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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM The deleted posts were mine. Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other. That is what you do now. I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence. All my arguments are from the video evidence. That is why I have no more arguments. I have never repeated IDF propaganda, and I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades. You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back. The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it. There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items. Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials. All debatable, but everyone knows about it.
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Roberto Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM I meant she made an appeal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM What means "signed a call"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Roberto Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM Angela Lano signed a call in favour of the right of Robert Faurisson to deliver a lecture at Teramo University in 2007 (The Holocaust never happened, the gas chambers are an invention, and so on) and has often being protagonist of conferences together with characters that belong to the extreme right, fascist and nazi type, such as the scholar Claudio Mutti, linked with Franco Freda, the terrorist with responsibility in the Piazza Fontana Massacre (1969), Tiberio Graziani, a fascist scholar, etc. But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security By Sheera Frenkel | McClatchy Newspapers JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory. Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza. Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza. However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare. "A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the government said. McClatchy obtained the government's written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year. Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza. Gisha focuses on Palestinian rights. (A State Department spokesman, who wasn't authorized to speak for the record, said he hadn't seen the documents in question.) The Israeli government took an additional step Wednesday and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal. A government spokesman, who couldn't be named as a matter of policy, told McClatchy that authorities will continue to ease the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4681640#Comments_Container?storylink=addthis |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM I get extremely fed up of hearing accusations of Anti Semitism levelled at anyone who dares criticise the actions of the Israeli government, or the IDF. When will apologists for these thugs realise that the Israeli government and the IDF are institutionally Anti Semitic in their hatred of Palestinian Arabs.. Both Jews and Arabs are Semites, so the concept that only hatred of Jews is Anti Semitic, is, to put it bluntly, arrant bloody nonsense. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM In this last video, we can quite clearly hear shots being fired before the Israelis have come down from the helicopters, and what I had thought was paint on a wall from pellets in the lower quality version, is actually blood dripping down from a hatch (before the Israelis have come down from the helicopter). |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM "I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too" I'm just wondering if the last few posts allegedly from Keith were or if some prat is playing silly buggers - heaven's knows it wouldn't be the first time an identity has been abused |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM Note to Keith - Please see the first message in this thread. I had to prohibit Guest posts in this thread because we had some troublesome ones. I deleted a number of posts from you because you weren't logged in. If you need help logging in, contact me by e-mail. -Joe Offer- joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM ""It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area."" Let us assume for a moment that you are right about this. So, the two state solution is the better way to go (hypothetically). That would require that each side remain within its own territory. With me so far?......GOOD! Then tell me this. Which side is occupying part of the other side's territory, and has been for over fifty years. I'll giv you a clue.........ITS NAME IS ISRAEL! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM More footage with much better sound and resolution... http://gazaflotilla.delegitimize.com/statements/activist-statements/exclusive-16-minute-footage-from-mavi-marmari/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM It certainly is, Lox. I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too. He is telling us to believe the people who are hiding evidence and he's telling us not to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence to be seen by the public, and that to believe the people who are hiding evidence is being open minded, and to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence shown to the public is closed minded. Interesting mental equation there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM Weird - keiths post in which he admitted to having no more arguments has disappeared. Oh well. I read it while it was there so I will take his admission with me. I think I've had enough of this headache. It's utterly exhausting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM How many people can remember the names of pretty well anyone killed in any sort of conflict? Non-violent struggle is no different. Non-violence isn't about being safe, it's about achieving a kind of victory that violence cannot achieve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM I just saw an announcement that a flotilla that is supposed to be leaving Lebanon for Gaza in a week or two may have as many as 50 ships. