BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero

Subject: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

I feel impelled to say that I admire Obama for his exemplary analysis of the right-wing backlash about the proposed Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:47 PM

Obama is doing what all canny politicians do...isn't he
Playing to his base, he could hardly say anything else without committing political suicide.

I wonder what his secretary of State's real views are on the matter!

Personally I think it is the supreme act of insensitivity on the part of the leaders of Islam in America.

It's either insensitivity or a wind-up.
In either case permission should have been refused, the authorities are meant to represent the wishes of the people who pay their wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM

Actually, Ake, he could have stayed out of it without committingpolitical suicide, and he copped a good dealof heat for standing up for the principle of equal tolerance.

It is neither an insensitive gesturte or a windup--it was a plan for a community that was underway long before 9-11 and really has nothing to do with terrorism, as far as I know, despie all the knee-jerk reactionary emo's who immediately dive into the belief that "all evil is everywhere and its all the same...".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

It's a bit as if people were objecting to a Catholic Church being built in Oklahoma Citry because Timothy McVeigh was some kind of Catholic - and were being treated as somehow rational, rather than as crazy.

There are plenty of nuts in all countries. But the inmpression comes across that the difference with the USA is that the nuts are seen as mainstream rather than fringe. That is frightening.

At least 60 of the victims killed by the terrorists on 9/11 actually were Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM

He fudged the reasons. He should have said something on the lines of, of course Muslims should have a mosque there, real Muslims aren't anything like the twin towers murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:29 PM

Now that opportunist, Giuliani, has come out against the Muslim center.

Senate majority Reid has broken with Obama, and opposes the cultural center.
The Democrats seem well on the way to losing control of Congress because of their luke-warm support of their president.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM

So far, unless it has happened in the last hour or so and I missed it, Obama has made no comment at all about whether or not that facility should be built where and as proposed. What he has said it that this is a free country and they have a right to do so if they wish.

Actually, it was something over 300 Muslims in the Towers, and at least a couple as passengers on the planes. I really don't think anyone here sees the nuts as mainstream (except their fellow nuts), but the far right controls most of the more strident media outlets.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM

LISTEN to the man.

And, also:

From Huffington Post:


Your request is being processed...

Matt Sledge

Just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero?

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House.


From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.

If you look up the walking directions you'll notice that it takes a couple of minutes to walk the distance (approximately a tenth of a mile) between the two spots. Pretty much two minutes exactly when I took the trip with a shaky video camera. Here's the clip, first sped up to 4X speed then slowed down to 1X:


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

    There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.


I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:02 PM

"Now that opportunist, Giuliani, has come out against the Muslim center. Senate majority Reid has broken with Obama, and opposes the cultural center."

People like that sound pretty mainstream. Even assuming that they are insincere about it, rather than true believers, it still rather seems to indicate that the nuts are seen by significant politicians as being the dominant force in American elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM

Google Maps will take you to the site of the proposed Cordoba House. You'll notice there are several churches in the area, so why not a Muslim center? As the article above says, the site is on a side street, a couple of blocks from the World Trade Center site. It's a stretch of the imagination to relate the site to the World Trade Center at all, so it appears to me that somebody is manufacturing an issue out of this to make political hay.
And now that they've made such a fuss about it, this is probably no longer a good place for a Muslim center, because people are bound to make a target of it. This is an injustice to a Muslim community that has done admirable work toward peace, reconciliation, and understanding. This who have made such a big problem by opposing this center should be ashamed of themselves. The fuss they've made is very close to inciting violence.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM

There are some questions.
Why is this site so important? I believe that other less sensitive but nearby sites have been offered and rejected.
Is there a good reason?
Why is it to be called Cordoba?
Is it a coincidence that a mosque was built on the site of a cathedral in Cordoba when Muslims defeated the Christians there?
And, is it funded by Saudis?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:00 PM

It's called Cordoba because Cordoba's in Spain, which used to be Catholic, and the IRA are Catholic, when they aren't being vice-versa. The conspiracies get everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

The site is important, I understand, because the developers want it to be close to where the people who will use it live and work. There is already an actual mosque (which this is not) within 5 blocks of the World Trade Center (which is a very large piece of property). I haven't heard that any other site has been offered so far. There have been discussions of some sort of a swap, perhaps for state-owned property, but no specific location has yet been identified. Whether the community will be compensated for any difference in value hasn't, as far as I know, been mentioned by anyone.

