.

The clubs are the main enemy though. They have destroyed our city centres and the lives of so many young people. They are run by leeches who couldn't give a damn about the people who fall over senseless outside their premises, neither do they care about the impact and cost of it all on the rest of us.

I think that if you deliberately choose to drink yourself senseless every night, and end up getting hurt because of that, then you should pay for any medical treatment incurred, together with police time and ambulances being called out.

I think we should go back to Off Licences and take the booze out of the supermarkets.

I think the Government should stop thinking of the revenue they'll lose if they bring in drastic measures to curb alcohol excess and start thinking about their bloody country and her people instead!

I have no time for people who drink and drive....and there should be an absolute 100% ban on ANY alcohol being in your body in you are driving. That goes for mind-bending drugs too...and they've not even touched that part....

I also think they need to start a massive campaign to change the whole drinking culture in this country, not with the daft adverts they've got at present, which actually send shivers down me, but with teaching children self-respect, teaching them to respect others, teaching them about greedy corporate bastards who want nothing but their money and couldn't give a toss how their lives end up.

And I think they need to do the biggest survey ever as to why people are drinking themselves senseless like this in the first place...then act upon it by making people's lives far less stressful.
They need to stop testing children. They need to remove the pressure on schools to 'achieve'. They need to get rid of ALL 'tick boxes' and 'targets'...they need to make Univeristy free again. They need to make housing cheaper somehow. They need to get rid of VAT completely, because we're all taxed to the hilt as it is. They need to start being bloody honest, with themselves, and with us.

In short, they need to Reform Themselves, and then Reform this country...and like a potter, they need to take what is now a lump of clay without roots, without culture, without history, and turn it into the most shining, sparkling statue that will illuminate its' beauty around the world.

I LOVE this country.
I LOVE her people...
I HATE what we have allowed to happen to it.


My dear friends, Gloria and Charlie, lost their only child, Peter, their 22 year old son, to a drunk driver, and it destroyed their lives. No-one has the right to do that to any other person, purely through alcohol...and any government that refuses to acknowledge what is happening purely because they don't want to lose the revenue, should hang its' head in absolute shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

And...they need to reform Motherhood, making it the most important job in the world, because....it is! If you have the state rearing the next generation, then you are in big shite.

We do.
We are.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:33 AM

The repeated warnings from health professionals, the statistics on alcohol-related ill health and hospital treatment, and the calculations of cost to the NHS tell a very different story........As shocking, though less documented, is the two-thirds increase in cases involving pensioners.

So there is a huge increase in pensioners drinking too much.

Aren't these the ones who had the enjoyment of the life that you want to get back to Lizzie?

And you missed out apple pie. We need apple pie as well as motherhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:41 AM

People don't drink alcohol in pubs as they once used to, so all soft drinks, including water, have rocketed in price.

False logic yet again. Soft drinks have ALWAYS been expensive in pubs. Well, around us anyway. In 1969 when I shouldn't have really been drinking anyway a pint of bitter was 1/10 - They charged more if you had a pint of shandy because the lemonade was dearer than the beer. Shortly after, when I started to take girls in pubs, I used to dislike buying a larger and lime - because they charged for a shot of lime! And once they introduced the draught soda machines (1980's?) they knew they could charge whatever they wanted - and did! Pubs and breweries have always known that soft drinks are, if you will excuse the pun, a soft touch.

One thing I will wholeheartedly agree with is the fact that clubs are an issue - Not even necessarily the tradition image of a club. A lot of city centre pubs have become the same. They should take some responsibility for assisting people into the states they get in. Extra legislation is not the answer though, There are already laws governing the situation that are not enforced. Did you know, by the way, that drunkenness is still an arrestable offence under the 1872 licensing act? When did you last hear of it being used? And the 1964 act establishes the responsibility and authority of your local pub landlord. By law, the licensee is not permitted to serve a drunken customer, or permit them on the premises.

