BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM

http://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Media-Hide-Evidence-Di-by-Dave-Lindorff-100606-487.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:43 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:31 PM

Invitation to join the next aid convoy!


Galloway announces new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza

Speaking at a demonstration in London on 5th June which organisers estimated to be more than 20,000 strong, George Galloway announced new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza.

"After extensive discussion in Istanbul," said Galloway, "I can announce that a land convoy will leave Britain shortly after the end of Ramadan in September this year and travel through Europe, down through Turkey and Syria into Jordan. We will ask the Egyptian government then to ensure passage from the port of Aqaba to Rafah and into Gaza.

"At exactly the same time a flotilla of boats will be leaving to tour the countries of the Mediterranean before heading for Gaza.

"These combined sea and land convoys will be co-coordinated by Viva Palestina with other organisations in Britain and with our friends throughout the Middle East and in Turkey.


VIVA PALESTINA!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

Nice try, Ed. But it is you who were trying to turn a defense into an offense when you asked me that question in the first place.

But I take your lack of a real answer to be an answer in the affirmative. You do not see Palestinians as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM

Can one actually have it both ways, by citing the UN and its directives when it suites a cause, and ignore it, when it does't.
Is this an example of logic one should pay much heed to?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

Sorru, CarolC your attempts at turning a defense into an offense, makes no sense at all:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?


The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.


CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.

This question says a lot about you. Because you are defending the actions of the government that is killing the largest number of people. So let me ask you... does the deaths of the many thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by Israel have so little significance that you can't even acknowledge them?

Think about it for a minute. You appear to be totally unconcerned with the many thousands Palestinians who have been killed, and you want us only to think about much smaller number of Israelis who have been killed.

What I am saying is that it is an enormous double standard to say that we can't recognize Hamas because they have killed some Israelis, while we are not only recognizing the Israeli government, but we (me and my fellow US taxpayers) are paying the government of Israel enormous amounts of money every year and also giving them our diplomatic assistance.

If you think this state of affairs is acceptable, it can only be because you do not see Palestinians as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

"...its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter."

Big deal. Scottish independence or Irish reunification would mean the "destruction" of the Member State of the United Nations known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

James Henry Dominic Miller (18 December 1968 - 2 May 2003)

was a Welsh cameraman, producer, and director, and recipient of numerous awards, including five Emmy Awards.
He often worked with Saira Shah with whom he founded and operated an independent production company called Frostbite Productions in 2001. He was killed by a single shot fired by a soldier from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on 2 May 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah. The soldier who shot him was identified in the press as Captain Hib al-Heib.

The Israeli Military Police investigation into Miller's death closed on 9 March 2005 with an announcement that the soldier suspected of firing the shot would not be indicted as they could not establish that his shot was responsible, though he would be disciplined for violating the rules of engagement and for changing his account of the incident.
On 6 April 2006, the inquest jury at St Pancras Coroner's Court in London returned a verdict of unlawful killing, finding that Miller had been "murdered."

After meetings with the Miller family, the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, sent a formal request to his Israeli counterpart in June 2007 for prosecution proceedings to be enacted within six weeks against the soldier responsible for firing the shot

Miller's sister, Anne Waddington, was interviewed by the BBC on the morning of 7 August 2007, the day the six-week deadline was due to expire. She said, "Unfortunately, we have had four and a half extremely painful years of experiencing the Israeli tactics, and they are the masters of delay - they have always played for time, and they have always failed to deliver." She added, "The Israelis put out a lot of false and misleading statements immediately after my brother was murdered, and they did try to suggest he was killed by a Palestinian in the back and as a result of crossfire, but they put out many, many lies and false stories, which of course have been shown not only on the APTN video footage of the actual murder, but also through eyewitness testimony and the additional evidence which was very, very clear at the time." Asked whether she used the word "murder" very deliberately, she replied, "Yes I do, and of course the jury in the inquest last year found, very unusually, that it wasn't just unlawful killing, it was actually murder



Thomas "Tom" Hurndall (27 November 1981 – 13 January 2004)

was a British photography student, a volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. On 11 April 2003, he was shot in the head in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) sniper, Taysir Hayb. Hurndall was left in a coma and died nine months later.

