BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:51 PM

I hear from some of them, relatives and friends. Most are college graduates... They blame the [current] administration... and will vote for a change...people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them.

Sorry, Q, but this is errant nonsense; these can't be college graduates- they barely sound like they made it out of the 6th grade.

They blame the current administration? If that isn't gross stupidity, nothing is.

If these idiots & cretins intend to vote the current admin out & the Republicans back in - give the car keys back to the ones that put the car in the ditch in the first place - isn't that voting against their own interests with a vengeance? Or would you prefer shooting themselves in the foot?

If this is really an accurate reflection of the level of intelligence and critical thinking ability of "middle America" there surelly ain't much hope for the country - emigrate now.

PS: Suggestion: Get yourself some new friends, and if possible, relatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

What the fu$k is an "Islamist" supposed to be? Is that something like a Christist? Christianist? Or a Jewisist?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

Hold on to your computer desk chairs.....for once, I agree with at least one of Obama's statements, during one of his flip flops!
Yes, the Muslim's have a 'right' to build it, but the wisdom to to such, is certainly in question!

No more on this silly distraction!
Budget!
Debt!
Unemployment!
Borders!
Illegal drug cartels!
Pakistan!
Afghanistan!
Iran nuclear violations!
Israel's response!
Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton's drug problems!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM

Get yourself some new friends...relatives.
Well, Greg F certainly is one person I would never associate with.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM

S'matter Q - embarrass ya with a few facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM

Any rational person may change his or her mind when new evidence appears or even new arguments are voiced, if they are persuasive. Why in the USA it this caricatured as "flip-flopping"? Only the terminally stupid hold to a view in the face of evidence and logic. Perhaps that is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:42 PM

Terminal stupidity PLUS unconquerable ignorance, Richard.

Its becoming characteristic in the Land of the Free Stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:47 PM

Greg F asked:

What the fu$k is an "Islamist" supposed to be? Is that something like a Christist? Christianist? Or a Jewisist?

"Islamism", as I get it, is a Muslim religio/political position which wants Islamic law to run all governments, pretty much everywhere, and with a positive attitude toward doing so by force. That's not the same as "a Muslim". Many, many Muslims, both in the United States and elsewhere around the world, disapprove of Islamism as I've defined it.

Greg, rather than "Jewisist", try the word "Zionist", or "Zionism" for a sort of parallel. This was, and I suppose one would say "is", a religio/political movement, heavily influenced by Communism or at least Socialism, and was a leading factor in the struggle to create Israel--not really typically for religious reasons. A large part of that movement's advocates were doctrinaire atheists, and as a movement had a positive attitude toward a violent revolutionary, terrorist approach to gain their ends.

Any Muslims or Jews here who feel or think they know I'm wrong in the above paragraphs, feel free to correct what I've said. That's my understanding, in any event.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Slag
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 08:07 PM

Dear Desert Dancer, to many Americans, to MOST Americans there is nothing more sacred than money. It is THEE God of the financial world. Yes, the WTC site is "Holy Ground".

Thank you Uncle DaveO for saving me from the explanation of adding "ist" to certain words.

BTW, I wasn't kidding about allowing the Muslim Center ( or mosque ) to be built. As long as it isn't a front for terror-ist activities but legitimate worship and community activity it sounds like a plus to me, so put down those broad brushes, please. I'm also for the little Greek Orhtodox Church being rebuilt. And as for a memorial to those who died in that holocaust, let that also be built, protected and honored. New York is a big, big city on a comparatively little bit of land. You have neighbors of all sorts and strange pairings and juxtapositions of all kinds of enterprises. That is one of the things that makes cities, big cities so interesting. Let it be!

All I said and all I was trying to do it get you all to look at the situation in another light. Would your opinions, prejudices or ideals allow you to see another situation with some similar features in the same light?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM

BTW, Mr. Beck's and Palin's audiences are extremists. They feed on intolerance to make their case.

