BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

Well . . . negative, too. As in, ". . . or so he claims."

Implying that, even if it's not an outright lie, it's still probably not true.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:02 PM

That sentence came across to me as implying "very likely not true", which is what would be the case in an English paper. But does it carry the same implication to Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM

Thanks, Don!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:54 PM

McGrath, in this case 'claim' means only that El-Gamal is on the yellow brick road to becoming a real estate mogul, perhaps boasting a bit; I did not go on to quote a comparison the writers made with Donald Trump, who has gone beyond 'claim' to become the real Mazuma and the bricks have morphed to gold.
El-Gamal has a few apartment buildings but that is small potatoes in the Apple.

If you want to comment validly, go to Fox News on the net and read the article, don't try to read meanings into American usage from a word with several meanings, especially in reporterese.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM

...from Q's post:

"...plan to build a 13-story Islamic cultural center, health club and mosque 300 yards from the World Trade Center memorial..."

13 story?

It will include a "health club and mosque"?

Please square those facts with the Mudcat statements that "it is not a mosque" and that it is "several blocks from ground zero".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM

The mosque is actually next-door to the site where the cultural center is planned. As for distance, I suppose that it depends on how long you consider a "block" to be. The site is apparently 2 blocks in one direction and one in another from the nearest part of the WTC - WTC 7. It is further from the former site of the twin towers (WTC 1 and WTC 2). In some opinions, "ground zero" is the place where the towers stood; in others it is anywhere in the city where debris way have landed. Take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

pdq, your quarrel, if any, is with a newspaper article. However, the quoted statements from Fox News are from Associated Press material, and may be found also in NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and other reputable journals. Go and read for yourself- if you are at least semi-literate.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:45 PM

I am simply gobsmacked by "As a moderately right-wing-centrist editorial position, Fox News".

There is and never has ben anything moderate about Faux News. News should be the factual reporting of actual events, and separate from editorialisation. Faux seldom reports facts in an objective or accurate way, and its selection of its stories is way out. It is the creature of extreme capitalist propaganda (OK, not quite so far out as some of the US fundamentalist loonies, but a long way from moderate about anything).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:49 PM

A Map

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:03 PM

Where is ground zero? Amy Westfeldt, Associated Press, Aug 26, 2010, Minneapolis-St. Paul StarTribune.
"The lines marking the site of the 2001 terror attacks change depending on whick New Yorker, family member and American you talk to. Even those who know it best can't agree on its boundaries.
Kathleen Hall Jamieson, Univ. Pennsylvania communications professor who studies political rhetoric says, "What you have is a classic instance of people responding to a symbol whose meaning is physically divorced from the actual space."

The map Artbrooks linked shows the outline of the area around ground zero closed off for safety reasons while heavy construction is ongoing.
It is as good as any as a reference. I will accept it. Don't know the dimensions of the NY blocks in this part of the island, etc. but can't see that critical measurements are important.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:23 PM

Hey now! Looky at the *"New York Dolls Gentleman's Club" on Artbrooks map. Only a block farther away-
* The name on the marquee over the sidewalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

If you look at Art's map, there is a legend about 1/3 the way up from the bottom, on right.

It shows 250 feet next to the corresponding line.

If accurate, that suggest that the "Islamic Culteral Center" will be about 300 feet "as the crow flies" from Ground Zero, "North side X".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM

That sentence came across to me as implying "very likely not true", which is what would be the case in an English paper. But does it carry the same implication to Americans?

Yes.

If accurate, that suggest that the "Islamic Culteral Center" will be about 300 feet "as the crow flies" from Ground Zero, "North side X".

SO? How far is far enough? There has been a long-running fight on Staten Island about building a mosque there. This is just anti-Islamism. The people chanting "Mohammed is a pig" at the demonstration outside the Burlington Coat Factory building make that very clear. It's hatred and bile. The ruse that it's about "sensibilities" is just that, a ruse. It's about bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:37 PM

There are crows in NYC?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

""as the crow flies" Have there been any objections to this from crows?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 07:07 AM

Yes, there are a few crows in New York, I recall; but quite a few nice lookers also.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 08:29 AM

...[Ground Zero]... is anywhere in the city where debris way have landed.

Taking the winds into account & the amount of dust and ash "Ground Zero" then likely includes The Bronx, Staten Island, Newark and perhaps Rhinebeck.

