BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Googling Rabbis Gaza did not turn up any story on the protest on the AP website, nor on the BBC News website.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

"I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents."
Like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel, do you mean - plenty of examples of that.
Sorry Roberto; haven't had time to check your claim that you haven't accused anybody of anti-Semitism - if I am mistaken, I apologise in advance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

Googling Jewish Rabbis prayer Gaza June 14" turned up absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

I hope no-one minds me repeating this query, but it may have got lost.

I'm interested to know if - as indeed the organisers hoped and requested - the prayers from Jewish Rabbis on behalf of the flotilla victims which was supposed to have been held in front of the White House yesterday, was actually reported anywhere in the US either nationally or locally? I Googled earlier today and couldn't find any news stories about it. Maybe people in the US will be able to enlighten?


[Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister - PM
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

Thanks mousethief.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Ah. The English term is "double standard".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents. You are free to offend your antagonists, but woe betide if they say something that could possibly be regarded as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

What does "double moral" mean? I don't think that translates directly from the Italian very well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

I have just seen evidence that the footage that the government of Israel released showing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara attacking the Israelis was faked. The footage I saw shows that the ship in the Israeli footage is not the Mavi Marmara, and suggests that it is a sister ship to the Mavi Marmara (very similar, but not identical), that was recently sold.

I am hesitant to post the video, because the person speaking engages in some speculation about Jewish mythology that I can't verify, and so I'm reluctant to pass that along. But if pictures of both ships are examined, you can see that the ship in the Israeli video is not the Mavi Marmara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

"Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox."

I'm glad you took my post in good humour Roberto! But I'm still not inclined to discuss CarolC or her posting habits or even pressing issues concerning her breakfast cereal, as this thread isn't about her. I read her posts the same as I read everyone else's and I weigh up what she has to say along with everything else posted here - as I'm sure we all do.

As for Lox, he can speak for himself. But no doubt if he disagreed with CC on something, he'd argue against it exactly the same as with any other poster.

And that's as much as I have to say about the fascinating CarolC :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Roberto, it was you who started the accusations, and you who set the tone. You have been conducting a campaign to silence people by trying to discredit them rather than their arguments.

You do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, do you not? I have asked you this question before, but you have not responded to my question. If you do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, then you are practicing racism and the privileging of one group over another. Do you or do you not support maintaining a Israel as a Jewish state?

As to the accusation that you have lied about me, a thorough look at your posting history will back me up on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

Double moral makes every attempt to discuss something a waste of time. An example: CarolC writes "Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat". I could say exactly the same. But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Crow Sister, it is true, I've replied to CarolC more than to any other person, but you must admit she has the highest percentage of posts, a machine gun. Besides, she's so touchy when someone criticizes her points, but so ready to directly insult her counterpart, that it is difficult not to react to her remarks. Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

By the way, Roberto, Lox is in a better position to know the extent of my advocacy for human rights around the world than you are, because he has access to my Facebook status updates.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

My comment was about Kyrgyzstan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

I must have been thinking of a list posted by someone else when I made my response about Cambodia. I don't think I've seen the list you're referring to, mousethief, but your point about it is right on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM

I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

I'd say we are manipulated by Israel far more than the other way. There is no political heart in this country to criticize Israel.

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:13 PM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

All suffering people have my sympathy, and they also have my interest. But that's not the point or the purpose of my activities when I engage in discussions like this one. From my perspective, discussions like this one are opportunities to reveal the truth about atrocities for which I have been made complicit. Sympathy is nice, but it isn't going to save any lives. Telling the truth about atrocities being committed in my name and/or with my tax dollars can ultimately save lives.