I'm not sure that "making their case" is what they're after. It's making their mint. They will use whatever "case" that is to hand, if it pushes the rabble to support them at the level they wish to become accustomed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM

OK, Dave- I'm with you now.

"Islamists" being a tiny minority of the world's Muslim population, as opposed to the infinitely greater numbar of "Christian"[sic] fundagelical wackoes who want to impose "Christian" government in the U.S. and the rest of the globe and are more than willing to use violent terrorist means to secure Christian ascendency in a White Man's Country.

I think I know which group is more dangerous.

Yeah, Islamism is the ism dismallist of all (with apologies to the Chad Mitchell Trio - plus ca change...)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:02 AM

But remember those "fundagelical wackoes" are a tiny minority of the world's Christian population. So are Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Slag
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM

I'm sure glad nobody thinks of Greg F as a wackoe (potatoe?). Somebody has to be the paradigm for sane thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:06 AM

those "fundagelical wackoes" are a tiny minority of the world's Christian population.

Check your statistics, Kevin: substantial numbers and growing.

The BNP, Neo-Nazis, KKK & the other white supremecist groups worldwide all claim to be proud "Christians"[sic].

Then there's the "Christians"[sic] merrily bombing family planning clinics & murdering doctors.

Then there's the Oklahoma City bombing.

Then there's the new Texas "history"[sic] curriculum, and the Arizona law banning "ethnic studies".

Then there are the loonies foaming at the mouth on the streets of New York City.

Etc. Etc.

Proud "Christians"s[sic] all.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM

"substantial numbers" in the United States is still "a tiny minority" in the world.

And I think you'd find the people you are talking about, Greg, are talking about are still outnumbered by other varieties of Christian, even in the United States, let alone elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM

"substantial numbers" in the United States is still "a tiny minority" in the world.

And I think you'd find the people you are talking about, Greg, are still outnumbered by other varieties of Christian, even in the United States, let alone elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:43 PM

Seems that at least one Tailban leader has weighed on on this and says the controversy is being used for recruiting purposes...

Way to go, Beck, et al... Now yer in cahoots with the Taliban...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

Sayin' it twice, Kevin, don't make it so, and last I knew the BNP and/or neo-Nazis (among other international/European groups of similar ilk) didn't have much of a presence in the U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Slag
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM

The fallacy which you use to paint all Christians as wackoes(sic) is that of attributing what may be true of the part to the whole, Greg F. It is a favorite tactic of those who are long on opinion and short on fact.

Your focus is on a tiny, tiny minority of either dubious or non-existent religious affilliation and for whom a vast, and I mean vast majority of folks of the Christian faith would and do denounce and for whom they hold the same opinion as perhaps you do for those INDIVIDUALS who perpetrate crimes or openly display hatred for a group or minority, you know, kinda the same way you do toward Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:27 PM

Many Christians, Jews and Muslims alike must realize that what they believe will not work for everyone. Sharia Law, Talmudic Law, Christian Dispensationalism,etc, are not applicable to everyone and when they become enforced on everyone, then they become tyrannical.
Reasonable religious people understand this and obey their laws in accordance to their faith and not others. This central point is missing from the reactionary stance to the building
of Park51.

John Stewart did an excellent job exposing Talal, the Arabic financier of both the cultural
center and Fox News (with Murdoch). The hypocrisy was made clear. It is a manufactured
political time by Fox News and the Tea Party who are stirring up discontent for the next election. Dick Armey and Americans for Prosperity headed up by Art Pope, James C. Miller,
James E. Stephenson, and Frayda Levy. These are the culpable ones who are stirring up the hatred for political reasons. People on Mudcat need to know who these behind-the-scenes players are and what their political agenda is. Unfortunately for Obama, the appear to be succeeding but they are the maggots under the rock and light has to be shone on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:28 PM

As a Christain, my problem is with the Christain Right which has tried to promote itself as representing "Christains"... It doesn't but it ceratinly wrecked hovoc in alot of churches and drove lots of good, decent and caring Christain's outta lots of Christain churches...

