BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

I think you should go back and read what I've said again, greg. You are mischaracterizing what I said rather liberally.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

Are you sure you've got this right? The Khazars were nice to the Jews, who therefore went to live with them. The Khazars then all converted to Judaism. The Jews then all died out, and the Khazars turned into the European Jews, who therefore had no right to go back to Israel. Well, I can think of several queries, but the main one is this: if the Khazars were so nice to them, how come all the Jews died.
The other query is: are you absolutely sure that all Israeli archaeologists believe this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

I noticed in that list of stuff prohibited from being taken into Gaza that it includes musical instruments.

Logical enough, I suppose - after all, as Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This machine kills fascists".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

That was a very strange non-sequitur and straw man argument you gave just then. Did you really think I was stupid enough to fall for it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

There's a book about the theory of Khazar Jewish antecedents. "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

1) Koestler wasn't a historian
2) The book had negiligible historical data to fall back on and is a classic case of the undergraduate student thesis having a pivotal couple of chapters padded out with commonly perceived history (what we would euphemistically call 'extensive backgrounding')
3) Koestler had a lot of hypothesis and conditionally framed sentences and paragraphs. He had very little that was solid in there.
4) Koestler explicitly stated that the Khazar theories should not be used as evidence pror or con Israel's right to exist as a UN recognized State.
5) There was some other stuff in there about racial perceptions which was not historical but very much Koestler.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

The America's would certainly look a bit different for starters. I wonder where the current European descendants would be housed? Alaska?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

The Jews were not driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago. The descendants of those Jews are still there in the form of Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

How many of the Muslims (or Christians) in the West Bank and Gaza have Israeli citizenship, pdq? How many of them are allowed to participate in Israeli politics?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

What would the world look like if the diaspora of all the worlds races reclaimed those lands that they once occupied two thousand years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

Well Carol, Some do ... and some don't.

Digging into genetics we would be surprised to find that we are very much all the same.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

When driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago, Jews went to every corner of Europe and started new lives. Saying that European Jews are mostly of Turic descent is just plain silly.

Calling Israel the Jewish State in quite common among Jews but probably disliked by Muslims.

Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Well, number6, I think there are a lot of Jews who feel differently than you about that. I happen to disagree with them also.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought a Jew was someone of the Jewish religion ... genetics is not a matter of religion.

this thread is evolving into lunacy. But then I suspected it would from the beginning.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAGnTo4KJo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

The above linked article also addresses the genetics issue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

There's quite a lot to work with, but here's a sample...

"Wexler argues from linguistic and other evidence "that the Ashkenazic Jews must have consisted of a mix of Greek, Balkan Romance and Balkan Slavic, Germano-Slavic and Turkic (Khazar, Avar) converts to Judaism and their descendants and only a minority of ethnic Jews—many of whom in all probability came from other parts of Europe rather than Palestine itself." Wexler rejects the Khazar mass migration hypothesis on linguistic grounds, arguing that there was more conversion in place than migration. "Hence, contemporary Judaism is best defined not as the continuation of the Judaism which served as an antecedent of Christianity and Islam, but as a newly Judaized variant of European (mainly Slavic) paganism and Christianity…most of the features of Old Palestinian Judaism and Semitic Hebrew to be found in Ashkenazic 'Judaism' and Medieval Ashkenazic/Modern Israeli 'Hebrew' were latter borrowings rather than original inheritance [original emphasis]." This thesis has been obscured by philo-German and anti-Slavic chauvinism among scholars, Jewish and non-, of Ashkenazi Jewry, by disciplinary blinders, and by inertia."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

A couple of years ago, I provided a synopsis of Schlomo Sands' book on this subject and another mudcatter provided what they apparently thought was a rebuttal of Sands' main thesis, but when I read the review, its main problem with Sands' work was that he seemed to think he was breaking new ground, and they were saying that what he had published was already common knowledge among Israeli academics. I'll try to find that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

"That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German,.." etc.

With respect to those discussing the matter of genetics, this is a substantial side issue. The question surely is whether or not (even were such a claim to such ancestry substantiated) current treatment of Palestinians is reasonable based on such supposed ancestral claims. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

Emma B.

And the statistics for the Arab nations? How do they treat their Jewish populations?

How have the Minority populations on each side increased/decreased since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

Carol:

Just one example of the contrary view, with a summary of DNA evidence.

That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German, also known as Yiddish (I'm very sad to have to write that in the past tense).

But that has nothing to do with whether Israelis (or Somalis) are allowed to attack ships in international waters and kidnap the ship's complement. Or that collective punishments are a breach of international law. Or that if you want peace, you'd better start being just.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

"Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong."

INCORRECT

As of December 2009. Of the 7.5 million inhabitants of Israel 75.4% of them were Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% were Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others"

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews

Most Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations, as well as Arab Druze, among other religious communities.



Israeli Arabs have generally remained moderate throughout the years; they have enjoyed the benefits of an advanced economy, but they suffer serious discrimination in housing, access to resources and political representation.

However, as has been observed
"The fear of ethnic cleansing among the Arabs of Israel is real and growing. The current Israeli government is reinforcing this fear implicitly by requiring this vulnerable community to become even more compliant, with recent discussions of the need for a loyalty oath.

Furthermore, Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman has introduced legislation, clearly targeting the Arab community, which if passed would "revoke citizenship or permanent status from any person convicted of terrorist activity or of espionage on behalf of a terrorist organization".
Is there a legitimate reason to apply more pressure on the most moderate Arab community in the Middle East? Such moves will only generate radicals. Israel needs more allies, not adversaries."


In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks.

The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education.

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[


Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel's ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state's Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with "national treason".

Since the state's founding in 1948 a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens.

As civil marriage is banned in Israel, in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple's return.

However Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel.
Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM

"The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.

Most of the available information about the Khazars comes from Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Byzantine, and Slavic sources, most of which are reliable. There is also a large quantity of archaeological evidence concerning the Khazars which illuminates multiple aspects of the Khazarian economy (arts and crafts, trade, agriculture, fishing, etc.) as well as burial practices.

(Origins) The Khazars were a Turkic1 people who originated in Central Asia..."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZi2jOqRho

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I've already provided more than ample documentation from Israeli sources for this assertion right here in the Mudcat. It happens to be true. There is little to no dispute among Israeli archaeologists and historians that the European Jews are descended from the Khazars. This is accepted as fact by the majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians.

This is simply not in dispute to any significant degree.

On another note...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65222L20100603

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages

Probably only partly true at most. There was such a tribe (the Khazars); it's doubtful if they contributed much to the Jewish gene pool in the long term though.

On the other hand, it's pretty certain that many Palestinians are descended from Jews of Holy Land times. It's also true, but conveniently forgotten by Zionist enthusiasts, that it was the Islamic Ottoman Empire that gave refuge to Sephardic Jews from Spain after Ferdibella and the Inquisition expelled them, and to Jewish refugees from Bavaria a little before that. Jews had considerable freedom, and self- governing status, until the decline of that empire brought Western- style racial nationalism to Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMGq11wQFI&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

"but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land."

Mmm, many Americans claim ancestry that goes back to the UK, maybe English people aught to be barricaded into Cornwall, so you'ze all can 'come home'?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, do you consider Israel to be "the Jewish State"?

And if it's not, why aren't the Palestinians who were driven from their homes allowed to return?

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages, and that they all converted to Judaism en mass, when their emperor did. They never lived in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

"Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state..." ~ CarolC

Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong.

"...the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East." ~ CarolC

Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

That's not any of our business, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

But the trouble is they don't seem to be agreeing how precisely they should configure it. As I think we have all noticed for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM

We should let the indigenous peoples of the Middle East decide how their region should be configured in terms of nations and boundaries. It's none of our f*cking business how they configure their region.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

"why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

The Palestinians (some at least of whom had fought on the Allied side in WWI) were not consulted on this, since they were merely darkish people who happened to be in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM

Show me the laws, beardedbruce. And not from a Zionist source. Show me the laws from sources that represent the governments in question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Than you disagree with all the Moslim countries, whio have laws against that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Sure, beardedbruce. I think Jews should be able to live wherever they want. As long as they live there as equal citizens and not as occupiers or colonialists.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

By the way, the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East.

Kendall, no weapons were found.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

So you agree that the ARAB Palestinian Homeland formed from that same Mandate should be disolved, and Jews allowed to settle there?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

If the Israelis planted anything on that ship, seems to me it would be weapons, not gas masks and body armor.

Were any weapons found?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

Since some here think this does not matter , why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc.

Or is it just Jews that get the shaft?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea."

Surely no group can sensibly refer to supposed land rights from a Millenium or two ago?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That is a thoughtful post, Roberto. But if you support a permanent Jewish majority in Israel, then you also support discrimination and ethnic cleansing of those in Israel who are not Jewish.

The Palestinians have a right to return to their areas of origin under international law and United Nations resolutions. Preventing them from doing so it a crime.

If the Palestinians in occupied Palestine decide that they would prefer a state of their own, I don't think it is my place to argue with them about that. But the Palestinian Israelis will still be facing discrimination and ethnic cleansing in Israel, and I can't support that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

CarolC writes: "all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes".

It seems so reasonable. Many of my friends say the same thing. BUT. If we would adopt this idea for the many peoples in the World and in Europe that had to move away from their land and support projects of return, we would set much of the world ablaze. Much of Europe, at least.

We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea. We must support the idea of giving both people, two peoples they are, their land and state. Dear CarolC, I don't like no religion, but today I must face the fact that at least for a long long time, not necessarely for ever and ever, one will be a state with a strong Jewish character, and the other a state with a strong Muslim character. In the first case, I must say that Israel has been able for a period to manage being the Jewish state and a laical state as well and the only democracy in the area. I hope the other state will emancipate from being a theocracy. But they can't be a single state, not now, in this very period of history, if we want to consider real situation and not only our ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05bo1xh1JDo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

And by the way, most Israeli archaeologists and historians accept as fact that the European Jews have no historical or ancestral ties to the Middle East, whatever. None. Zip. Nada. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the presence of the Mizrahim. But the European Jews have no legitimate claim to that land whatever.

Having said that, I have not suggested forcing the European Jews to leave Israel. I am saying that all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes or as close as they can get to what was their homes before they were driven out, and the government should not have a specifically Jewish character. It's character should be neutral with regard to any particular ethnic group.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM

Who should I displace so that I might leave the US, PEACE? No matter where I go, I will be occupying someone else's land. I could just lay down and die, but I if I do that, I will be of no help to anyone. If I remain where I am and work to try to correct iniquities (even those being carried out against the native peoples of this country), I can make a difference.

I actually support the Native American movement to take back sovereignty of this country.

So spare my your hypocrisy, PEACE.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM

Sorry, that was something of a thread drift prompted by a conversation I had with a friend of mine yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

EDIT: 'I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour LABELLED "self-hating".'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

My English Jewish friends (all descendants of Holocaust refugees) are ashamed of Israel. In fact they are the most angry "anti-Semitic" sounding voices I hear.

In the media, I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour "self-hating". It must be very troubling for people like my friends - those who see it as such - to witness echoes of the very same atrocities which their own grandparents escaped to England from, and then to be damned by their own people as a consequence of feeling that way.

I don't know, exactly what is it that makes the abuser, abuse? But it's even more perplexing on a collective scale.