I have a very big problem with the propaganda campaigns being waged against the governments and/or groups who are in the cross hairs of the US and Israel's imperialist agenda, however. I may have a lot of sympathy for the people in Iran, for instance, but all of the bloviating in the US about human rights abuses in that country aren't really because my government or the media in my country really give a shit about the people of Iran. It's for the purpose of softening us up for an eventual attack on that country. That's how it was done in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. So when you participate in that kind of collective show of outrage, rather than helping the people of the countries in question, and ensuring that their human rights will be upheld, you are actually helping the imperialist agenda of the US and you help to insure that the human rights of the people in those countries will erode even further. So I don't participate in that kind of activity. Those who do are not helping anyone's human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

How about this: your indignation about something you suppose about someone you've never met, is neither here nor there. And nor does your 'indignation' about what you imagine to be the case concerning another poster that you've never met, have anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Apart from perhaps a petty attempt to discredit said poster, who it would seem posts on subjects that you appear to object to seeing openly debated. So, why not go and start a "Fans of CarolC Thread!" if you're so interested in surmising about her, and you can ask her what cereal she has for breakfast and what her favourite colour is there, and leave other posters on this thread to discuss the subject that it was created for.. Just a thought ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM

Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat. That doesn't qualify you to disagree with me when I say that I don't differentiate between groups on the subject of human rights.

When I state the the US and Israel are responsible for most of the problems in the world, I'm just stating a fact. And that website you posted a link for is pitifully incomplete. And it also doesn't discuss how many of the atrocities it lists are the product of interference by countries like the US and Israel. Let's take the killing fields of Cambodia. That never would have happened had the US not already killed millions of people there through its covert bombing campaign of that country. Pol Pot was able to rise to power because of the anger the people of Cambodia felt towards the president of Cambodia, who had assured the people of that country that they would not be bombed by the US, and because we utterly destroyed that society and its ability to function. Your list doesn't even mention the US' covert bombing campaign of Cambodia or the millions of people killed by it.

Let's pick Somalia as an example of a conflict for which the US is responsible. Every time the people in Somalia try to create order in their country and assert their right to self-determination, the US, though covert means and with the assistance of the Kenyan military, which the US supports, destroys it. The US is fighting a proxy resource war in Somalia and has no intention of allowing the Somalis to assert their right to self-determination. Other Western countries have been complicit in the state of affairs in that country also, through over fishing and dumping toxic waste in Somali waters. We never hear about the atrocities being committed in Somalia by the US and other Western countries (sometimes through their proxies, the Kenyans). We only ever hear about the bad things done by Somalis.

I support the right of the Somalis to be left alone to live their lives without the interference of powerful Western governments. As long as Somalia has oil and it's easy for Western countries to take advantage of its lack of ability to defend itself from other countries over fishing and dumping toxic waste in its waters, I don't see any possibility that they will ever be free of such interference.

Let's look at Sudan. We always hear about the terrible things the Sudanese government is doing, but we don't ever hear about the atrocities being committed by the rebels who are being backed by the US and Israel. Sudan is yet another proxy war in which atrocities are being committed by the people who are being supported by the US and also Israel.

Let's look at Sri Lanka and the massacres of civilians there not too long ago. The Sri Lankan military was trained (and no doubt armed) by Israel.

Most of the dictatorial regimes in the world were put in place and are being propped up by the US. We have training schools in this country for despots to learn how to take power and keep it. If you scratch the surface of almost every conflict in the world, you will see just below it the activities of the CIA and/or Mossad, and you will see some valuable resource or balance of power equation at the bottom of it.

And that's not even beginning to address economic atrocities being committed by the US, and the strife and human rights catastrophes that arise from those.

Roberto, unlike you, I do not support the privileging of any group(s) over any other group(s). I am a passionate supporter of human rights for all groups of people, not just the Palestinians. I will admit that I do side with the indigenes whenever there is a conflict between them and any interlopers in their territory. A group's right to self-determination does not include a right to dispossess, displace, or subjugate another people. I do not differentiate between groups of people with regard to human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

What causes you to draw the conclusion that anyone on here has no sympathy for sufferers of human rights abuses not committed by the US or Israel?

I don't see any indication that anybody here feels a lack of sympathy for any sufferers of human rights.

I do see that Carol refuses to give tacit consent to her government and its allies for the human rights abuses they commit.

Carol accepts the reality that as a participant in the US democracy, any action committed by her government, good or evil, is her responsibility.

You will find she has a lot to say about US domestic and foreign policy.

The actions of her government that she finds most upsetting are the human rights abuses it supports, directly and indirectly all around the world.