How will extra legislation help? Once again, political smoke and mirrors. Scapegoats for bad management and media hype. Sorry, Lizzie - they have fooled you yet again.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM

Lizzie, much of what you write implies that the majority of people in this country are stupid, unthinking and incapable of making up their own minds. In fact, that anyone who disagrees with you must be an idiot or a dupe who is constantly and unthinkingly manipulated by politicians, teachers, the media or some other sinister force who is in control of our lives. This is not only obviously untrue, it is grossly insulting, demeaning and belittling to the vast majority of people in this country who are perfectly capable of ordering and controlling their lives and adapting to circumstances as they arise.

In your philosophy, the idea of personal freedom (except for you and those who agree with you) doesn't exist. This is the philosophy of totalitarianism.

Most people do not walk around in a state of despair and disillusionment – they get on with their lives and live them, as far as possible, how THEY WANT TO, usually within the law. The reality is that people get pissed because THEY WANT TO. Most parents support the education system because it's what THEY WANT. Children go to out-of-school clubs because THEY WANT TO. People vote into power the politicians THEY WANT TO. People read the newspapers THEY WANT TO. People accept the opinions THEY WANT TO and reject those they don't. Disagree, by all means, but don't imply that you are the only one who has made a conscious and informed decision about what is right and don't imply that your beliefs should be imposed on everyone 'for their own good'.

Many years ago, David Ogilvy, a very successful advertising man, told his staff, "The consumer is not an idiot – she's your wife." Give people some credit - we are not the mindless morons you portray us as and most of us simply don't want to live in Lizzieworld.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Ah, yes - the 'Old Ways'. I can only conjecture why Lizzie Cornish 1 did not qualify 'Old Ways' with 'good'.

When I was at secondary school - 1956 - 1961 - there was no chance of being eddimacated. The "teachers" were too busy battering ten bells of shite out of us with cane, pressure tubing, size 14 gym slipper and the tawse.

I had my first dose of the tawse at six years old.

Is the foregoing one of the 'Old Ways' Lizzie would like to see the return of ?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Something else just struck me when I saw the list of threads. The Watneys Party 7 was a product of our youth. It had one sole purpose as far as anyone who was 16 and going to a party in 1969 will tell you. To get you pissed without the hastle of having to open seven separate pint cans. I could never manage the full 7 but there were plenty who did. One of which could even drink. one handed, directly from said receptacle! They have no such equivalent today I am glad to say:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

Well I just drove past a pub in my own town at 3:30pm today and saw this bloke of at least 50+, stagger out of the pub and then have great difficulty keeping within the boundaries of the wall and the kerb. He was rat arsed. What an example to set young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST,Jane Mellor
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

I am 19 years of age. I think Lizzie watches too much television. A lot of people who get drunk in towns are over 30. It is really hard to get served in supermarkets and even with ID some pubs won't serve you.

She doesn't know what she is talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 01:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM
"For a woman to consider a job or career more important than having children is, quite literally, unnatural."
"Instead of complaining that nature prevents women from having successful careers women should embrace the career nature has ascribed to them - motherhood."
London BNP organiser Nick Eriksen
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So far as I understand the point of above post, GUEST seems to think that, because something was said by someone with whose overall weltanschauung we nearly all disagree, it can't be right. This is a naive view. Even members of the BNP may occasionally be right about matters neutral to their main platforms. Or, in this instance, the fact that Lizzie might hold the same opinion on one particular issue as a BNP spokesperson doesn't, ipso facto, make her wrong about everything — nor even about that one particular view. — This is not one I happen to agree with, but it strikes me as perfectly tenable, and not to be dismissed out of hand just because someone in the BNP happens to agree with it. You will have to find a better argument than that if you intend to shoot it down, Guest.

(Slight drift - but perhaps valid as an example of what I mean — even Hitler once said something which I regard as the most perfect summation of a view with which I strongly concur, when he said that "Cigarettes are the red man's revenge on the white man for gin." The fact that I would probably not agree with a single other opinion he ever expressed doesn't invalidate my agreement with [& incidental admiration for the brilliant expression of] that particular one.)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

Thank you, M....