The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire, and suggested that his group's members were essentially functioning as human shields.[citation needed] However, witnesses at the demonstration in the Palestinian town of Rafah said he had been hit by a rifle bullet while trying to shield the children rather than having been merely hit in the crossfire, and Hurndall's parents demanded an investigation

Idier Wahid Taysir Hayb (or al-Heib), whose sister Amira al Hayb is the first female Bedouin soldier in the IDF, claimed, he had shot at a man in military fatigues although photographic evidence clearly showed Hurndall was wearing a bright orange jacket denoting he was a foreigner. Hayb was an award-winning marksman and his rifle had a telescopic sight. He claimed to have aimed four inches from Hurndall's head, "but he moved". Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time

Tom Hurndall's family and their legal team were denied access to the military police report which led to the trial. After an appeal to the Israeli Supreme Court, the state prosecution offered access to the report to the legal team, but not the Hurndall family, in early August. According to a spokesman for the Tom Hurndall Foundation, this will allow them to decide whether Hayb could be indicted for the more serious charge of murder, and to find out if responsibility for Hurndall's death lies higher up the chain of command
Tom's mother Jocelyn Hurndall wrote a commentary in The Guardian on 10 January 2004, in which she stated:
It seems that life is cheap in the occupied territories. Different value attached to life depends on whether the victim happens to be Israeli, international or Palestinian


Brian Avery (born 1979)

is a former American volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), who was shot in the face and seriously disfigured on April 5, 2003 while working for the ISM in the West Bank town of Jenin.

According to the Jerusalem Post (9/20/07; 11/19/08), Brian and his associates were "wearing red reflector vests with the word "doctor" in English and Arabic." Avery was hit in the face, his cheek was torn and his eye socket and jaw bones were smashed. The army refused to order a formal investigation of the incident, since that their probe found that no soldiers on patrol in the area that night reported such an incident as it
was described by the four witnesses
Avery appeared before the Israeli Supreme Court on February 28, 2005 to request a criminal investigation into his shooting. He accused Israeli troops of shooting him without provocation. The court responded by ordering the military to reopen Avery's case. Avery's attorney, Michael Sfard, said that the ruling "shows the military that even internal inquiries should be managed professionally and with care to get testimony from all sides, not just from military
In November 2008, Avery accepted a settlement for NIS 600,000 (USD $150,000) from the state of Israel in exchange for dropping the lawsuit. According to Shlomo Lecker, his Israeli lawyer, "The sum does not reflect the injuries Avery suffered... On the other hand, it's one of the very few times the state has awarded damages to anyone hurt by the IDF during the Second Intifada." Lecker said that Avery was willing to settle because of the need to defray some of the costs of the reconstructive operations he must still undergo, in addition to skepticism that the 15-month-long investigation would ever reach a satisfactory conclusion

There was a very moving interview with Tom Hurndall's parents on UK radio earlier today

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?

CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Suit yourself, robomatic. Write your own history of the world if you want to. But pull up a chair and get yourself some popcorn. You're going to need it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM

Yes, that's a very good point, Lox.

If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns

They are already standing in front of the tanks and guns and getting killed and maimed by the Israeli military in disturbingly high numbers. Lox mentioned Rachel Corrie. She is only the most well known of the human rights workers who have been deliberately killed or maimed by the Israeli military. There are many others. You really need to crawl out of that hole in which you appear to be hiding, John, and take a look around at what is really happening.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM

Don't forget that the Palestinians are ALSO in THEIR ancetral homeland.

And SOME Indians have managed to regain control of 'homelands'. Us pesky Europeans be damned. I wish they could get MORE back!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

The Israelis are in their ancestral homeland therefore it's as if the Indians were able to reclaim their lands and yet had to deal with them pesky European squatters. The squatters found some guy in a university who reckoned that yes, the Indians after hundreds of years of displacement and resettlement had done some race-mixing therefore they were no longer Indians how dare they yet the Indians knew all along who they were and where they belonged and acted accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:22 PM

John,

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!"

1. 9 people died on the Mavi Marmara, so to describe them as taking a sea cruise with a guaranteed safe flight home is ignorant crap.

2. The flotilla and the IDF action against it has brought more publicity to the region than thousands of dead palestinians have managed to.

In fact, the more palestinians who die, the more the west becomes numb to it.

3. The ship "Rachel Corrie" is named after a young american girl who stood in front of a bulldozer, only for the driver to deliberately drive over her.

Guess how much international impact this had?

None.