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM But Kevin, how many people have heard of Bassem Abu Rahme or Tristan Anderson or Emily Henochowicz or the others not 'martyrs' just young people standing up for what they believe |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM That's what I meaqnt, Emma. Effective non-violent protesters can expect to meet violence, including lethal violence. And the more effective they become, the greater the violence they will meet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM More passenger testimony |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM "It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack" This is what the cammandoes - at least some of them rather young men from the reports - had been led to expect A 'Bilin style' protest where non violent protesters like 29 year old Bassem Abu Rahme are killed |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM you just know that Israelis can only do bad things This has no basis in reality. I would say that the Israeli government only does bad things, and the evidence supports this assertion. That is hardly the same as saying that all Israelis can only do bad things, and your having said it that way shows your own bias. and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious. I am calling for the release of all evidence. You are the one who wants to suppress the rest of the evidence. So that would make you complicit in Israel's lies. Under the circumstances, it's quite obvious that you are the one with the closed mind. If your mind was open, you would also wish to see the release of the rest of the evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves. They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time." That just is not true. Any deliveries are only made after the Israelis have removed a whole range of essential items, according to some insane list of what isn't allowed. Medical equipment, building materials - even stuff like jam and various types of sweets. Though I see that they have now offered to allow jam and potato chips and a few items like this into Gaza, having banned them for years... ................ It is nonsense to call the behaviour of people resisting an attack by armed intruders "unprovoked violence". If an Israeli boat were boarded in international waters by an armed force of opponents would any sane person describe it as "unprovoked violence" if they laid about the intruders with everything they had to hand? It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack - though the history of non-violence, in Israel, as well as in places like India in the time of Gandhi, apartheid South Africa, the Jim Crow American South and elsewhere is that you can still get killed, especially if you are making any progress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM Yes, that's a good point, Lox. The way he phrased it really doesn't apply to any of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Lox Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM "Lox ... you just know that Israelis can only do bad things" I see that Keith A, famous impartial critic, has run out of actual arguments, so he is reduced to: 1: Pigeon holing his opponents into one lump. 2: Inventing opinons for them collectively (in this case one I don't hold) 3: Reasserting his version of the 'facts' despite serious doubt beinbg cast on them. Your stubbornesss and obtuseness bely your lack of neutrality Keith. Your personal slander marks you out as being full of shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire. I'm willing to let an expert make that determination because I care about the truth. How about you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious. If the Israelis weren't so regularly caught lying and committing all kinds of libels on other people, we might see it differently. The government of Israel has repeatedly been caught lying about the people in the flotilla and about what happened. If they weren't doing bad things, they would have no reason to lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM "They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves." NO Keith they do NOT! They have stated unabiguously that NONE of the banned and desperately required items like cenent and batteries for wheelchairs will be allowed in If you want to know what Israelis can do with all the cement that WILL NOT be going to Gaza - take a look at a video on yopu tube of illegal settlers pouring cement into springs used by Palestinians! |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship. Roberto, you're the one who set the tone. I'm not playing lawyer with Angela Lano. The charge of anti-Semitism is regularly used by people defending Israel who want to discredit people in order to silence them. We can see quite a bit of it right here in this thread. If this wasn't such a regular practice, people like me might be a bit less skeptical when we see people making that accusation. So let me ask you this, then... do you support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, or do you support the right of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homes during the Nakba to return to their areas of origin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Ed T Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM Summary of this argument....errr contridiction.....errr, abuse thread: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!! Yes, but I came here for an argument!! OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse! Oh look, this isn't an argument! Yes it is! No it isn't! It's just contradiction! No it isn't! It IS! It is NOT! You just contradicted me! No I didn't! You DID! No no no! You did just then! Nonsense! I came here for a good argument! AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument! An argument isn't just contradiction. Well! it CAN be! No it can't! An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. No it isn't! Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction. Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position! Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'. Yes it is! No it isn't! Yes it is! No it isn't! Yes it is! No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. It is NOT! It is! Not at all! It is Not Quotes:Thanks to the Monty Python Argument Clenic team (AKA, "Mudcat New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid" Argument Clenic) Just an observation, not an argument, contradiction or abuse statement :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM If it were possible to have a filter to remove the person to person skirmishing, this would,be a much shorter thread, but a much more meaningful one. The best thing to do when we feel attacked or insulted, rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, is to ignore it, and carry on with dealing with the actual issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Roberto Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Emma B Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM In the Jerusalem Dispatch on June 1st it was reported that "The