BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/UK/Amnesty-says-Israeli-flotilla-probe-lacks-transparency/articleshow/6052258.cms

LONDON: Amnesty International criticised on Tuesday Israel's planned internal probe of the deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, saying it would lack transparency and was unlikely to ensure accountability.

The Israeli committee, which will include two foreign observers, was formed to conduct an investigation into the legal aspects of the May 31 operation in which commandos killed nine Turkish activists and wounded many more.

"The format of this government-appointed commission represents a disappointment and a missed opportunity," Malcolm Smart, Amnesty's director for the Middle East and North Africa, said in a statement.

"The commission looks to be neither independent nor sufficiently transparent, the two international observers may be denied access to crucial information and the commission's findings may not be used in future prosecutions," Smart said.

The panel will be headed by retired supreme court judge Yaakov Tirkel, and will include Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble from Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian armed forces.

But it was not clear what powers Trimble and Watkin would have. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said they would not able "to vote in relation to the proceedings and conclusions of the commission."

The two could also be denied access to information if it was "almost certain to cause substantial harm to national security or to the state's foreign relations."

"The processes of the commission must be open, transparent and allow access to all information sources," said Smart. "It should not allow the political considerations of the Israeli government to determine which of its findings are made public."

Israel is facing mounting pressure to end the blockade on Gaza, imposed in 2006 after Gaza militants seized an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid.

Commenting on that, Smart said the "creation of this commission must not distract attention from Israel's continuing blockade of Gaza, which Israel must lift immediately. The Israeli authorities' closure of Gaza constitutes collective punishment and is in clear violation of the Israel's legal obligations as the occupying power."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM

More on the Jewish flotillas

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/transatlantic-jewish-coalition-set-to-break-the-siege-of-gaza.html


"Within days after the attack on the Mavi Marmara, European activists announced a Jewish Boat to sail in July from an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean, attempting to break the siege imposed by Israel in 2006. The boat is sponsored by a coalition of international Jewish organizations dedicated to peace with justice in Israel/Palestine, including the ''Jüdische Stimme'' ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East), along with European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East (EJJP) and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK). American Jews for a Just Peace (AJJP) will serve as the U.S. Coordinator, creating a transatlantic partnership. The small boat's cargo will include school books, medicines and medical equipment.

Why a Jewish boat? Lots of reasons. The universal values contained in the ethical tradition of Judaism don't include 'Do unto others as was done unto us.' For Jews to publicly confront the Israeli government's policies of occupation, apartheid, and siege on a world stage highlights the political nature of the conflict and discredits those who insist on framing it strictly in ethnic and/or religious terms. I like best the answer from Glyn Secker, the Jewish Boat's captain, a British Jew, and longtime activist with Jews for Justice for Palestinians in the UK: "As Jews we should stand as a beacon for human rights, not as an internationally known perpetrator of atrocities."

These may be reasons enough for us to pour our hearts and souls, as well as the contents of our pockets, into supporting this effort. And imagine telling our grandchildren that in response to Israel's stranglehold on 1.5 million Palestinian people in Gaza, and in solidarity with the international movement, we sent a boat of Jewish activists to break the blockade. For additional information and to make a contribution, go to: www.ajjp.org/jewishboat."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."

They're just there for show. They aren't being given any authority to actually do anything.

Thankfully, the UN is going to conduct its own investigation as it did for the Gaza massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.

I keep seeing reports from people who participated in the flotilla saying that there are still missing people. The nurses who were on board and who were tending the wounded said they saw more than 9 dead bodies. Many of the aid groups are saying that there are 6 people missing. I have not seen any reports in the last couple of days, but if the people they said were missing had been accounted for, I would expect them to make an announcement. They are very good about keeping us informed about what's going on. But I'll ask around and see if anyone knows if everyone has been accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people. That's its job. Paintball pellets don't hold very much paint.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:11 PM

I don't know all of the details, but it looks like there are now at least three different Jewish human rights organizations that will be participating in a future flotilla, and at least two boats carrying their members. Needless to say, this will continue and it will keep getting bigger and bigger until the blockade is ended...


http://www.ajjp.org/jewishboat

"The movement to break the blockade of Gaza is "unstoppable and unsinkable" said Naomi Klein, member of the Advisory Board of the Free Gaza Movement, in a powerful statement at a demonstration in Toronto on May 31.