I despair of folks who now think that wanting Motherhood to be given back its significance, is akin to being in the BNP.

YEESH....

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

Lizzie - Fatherhood is just as important in a family scenario. My daughters of 31 and 30 and my wife of 32 years may agree or disagree of course, but I believe that fathers are just as important in their own way, and there are far too many fathers letting there children down. Far too many mothers too for that matter. Due to cheap booze - that's such an easy a target to blame. Poverty in our society is rife, and that is often the start of many a breakdown of family values.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 07:09 PM

M the GM - surely it was whisky.

John - compare my family.   Doing OK. I was at work so clearly I was not necessary (save biologically).

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM

Mike, there is a big difference between a basic philosophy of Kinder Kuche Kirche as it was once known and a simple aphorism (whether whisky or gin).

Here's Lizzie on women earlier this year:

Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

Women should be free to be who they want to be..

And note Lizzie - not a personal attack - simply noting what you wrote and how it contradicts what you currently write!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 10:23 PM

Mike, there is a big difference between a basic philosophy of Kinder Kuche Kirche as it was once known and a simple aphorism (whether whisky or gin).===

I know, Dave. My point was that one can agree with the aphorism [whichever - 'To me way-hey-hey & we'll all all drink whisky AND gin'] without buying into the whole gestalt. All you are doing is repeating the point I make in simpler words for the thickos out there who couldn't geddit without having you interpret for them. Just a leetle patronising of you mebbe?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:10 AM

>>>>>Here's Lizzie on women earlier this year:

Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

Women should be free to be who they want to be..

And note Lizzie - not a personal attack - simply noting what you wrote and how it contradicts what you currently write!<<<<<


Where have I stated in this thread that women do not have the right to be what they want to be????? I have stated that Motherhood should be regarded as far more important than it is these days, as once it used to be...And I have stated that if you choose to have children then you have a duty and responsibility to those children, and that they should come first.

If a woman chooses to be a mother, first and foremost, and wants to remain a stay at home Mum, then that is her freedom, Dave. She should be given absolute support and respect for that fact, not sniffed at for 'not having a job'...because she has one and it's the most important jobs in the world, because you are raising the next generation of humans.

On many forms you are either considered to be a Career Woman or nowt. It's crap. So many times I've heard "Oh, I'm sorry, I don't have a 'box' for 'Mother'. I need to know what job you do."

If the women of the Middle East want to be company executives, ice-cream sales folks or anything else, then good for them. If they want to be Mothers, then good for them also. It's their choice, or it SHOULD be.

But for most women to have a full time job and children, creates problems of time, love and tolerance...Many women now are saying they realise that the dream of 'You Can Have It All' is exactly that, a dream, because somewhere, something has to give under all that pressure and so often, it's the children.

Yes, there ARE Dad's who stay at home and raise their children whilst their partners work, and I'm sure many of them do a bloody wonderful job, but they are still in the minority, and like it or not, Mother Nature, for whatever reason, designed the female of the species to have the children, and in nearly all species that's so, along with the females raising the children...unless you're a Seahorse or a few others, before everyone points this out.

Children, imo, should come first, not 'Careers'...


I still remember a woman in the bed next to me, when my daughter was born...staring at her new baby, saying anxiously, that she was really worried that her social life was going to be comprimised by 'this'...and how she loved sports, going out, her career...etc..and I felt so bloody sorry for that child. Basically, it had just hit her...

John, I've very often stood up for men in here, and I feel that they've been pushed to the sidelines terribly by the feminists, as have women who want to be full time mothers.

My Dad gave me a very different kind of love to my mum....so I know only too well how important men are..but I'm merely saying that children are bloody important too and putting them into the care of the State, as we are being brainwashed to do more and more these days, is sooooooooooooo damn wrong.

We have created many parents who don't know how to be parents and the effects of that can be seen out on our streets, as so many unhappy young people seek to find the meaning of life from the bottom of a lager can..