The cathedral in Cordoba was "built" basically by ripping out the middle of the Great Mosque of Cordoba after the Christians defeated the Muslims there in 1236. The mosque, in its turn, was constructed on the site of a Christian church when the Umayyads conquered the Visigoths, who were mostly pagan. Wiki says the Muslims bought the property...I have no interest in researching this.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

"This is an injustice to a Muslim community that has done admirable work toward peace, reconciliation, and understanding."

This is hopefully a reference to the local peaceful New York City Muslim community and not the other one who do suicide bombings and behead people?

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:25 PM

This analysis was released on MSNBC ages ago.


Analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:26 PM

I don't know that the site was so important to the Muslims until the detractors decided to make an issue of it. It is, however, one of the better sites for a religious building in Lower Manhattan - and there are lots and lots of other churches in the area to prove the point. If you go a few blocks north, you get into an out-of-the way district where nobody goes, and there's not enough sidewalk traffic to make people feel safe. To the south and east and west are skyscrapers full of offices and condominiums, not really conducive to a religious center. The buildings on Park Place are of moderate size (and probably moderate expense). I think the choice would be to stay out of lower Manhattan altogether - maybe that's what the opponents want.
In short, the building in question is an insignificant building on an out-of-the way side street. It isn't an "important" site at all, which is why I wonder why people are making such a fuss about it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM

Ignorance and bigotry are alive and well, not only in the U. S., but in Europe, Asia, wherever dissimilar peoples and religions rub against each other.
A poll taken across the United States shows a majority against building the cultural center at the site, long owned by Muslims.
A CNN program this evening gave an hour's time to an interview with a fundamentalist Christian 'leader' who hates the Muslim religion (it does not recognize that Jesus Christ died for our sins, etc.). The media seem intent on increasing discord.

Belgium is badly split on language-religion; it may not be long before the country separates.
The Netherlands has its problems; the area around Maastricht has nothing in common with say, Rotterdam, and bigoted comment about one or the other is common.
The Roma are being thrown out of France, and they are not wanted in the Romanian-Bulgarian area from which they migrated.
Talk of a Catalan nation is largely talk, but there are many in intellectual circles desirous of and working toward 'home rule'.

The U. S. will build two $100 million centers (forts?) whose purpose is to keep Kurds and Iraqis from conflict with each other.
Turkey and adjacent nations also are trying to keep a damper on Kurds.
China and its peoples in the Northwest clash, the central government keeps them tightly in check.
The Caucasus, Kashmir, the border provinces between Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc., etc. all are in turmoil.

The United Nations takes one step forward and one step back.

It is the nature of the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:35 PM

On Wikipedia.

I believe the controversy was propagated, if not wholly invented, by bigoted busybodies who blame all Muslims for the acts of a small number of extremist terrorists, and think government ought to control where places of worship are built. My guess is a lot of them bitch about 'big government', but I don't know.

I think it's New York State's business. I think a lot of people who have stuck their noses in this come from places a lot less cosmopolitan than NYC, and expect New Yorkers to be as xenophobic and Muslim-hatin' as they are. I think a Muslim cultural center and mosque might, in the LONG run, turn out to be a good, healing thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:45 PM

It was proposed there because the two mosques that are already in the neighbourhood are full to overflowing for Friday prayers, and the worship space in the non-ground-zero non-mosque will help carry the load. (If this is a mosque, then the YMCA up the street that allows Jews to worship in its space is a synagogue. That way madness lies.)

Making an issue about this requires not being able to distinguish between terrorist Muslims and non-terrorist Muslims. It would be like not allowing a church to be built near an abortion clinic where somebody shot the doctor in the name of Christianity, or the site of a murder of a gay person whom somebody murdered in the name of Christianity. It's just prejudice, plain and simple.