Building on the momentum and global outrage over the Israeli attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, an international coalition of Jewish organizations working for justice in Palestine will sponsor a Jewish Boat to Gaza this summer, with AJJP as its U.S. coordinator.

AJJP joins the "Jüdische Stimme" ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK) in sending the boat as a call to the leaders of the world to help Israel find her way to reason, to a sense of humanity and a life without fear.

The participants on the boat will be chosen by its European organizers. In coordination with the medical, educational and mental health services in Gaza, the boat will take school bags and books, donated by German schoolchildren; musical instruments and art materials to support the Gaza Community Mental Health Program; nets and tackle for fishermen; and essential medicines and small medical equipment for the civilian population under siege. Absolutely no weapons will be on board, and all participants will be trained in the principles of non-violence."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM

I've been without internet for most of the day. I don't know how long it's going to take me to read all of the posts since I was online last night and answer any questions or comments directed at me (I never got caught up earlier today with the ones posted since then).

I will say this, though, Keith. It's not me who needs to open their mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:05 PM

It's not that I'm not making any sense, beardedbruce, it's that you're not using your brain.

Israel and the complicit corporate media in the US (and several hasbara people right here in this thread) keep saying that the reason for the blockade is to keep weapons out of Gaza. All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade. We can prove now that at least one ship, the Rachel Corrie, did make that offer, and we have proof that Israel turned it down (because they didn't allow the Rachel Corrie to proceed to Gaza). So their claim that the blockade is to keep weapons out has been proven to be a lie.

Now don't you just feel foolish for accusing me of not making any sense? (If you don't, you should.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)

The part where the camera team say it's paint was not edited out of any of the different versions I saw, by the way. You guys are just saying it was to make the people who put the video out look bad. It's in all of the different versions.

But that still doesn't make them right. They had already seen paint from paint balls that had been fired at the ship. They were not in an area where anyone had already been shot. They are unaware that the Israelis are using live ammunition. Everyone's first inclination on the ship (according to their testimony) was to not believe that the Israelis were using live ammunition. Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint.   It's an honest mistake for them to make. But the problem is that paint fired from paint guns doesn't behave in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''

He wondered if the boats had been a decoy to draw passengers to the rails while helicopters were used to land Israeli commandos higher in the ship

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

OK Lox.
I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like.
I do not understand the motive of the Israelis, and it holds no evidence relevant to our discussion.

Your comments about the "blood" are ridiculous.
It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition.
Then he speaks in nowegian, then we get the laser from the helicopter.

It is absurd to imagine that he would simply ignore the blood of the first martyr, if that was what is was, without even a comment.

And Lox, do you believe that the "murder" video was someone whose body has never been found, or even missed?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

The reason the Haaretz editorial is opposed to the panel is that it has decided in advance not to consider what decision-making procedures were followed in the run-up to the attack
It will not be allowed to directly question the soldiers who took over the ships but will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an Israeli general

Instead Israeli Prime Minister wants the panel to examine "whether Israel's Gaza blockade and the flotilla's interception conformed with international law and also investigate the actions taken by the convoy's organisers and participants."

According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, Judge Tirkel was opposed to bringing in foreign observers however, to give some veneer of credibility Netanyahu and the Americans have agreed on the appointment of Northern Ireland's Lord David Trimble and Ken Watkin, a former Canadian judge advocate general, to sit as observers in the inquiry.
Neither of the two men will have any voting rights nor any other ability to influence the inquiry in any way.

Doubts can be raised about the lack of impartiality, on Lord Trimble's part The Conservative peer recently joined an international "Friends of Israel" group set up by Dore Gold, a close associate of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.



Asked about the inquiry on Good Morning Ulster, Deputy First Minister Martin McGuiness quipped

                   "Sounds like another Widgery"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.

Totally unbiased.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

The sad state of 'human rights' organizations


By Gerald Steinberg, The Ottawa Citizen March 14, 2010 Comments (31)



The intense debate on the activities of government-funded groups like Rights & Democracy is an important and healthy development.