So to recap, The flotilla is proving to be the most effewctive protest yet, and 2, your cmments about Bandwagons are ignorant crap.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

Roberto, Israeli 'historians' have re-written history: "All of the Europeans and Americans who profess the Jewish religion have roots in the Palestinian region."

Perhaps it is time for natives of UK to throw out those Normans and others who have no right to be there.
And time for North American indigenous peoples to don warpaint again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

robomatic, I'd like to underline this sentence in T. L. Friedman's article: "I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

The United Nations, on Hamas and the incitement (of hate) and to commit genocide against Israel, Judaism and Jews:

"With the Hamas Charter now binding the Palestinian leadership, its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter. Article 3 (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention condemns "direct and public incitement to commit genocide," which is punishable under its article 4. The grave situation in Gaza – and not only in Gaza – is linked to the Hamas Charter of religious and racial hatred, which merits debate at the Human Rights Council as soon as possible".
United Nations, HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL, First special session
5 July 2006

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F35F56D79C729663852571CA006C0F4E

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

John, the people for whom it is a life and death situation are the people in Gaza who are dying because of the blockade.

The government of Israel assumes these people won't be taken seriously at their peril. They have pissed off the whole world. Their days are numbered.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

Bandwagon jumpers cannot hope to be taken seriously. It's a life or death situation, not a stroll down 5th Avenue.
If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this last flotilla contained several members of parliament, including European members of parliament, and also at least two Nobel Prize winners, and a veteran of the USS Liberty who was wounded in Israel's attack on that ship. And there were also popular media people and authors. These are not people who can easily be characterized the way the Israeli government has tried to characterize them, and the people from their home countries are not only pissed off that they were attacked by the Israeli terrorists in the first place, but they are pissed off even more about the Israeli government's libels against them. It is the Israeli government's arrogance that will ultimately cause its destruction. Because of what happened this last time, the number of people who are extremely eager to participate in future flotillas has skyrocketed. This, despite the fact that they know they risk their lives if they do so.

It's all over but the shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

All of these criteria fit, Ed.

In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

someone with some sense weighs in. . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Ballgame and the Sideshow
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 4, 2010

When I covered the 1982 Lebanon war, I learned something surprising about wars: they attract all kinds of spectators, meddlers, do-gooders and do-badders. They use the conflict and the attention it generates to play out their own identity issues, passions and biases. My favorite in Beirut was a gentleman who showed up in August 1982 as the Palestinian guerrillas were sailing out of Beirut harbor. His name — I am not making this up — was Arthur Blessitt, the "Sunset Boulevard Preacher." He had walked to West Beirut from Israel to pray for peace, dragging a 13-foot-long wooden cross with a little wheel on the bottom.


Arthur was harmless; some of the others, though, were mendacious, which prompted me to promulgate this rule: I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends. Their grandstanding interventions — like those blockade-busters sailing to Gaza or the wealthy American Jews who fund extremist settlers' housing purchases in Arab East Jerusalem — often fuel the worst trends on either side and divert our energies from the only thing that is important: forging a two-state solution.

So is there anything good happening in that regard? Yes. The effort by the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the institutional foundations of a Palestinian state from the ground up — replacing the corrupt, jerry-built structure that Yasir Arafat created and Israel destroyed — is actually making progress. This matters — and must be nurtured.

You see, there are two models of Arab governance. The old Nasserite model, which Hamas still practices, where leaders say: "Judge me by how I resist Israel or America." And: "First we get a state, then we build the institutions." The new model, pioneered in the West Bank by Abbas and Fayyad is: "Judge me by how I perform — how I generate investment and employment, deliver services and pick up the garbage. First we build transparent and effective political and security institutions. Then we declare a state. That is what the Zionists did, and it sure worked for them."

The most important thing going on in this conflict today is that since 2007 the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and the U.S. have partnered to train a whole new West Bank Palestinian security force in policing, administration and even human rights. The program is advised by U.S. Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton — one of the unsung good guys. The Israeli Army has become impressed enough by the performance of the new Palestinian National Security Force, or N.S.F., under Abbas and Fayyad that those forces are now largely responsible for law and order in all the major West Bank towns, triggering an explosion of Palestinian building, investment and commerce in those areas.