(And for the record, I regard people in the 20s and 30s as 'young' people...because I am 346 years old these days, so this is not *just* aimed at teenagers, but there IS a huge teenage drinking problem in this country, as well as in the other age groups)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:40 AM

"Children, imo, should come first, not 'Careers'..."


What I believe should come first is the freedom of women (and men) the have a personal choice in how they run their lives. Working parents do not have a detrimental effect on the lives of their children so long as their needs are also catered for and the work/home balance is adjusted accordingly. Most employers recognise this these days and offer the flexibility in working hours that allow it. My wife and I both work and our two children are happy, well-adjusted kids who are doing well at school/uni and have lively and busy social lives and a wide range of interests. Far better to have parents who are happy and fulfilled and enjoying their careers as well as their home lives than to have fretting, bored, resentful parents whose only role is to pander to their children's whims. Parents are people, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:04 AM

I admit I was wrong and apologise to Lizzie.

My prediction, some time back...
We are now at change of topic number 1 and just one cry of victimisation. I predict at least two of the former, half a dozen of the latter and at least one threat to leave altogther before the thread reaches it's inevitable closure:-)

There have been far more than three changes of topic, or tactic at least. Just off the top of my head -
Binge Drinking
The Education System
Working Mothers
Government control
Rally cry to rebel against 'them'
Comparison to Russia
(I find the last two interesting - We are to rebel against the state and yet the country that did that is castigated. Ah well...)
I am sure there are more but I gave up.

BUT - and here is the thing I apologise for - There has been only one allusion to being victimised or stalked and no call at all for the thread to be closed! My hat is off to you Lizzie. Now, if we can just work on those tangents...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM

Agreed, Leveller. My daughter is thriving and happy. She would not have many of the advantages and opportunities she has if I did not do the job I do - she has been to events and festivals where I was working, and taken friends along - she loves it. She has a standard of living that is possible because I work. For example, we went to Venice last year, just the two of us. It was an incredibly bonding experience and one both of us will treasure in the years to come.

I have raised a happy child who is thriving at school, who is not off her face on drink and drugs or shagging round the town. Do not undermine my choices because they are not the same ones you have made, Lizzie. I think stay-at-home mums are perfectly entitled to their choice, and I think I am equally entitled to mine. And having a bit more money around the place isn't just about being able to buy your kids possessions; it's about giving them experiences. If kids want to do out-of school activities and clubs, it's nice as a parent to be able to facilitate that. My daughter has the opportunity to do an exchange to Japan this year with her school - I will pay part of the cost, her dad will pay part, and she has to earn the rest herself. But if I was not working I couldn't afford to even think about giving her this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go and stay with a Japanese family and see the country from the inside. I firmly believe that travel broadens the mind, and that you get a much more balanced perspective on your own culture by going and experiencing others, so this is a priceless life experience, in my opinion, and I'm glad I can give it to her.

Some of my daughter's friends have mums who have stayed home, and some have gone out to work. Can I categorically say that the ones with full-time mothers are markedly more stable and happier? Absolutely not. One of them, in fact, is round here constantly because she and her mum don't get on. In her case, her mum re-married and has two small boys, who take up a lot of her time. Their dad has also insisted that his children are privately educated, so the boys are at the local prep while the two older girls, from the first marriage, are at a state school (they can't afford for all of them to go private). Their mum is a full-time parent, but not all her children are getting the same level of parenting. So it isn't down to "working mums bad, stay-at-home mums good" - it's about individual situations, some of which work and some don't.

So, happily, for those of us in the real world (and not the one that exists inside Lizzie's head) it's not such a nightmare dystopia: it's not perfect, but for the most part our kids are okay and we're reasonably happy. As someone who stayed at home for a few years, and has variously worked part-time, full-time, in an office and at home, there is only one thing I've learned: there is no perfect solution. All you are ever doing is trading one set of compromises for another, and you have to try and choose the permutation that works best for you as a family.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:36 AM

David, it's called....'conversation'.

Now this is a strange one, of course, because tell me this, why is it OK for you to go completely off tangent in a thread, but never for me?

And my posts are all connected up.

Please, don't be a hypocrite, there's a good lad.