For many years, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that use the language of human rights and other universal moral causes have been exempt from independent examination. Their activities and publications were usually accepted at face value, under the assumption that the officials involved are virtuous and unbiased. But, like other powerful political actors, NGOs need independent evaluation and constructive criticism to prevent abuse.

From this perspective, Sima Samar's article ("Why I Resigned from Rights & Democracy," March 8), which rejects the legitimacy of this debate, is very troubling. Recent events have revealed how some of the most influential human rights and humanitarian NGOs have become platforms for radical ideological advocacy that is inconsistent with the moral principles they claim to espouse. Unfortunately, Samar has joined other ideologues in attacking independent research and detailed analysis, including the work done by my organization -- NGO Monitor -- without bothering to examine the facts.

Examples of biased NGOs are not limited to Canadian groups involved with, and providing funds to, pro-Palestinian organisations. Recently, Amnesty International was found to have allied itself with Moazzam Begg, a well known jihadist and Taliban supporter. Gita Saghal, who was in charge of Amnesty's gender division, made her moral objections public but, instead of an independent evaluation, Amnesty suspended Saghal and sought to silence the criticism.

Similar problems have been exposed by NGO Monitor's systematic research into the activities of Human Rights Watch. The bias in HRW's Middle East and North Africa division is reflected in the consistently greater emphasis given to Israel compared to Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, and other chronic rights abusers. (Holding a fundraising dinner in Saudi Arabia to pay for more attacks against Israel was particularly absurd.)

HRW also mounted an intense campaign on behalf of Judge Richard Goldstone's report on the Gaza war, which repeats many of HRW's allegations targeting Israel. Many of these allegations came from "senior military analyst" Marc Garlasco, an obsessive collector of Nazi memorabilia who wrote that wearing an SS jacket is "cool." When this behaviour was exposed in September, HRW announced it was suspending Garlasco "pending an investigation."

But HRW has failed to provide any information regarding the investigation, if any, on the credibility of the "war crimes" claims in Garlasco's reports. And in response to all of this, HRW founder Robert Bernstein has denounced his own organization for its distorted agenda, including efforts "to turn Israel into a pariah state."

Canadian NGOs, including Rights & Democracy, are not immune from the widespread ideological distortion of human rights. In her op-ed, Samar excluded details regarding the two Palestinian organizations, Al Mezan and Al Haq, which received grants during her tenure. Al Haq was an active participant in the notorious NGO Forum of the 2001 Durban conference that adopted the strategy of using human rights and boycotts for political warfare against Israel. Director Shawan Jabarin was described by the Israeli Supreme Court as a "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a human rights defender by day and a terrorist by night." Jabarin's association with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has also led the government of Jordan to bar his entry. (HRW, which, as noted, has its own problems with credibility and bias, is one of Jabarin's vocal defenders.)

Similarly, Gaza-based Al Mezan's core political agenda is reflected in its clearly one-sided reports, which consistently erase the context of Palestinian terror while delegitimizing Israeli self-defense. During the Gaza conflict, Al Mezan made numerous false allegations designed for propaganda purposes, such as "Israeli massacres," "slaughtering civilians," "scandalous war crimes," and "despicable disregard to civilian life." But the extensive Hamas use of human shields and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians, each one of which was a war crime, was not condemned.

Given this clear bias, there is no justification for the expenditure of taxpayer funds to support Al Haq, Al Mezan and similar groups. And the problem is not limited to Palestinian groups -- NGOs exhibit biases regarding the conflicts in Sri Lanka, Colombia, and Central Africa.

In many cases, NGOs tend to reinforce the moral failures of the United Nations Human Rights Council, whose meetings are often chaired by Libya, Iran, and other human rights "stalwarts." Such diversion and exploitation of the principles of universal human rights has done immeasurable damage.

Canada has the opportunity to set an important example in restoring the universal foundations of human rights and international justice. This will require the ability to reject the radical ideologies that have targeted democracies rather than serial human rights abusers. By restoring the moral agenda, and ending secretive practices and political biases in government-funded organisations like Rights & Democracy, Canada is taking an important step in the right direction.

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM

"The (Israeli) government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce."

"The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara."

A headline from Gaza or the UN?