So your criticisms don't apply.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

I've partecipated to demonstrations on these problems since the Seventies. We used to put the blame on the US and the Western Countries, mine included. First because of Vietnam, then Chile, and so on. We had many good points. But not only good points, and we've often been not so attentive to other problems. We've been deaf towards Eastern Europe under Moscow, for instance. Nowadays, there still are many and important causes to put the blame on the US, the Western Countries, Israel. But that is not the whole story, today more than decades ago. It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM

"The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt. "

I have far less faith in the competance of the US government than you do. I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM

Not what I said BB,

I said that the last I knew there was a conflict betwen the people and the US puppet.

A few months later, there is still unrest.

There is also still a US base.

If the new non US backed government was being respected by the US why hasn't the US base been closed down?


The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ..."


So, the US is at fault because we did not go in and force them to accept the leader we wanted??? And the present government ( that the US is NOT supporting) is allowing this atrocity, but that makes it the US's fault?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:59 AM

"CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel"

No. You misunderstand.

She does not "feel" responsible.

She IS responsible.

Her country is a democracy.

Her government claims to represent her with her consent.

Her government tells lies to the electorate in her country to justify its actions in her name with her money.

The above are not opinions, they are facts.


Carol has also qualified that many of these places are in the state they are in with the help of US, UK or Israeli backing.

We - the allies - the good guys - if not involved directly, are often involved behind the scenes.


A perfect example is BB's recent example of the unrest in Kyrgyzstan.

Why is there unrest there?

Surprise surprise - there's a US base there that the locals don't want anymore.

The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ...

... ring any bells?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

Lox, the tax dollars argument doesn't always work. CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel, and therefore she concentrates her attention most of all on them. I take note of that, no problem. But when she judges the US and Israel the two biggest problems and cause of problems in the world, I can participate to this discussion as well, because it is an universal assessment that we all can debate.

I posted a summary previously about the Freedom House Report 2010. I don't swear they are right (but I'm pretty sure CarolC is wrong), they propose a list of the countries with the worst human rights conditions, different from what CarolC says. Is it possible to discuss that? I think that the passionate defenders of human rights should be interested.

From the Report:

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

The report also includes eight additional countries near the bottom of Freedom House's ratings scale: Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Guinea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. The two territories
of South Ossetia and Western Sahara are also included in this group."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

"MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians"

Not military.

None of the aid given to palestinians by the US can be used to hurt Israelis.

The US and the UK Arms Israel with the most current high tech stuff available.

Hamas commits human rights abuses.

But Hamas' human rights abuses are not facilitated with my alleged consent and my taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

I disagree with much CarolC presents as fact, which I see as conjecture, but IMO she does care about human rights, and I understand her point about being more concerned about those violations her taxes are paying for.



"Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel."

However, I would like to point out that MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians. So I hope she continues to apply her standards of behaviour to all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

TYPO:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights"

Should read:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights abuses"

Until you can find examples of her being in favour of any human rights abuses you must find an example of this.

Unfounded accusations against people are called slander and lies.

You should back up your claim or retract it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

"but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world."

Carol may disagree with you there.

And knowing Carol she will have alot of evidece to back up her claim.


In addition to which, Carol takes responsibility for human rights abuses which are conducted in her name and with her tax dollars.


Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights.

You can't do that which makes your comment wrong.


Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel.


Roberto, your reasponable facade is slipping and giving way to slander.

Is this because your are runnng out of on topic arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:55 AM

CarolC writes "I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights."

Not true, based on what I've read by her. CarolC is specialised in US and Israel abuses (the biggest problems in the world - she says), but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world. Therefore, the worst states, regimes and political groups in the world are not her main concern, and she can't be considered a passionate supporter of human rights in general.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM

Lox, the boat crew in the video are trying to get a hook on to the ship.
They are not tied up alongside.
They have a ladder ready to be pulled up.

Carol, how do we know people are still missing please.

Carol, I accept that Israelis used force on other vessels, but not lethal force. As they were not attacked they had no reason to use their pistols.