Worst part is that alot of the splittin' of churches came from very bad behavior of those on the right side of the divide... I mean, who wnats to go to chucrh to have some holier-than-thou political nutball scream at you... I watched the church I grew up in be taken over by idealoques who ran not only the minister but half the congregation with him... I was 18 and those memories will never, ever leave me...

Reminds me of the town hall meetings last summer that were rudely interupted when moderate and soft-soken people wer bullied and shouted down...

IM(most)HO, real Christains shouldn't act like that but, hey, people's Faith is a persoanl thing and so I'm not gonna say these rude folks are not of Faith... Just ain't the way Jesus would want people to behave in church...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM

Where oh where, Slag ol' bud, did I say that ALL "Christians"[sic] were wackoes? Or are you just makin' this stuff up as you go along?

And a vast, and I mean vast majority of folks of the Muslim faith would and do denounce those that you refer to as "Islamists"[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM

And the vast majority of Christians are not at all impressed by the antics of the "wackoes".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:45 PM

I found this interesting. From HERE:

One of the nation's leading Mormon elected officials has cited the battle over a Mormon temple in Belmont in arguing that Muslims should be allowed to build a mosque near Ground Zero.

Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican, said mosque proponents ''have every right'' to carry out their plans in New York, just as Mormons had a right to build their temple, despite neighborhood opposition.

''I have a tendency, when it comes to religious liberty issues, to always uphold the rights of legitimate churches and legitimate religious groups to be able to meet and to build their mosques or their chapels or their cathedrals on property they own, and I will fight for their right to do that,'' Hatch said, speaking to a FOX News reporter in Utah.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Slag
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:08 AM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM

And the vast majority of Christians are not at all impressed by the antics of the "wackoes".

And that's a major part of the problem, Kevin.

The "vast majority" - or should I say "silent majority"? - of "Christians"[sic], if they do indeed profess to follow the teachings of Christ, SHOULD be duly impressed by the antics of the wackoes and roundly and loudly condemn them at every opportunity.

But they don't.

Seems they could thus learn something from the vast majority of Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

I suspect that a history of centuries of bloody sectarian conflict between Christians may sometimes make people reluctant to be too outspoken about other branches of Christianity, even where these are seen as deplorable.

I suspect that the same kind of thinking may make many Muslims reluctant to speak out too openly about variants of their religion which are extreme, such as the relatively recent (200 years is recent in this context) development of Wahhabism, which seems to have been been the seed-bed of Jihadism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:51 AM

A liberal muslim perspective on the issue:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/struggle+against+jihad/3462217/story.html#ixzz0yAie1n1f

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:59 AM

I suspect that a history of centuries of bloody sectarian conflict between Christians may sometimes make people reluctant to be too outspoken...

While that may be an explanation, Kevin, in no way is it an excuse for their silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:05 PM

I found this reporting on overseas, Muslim perspective on what's going on here interesting:

U.S. Culture Wars Matter in the Middle East, Too, it's subtitled, "Forget about the protests against the mosque near Ground Zero; the threat to burn the Quran on Sept. 11 is what could incite serious conflict in the Middle East."

(Got to it via NPR posting it as "partner content".)

The reporter, echoing comments that have arisen elsewhere (including the NYC taxi driver who was assaulted), says that many Muslims say, "if the location bothers people, put it somewhere else," no big deal.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM

"if the location bothers people, put it somewhere else,"

Very much the same as "if sitting in the front of the bus annoys people, what's wrong with the back of the bus".

In one sense perhaps sensible, location doesn't matter too much in absolute terms. But backing down in the face of bigotry damages a society very deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

I'm dismayed--if not surprised--by the current wave of what I call Cafeteria Constitutionalists. It's there-and if someone wants to change it, there are provisions for doing so. But none of these include ignoring the parts you don't like at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

Greg, liberal Christians are far from silent. What may create that impression is that the more rabid "fundevangelists" and their outrageous outbursts make much better news copy than the statements of people like the Rev. Jim Wallis (who has written several books on matters of social justice and religious freedom for all religions, and speaks all over the country) and a whole host of ministers and pastors who are speaking out constantly against the excesses of those who claim to be Christians while promulgating ideas that (according to the teachings of Jesus laid out in the Gospels, which is supposed to be the basis of Christianity) would have made Jesus very sad, if not downright furious.