No, the above is an editorial from Israel's own Haaretz newspaper


Israel and the Goldstone report

Richard Goldstone is a South African former judge; one of several liberal judges who issued key rulings that undermined apartheid from within the system by tempering the worst effects of the country's racial laws.
Among other important rulings, Goldstone made the Group Areas Act – under which non-whites were banned from living in "whites only" areas – virtually unworkable by restricting evictions. As a result, prosecutions under the act virtually ceased

He headed the influential Goldstone Commission investigations into political violence in South Africa between 1991 and 1994.
His willingness to criticise all sides and discover the truth led to him being dubbed "perhaps the most trusted man, certainly the most trusted member of the white establishment" in South Africa.

Goldstone's work investigating violence led directly to him being nominated to serve as the first chief prosecutor of the United Nations (UN) International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda from August 1994 to September 1996.
He prosecuted a number of key war crimes suspects, notably the Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, Radovan Karadžiæ and Ratko Mladiæ.
On his return to South Africa he took up a seat on the newly-established Constitutional Court of South Africa, to which he had been nominated by President Nelson Mandela

In 2009 Goldstone led an independent fact-finding mission created by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate international human rights and humanitarian law violations related to the Gaza War.
The mission's findings that Israel and Hamas had both committed serious violations of the laws of war and acts that amounted to crimes against humanity, saying that the conflict dominated by Israel's military superiority had killed 1,400 Palestinians and caused widespread damage to properties in Gaza.

Israel decided in advance that "it seemed clear beyond any doubt that the initiative was motivated by a political agenda and not concern for human rights", and decided not to cooperate

The 547-page report was promptly and strongly denounced by Israel and the United States as biased against Israel.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak on lashed out against the Goldstone report, calling it "distorted, false, and irresponsible"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said the report "has no legal, factual or ethical validity whatsoever."

In response Israel "asked a number of senior members of the Obama administration to assist in curbing the international fallout from the Goldstone Commission report released this week, which accuses Israel of committing war crimes in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead." - according to Haaretz


"Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair"
Oh please..............

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

GregF,

Just because I know you have trouble reading English, I'll repeat this part...

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."




What are you worried about, that the truth might be detemined, and it might not agree with what YOU want to believe happened?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission

I'd feel a lot mor comfortable with Studs Terkel heading a TRULY independent commission instead of this put-up job. Unfortunately, he's not available.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

Lox,

Did the UN issue a statement condemning Israel BEFORE there was any investigation?

Let me help you here- the answer is yes.



"First the sentence, THEN the trial"- I thought that was restricted to the Red Queen in "Alice...", but it seems that many here think that way.






Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair.

THAT is arrogance, my friend. The past record of the UN demonstrates that the verdict is ALWAYS determined by political points rather than factual evidence. If you do not see that from the decisions it has made, I will presume you are deluding yourself and not doing so on any other basis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine."

The same incident?

Where was the water cannon?

Where were the dangling weapons?

In the video that 'could' be faked, the soldiers aren't firing paintball guns, something which they do constantly at 35.57 of this video you provided.

But most importantly, proof that it isn't the same incident at all is that its on the wrong side of the ship.

So whether the other was or wasn't faked is neither provable nor disprovable using the video you have provided.

What you can see is something extremely unlikely which is an inconsistent strategy.

On the starboard side, they storm in with paintballs flying, and don't stop firing.

On the possibly faked port side, they aren't firing, they aren't taking evasive action, they are just sitting there.

These are the elite Israeli Navy seals we're talking about here ... do they just do what they like or do they follow a plan?

I suspect they follow a plan!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

"Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred."

This is a sarcastic comment which implies that the United Nations, with the exception of Israel and their unconditional security council ally the USA, is untrustworthy.

What an arrogant self deluding premiss.

Only Israel and those who agree with her can be trusted to be fair.

Are you going to deny that implication Bruce or are you going to justify it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM

The boats at 35:57

I don't see anyone tying up and sitting there subjecting themselves to humiliation.

I see boats coming close and firing Paintballs to ward passengers off, and then pulling away and keeping their distance.

As for the alleged Laughing Brothers,

Listen to the concersation.

The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident.

Noone scrutinizes the Fluid, and noone is casual or thinks its funny or themselves foolish for making any mistake.