I know we have the scene of blood, but do you have any other evidence that live fire was used prior to boarding?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM

"Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest."

I Disagree Keith on the basis that the video of the boat tied up and the video of the attacking boats in the second video do not corroborate each other.

They are very different for a number of reasons, wheter it be firing of what appear mainly to be paintballs, but may be other weapons too, whether it be the fact that the boats come close enough to shoot and then pull away, whether it be that the boats in the second video are moving a LOT faster, and bumping up off the sea with each wave, or even whether it just be that fact that the troops in the second video are alert and actually doing something.

For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up.

Why would they stop firing paintballs and then, once they came under 'attack' just sit and allow themselves to be humiliated.

Sorry, but the question of whether or not it was faked is a pertinent one, and consistent with the faked weapons find and the faked radio communications.

None of the passengers videos have been discredited yet.

The other video of the passengers on deck walking through metal posts etc is more clearly a fake for all the reasons explained in the video.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.

Keith, there were many people with few wounds. And a few people with many wounds. There are no hard figures because some people are missing and it's difficult to get information about everyone at this time, but the number of wounded is at least 30 and could be as high as 60, and the dead are at least 9 and could be as high as 19. I would say that 30 wounded people is certainly an indication of indiscriminate shooting.

The Israelis did fire their weapons on the other boats. They didn't use live fire, but they did use rubber bullets, tasers, and paint pellets on unprotected people. And they beat the people in the other boats, and abused them in many other ways. On previous flotillas, they use force in other ways, for instance ramming an aid boat and nearly sinking it, and various kinds of abuse.

But since they started using live fire before they boarded the Mavi Marmara, it cannot be argued that they were acting in self-defense when they did so, so they must have had an intention to kill people on that ship before they ever boarded it. And as we can see in the photographic evidence that Ali Abunimah presents, they were firing indiscriminately at passengers in situations where they were not being attacked or threatened.

I appreciate your not being willing to participate in the inappropriate use of the word "anti-Semitism", Keith. But I would put this differently...

Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause

I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

McGrath, this is an emotive subject, and we are discussing violent death, but can we try to be rational and objective?
I would be happy to start discussing the Northern Ireland conflict again, but not on this thread.
Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause, and anti Israeli. That does not mean anti Semitic. I say she is not and distance myself from those who do.

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.
I think we should give credit for the use of riot control weapons rather than lethal ones, imperfect though they are.
I note that on all previous and subsequent boardings, where the soldiers were not attacked, they did not fire their pistols.
I think the murder video was being dishonest in its captioning.
Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest.

Do we have any more information on the 6 missing?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:57 AM

Rather than start a new thread, I'm adding this here. Poland has arrested an Israeli believed to be involved in the passport misuse and the murder in Dubai under a European warrant. Germany wants him extradited to face trial there. Israel is apparently demanding he is released to Israel.

Telegraph version of story

Meanwhile Blair is on the air about changing the blockade. He wants the list of items changed from permitted to prohibited and to include rebuilding materials, monitored so as not to be used by Hamas. Also that materials should not go in via sea but through Ashdod and overland.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM

Etymology <> meaning. It doesn't matter what the individual parts of a compound word "mean". It doesn't matter what language they came from, or what they meant in that language. What matters is how a language community uses the word. The word "antisemitic" is used by speakers of English to mean "prejudice, hatred, violence (etc) against Jews." It doesn't matter a rat's ass that Arabic is called a "Semitic" language. What matters is how the vast majority of the speakers of English use the word "antisemitic." That's what it means for a word to "mean" something. Usage. Not etymology.

You might as well say I don't wear "glasses" because the lenses are made of plastic. Totally misses the point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:22 AM

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/european-and-american-weapons-used-in-israeli


This article talks about the origin of some of the weapons and equipment used by the Israelis. And it has this to say about paintball guns...