Leveller...If you decide to have children and a career, that's fine, but, imo, the children are by far and a way the more important of the two. I have a right to feel that way, just as other women don't. It's my freedom of choice too ya'know...

What bugs me, and upsets me, is children who don't get their parents time, and this is sometimes not the parents fault because there is no option but for both parents to work, in order to pay the bills, these days more than ever before.   

But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?

It's just my opinion...and I did put that bit in, that women who CHOOSE to have a full time career, even when they don't need the money, and who have children as well, are depriving their children of something very special, that's all, particularly in the early years before school starts.....and I'm talking about mothers who love their children in the 'special' bit there, not ones who treat them as if they're dirt, hit them, abuse them etc.


And David, again...tell me this, if you're having a conversation in a pub, or wherever, do you stipulate, before you start, that NO-ONE is allowed to take your conversation off-topic? No, of course you don't...it's where conversations lead, down many paths...

Threads are no different, they merely become woven into a tapestry of thoughts.

It doesn't bother me one bit.

If it bothers you, then please don't read the thread, it truly is that easy.

There are a helluva lot of kids out there who don't have the love from their parents that they should, so they seek it out in 'gangs' and get led down many wrong paths....It happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

I have no problem at all with conversation wandering anywhere it wants, either in or out of the pub, but anyone who wants a sensible debate should stick within reasonable bounds. If you want a conversation, feel free to wander but don't then complain at the bullshit that gets spouted by everyone.

As to -

Threads are no different, they merely become woven into a tapestry of thoughts.

It doesn't bother me one bit.

If it bothers you, then please don't read the thread, it truly is that easy.

Well, saying your threads are a tapestry of thoughts is certainly one way of putting it...

It doesn't bother me in the slightest but where there is incorrect statements, flawed logic and total rubbish I cannot help but point it out. You have asked, often enough, for consideration of how your brain works. Well that is how mine works - I see bollocks, I say bollocks. Surely that doesn't bother you does it? If so, I suppose you need not read my posts. It truly is that easy.

Oh, and I don't recall ever changing the subject to try and steer people away from the crap I have spouted earlier. Not that you would do such a thing of course...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:02 AM

A question for Lizzie: is the 'Patch Adams' that you have quoted, attacking the 'fame industry', the same one who let his life story be made into a Hollywood film starring Robin Williams ?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:02 AM

Oh - one final thing

Please, don't be a hypocrite, there's a good lad.

Tell you what, Liz my dear girl, you treat everyone else with the respect you seem to expect and I will see what I can do:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:07 AM

"But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?"

People don't work 24 hour a day, 7 days a week. By 5 children are at school for most of the day and flexible working hours mean one or other parent is on hand when the kids come home. All my kids have gone to nursery from an early age and they have all loved it - making friends who they have kept throughout school and beyond. A big advantage is that when they do start school they are with children they have grown up with and feel very secure so it isn't a trauma. Many teachers will tell you that these children often do better, especially in the early years, as they have greater independence and social skills, are better at sharing and work much better in groups than those who have spent all their time at home. I can vouch for all of that.

The other benefit is that time then spent with parents is real 'quality' time and the kids experience a greater variety of activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 12:54 PM

But tell me, if both parents are out working, full time, and there is no grandparent around, who brings up the children?

And if there is only one parent around for whatever reason, and there is no grandparent around, who earns the money?

Or is the state (the nanny state you constantly denigrate) supposed to provide the money for food, rent, clothing whilst the lone parent stays at home looking after the children?

Parents do split up, people fall in love with other people, families break up etc. What happens then?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:06 PM

"A question for Lizzie: is the 'Patch Adams' that you have quoted, attacking the 'fame industry', the same one who let his life story be made into a Hollywood film starring Robin Williams ? "

Yes, that's the man. I believe the money went to help the building of Patch's hospital...which he has given his life to raising funds for.

Patch Adams is NOT a superstar. He does not seek publicity.

How do I know?