The whole scene is a commentary where a group of men are trying to work out what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

"BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit. "


Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred.




"JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."


We know that Ireland and Canada are far too biased to allow them to look at the evidence here- lets get some fair-minded people like CarolC and Lox to investigate. After all, they already know what the conclusion is suppposed to be, right?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

"They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!"

They are also hiding below deck from a helicopter from which a lazer sight is being emitted.

They don't go up because they are scared.

Not all people would, like you, fearlessly shimmy up the ladder into the line of what might or might not be the line of live fire.

Some would be afraid of getting shot with the gun attached to that lazer sight.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM

http://www.jewishledger.com/articles/2010/06/16/news/news05.txt

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM

"Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT"

Bobad, you post when the article was published but not who wrote it. I'm trying (not always succeeding!) to follow up posts made on here elsewhere on the net - Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:32 PM

Israel appoints flotilla inquiry commission


Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT


JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights.

"I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In a statement released by the White House, the Obama administration noted that Israel's military justice system "meets international standards and is capable of conducting a serious and credible investigation." But it withheld its full support, noting that the administration would "await the conduct and findings of the investigation before drawing further conclusions."

Likewise, the White House called for the investigation to "be carried out promptly" and for findings to be presented publicly and to the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

"Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit."

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

Sorry Carol, just trying to be helpful about thermal imaging.
You sounded a bit uncertain about "night vision technology" being used.

Carol, why do you say the inspection was hasty? There is a cut in filming.
What would they do?
They have seen no injuries yet. They think this might be blood from what could only be a very serious injury. They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!
Open your mind Carol.

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.
You need them to be still missing or you will have to admit they lie.
Open your mind Carol.
They are all accounted for. We know the causes of all the deaths. The Norwegian would have told us about blood spilled at that early stage. There was none.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

Then please explain what you mean:

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN.

So now we have proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."




The RC was AFTER the violence on the MM. HOW can anything they said say anything about whether the Israelis were concerned about weapons on the MM?????????

You are not making any sense- I expect better from you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

beardedbruce, I am not using the Rachel Corrie as evidence of anything that happened on the Mavi Marmara. You're just blowing smoke now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

Also, I have said that while I can't say that the two ships are different, there still are some problems with the Israel video. The example I gave is the footage that is being described as an Israeli being thrown off the ship, but looks a lot more like an Israeli being gently lowered down into a life boat. I have said that I am not forming an opinion at this time about whether or not the Israeli footage is genuine.

You really should take the trouble to read people's posts if you're going to comment on them, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

Carol, some peole have questioned the authenticity of the landing video because the ship's painted name does not show up.
It is a thermal imagery video. It appears in black and white only, and the only contrast is between objects at different temperatures.
Any slight temperature difference due to different colour paints would be cancelled out by the heat conducting metal underneath.

The ship is recognisably the M Marmara, and you can match scenes with those captured by activists cameras.


It is genuine, but you and Lox thought the activists behaviour so bad that the Israelis might have staged it!

Keith, I believe I have at least twice, and possibly three times, explained that I didn't see any differences between the Israeli video and daytime pictures of the ship that couldn't possibly be accounted for because of the use of night vision technology. Don't you even bother to read the posts?

I'm beginning to think you're just trolling now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:39 AM

Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint.
If they had been shocked and said it was blood, Carol and co. would hail that as proof.
Instead she says that they can not tell the difference between paint and blood, because she knows it is blood.

Keith, they pronounce it paint only on the basis of a hasty examination during a lot of turmoil on the ship. They have already seen paint from paint pellets having been fired at the ship. It's an assumption hastily made while someone is apparently deliberately trying to confuse them about what they are seeing. But the fact is that paint from paint pellets would behave differently than the stuff we see in the video, so while it's an honest mistake for them to have made, it's pretty obvious that it is nevertheless a mistake.


Carol, your murder video shows a weapon that caused NONE of the deaths. You and Lox must accept it is a lie.

We won't know that until all of the missing passengers have been found and their bodies examined. If they ever are.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

Or maybe Espen Goffeng.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

The man who speaks in English and Nowegian is Norwegian activist Espen Goffen .

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Lox, look at my video at 35.57.
It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine.

