BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM

Burke, I went one letter too far.

Didn't get to listen to it all, but CNN was going on about some Muslim woman put on leave by Disneyland because she wore a head scarf.
Looks like anything to do with them is fodder for the TV news broadcasters.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 06:21 PM

Some folks are ignoring the fact that they bought this building for a bit over $8 million...cheap for Manhattan. They can't just 'move' without a LOT more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM

Are Muslims favored? Click Here

No, Muslims are not favoured. You just can't read. The Faux News article clearly states what the real issue is with the Greek church: they're trying to do a land swap with the port authority for a piece of land worth $20,000,000.00 more than the land they now have, and want the port authority to give them the upgrade for free. Gee, why would that get bogged down? In addition they don't even have the money to build a tithe of the edifice they want. They've had 10 years to raise the money to build a new church. There's not even a fundraising pitch on their website. These people, God forgive me for I am Orthodox too, are inept.

Comparing this to Faud wanting to build a community center on land he already owns and that he has the money to go ahead with?

It's like comparing apples and orangutans.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 07:38 PM

This weeks's TimeMagazine has a cover story asking whether the US is Islamophobic. Interesting reading.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 10:08 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but is not a temple of mammon not being built actually at Ground Zero called "the Freedom Tower" or something similar?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 10:50 PM

It will be called "One World Trade Center." Three lesser towers will accompany it, and they will surround something called "National September 11 Memorial & Museum."

Yep, commerce must prevail over all.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 12:47 AM

The real American religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:13 AM

It's hard to believe that so many Americans buy into this crap.

As one Mudcatter said, I think there is a concerted effort to undermine Barack Obama, to destroy him in any way possible. The real target of this onslaught against the Muslim Cultural Center, is Barack Obama. Whether you agree with Barack Obama or not, I think it's clear that he is an honorable man - one of the few honorable men who have occupied the White House in my lifetime. And the Big Money Boys are doing their best to bring him down.

People have their prejudices, but it takes big money to exploit those prejudices - and that is exactly what's happening.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 07:47 AM

Anyone who assumes that all Muslims are the same or that all must be penalised for the sins of the few (a few who appear wholly to have misinterpreted the meaning of the word "jihad") despite the US's constitutional "freedom of religion" is a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 12:43 PM

Les Fargo actually is saying that Muslims have no place in America, that a handful of terrorists represent the 5 to 8 million Muslims resident in the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

Personally I am opposed to any religious edifice attempting to "cash in" on Ground Zero.

However, Mosque-bashing is becoming a vicious sport in the US.

Whether it's a Mosque or a Catholic Church being erected (or any other religious edifice)
the whole Ground Zero reaction is a complete red-herring. Whether one edifice or another goes up near there makes no difference whatsoever as to what happened on 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM

How about some mormon bashing - or scientologiists or raving catholics for a change?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM

And yet once again - it is not a mosque and it is not at or near "Ground Zero".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM

I'm up for bashing a few scientologists ...

Lets sstart with this one ...

Warning - this is very creepy ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM

I am opposed to any religious edifice attempting to "   cash in "    on Ground Zero.

It's not even that near "Ground Zero". The project to build the Moslem Cultural Centre in Park Place was started before 9/11. There are two Christian churches, at least, right next to "Ground Zero, much closer. And next door to to the proposed cultural centre there is an Amish Market.

What is really unpleasant is seeing bigots and political opportunist attempting in this way to "cash in" on the tragic events of September 11th 2001, and to drum up hatred against Moslems, including millions of their fellow Americans. Unpleasant maybe isn't the right word. Disgusting might be closer.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 11:44 PM

Conngratulations to the Port Authority of NYC on FINALLY building the freedom tower. It only took them 9 years.

Im those 9 years, the catalogs have been full of tacky bric a brack commemorating fallen firefighters, New York Police, or the passengers of flight 93. Most of it made by foreigners, for someone who decided to make a buck off of 9/11.