Because I spoke to those in his office a while back now, about making a Myspace page, in his name. I wanted to try to get Patch's message out as far as I could...and, having noticed there was no page for either Patch or his Geshundheit Institute I thought I'd see if I could help.

They told me they hadn't seen him for ages, because he just 'takes off' and does his own thing. They too were desperate for him to promote himself more on the internet, but Patch doesn't like computers, won't ever deal with them and doesn't carry a phone either.

In short, when Patch is out, he's OUT..and that's that.

What is he out doing?

He's out visiting patients, making the laugh, caring for them. He's out spreading his message, about changing the way we think of medicine and caring for the sick and dying. He's out trying to recruit more and more doctors to think as he does, and this isn't difficult for him to do.   He travels around the world doing this, on his own, with no camera crew, no TV crew, occasionally phoning into his office to see how things are going.

Read his book, Smedley.

And please, don't criticise Patch Adams, because he's a wonderful man!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

And somewhere in here is a thread I started about Patch, but I don't know how to find it...GRRRR....lot of info in there though..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 01:53 PM

Spot on, leveller. Even if flexible working isn't available and a *gasp* childminder is used, you're usually talking about a 1 - 2 hour window in between a child getting home and a parent doing the same. Not exactly running feral, are they?

But Lizzie, your quickness to make value and moral judgements about the way that many of us raise our children does raise certain questions in itself. After all, you've made a choice to keep your children out of school (I won't say "home educate" them, because to me that implies giving lessons, monitoring progress and having some kind of teaching structure, none of which you agree with), so you are presumably at home with your kids all day and are responsible for supervising and spending time with them 24/7. But between your numerous fan pages, your huge Myspace, and all the thousands of words you have written about bands, not to mention the many, many lengthy diatribes and skirmishes on various websites, you must have spent absolutely thousands of hours on line in recent years.

So instead of worrying about who is raising our kids, I'm just wondering, Lizzie: who's raising yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 03:14 PM

What the binge drinkers need is a little self discipline. They get that by learning that if they step outside bounds it is unacceptable - and has adverse consequences. Consistently.

Women are human beings too and entitled to make their own choices. They are not rentawombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:58 AM

In making this post I am probably leaving meself wide open for a pasting ; but

In the days when I could take alcohol (many moons ago, now, the gods be praised) I never seat out to get deliberately pissed, nor did anyone I was at Folk Club with. Oh, it happened - with bells on.

Which is why I am at a loss to understand the young'uns of today.

Pissed at 10 p.m

Legless by 11p.m.

Fighting at midnight.

Carried home on a door at 1 a.m. via A & E, having set out to get deliberately pissed.

When I was serving my apprenticeship to a pisshead, if I or any youngster went out of order, we were liable not only to get barred out, but also to get battered by older men who were put out by such conduct.

I still do go to a pub, for live music and/or a meal, but what I would consider conduct out of order is no longer the subject of sanctions (consequences, as Richard said - nice to see you are back), but seems to be

positively encouraged.

I think I have become my parents :-).

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

So we are now on Patch Adams? how did that happen?

I gather we are not allowed to criticise anyone that Lizzie considers to be wonderful? Can I make that same request please? I think Folkiedave is wonderful (he bought me a pint once) so please do not criticise him. Thank you.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:13 AM

"I think Folkiedave is wonderful (he bought me a pint once) so please do not criticise him. Thank you."

No surprises there, then.



And if you want to see why Patch Adams was mentioned, I suggest you read the thread and follow the conversation properly, rather than nipping in and out of it simply to 'Lizziebash'.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:55 AM

I suggest you read the thread and follow the conversation properly

Following one of your conversations is beyond me I'm afraid, Liz. I would rather stick pins in my eyes. Probably as a result of being a product of the education system...

Thank you.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:58 AM

Glad to see I am back on track with my victimisation prediction though:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 09:57 AM

And naturally as a Yorkshire person I would buy Dave a beer. We started off on a binge drinking session but after he bought me one we stopped.