soldiers thought they would encounter Bilin-style violence" What is Bilin? "Bil'in is a Palestinian village that is struggling to exist. It is fighting to safeguard its land, its olive trees, its resources… its liberty. By annexing close to 60% of Bil'in land for Israeli settlements and the construction of Israel's separation wall, the state of Israel is strangling the village. Every day it destroys a bit more, creating an open air prison for Bil'in's inhabitants. Supported by Israeli and international activists, Bil'in residents peacefully demonstrate every Friday in front of the "work-site of shame". And every Friday the Israeli army responds with violence, both physically and psychologically" Bilin a village of Palestine On the 17th of April last year Bassem Abu Rahme was killed in Bil'in He was shot with new kind of tear gaz canisters (The Rocket). He was shot in his chest which lead to his death immediately. The high velocity tear-gas projectile, labeled "40 mm bullet, special/long range" in Hebrew has also critically injured American national, Tristan Anderson at a demonstration in Ni'lin on 13 March 2009 when he was shot in the head from 60 meters. He participated in the weekly protest and was standing in the other side of the wall, and was shouting at the soldiers "we are in a nonviolent protest, there are kids and internationals" he couldn't continue his scrim and was shot. He was transferred to Ramallah governmental hospital, but he was dead Basem Abu Rahme is the 18th individual to be killed by Israeli forces during a demonstration against the Wall. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question? I would also like to say that every time the government of Israel has been proven to be lying, the proof has vindicated what the passengers were saying. So not only does the government of Israel have a proven track record of lying, the passengers on the flotilla have a proven track record of telling the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM 1000 |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM And to follow up McGrath's post, here is video evidence that Israeli soldiers deliberately aim for the head with their tear gas cannisters... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv1DZNn39O8 |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question? I disbelieve everything that is said by the Israelis because they are always proven to be lying and because they refuse to release the rest of the video evidence. And I believe the people on the flotilla because I am a part of their movement and I know what they are about. The new video. It shows no firing of anything from the boats. No sign of anything coming at the ship, and passengers do not appear concerned. We see no injured people at all. You can hear the sounds of things hitting the ship. You can also see one exploded paint pellet on a wall on the ship. You can hear many sounds of explosions and things hitting the ship that are coming from the helicopters. You can see many injured passengers. You don't see them before the Israelis landed because the person with the camera was not in the area that was being fired upon. At least not in the part that we saw. We don't know what is on the rest of the video. We do see the ladder with red liquid running down the bulkhead, and the sound of probable shots. Can we be sure it is in time sequence? You would challenge that from the other side. I have no doubt that experts could make this determination. I would encourage the people involved to have the video examined by experts. There is no sign of shooting from the helicopter. You can hear the sound of shooting from the helicopter. The commentary in your first video spoke of nothing but cannisters. No explosions or incoming fire mentioned. Why not? Keith, as you can see, the correspondents are not on the part of teh ship where the shooting is taking place. They are not able to take the live feed there for several reasons, one being that the equipment is set up there were they are. And events are happening too fast for them to be able to keep up. My boat video must be pre landing because the boat is not visible in the landing sequence, and would be. The firecrackers/stun grenades explode in the boat. There is no evidence that they came from the boat, and it makes no sense. Likewise the plates. Keith, your video shows only a very small portion of the water next to the ship. To think that you know what is outside the field of vision of the camera is pretty ridiculous. The passengers said that they were throwing back into the boats things that had been fired into the ship. I am calling for all video evidence to be released by the government of Israel. You can not say that we don't know it exists, because the existence of smuggled footage proves that the journalists are telling the truth when they say they were filming and photographing what was happening, and that it was confiscated. That, and the Israeli government has been selectively releasing some of the footage itself, so it can't deny it exists. I call for all of the video evidence to be released and to be examined by experts. On the other hand, you have already decided that the government of Israel is telling the truth even though they have already been caught in numerous lies and have been forced to retract many of the things they've said about the flotilla members and about what happened that night. You are willing to accept, without question, the word of proven liars. I am demanding that all of the evidence be released and examined by experts. Between the two of us, I am the only one who is interested in the truth. Re. Indian Ocean pirates, they could fly all the flags in the world and they would still be boarded without asking their permission. This is speculation, and not fact. Please cite to me the law that would permit such boardings, and what criteria govern what ships that sail under the flag of a country may be forcibly boarded and for what reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM "Sling shots with pebbles are also as dangerous as paintballs." But not as dangerous as "tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns" which the Israelis were carrying. Still deciding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM With all this stuff about how canisters and such like fired at people aren't anything to worry about,here is a reminder of a story about something like that which has been posted in this thread, but hasn't got too much attention in the media - Peace activist, Emily Henochowicz, loses eye after being shot with tear gas "Emily was "hit in the face with a tear gas projectile