There are a half-dozen churches of various denominations within walking distance of where I live (a couple of Lutheran churches, Presbyterian, Baptist—yes, Baptist!—Methodist, and a very large Episcopal cathedral), and not one of them endorses what the fundevangelists are saying. They all speak out strongly against it.

But as I say again:   when the spittle-spraying hate-mongers shout outrages in the name of what they consider to be Christianity, it makes much better news copy. So that's what gets reported.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM

I agree, McGrath, I think that's why Americans have spoken up. I just find it interesting that some Muslims within and outside the U.S. find the location issue relatively easy to concede.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM

To everything there is a season
And a time to every purpose, under Heaven

Sometimes, reasonably enough people see survival as the priority, rather than justice. It must be a bit frightening to be a Muslim in America right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM

As a reminder, Constitutional rights are not affected by popular opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

Fareed Zakaria, the Indian-American journalist who comments regularly on CNN, has returned the award he received from the Anti-Defamation League because of their opposition to the mosque near 'ground zero'.
Illume, an Islamic news source online. Aug. 10, 2010, Carma Hassan.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Dick sez As a reminder, Constitutional rights are not affected by popular opinion.

Or shouldn't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:10 PM

After the November election the mosque can fade to obscurity again

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Here is what some American Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have to say:

Hi,

Since the debate erupted, we've kept out of the argument over the planned Community Center for Muslims in Lower Manhattan (falsely called the "Ground Zero Mosque"). Initially, we believed this was a local issue for New Yorkers to discuss. But, we can no longer stay silent. We need your help.

We're asking for you to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans who already signed an open letter to the developer of the site, Sharif El-Gamal, supporting his right to develop the site, and expressing the view that allowing his community center to move forward will be a powerful tool in defeating the same terrorists we fought against in war.

There are two very important reasons we Iraq and Afghanistan veterans feel we must speak out. First and foremost, when we signed up for service, we swore to uphold the Constitution. For all the talk these days from some quarters about the importance of protecting the Constitution and allowing the free market to work unfettered, those same people are fighting against a person's right to buy property and worship freely. Our duty to protect the Constitution doesn't end when our service does. It's up to us to stand up for the right for all Americans to enjoy the Constitutional freedoms that so many around the world don't have.

Secondly, allowing the Community Center to move forward will deal a blow to the propaganda of al Qaeda and Islamist extremists, who recruit on the talking point that the United States is in a war against Islam. Of course, we're not. But, if those forces of intolerance win, it will certainly appear that we are in a war against one religion—Islam.

As Matthew Alexander, a former interrogator in Iraq, and VoteVets.org member wrote at the Huffington Post, "Imagine an al Qaeda recruiter attempting to sway a potential charge by citing an imaginary American war against Muslims but having to face the counterargument that Americans built a Muslim community center near the site of the former Twin Towers. The Cordoba House would be a powerful symbol of U.S. tolerance and freedom that will stand in direct contradiction to al Qaeda's narrative that Americans hate Muslims."

That's the point. Defeating al Qaeda will take the use of force. But it will also take destroying their ability to recruit, and that means winning hearts and minds. As veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan know, having the people on your side is of utmost importance.

CLICK HERE TO JOIN US IN PROTECTING THE CONSTITUTION AND AMERICA

Please take a moment to click the link above to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in this open letter, supporting the right of Muslims to build a community center on property they lawfully bought. This is too important an issue for us to stay silent on any longer.

Sincerely,

Jon Soltz
(Follow me on Twitter—@jonsoltz)
Iraq War Veteran
Chairman, VoteVets.org

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM

Q.... good for him. Fareed is one of the best journalists I have seen on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: bobad
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:32 PM

If the 'Mosque' Isn't Built, This Is No Longer America

By Michael Moore
OpenMike 9/11/10
Michael Moore's daily blog

I am opposed to the building of the "mosque" two blocks from Ground Zero.