Here are highlights: the Jordanians have trained and the Palestinian Authority deployed and equipped five N.S.F. battalions and one Presidential Guard unit, some 3,100 men. Plus, 65 Palestinian first-responders have been trained and are being equipped with emergency gear. A Palestinian National Training Center, with classrooms and dorms, is nearing completion in Jericho so the Palestinians themselves can take over the training. The Palestinian Authority is building a 750-man N.S.F. camp to garrison the new N.S.F. troops — including barracks, gym and parade ground — near Jenin. At the same time, the Palestinian security headquarters are all being rebuilt in every major Palestinian town, starting in Hebron. An eight-week senior leadership training course in Jericho — bringing together the Palestinian police, the N.S.F. and Presidential Guards — has graduated 280 people, including 20 women.

A course for captains and below in how to handle everything from crowd control to elections has also begun. The reinvigorated Palestinian Ministry of Interior is leading the Palestinian security sector transformation, and the Canadians are helping to set up Joint Operations Centers across the West Bank so all Palestinian security services can coordinate via video conferencing. The Canadians are also helping the Palestinians to build a logistics center. Parallel with all this, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has reduced Israel's manned checkpoints in the West Bank from 42 to 12.

This won't be politically sustainable for Abbas and Fayyad, though, unless Israel begins to turn full authority over to the Palestinians for their major cities — so-called area A — in the West Bank. Palestinians have to see their new security services as building their state, not cushioning Israel's occupation. There could be a moment of truth here for Israel soon, but at least it will be based on something real.

In sum, this dynamic — Palestinians building real institutions from the ground up and getting Israel to cede to them real authority — is the ballgame. Make it work across the West Bank and find a way to transfer it to Gaza (how about reopening the Israel-Gaza border and letting the new Palestinian N.S.F. control the passages to Israel?) and a two-state solution is possible. Let it fail, and we'll have endless conflict. Everything else is just a sideshow.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would not give a direct answer, nor clearify his statement on Israel, when questioned in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

"Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East – 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza – what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

"Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

"A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

"Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

"A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...

"Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

"the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic". That's a good one, LOL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM

Ok, another definition below. It still does not fit:

Resolution 260 (III) United Nations:
Article 2
In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

When it is asserted that all criticism of Israel is "antisemitic", the implication is that Jews everywhere are to be identified with Israel.

The implication of that is that Jews everywhere are responsible for the actions of Israel.

And that is very clearly an antisemitic lie.

In other words, the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM

Legal, as decided by whom?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

The legal definition of genocide is quite different from that one, Ed. That's another thing I have posted here numerous times.

What Israel is doing in Gaza fits the legal definition of genocide. I don't have time now, but I will provide the documentation later on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

Jim Carroll posted:

"I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army".

"Genocide"-The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Free online dictionary


In a recent issue of Foreign Affairs....it said that the number of Jews around the world is estimated at 13.1 million, of which 5.4 million live in Israel proper and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

The total number of Palestinians is estimated at 10.6 million, including 1.4 million in Israel proper, 3.8 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 2.4 million in Jordan, and 3 million in Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere around the world. (some say that, "by all definitions, 70 percent of Jordon's citizens are Arab Palestinians).

Thus, the overall population in historical Palestine is estimated at 10.6 million, of which 49 percent are Arabs and 51 percent Jews.

I agree, there is alot of very loose of terms (aka crap) and sensational statements on this tread, and it is good to identify it as such, when and where the brown stuff is posted....though it may not be popular by those wishing to spread it among the faithful:)


Source for figures above:

By all definitions, 70 percent of its citizens are Arab Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

"I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way."
So far the only anti-Semitism to appear on this thread has been the accusations of same in postings such as this one.
Once again CarolC said it all - perhaps you would like to be a little more specific in your accusation.
As somebody who grew up in an anti-racist household I find myself highly contemptuous of chancers who use such accusations to defend the indefencible.
And I would like an answer to my previous question (regarding 40 odd years occupation of Palestinian land) - but I don't suppose I'll get one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nobody here has said anything that can be remotely construed as an attack on Jews or an expression of hatred towards Jews (with one possible exception that skirts rather close to the line). But Ed is once again making insinuations that people are because of the criticism of the government of Israel in this thread.

So which is it, Ed? Is criticism of the government of Israel an act anti-Semitism? Because if you're saying it is, then you are saying that there is no difference between the government of Israel and Jews generally. You are saying that whatever the government of Israel does is a reflection on all Jews. Do you really intend to make this assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM

Well, hell, McGrath, if they want to defend Israel from Hamas, I guess they're going to have to prevent any food from getting in, since that can be used to feed members of Hamas and keep them alive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

"Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?"