Then there were the promotions run by assorted retailers, the fundraisers, some real some fake, oh and George W's phoney terror alerts.

Every one of them spitting on the graves of the men and women who died on September 11.

Who cares about a piddly woo Islamic center.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM

There is already a mosque in one of the two buildings to be replaced by the Islamic Center, and has been there and operating for a number of years before 9/11, so that part of thing would not be changed. But the organizers of the Islamic Center need the next-door building too for their plans, and I understand they had thought they had or soon would have the financing to buy that building. That financing now looks doubtful.

And the stories usually like to talk about "near Ground Zero". I wouldn't call it that. I understand it's about six blocks away. It's not as if it were to be across the street or down the block just a couple of buildings away. In that busy, crowded city, that's a long way.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

I'm wondering if any religion (other than greed) is associated with the "Freedom Tower".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM

Again- There will be no 'freedom tower', the building will be named "One World Trade Center."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM

This weeks's TimeMagazine has a cover story asking whether the US is Islamophobic.

The U.S. Islamophobic?

Does the Pope shit in the woods?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 03:01 PM

From above, as to exact location: -

"just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero?

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House.


From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.

If you look up the walking directions you'll notice that it takes a couple of minutes to walk the distance (approximately a tenth of a mile) between the two spots. Pretty much two minutes exactly when I took the trip with a shaky video camera. Here's the clip, first sped up to 4X speed then slowed down to 1X:


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero."

Now as to the other tower. So it's not going to be called "the Freedom Tower" but is the "One World Trade Center". Well, that makes its status as a temple of mammon clearer, but, I repeat, is there any indication of it being associated with any religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM

I hear that some Americans regard ground zero as some sort of sacred site because 3000 people were killed there. It's worth remembering that the direct upshot of that horrible day is that around one and a quarter million innocent people have been slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan. By America and its allies, but mostly by America. I wonder where their ground zero will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 07:41 PM

Here is a short video of a crowd demonstrating against the non-Mosque at 'ground zero'.

It depicts a black man wearing a small hat walking through the crowd.

The crowd, seeing a man with dark skin in a close fitting hat, instantly assume he is a Moslem and round on him.

A big guy in a hard hat comes over to rough him up but is thankfully held in check.

He is asked to leave and escorted off the premisses by a police man.

Why?


The answer folks is very simple.


He was black and the crowd are racist.


             The video

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 01:08 AM

Lox, thank you for that link. It's hard to come up with a good adjective to describe my feelings. I used to be proud to be an American, because America was a country you could be proud of. It's becoming less so with every day. I HATE what the neo-cons and Tea Party have done to my country. It will take decades to undo the damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 01:14 AM

Well, I gotta say the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree. Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble.
It also appears to me that the demonstration was located in an area much nearer to the so-called Ground Zero. Wouldn't you think it would be at the proposed "mosque" site? Of course, if the demonstration were at the actual site of the proposed Islamic Cultural Center, people would see how insignificant the site is - and how nice it would be to have some new construction instead of abandoned buildings on that space.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:06 AM

"Well, I gotta say the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree. Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble."

That's not the impression I get from the video, rather a large crowd of white people seem to threatening a black man because they thought he was a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:33 AM

"the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree"

This is inaccurate.

There is no disagreeing with them until they start abusing him.

The guy is at pains to point out that noone there knows what he thinks or ever asked him what his opinion was.

His only utterances are on the subject of the aggression he received.

The only thing they've got to criticize him for are being black, having a hat, and being there.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM

He was in the area because quote: he "is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero". After being confronted he states "I'm not even Muslim!".

So he was a non-Muslim black bloke wearing a close fitting beany cap who happened to be there because he works there. And the crowd were a racist and potentially dangerous lynch-mob.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM

Joe is correct, the guy was either an idiot....calling the crowd motherfuckers, or a self publicist looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

I would hate to see what would happen in the UK, if a BNP supporter started calling our "liberal anti facists" motherfuckers!
Another bloodbath?