I want it built on Ground Zero.

Why? Because I believe in an America that protects those who are the victims of hate and prejudice. I believe in an America that says you have the right to worship whatever God you have, wherever you want to worship. And I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back. And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/if-mosque-isnt-built-no-longer-america

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: bobad
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM

I like this line from the link cited above:

"There is a McDonald's two blocks from Ground Zero. Trust me, McDonald's has killed far more people than the terrorists."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 05:50 PM

Quotation of the Day
"This country stands for the proposition that all men and women are created equal, that they have certain inalienable rights. And what that means is that if you could build a church on a site, you could build a synagogue on a site, if you could build a Hindu temple on a site, then you should be able to build a mosque on the site."
PRESIDENT OBAMA, on religious tolerance.

(NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:29 PM

I'm not sure I didn't sign the petition/letter thingie already.

What I find remarkable is the way the military is often portrayed by right wing extremists.

My opinion.

When I was active duty:
-We were not Democrat, Republican, or anything else; we were all of them.
-We were not all the same race; there was no race of people on this earth that I didn't work with, or for, and people felt safe enough to talk about their opinions regarding race. Not so much discussion between individuals of different races in the civilian world.
-We were not all the same religion; I worked with atheists, agnostics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, and probably a load of others. People chose to talk about their religion or not. It had little to do with the job.

I felt like I worked for Americans, and Americans look like your or I, or they don't. They are still Americans, and they have the same rights as all Americans. One of those is freedom of religion. A person in the military fights for those rights for EVERYBODY, not just the folks they like.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:48 PM

All very true, Jeri...and what I find even more depressing is that those who have never served so often portray people in the military as being right wing extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 11:12 PM

I strongly support the right to worship freely wherever and whenever you want. I also strongly support the right of anyone not to participate. Christianity has more than its share of idiotic leaders but I believe that they are greatly outnumbered by those preaching a message of love and peace. I am deeply offended when the former say I will go to Hell because I don't subscribe to their dogma. Likewise I find Muslim dogma offensive when it is in conflict of human or individual rights. Religious belief is all about personal choices that one makes as an individual. Christian religious leaders need to denounce the "born again" thinking and preaching of the wingnuts. Muslim leaders need to denounce both sharia law and the concept of jihad! Perhaps then we will be able to take larger steps towards living in peace and harmony!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:18 AM

Facts.
1. Islam did not attack America
2.Iraq did not attack America.
3. Afghanistan did not attack America.

Never underestimate the power of ignorant people in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM

I agree with olddude, Michael Moore, Orrin Hatch, Mayor Bloomberg and the war vets.

The Muslim center will be built. Muslims in America will continue to feel more accepted and participatory in the States than in other Western democracies.

The American media will continue to foment excitement wherever they stupidly can.

Freedom of speech and religion will continue to be protected to the continuing offense of some.

Those closest to the horror will heal themselves of emotional trauma the rest of us cannot fully appreciate but should respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 12:52 PM

"Greg, rather than "Jewisist", try the word "Zionist", or "Zionism" for a sort of parallel. This was, and I suppose one would say "is", a religio/political movement, heavily influenced by Communism or at least Socialism, and was a leading factor in the struggle to create Israel--not really typically for religious reasons. A large part of that movement's advocates were doctrinaire atheists, and as a movement had a positive attitude toward a violent revolutionary, terrorist approach to gain their ends."

Dave, I have to disagree with you here. Zionist is not atheist. Israel was conceived by
scriptural injunction. And it was for religious reasons since Judaism is a religion. If it has been expanded to mean a culture, then it is a culture based on religion. I disagree that many of the movement's advocates were "doctrinaire atheists". This is an opinion and not a fact. Revolutionary or terrorist acts to gain an end is not the province of atheism but generally religious, Stalin, notwithstanding, who was not a true atheist but a ideological leader with early religious training.