After the boat sequences comes the "blood" sequence.
The man says it is paintball, not live ammunition. He is told to speak in Nowegian after that.
Can anyone translate?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

"The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."


This should read:

"The only video 'of a boat' that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

"So why do you think the boat video could be faked?"

The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship.

Is that the one you are asking about?

"Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided,"

I clicked on your link and went to 39:00 as you suggested.

Did you mean another video?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Sorry Lox.
You did post this about the boat video
"For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up."

They had a ladder. You can see it in the boat ready to be pulled up.
It has a line connected to the hook thay are trying to get on board but the activists keep pushing away.

Is that it?
What is not to believe?
That the Activists should be so hostile?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

Lox, you have never said why the boat video could be faked. You only said "It seems that the IDF faked two other videos, one being the video of the boat being sprayed with water, and the other of the man walking through the metal post."
So why do you think the boat video could be faked?

Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided, not the two from Carol. They check out the liquid, laugh and smile and say it is paint.
They were concerned it was blood. They checked. How could they get it wrong? You and Carol are just closing your minds.

Lox, the murder video claims to show the murder of the 19year Turkish American, but he was killed by 9mm rounds.
The soldier in the video is not using a 9mm weapon, so it must be a lie. Eye witnesses who say otherwise must be lying, just like the eyewitnesses who "saw" wounded being thrown into the sea, and who "saw" helicopters spraying water onto the ship for 3 hours.

Lox, BOTH sides lie.
Open your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

The missing jigsaw piece from this video which will answer our dilemna is to know whho the reporter with the camera was, and exactly what he said, after he saw the lazer dot, about live fire and paintballs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM

"You and Lox must accept it is a lie."

Where is your proof that it is a lie?

We have consistent, corroborating eyewitness testimony from hundreds of passengers, from all sorts of different backgrounds, be they Impartial News reporters, International parliamentarians, Turkish Aid workers or political protesters.

The question is whether or not the other available evidence damages their testimony that live fire was used before the troopers came aboard.

So far, this testimony remains undamaged.

So we have no evidence of lies other than faked evidence from the IDF.


"Lox, why do you think the boat video is fake?"

I believe I gave a quick rundaown of this in an earlier post.


"A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid."

There isn't that much paint in a paintball.

To produce that kind of spillage you'd need a big baloon to be thrown.


Why this talk of hydraulic fluid?


But lets get to the point - Keiths observations from the video ...

... one guy says - "is that Blood".

Another guy, about 15 feet away from the ladder, says that he doesn't think it is as he doesn't think they're using live fire, but it just paintballs.

He doesn't analyze it closely, nor comment on the behavuour of the liquid as we have ... largely because there was a helicopter above hs head, a navy surrounding him, and a lot of scared people around him.

A minute later, he sees a lazer sight, and ducks, and then makes a comment in his own language, in which iit discernable that he is reporting that the Israeli's could be using live fire or it could be paintballs.

Within a space of about 30 seconds he sees what could be blood and then a lazer sight, and then starts to keep his body down and covered as the possibility that he could be in the line of live fire dawns on him.

Keith, if this is 'proof' that accusations of use of live fire are a lie, then I am a monkeys uncle.


Keith, to clarify my position visavis your posts here and elsewhere, I think you are dishonest to say present yourself as an imaprtial critic with no allegiance, and to criticize otherrs of being partisan, when it is so clear that you are defending the side of the argument you are obviously loyal to right down to the wire.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM

Lox,

So you have proof certain it was not hydraulic fluid? Just asking, since CarolC has determined what it is by divination.

I do not know what it is, nor where it is coming from- but to state ( as CarolC has) that since it does not splatter like paint it must be blood seems to be making a large leap.


It MAY be blood- it might be hydraulic fluid- CarolC states it is too large a quantity to be from a paintball. SHE was the one who said it did not splatter like pain- I gave examples of other items that would splatter differntly, and a method to show that.

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)



BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

Lox, you have posted (an unprovoked attack on me) elsewhere.
Are you not going to respond to the points put to you here?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:33 AM

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN."

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

Not exactly "proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."

The prohibited items of the embargo are those items that can be used for terrorist activities- such as the manufacture of those homemade rockets YOU say were not supplied by Iran, and explosives ( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)