Actually, I thought given the emotional content,that the American demonstrators conducted themselves very well.

They in the main looked just like ordinary folks.....no crash helmets or Balaclavas!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:19 AM

"Again- There will be no 'freedom tower', the building will be named "One World Trade Center.""

Now that is really scary! The mightiest god of all, these days, is money. It seems to me that the world is degenerating into some weird 3-way fight between those who worship money and two types of religious (i.e. 'old style' religious) fundamentalists; a plague on all their houses!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 07:12 AM

The World Trade Center is a large office complex in central Manhattan. It originally had seven buildings, named (imaginatively) One through Seven. The twin towers were officially named One and Two World Trade Center; the new building will use the original name and Two will not be replaced. The third building destroyed, Seven World Trade Center, has already been rebuilt and reopened in 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM

I have listened to that video and I don't think he does call the crowd "motherfuckers". I think he says "What the fuck?" - a very reasonable question since it seems he was Joe ordinary on his way to work. The crowd shouts later on of "Mohammed's a pig" are however both extremely clear and extremely shameful. There is no way that it can rationally be said that the crowd conducted themselves well.

I am intrigued by the "One World Trade Centre" - is "One World" part of its name, emphasising the colonialist aspirations of capitalism, or is "One" simply the number - sort of "Building No. 1, World Trade Centre"?

I wonder if the new tower symbolises more than a simple fixation on greed, in that the original proponent of the prizewinning design was Daniel Libeskind, the original developer was Larry Silverstein, and a number of design features seem to be the work of Schlaich Bergermann and partner.   

Quote from Wikipedia follows: -

Key people
[edit]


Larry Silverstein

Larry Silverstein of Silverstein Properties, the leaseholder and developer of the complex, will retain control of the surrounding buildings, while the Port Authority gets full control of the tower itself. Silverstein signed a 99-year lease for the World Trade Center site in July 2001. Silverstein's insurance payout has been a subject of public discourse, as he maintained that the two planes constituted two separate attacks and sued for an extra $3.5 billion. Silverstein has pledged to support the reconstruction and remains actively involved in most aspects of the redevelopment process.
[edit]


David Childs

David Childs, one of Larry Silverstein's favorite architects, initially came on board thanks to Silverstein's insistence, and developed a proposal for 1 WTC in collaboration with Daniel Libeskind, a design which was revised in May 2005 to address security concerns. He is the project architect of the new 1 WTC, and is responsible for overseeing the day-to-day design development from rough inception to final completion.
[edit]


Daniel Libeskind

Daniel Libeskind won the 2002 competition to develop a master plan for the World Trade Center's redevelopment.

Architect Daniel Libeskind won the invitational competition to develop a master plan for the World Trade Center's redevelopment in 2002. He included an initial proposal for the design of 1 WTC, a building with aerial gardens and windmills with an off-center spire. It was also Libeskind who denied a request to place the tower in a more rentable location next to the PATH station and instead placed it a block west because in profile it would line up and resemble the Statue of Liberty. Although these designs have since been changed, his contributions continue to shape the design and development at Ground Zero, as they are revised to meet economic and security realities.
[edit]


Dan Tishman

Dan Tishman, along with his father John Tishman, builder of the original World Trade Center, is leading the construction management effort for Tishman Realty & Construction, the selected builder for 1 WTC.
[edit]


Douglas & Jody Durst

The co-presidents of the real estate development company The Durst Organization won the right to invest at least $100 million (but could reach as high as $300 million) in the project on July 7, 2010. They are a family owned private company that specializes in the development, managing, leasing, and operations of sustainable commercial construction space.[70][71][72] Conde Nast, a long time Durst tenant, has also confirmed a tenative deal to move into 1 World Trade Center.[71][73][74]

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM

@Richard: "One" is the building number, replacing the original #1, which was numbered 1 because it was the first one erected in the complex. See my post just before yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM

Thank you Art. I think your post arrived while I was composing mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:18 AM

Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble

Yeah, that's always been the problem with them Nigras. They're alway's lookin' for trouble.