Such generosity between folk normally separated by the Pennines is not seen as normal. United by a common foe.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 10:48 AM

""Elitism" lies not in enabling the able, but in devaluing those other than the elite. Subsidising the opera while doing nothing to aid (and indeed much to attack) folk music is elitist.""

No need to lecture me on the definition of elitism, which is of course, exactly as you state.

It is New Labour which needs educating, since the use the false spectre of "elitism" (their meaning of the word) to stifle the able and keep the young as uniformly dumb as is necessary to prevent their seeing the shortcomings of the party in government.

At the age of eleven, I was way ahead of my younger brother, who was not academically inclined, so I won a scholarship to a top school and he went to that old fashioned second choice, a Secondary modern. We both achieved the best we could and finished highly placed at "O" and "A" level GCE.

He is a very talented artist and teacher, who achieved a masters in fine arts working from home.

I, being low on ambition, eventually qualified as a Carpenter and Joiner.

My point is that he would have floundered at grammar school, and I did not, but neither of our careers were defined or confined by that difference.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:03 AM

BTW Lizzie, just for information, and without any implied criticism, the man you were quoting re giving the populace someone to fear, was not that amiable buffoon Hermann Goering.

It was the rather less personable, but cunning and manipulative Josef Goebbels.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 11:04 AM

Don, I'm sure that's the experience of many people. I have a friend who, having failed her 11-plus, went to a Sec Mod where she came across inspirational teachers. She is now a Judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM

I must step forward and defend Nottingham, the well known terror city where you WILL get your hair parted by a dum dum bullet twice a week (according to the redtops and certain TV programmes).

The city has always had its rough bits - for a pretty accurate flavour of the 1950s, read "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning" or watch the film. In the 60s I went to a very well regarded school which was unfortunately situated in one of the city's red light districts, and ladies touted for business at all hours. Then and later it was pretty easy to obtain purple hearts, black bombers, dexies, wacky baccy etc in very respectable cafes (remember the Kardomah anybody?) If you go back further to the early years of the 19th century you will find that there were 156 inns and beer houses in a very small area. "Nottingham Lambs" were then known as groups of chaps you didn't cross on a Saturday night!

Reference the current binge drinking issue, I don't actually believe the current "300 pubs in a square mile" canard, but certainly there are some truly horrible drinking factories now. But who closed down the 4 traditional Nottingham breweries which owned their pub estate and didn't hound managers to maximise drink sales? Big Business helped by politicians. Who aims their marketing they do, whatever they say) and powerful sickly sweet alcopops at kids who can't take their drink? Big Business again. Who owns half of Burton on Trent? Coors, a multi national. Who separated pubs from brewers and encouraged the advent of pile-em-in alcopop bars? Politicians. Who   
can get these places closed down? Police and the justices. Who don't? Police and the justices.

Nottingham's no different from anywhere else really - these days it's all about making a fast buck and keeping the shareholders happy. But there are plenty of places even in 2010 where you can enjoy a pleasant pint and, whisper it, go to a good gig - without danger to your life or sanity. Try the Maze, the Vic, Rock City (well maybe not!) and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

""Don, I'm sure that's the experience of many people. I have a friend who, having failed her 11-plus, went to a Sec Mod where she came across inspirational teachers. She is now a Judge.""

That's my point. This government regards that kind of education system as elitist, but the results do show that, with proper teachers the fact that they are not constantly chasing high fliers actually helps the Secondary Modern pupils to achieve their potential, rather than being left to quietly sink out of sight.

The biggest problem with education today is not elitism, nor discipline, nor absenteeism, nor ineffectual teaching.

It is GOVERNMENT!

Head teachers have been turned into bursars, and administrators, with no time to spare for managing educators. Teachers have been turned into bureaucratic slaves, and buried under an avalanche of government paperwork.

If they would only butt out and let educators educate as they once did, then Britain would again be able to supply the rest of the world with the finest scientists, engineers, inventors, and educators, just as we did in the fifties and sixties.

Remember the "Brain Drain"?.....All those guys were educated in the Grammar/Secondary Modern system, and many of the best of them came from the Secondary Modern part of the system.

Don T.