"Israeli propaganda made much of the fact that the Gaza Freedom Flotilla hijackers "only" used paintball guns (that is until they started shooting people with live ammunition), as if this was somehow a "safe" or even a nonviolent thing to do! Paintball is considered by many people a sport where opposing teams hunt each other down and fire projectiles which explode against a target marking them with paint. Everywhere that this activity is legal, it is strictly regulated for safety, because firing paintballs at a person who is not wearing protective gear, especially a face mask, can result in serious injury including loss of eyesight and possibly even death. Firing paintball guns indiscriminately against unprotected civilians is an incredibly reckless and inherently violent and dangerous thing to do."

So what purpose is there in using paintball guns? My own theory, considering the fact that all of the paint used was red, and the fact that people appear to have difficulty figuring out what is paint and what is blood, is that they used it to confuse people about what they were seeing, and to cause them to think they were seeing paint when they were actually seeing blood.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:52 AM

I can't find it, and I don't remember where I saw it. But it does provide possible answers to your questions, Keith. I'll keep an eye out and maybe I'll find it eventually.


On another note...

In this piece, Ali Abunimah does a good job of proving that the Israelis were firing indiscriminately at people when they were not under any threat.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/20299014

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The guy was saying that Israel uses pump action 22s. He said if several 22 shells were pumped into someone at very close range, it could kill them. And we don't know that no one was killed with 22s because there are still several missing passengers who have not been accounted for. He also said that these guns might not have a flash.

He said it can't be a paint ball gun because it doesn't have the thing on top that would hold the pellets. I don't have time to find it right now, but I'll look when I have more time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

...an unlucky hit...

Like the tear gas grenade aimed at Emily Henochowicz that destroyed her eye, for example.

It's taken a generation and more for the truth about Bloody Sunday to be recognised and accepted by the political successors of the government that was responsible. It'll probably take as long for the same to happen for Bloody Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:22 PM

"that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit."

So what do you think it was firing Keith? hardly a paintball if it had "pellets usually used in shotguns"

"A pepper-spray projectile, also called a pepper-spray ball, or pepper-spray pellet is a projectile weapon made up of a powdered chemical that irritates eyes and nose (see pepper spray).
These less-lethal weapons launch a fragile ball which breaks upon impact and releases a super irritant powder called PAVA (capsaicin II) pepper

Although generally considered non-lethal when properly used (targets should exclude the face, eyes, throat or spine), deaths have occurred when they have been fired at inappropriate areas.
In one well publicized incident, in 2004 where the Boston Police Department during crowd control situation killed 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove using a pepper-spray projectile weapon"

But this was NOT paint, NOT pepper.......

It was multiple 9mm shots mainly to the head which caused the fatal wounds of those victims autopsied - however, most reports suggest that six victims are still missing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

Thanks Carol.
Pump action might be paintball or plastic, but not 9mm so not fatal shots.
Emma, that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

I don't really plan to get back into this discussion. But, I feel I should share a couple of perspectives I have found. Hope it contributes to the discussion...I'm outt'a here.


The Psychological Impact of the Second Intifada on Israeli Society:
http://dev.pij.org/jcms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=728&

I could not get beyond the abstract for the paper below, but it seems interesting.

The phychological Impact of Terriorism:A double Edged Sword
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791018

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM

Probably this is simplistic, but I must say again that: Israel, as a nation in this world of nations, ought to be able to be challenged when it is wrong without the challenger automatically being labeled antisemitic. ----- It was wrong when Martin Gibson did that a year or two back, and it is wrong in recent times as well. I understand the sensitivities and also the realities involved.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

I see no reason not to use the term anti-Zionist to reflect objection to current policies by Netanyahu.

What is it with these apologists saying that the people onboard the Mavi Marmara were
not really shot at point blank by the Israeli commandos? Who cares what weapons were used? They killed people and innocent ones at that.

The passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara killed no one and even helped wounded Israeli commandos.

It's pretty clear what happened.

Biden and Obama are both apologists for Zionist murders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

By the way, he said he thinks it's some kind of pump action gun, and you can quite clearly see the Israeli pumping the gun, which, I guess is evidence of the gun being fired.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM

I saw a report from someone with some expertise on weapons and the kinds of weapons being used by Israel, and he gave some probabilities about what he thinks it most likely is. I've lost track of it among all of the other bits of information I've accumulated, but I'll try to find it and put it here.