This is America. We're supposed to have religious freedom here. Denying somebody the right to build an Islamic Cultural Center (or whatever the right term is here -- "mosque" is the wrong term) wherever they want (within building codes) is part of our freedoms. Taking away freedoms is making us more like the terrorists, not less. It's inane to sink to their level, it's also unamerican and Antichrist-ian.

Interestingly, after the whining of the intolerant right about the name "Cordoba House" it was changed to "Park 51." Yeah, those Muslims are so insensitive to the culture around them. More on that later.

"Ground Zero" is not some kind of holy, take-off-your-shoes ground. And it doesn't sanctify the blocks around it into some kind of hallowed ground, either. Within the same distance from "Ground Zero" there are gay bars, strip clubs, fast food restaurants, boarded-up storefronts, hustlers selling probably-stolen goods on folding tables, and so on. It's a living, working Manhattan neighbourhood. There are churches in the area (further out from the 2 blocks, as I understand it), as well as two mosques.

How much longer must minorities in this country bow to the "sensitivities" of the majority? They just don't know their place, do they? Those uppity Muslims. When the white Christian majority says "this offends our sensitivity" they should go running with their tail between their legs. And if they don't that PROVES they're not moderates, doesn't it? Because only terrorists stand up for their rights in the United States. Everybody else who is faced with inexorable prejudice and hate backs down. Sort of like the Democratic congress. Cowards.

And the president is really in a bind, isn't he? Half the country already thinks he's a Muslim. If he says anything good about Park 51, this confirms it in their eyes. And if he says anything bad, this plays into their hands. He can't win for losing. No wonder he's not coming across as bold and decisive. Although if he were taking advice from me, I'd say stand up for what's right, and fuck the haters. They're going to hate you anyway and NOTHING you do is going to bring them around. So just do what's right and let History judge.

And "sensitivities"? "Bad taste"? Yeah, if you can't get 'em to back down legally, try the guilt-and-shame routine. Dis-fucking-gusting. What's next, violence? A "second amendment" solution?

I'm reminded of the Freedom Riders, who had a right to eat at the lunch counter at the Greyhound bus station, but offended the "sensitivities" of the white racists by so doing. Shall we get truncheons and beat up Muslims who walk past the Burlington Coat Factory? It's the same fucking mindset, except now instead of n*****s, it's Muslims. Dirty uppity Muslims. Don't know their place. I thought we got over that kind of shit in 1964, or at least started moving in the direction of getting over it. The horrible knee-jerk anti-Muslim reaction to this nontroversy is a huge step backwards for this country. It's like the KKK only with G's. The GOP Glux Glenn.

This country is becoming more and more like a prison every day.

Sermon ends.

For those with the ability to laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:49 PM

What people forget is that there were innocent Moslems who died in the world trade centre.

I think the 99.999999999999% of Moslems who aren't terrorists have an equal right to mourn this tragedy and have somewhere to go to pray for the dead.

If Ground Zero is a cemetery then it is a multi faith cemetery including Islam.

Having a different law for Moslems means Discrimination on grounds of religion.


I note that "impartial" and "objective" keith is very quick to back up the case against the Moslems.



There is another interesting perspective of course ...

... It seems that the Simon Weisenthal foundations Director Marvin Hier has been very vocal on this issue on Fox TV expressing "his opposition to the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, because the site of the 9/11 attack "is a cemetery."",

... yet simultaneously, the same foundation is behind the desecration of "some 1,500 Muslim graves [which] have been cleared in several nighttime operations to make way for…..a $100 million Museum of Tolerance and Human Dignity"

Ironic

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:54 PM

"is it funded by saudis"

Is there anything in America that isn't funded by Saudis in some way?

I mean ... let me see if I can think of a prominent figure in America that might be connected with the saudis ...