Walkin' while Black. Drivin' while Black. Tryin'to vote. Medgar Evers wuz lookin' fer trouble. Denise McNair, Addie Mae Collins, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley wuz DAMN sure lookin' fer trouble an' they got it. Jus' don' know their place.

Who the hell did he think he wuz, walkin down th' street just like a white person?

Ya know, in the 1920's the Ku Klux Klan-re-born in all its Reconstruction-era virulence at Stone Mountain, GA in 1915- had over 5 million signed-up members committed to their anti-Black, anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant, anti-union "This Is A White Man's Country" bullshit.

With today's population, this ratio would translate to 11 million - and I think we've got 'em AND MORE, certainly in spirit if not in name & organizational affiliation.

A sad day for what's left of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM

"Joe is correct, the guy was either an idiot....calling the crowd motherfuckers, or a self publicist looking for his 15 minutes of fame."



Ake must have missed this.


"He was in the area because quote: he "is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero". After being confronted he states "I'm not even Muslim!". "


I'm curious to know how he was publicising himself, or how walking to and from work was going to get him his 15 minutes of fame.


Then again, I suppose it is likely that Ake didn't miss it, but just chose to ignore it.


If Ake says the guy was provking the crowd then it follows that it must be true, and if you support the guys right to go to and from work without being harrassed, and condemn the crowd to victimize him on his way to and from work, then you are a "liberal fascist".


Thanks to Ake we have established the key issue highlighted by the video - the irresponsibility of innocent passers by for not anticipating that a crowd protesting against a mosque might be aggressive racists.


It was his own fault that he was abused, so Ake is right to add to that abuse by calling him an idiot.


I suppose it would be comparable to a teenage girl wearing a miniskirt to a nightclub and then being raped, insofar as he was asking for it really.


FW is back folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM

I reckon those protesters aught to have a lynching over at their nearest Nike distributors.

Check out this: Nike Support Muslim Terrorists!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

They in the main looked just like ordinary folks

That's what is really worrying.

The time when extremism really starts to matter is when when it becomes perfectly ordinary to be an extremist, and in fact it stops being "extremism", and becomes part of the mainstream.

In the Jim Crow years, racism in the South was not in any way an extremist position, it was mainstream.

Ever seen "Triumph of the Will"? The crowds who cheered Hitler in Nuremberg "in the main looked just like ordinary folks". That precisely what they were, in that time and that place.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

McGrath - I see you are falling for "liberal" dogma again.

You see it ould make so much more sense if you would follow Ake's "maverick", "independant" lead.

You'd seem so much more original and insightful if you did.

Ah well ... another conscript for the "liberal fascists"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:51 PM

Mr McGrath, do you really think these people were behaving like extremists? Then you have led a very sheltered life.

I have been a "extremist" I have demonstrated with extremists I know how extremists think....and the folks in New York were on a Sunday school picnic compared to some of the violence I have seen....and yes participated in.

As I said earlier, the that man had walked into the middle of an anti-facist demo in the UK and started calling the demonstrators "motherfuckers"....he would have ended up a bloody pulp.

One must remember that to ordinary American folks, three thousand of their fellow citizens were viciously murdered by radical Islamists and no one has been brought to justice for that vile act.

Whether you or I are in agreement with that perception is neither here nor there, these people do not share the left wing perspective that the United States of America is a rapacious bullying monster, which deserves all it gets in the way of retribution, but sincerly believe their armed forces are a bulwark against those who would destroy Western values of freedom and democracy.

As for the man who walked through the demonstration cursing the demonstrators, I feel he was very lucky that they showed such remarkable restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM

There's a high probabilty it's gonna get bombed.

Just sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

Ake -

1. I see no evidence that the worker was walking around calling anyone anything. He has plainly already been confronted by the opening of the video.