fired directly at her by an Israeli soldier during the demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint today." Sören Johanssen, a Swedish activist standing beside Henochowicz, reported that, "They fired many canisters at us in rapid succession. One landed on either side of Emily, then the third one hit her in the face."" Of course she didn't get hit by a bullet, so that's all right... |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM "If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East," Israel is a highly militarised, terrorist state which has persistently used its military might in pursuit of an expansionist policy. Through its persistant disregard for human rights and international law it has done more damage to the Jewish people than has been done by any dedicated anti-Semite organisation since the end of W.W.2. "If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel..." This is basing the existance of a state on a 2000 year old myth and, carried to its logical conclusion, would justify any demand to returning of the USA to the Native Americans, New Zealand to the Maori people and Australia to...... where would you like to call a halt? "If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country," The Nazi Party were elected democratically - how you attain power is only a part of the picture, how you use it when you have it is what counts. The only anti Semitism to appear on this thread has been in the imaginations of those spineless enough to resort to the blackmail tactic of "agree with me or I'll call you an anti-Semite". You have my gratitude - reading your prescriptive list explains perfectly where Israel is coming from. The whingeing and snivelling about paint-bomb guns, fire works or who fired first is totally beside the point. Israeli troops committed an act of piracy on the high seas, they killed (possibly executed) unarmed or poorly armed non combatants who were well within their legal rights in offering resistance. In the past they have been guilty of slaughtering civilians, buldozing homes, using chemical weapons and ghettoising citizens in order to annex their land - war crimes, no less. I suppose this make me (along with the vast majority of the democratic, free-thinking world) an anti-Semite. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed? Show me some proof of this, beardedbruce, and not from a zionist website. It has to come from websites that represent the governments you are accusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM "Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity. " Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel? Yes or no: Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM In this video, you can hear shots coming from the boats, and you can hear explosions and impacts coming from the helicopter before the Israels have descended and while they are descending. This is a short clip from an hour long video that was smuggled out by one of the passengers. She is releasing the rest of the video at the UN today... http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/6/10/the_images_they_didnt_want_seen_video_and_photographs_from_on_board_the_mavi_marmara |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinians to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews. Who on earth is supposed to have said that, anyway? After 2,000 years that right of return is somewhat reduced, as it would be for any of us, in respect of wherever it was our ancestors were living at that time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel? Yes or no: |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews. beardedbruce, you have repeatedly asked me if I support the right of Jews to return to where they were fleeing from during war, and I have repeatedly said that I do. So if you are including me in this blanket statement, you are lying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind). Hate sites use material without permission from the authors all the time. You said he left because of anti-Semitism. I want to see some evidence of that before I form a judgment, and if so, I also want to see evidence that Ms. Lano is one of the people he objected to. I am not operating on faith at all in this context. I have not formed a judgment one way or another. But I have seen far too many specious and venal accusations of anti-Semitism (some of them even leveled at me) being used to falsely discredit people and silence dissent, to accept such accusations without evidence. You show me the evidence and I will join you in your condemnations of Ms. Lano. Until then, I refuse to form any judgments one way or the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: Roberto Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind). |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM By the way, more and more video is being released by people who were able to smuggle it out undetected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: CarolC Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM John on the Sunset Coast, I would characterize you as being supremacist on the basis that you support privileging one ethnic/religious group over all others in Israel. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers at others for any reason. And any accusations of anti-Semitism from you are not credible and are hypocritical. If you don't support equal rights for everyone, and if you support one set of rules for one religion/ethnicity, and another set of rules for other religions/ethnicities, you are a racists and a supremacist. It is not anti-Semitic for those of us who are paying for what Israel is doing to focus on that. And you are lying when you say that we focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other countries who are also committing human rights abuses. This thread is about Israel. Those of us who are criticizing Israel in this thread also criticize other governments in other threads. You need to paint us as anti-Semites because you are trying to defend the indefensible, and you are supporting racism and supremacism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM John, You are approaching this from a logical point, based on reality. This is where you are wrong: Many here have no interest in reality, just their own view ( shall I say propaganda) about what THEY think should have happened. I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews. And I doubt many have read the 1921 and 1923 treaties ( which set the last boundries that the Arab states accepted) that they ignore in asking for the 1967 boundries, which the Arab nations did not accept. |