... I remember ... the whole Bush family!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:54 PM

The Taliban is winnin' right here in the good ol' US of A... Last week it was the 14th Ammendment... This week it's the 1st Ammendment... What next will the right wing Taibaners want??? A return to slavery??? No, better than that... ****Their*** 2nd Ammendment right to fuck up anyone who they don't like... Yeah, that would make these school yard bullies real happy...

Screw Redneck Nation... Send it over to Afganistan to live with their Taliban brothers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:05 PM

On the other hand, because of the stink that has been made, I think the location is no longer a safe place for an Islamic center. The "right thing to do" is to stand up for religious freedom and keep the site, no matter how much security it requires.

But if those who build it, want it to further the cause of peace and reconciliation, what then?

I dunno. To me, it seems like a perfect site for an Islamic center. It's close to the most significant business district in the United States, and it's also close to many, many apartment and condominium homes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Ref
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:10 PM

This whole controversy was ginned up by right wingers looking for red meat with which to stir up their troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM

I, for one, am getting tired of the 20% of the population being able to bully the other 80%... Screw 'um... They are nuthin' but school-yard bullies who, as we saw in the 60s, will stop at nothin' to get their way... It's time to stand up to Redneck Nation!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:22 PM

It doesn't matter what people not building it want -- white people didn't want blacks in their schools in 1964, either. The civil rights of a minority aren't dependent upon what the majority wants them to do. And "they" did not murder any Americans -- the people building this mosque are Sufis, not Wahabbis. The 9/11 attacks were not done by all muslims. They were done by a select group of a particular sect of Islam. Other Muslims are not responsible for their crimes. Just as I am not responsible for the crimes of other Americans, or other whites, or other Christians. Only if you lump all Muslims together, and consider them all evil, can you say "they" murdered Americans, or "they" burn our flag. And that's wrong. "They" are not an undifferentiated mass.

You can't punish all blacks for the crime of some blacks. You can't punish all Irish for the crimes of some Irish. And you can't hold all Muslims responsible for the crimes of some Muslims. It's irrational, and it's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM

Cordova. Toledo. Two great centers of learning under the Muslins and Jews.
In Spain under Muslim rule, the synagogue was close, or in the case of Toledo, part of the same great building as the mosque.
The Weisenthal foundation director doesn't seem to know history.

Both the Muslims and the Jews were kicked out of Spain at one and the same time. Both have faced persecution by Europeans.

The name Cordoba is apt for the cultural center.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM

Quote I saw today: "We've been making ground zeroes near Iraqi mosques since 2003."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

"But if those who build it, want it to further the cause of peace and reconciliation, what then?"

What if they don't? If they give in? What precedent will it set?

If Moslems are to avoid being driven out of every community that feels enfranchised by this dispute, then they must not budge.

Encouraging and affirming ignorance and xenophobia will not lead to peace and reconciliation, but will lead to more self assured lynch mobs.

Peace and reconciliation happen when mutual tolerance and maybe respect are practised.

An interesting point in the Olbermann video I posted above concerns the fact that Moslems in America are at more risk of violence from non-Moslems than Non-Moslems are from Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM

Honestly, I am surprised that it took this long for the mosque topic to hit the Mudcat. Interestingly I was at a current events discussion group on Tuesday night; this topic took up more than half the discussion time.

There were 16 or 17 folks there, and at times is got pretty heated although the group is quite homogeneous, center conservative. One was somewhat to the left, and two lean hard right.

The consensus we reached was that:
1. Rauf has a legal right to build the Mosque/Center at the site he's chosen. It is not, a piece of airplane debris not-with-standing, on Ground Zero. It would be a mistake to try to use force of law to shut down the project.
2. It is desirable to try to use moral suasion, an appeal to being sensitive to the feeling of the victims' families, and at least consider moving the project to a less emotional area. At that time we had heard that NY Gov., Paterson, would try to negotiate a compromise, but now that seems to have fallen through.
3. We would not be happy for that project to go forward so near the WTC site, but would not be happy to see boycotts and strife over the project.