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

How about tins of fruit and musical instruments and bags of cement?

A ban on the import of any weapons or explosives to Gaza, the West Bank and also to Israel, now that would make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM

Here's more pictures of aid workers providing protection and care to the Israeli terrorist pirates. But instead of recognizing these conscientious humanitarian acts, the government of Israel accuses them of trying to "lynch" the Israeli terrorists and saying that they tried to kidnap them when the aid workers took them below decks to provide first aid...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho


The government of Israel ALWAYS lies. It ALWAYS commits vicious smarmy character assassinations to help it promote its fascist agenda. ALWAYS. The government of Israel can NEVER be believed. Not EVER.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM

John, more and more flotillas will come, and they will get bigger and bigger, and more and more people will be on them. Every time Israel stops the flotillas, they piss off more and more people. They can't win. It's over already, the only people who haven't yet figured this out are the Israeli government and its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

"I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians......."
Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?
Now how do you feel about the Israelis occupying Palestinian territory for 40-odd years?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

They will still be stopped, they need to check for weapons and explosives.
Israel cannot afford to let explosives disguised as bags of sugar and the like into Gaza.
It has happened before.
BTW it is legal to stop a ship in international waters, if you have good reason to suspect they are smuggling weapons or explosives.
So it isn't technically piracy, as someone said it is, earlier.
I agree that things need to improve, but you need less intransigence on BOTH sides for any peace plan to work.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

More aid flotillas are on the way. According to reports I'm seeing, one is supposed to leave next Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

More theft from the Palestinians by the government of Israel...


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/06/05/poor-gaza-wealthy-in-natural-gas/

"Why the slaughter of ready and willing to die, dirt poor Palestinians?

It appears the Freedom Flotilla sailing to Gaza would go through a thicket of off shore oil and gas rigs and wells. The wells are sucking an estimated minimum of US$6 Billion Dollars of Palestinian off shore Natural Gas through rigs set up for slant drilling.

From Peter Eyre The Palestine Telegraph Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:29 EDT

The drilling consultant on the hidden project is the former Noble Drilling Company of Ardmore, Oklahoma, USA, experts in "oil field management." They are also allegedly experts in illegal slant drilling techniques Noble pioneered in the early Oklahoma oil fields back in the day.

Slant drilling is the best way to steal your neighbors' oil and gas.

So much so that the formerly oil and gas poor Israel of Prime Minister Golda Meir is now floating the idea of Natural Gas exports to the European Union (EU) of presumably Palestinian Natural Gas."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That's nice Ed. In case you misunderstood my post, I was saying that it is the height of dishonesty on the part of the government of Israel and it shows an agenda on the part of the government of Israel that has nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety. Those comments were not directed at you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

""I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.""

Very laudable in itself, and I would, in principle, subscribe to that view, just as long as it is not being used as a cop-out to avoid addressing specific incidents, such as government sponsored piracy and murder on the high seas.

Captain Morgan would have been so impressed.

I however am not, and I shall continue to say so very loudly, until somebody makes a move to control the international actions of the ISRAELI (not Jewish) GOVERNMENT.

I will purchase nothing grown in, manufactured in, or shipped from, Israel, until they mend their ways.

I hope that there will be many millions more like me.

Let's see what their response is to their oranges rotting in the fields.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

I have actually seen this Facebook group's page myself...

An israeli group on Facebook asks for the execution of the M.K Haneen Zoabi

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM

I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

What that last picture shows is the need for Israel to release all of the pictures and video footage that were taken by the flotilla members. Anything short of that is an admission of guilt on the part of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Flotilla passengers providing aid to wounded Israeli pirate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

I don't think the actual statement is any reason whatever to try to convince the world that Iran is any threat whatever to Israel. To do so is the height of dishonesty, and it shows that Israel has its own reasons for wanting to eliminate the current regime in Iran that have nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

""The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour.""

Then they should have no difficulty in accepting Hamas' assurances that the primitive rockets, devoid of any guidance mechanism, which randomly impact mostly on empty fields in Israel, are being fired by a small number of militants over whom Hamas has no oversight or control.

After all, what's sauce for the goose,...........

Don T.