2. I don't hear him say "motherfucker". I hear what I said I heard before and it's still very reasonable.

3. You hear the crowd screaming "Mohammed is a Pig". If not wash your ears. That's oral at least extremism.

4. Even assuming that 3,000 were murdered by radical Islamists, what has that got to do with attacking a man who was not even a Moslem, much less a radical Islamist?

5. How stupid do you have to be to be shouting "No Mosque Here" when (a) it isn't a mosque (b) it won't be there, and (c) there is already a mosque on the site where it will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:22 PM

After viewing that video, and seeing a number of videos of "Tea Party" rallies, I advance the hypothesis that the larger the crowd is, the lower the average I.Q. is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:25 PM

Extremists? No, as I said, I am worried that they do not appear to be "extremists", but that the attitudes they represent appear to be, in that time and that place, pretty mainstream, and that they are vile attitudes.

Extremists don't really matter too much, in the final analysis. They can cause mayhem and so forth, but so long as they are on their own they can never win. It's when the ordinary people come on board that things change.

That applies whether the extremism involved is seen as "good" or as "bad".
...........................

I think gnu is very likely right in predicting that the centre will very likely get bombed. And a lot of "ordinary folk" will take satisfaction from that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:51 PM

Just as a lot of "ordinary folk" took satisfaction from the bombing of the towers?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM

I think they should let Cordoba House be built.

Then, they get on and build a Round House of Muti-Faith on the site of Ground Zero which has one entrance door for all, above which are the words "All Are Welcome Within This Holy Place'

It should be built by builders from around the world, of all faiths, of all colours, of all backgrounds.

That way, Ground Zero would mean something special to every faith on the planet and perhaps make them realise that we are all One Species.

Cordoba House would soon pale beside The House of Many Faiths.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM

That doesn't actually sound all that different from what is proposed for "Cordoba House":

"The Cordoba Initiative...is a multi-faith non-profit organization whose aim is to improve relations between different communities, and in particular between the Muslim world and the United States of America.

The proposed community center in Lower Manhattan will serve as a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally." (From here)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM

Oh ... I see where my mistake is ...

... The crowd weren't as extreme as Ake and his chums 'back in the day' - they were better behaved than Ake used to be - which makes them normal.

Cos in the old days, if you stumbled into Akes crowd saying "motherfucker" you were likely to have your face ground into the pavement.

And therefore, the guy was an idiot for walking through that crowd.


You know, I had thought of pointing out that the only time a BNP supporter ever gets embroiled in the middle of an anti-fascist crowd is when he steams in with an Iron bar.

Who knows, maybe in the old days Akes bunch would be on an anti fascist demo, when they would coincidentally find themselves surrounding an innocent skinhead out for a stroll to get the sunday papers - of course they wouldn't have been alerted to his presence until he shouted "motherfucker", at which point everyonw would pile in.

Blimey Ake, the stories you must have stored up for the grandkids eh? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 08:48 PM

PS - the only reason the crowd in the video, courageously led by the guy in the blue hard hat, don't beat the black guy up is because the big security guy stops it happening.

Rosa Parks was an idiot for not giving up her seat.

She could have avoided trouble by just standing up and keeping the peace.

Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM

Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque!

By RonPaul.com on August 20, 2010

Congressman Ron Paul today released the following statement on the controversy concerning the construction of an Islamic Center and Mosque in New York City:

    Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

    It has been said, "Nero fiddled while Rome burned." Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are "fiddling while the economy burns."

    The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

    Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be "sensitive" requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from "ground zero."

    Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

    In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

    They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

    The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we're supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

    The nineteen suicide bombers didn't come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

    Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don't want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be "sensitive" and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

    This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

    There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

    If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

    The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

    Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

    Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

    It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don't want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

    The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives' aggressive wars.

    The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

    This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

    We now have an epidemic of "sunshine patriots" on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there's no controversy and nobody is offended.

    Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.