Some interesting things were mentioned, some of which I have no way of knowing are true:
1. There are already in (on) Manhattan 17 mosques. True or not I found that to be irrelevent.
2. Those who felt the proposed location was too 'in-your-face' noted that during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites, notably the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the Hagia Sofia cathedral in Constantinople (now Istanbul). I can see where this can be extrapolated by some into thinking that is what may be going on here (although this is not a religious site).
3. The proposed name of the complex hearkens back to the halcyon days of Islam and the Caliphate in Spain. In that sense, Muslims are said to be very wary of the use of the word 'crusade' in even its most benign context.
4. Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters. While i can think of one instance wheere this is true, I don't know if it can be generalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

"It is desirable to try to use moral suasion, an appeal to being sensitive to the feeling of the victims' families"

This depends on which victims families feelings we are being asked to consider.

If you mean the families of Moslems whose relatives died, then it insensitive to refuse them a community centre on the basis that Moslems are to blame.


If by some freak of neglect you don't mean them, then it depends on which feelings we are supposed to be sensitive to..

The last time I checked, Racism and Grief were not the same emotion.

On the other hand, Racism and ignorance are very closely related - so an Islamic cultural centre would be of great use in dispelling racist myths.

"Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters."

What Islamists?

"during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites, notably the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the Hagia Sofia cathedral in Constantinople"

So to John, the above is relevant, while the following is irrelevant ...

"There are already in (on) Manhattan 17 mosques."


It seems that some people are able to deduce from ancient history in the middle east that Moslems are motivated to conquer and build on holy sites and that therefore they are motivated today to do the same on a ... er ... non holy site ...

But they are unable to deduce that with 17 mosques on Manhattan, Moslems are clearly and observably able to live and coexist peacefully with mew yorkers in a fully harmonious and non conquest oriented way.


John - you seem happy to disseminate false generalizations about Moslems and to have confused Moslems with Islamists ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM

Be careful to define what you mean by Islamist.

Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary-
1. The faith, doctrine or cause of Islam.
[There are many varieties.]
2. A popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam. [This includes Sharia law].

Lox, I presume you mean the latter by Islamist. As you imply, Muslims are of all stripes and colors, not all would be happy with sharia law.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM

All comes down to the Constitution, folks...

Hey, if this Supreme Court wants to rule that a mosque can't be built ***here 'er there*** because of ***this 'er that*** but you can stick a Christain church just any where it plaeses you then what we have is a declared civil war with Muslims who have been here for a long, long time... hey, I know some of these people and they ain't like 2nd class... Might of fact, they make Redneck Nation look like...

....ahhhhh???

...oh, yeah....

...Redneck Nation...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:12 PM

Lox was quoting John on the Sunset Coast, who used the term "Islamist." There is no indication that "Islamists" are involved in the proposed center.

I suppose it's true, as John says, that "during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites." Of course, Christians have had a long tradition of doing the very same thing, changing pagan temples into churches. The Pantheon in Rome is a good example, as is the Chimayo shrine in New Mexico.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:41 AM

3. The proposed name of the complex hearkens back to the halcyon days of Islam and the Caliphate in Spain. In that sense, Muslims are said to be very wary of the use of the word 'crusade' in even its most benign context.
4. Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters. While i can think of one instance wheere this is true, I don't know if it can be generalized.

What a hilarious juxtaposition! They have changed the name from "Cordoba House" to "Park 51" -- a compromise (pace your point 4) out of sensitivity to your point 3. Oh, the irony!

We also tried to use moral suasion to prevent blacks from integrating the schools in 1964. And it was just as moral as this moral suasion. Which is to say, not at all. Guilt and shame and fear are not moral suasion. And there is no moral reason not to build an Islamic Cultural Center (including prayer area) out of an old Burlington Coat Factory building in a very proletariat and not at all holy neighbourhood that happens to be 2 blocks from where the WTC once stood.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM

Ground Zero is, presently, a very deep hole in the ground. Nothing is being built there. No monuments, no buildings, no nothing. That, to me, is a whole lot more offensive that some piddly woo Islamic Center.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 01:24 AM

With all this talk about Faud showing good will and promoting the cause of Islam by backing down, let's all take this little quiz. Let's see if we all get the same answer.

Suppose Faud tucks his tail between his legs and moves the center to another location further from the holy shrine. What will the reaction be of the people who are now screaming about how insensitive or "in bad taste" it is to put it at the proposed site?

1. Wow, I guess Muslims can be reasonable and accommodating. I was wrong about them. I'm going to have to revise my opinion that all Muslims are just like the 9/11 terrorists

or

2. We won! We won!

??

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:28 AM

"It's called Cordoba because Cordoba's in Spain, which used to be Catholic, and the IRA are Catholic, when they aren't being vice-versa. The conspiracies get everywhere."

Cordoba is also in Argentina!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 04:32 AM

What would be the reaction if raving scientologists (see Jive Aces, famous swing band) or raving mormons wanted a centre there??

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 07:01 AM

Actually it would be a good thing upon reflection because music is good for moving on from something bad - look at South Africa and what the hideous Boers did to the blacks in the 1970s!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 07:28 AM

@LadyJean: WTC construction

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 08:08 AM

World class resaurants eh - Nouvelle Cuisine with fancy patterns on your plate sir?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:25 AM

"Of course, Christians have had a long tradition of doing the very same thing, changing pagan temples into churches."

Indded they have - close to where I live is Rudston Monolith, Britain's tallest single standing stone and around 4000 years old. The church is built right next to it on a hill overlooking a series of ancient cursuses.

Rudston Monlith

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Ringer
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

Are Muslims favored? Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

Doesn't seem so...or at least I hadn't heard that the Muslims wanting to build a community center were expecting the property plus $30 million to be given them by the City of New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Digression-
Joe, there is no evidence that El Sanctuario in Chimayo ever was the site of an Indian shrine.
I know it well, as a child I went there with my parents every fall to get Chimayo chili, and winesap type apples from a little orchard nearby to the village.
The chapel was first built in roughly 1810 by a descendant of original Spanish settlers. The records are fairly complete.

Chimayo also has the remains of one of the original settler's villages, adobe dwellings and a chapel, all built in a square around an open area, now in ruins but one side which included the chapel is still there. One of the local families tries to keep visitors away by spreading scare stories about a dangerous dog, etc., but a short walk to the southwest of the chapel will take you there.

The little villages, Chimayo, Truchas and others on the edges of the Sangre de Christo are all interesting, their old chapels, built by settlers and some not at first recognized by the Spanish clergy, contain folk art and wall decoration that is interesting and unknown to the throngs of tourists that visit Santa Fe. Each also has its penitente chapel, closed to outsiders.

Cordoba, in Spain, contains one of the best preserved mosques; refitting into a church following the expulsion of the muslims did not destroy the magnificent columned interior, it is a gem. Originally the site of a Christian chapel built by Visigoths, a portion now is reoccupied by a Christian church.

Cordoba

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:39 PM

CNN yesterday had long programs on Americans views on Muslims yesterday.

Polls show 20-25 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslin.
Some 35 percent do not believe Muslims will fit into the American pattern.
A significant percentage are against any mosques.

Obama's opponents are attacking him in every way possible; they are succeeding and he will be a one-term president.
The arguments over the Islamic Center will seriously affect the mid-term elections, hardening the Obama opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM

Q, thanks for setting me straight on Chimayo, a shrine that is about halfway between Santa Fe and Taos, New Mexico. I read or heard somewhere that Chimayo was a holy place long before the Spanish arrived, but I may have had wrong information.

This Wikipedia article speaks about conversion of churches into Mosques. Toward the end of the article, it lists a few places of worship that were converted to Christian churches.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM

I agree with that assessment Q, looks like the American electorate voted for change and will end up with good ole Hill n' Bill.
BUT!!!
If change is to be delivered a mould breaker is reqired, not a ball breaker.

Obama was always a creature of the system, not rocking the boat too much is important to the Obama's of this world.

Saying the words is not longer enough, they've got to believe what they say now!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM

Polls show 20-25 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslin.

A man of the cloth?