Let's get all them Mosques OUTA THERE TOO!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:32 AM

The planned Park51 is not precisely at Ground Zero. The idea that people are objecting
because of the area is specious. They are rejecting the project due to blind prejudice against Muslims. The attack on Muslims in the US is reminiscent of the early "Know Nothing Party" whereby stupid Protestants went after Catholics.

I am not a proponent of religion in any way but I do see that the Constitution provides for
the Separation of Church and State and I honor this. Muslims have the right to build cultural centers and mosques as much as Catholics can build their cathedrals or Protestants their churches and cultural centers. Synagogues and temples as well. This is still America.

As long as I don't have to attend any, I'm fine with it.

But make no mistake, the objection to this cultural center/mosque is bare and
unequivocal racism and prejudice on the part of those who reject it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:27 AM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:50 AM

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/28/racist-far-right-group-praised-by-ny-anti-mosque-organizers-riots-in-uk/#

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:54 AM

There's an election coming up here in the States. After that, this issue will have been forgotten. (Short term memory in America is the first thing to go).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:55 AM

Q askes where the Ground Zero boudaries are... Well, to Beck and and his midless Tea Party worshipers, it encompaaases the "Lower 48"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:58 AM

I can understand people's reaction and why it is such a hot potatoe for so many. But my take is different. To me

1) it tells the world that the Bill of Rights is alive and well in the US

2) That because of a few terrorists doing a terrible act of violence on us, we as a people will not change our views of others and their right to practice their faith

3) That we will not be victims to hate peddlers

I see positive only things here even though it is a sensitive subject

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 12:48 PM

Well, olddude, I think you may be a little premature on your optimistiv pronouncements............. it ain't over 'til its over.

The racist aresholes may still win this one.........

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

"Mindless Tea Party worshipers," "racist arseholes."

Mindless pronouncements like these only increase anger among the millions of middle of the road Americans who have yet to find
a leader that can bridge the divisions that are tearing the country apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:35 PM

The racists will never win. But they will cause pain and grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM

What divisions are "tearing the country apart?" Rich and poor? Black and white? Young and old? Is it really the case that the Tea Party activists are wanting to bridge those divisions rather than exacerbate them.

"...the millions of middle of the road Americans who have yet to find a leader that can bridge the divisions that are tearing the country apart." That sounds ominously familiar. Just take out that word "Americans" and replace it by "Germans", "Russians", "Italians"...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM

Get a grip Mr McGrath!

Its perfectly clear what Q means......and its certainly not totalitarianism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM

Is it really the case that the Tea Party activists are wanting to bridge those divisions rather than exacerbate them.

You're kidding, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM

I said nothing about "Tea Party activists."
I did speak of the middle of the road Americans. I believe that they constituted the majority at the rally.

The rally provided a focus for gathering to voice their displeasure with the present state of the U. S. (and also to praise the courage of the American soldier).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/0829/arson-tennessee-mosque-site/

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:21 PM

The Tea Party is a minority in the U.S. It doesn't represent the majority of Americans.
They seek no middle ground. If anything, they are puppets for the Kochs and the Armeys.
They are not a genuine grass roots organization but a reactionary offshoot of Americans For Prosperity. If you want to know who the Tea Party really is, please do your homework
and research it.

They are emphatically not middle of the road Americans but radical extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

The scary thing about it all is the powers behind mass movements like the Tea Party, as you say. The public opinion is manufactured, in many ways. Existing discontent is channeled by those whose agenda may be more self-serving.

Info here: Covert Operations; The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama (New Yorker magazine)

A good interview with Jane Meyer, the author of that article: Fresh Air with Terri Gross

She has also written critically about George Soros, a big funder from the other side of the spectrum. She said that the big difference was that Soros spoke with her and is very transparent about his political funding efforts. The Koch brothers, as a former employee apparently said, "are not only under the radar, they are underground", truly operating covertly.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM

W£hat does "middle of the road" actually mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
Middle-of-the-road:
Standing for or following a course of action midway between extremes; esp. being neither liberal nor conservative in politics.

At the present time, it means unhappy with current trends which are reducing their expectations and their numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM

Yes, but when has the general public by-in-large ever been happy with current trends?
This doesn't necessarily define what the Tea Party is. The middle-of-the-road designation for them doesn't add up. This is a fringe group that is dictated to by corporate interests
and fueled by racism, a weapon of mass distraction. When the next election is over, the Park51 controversy will have been forgotten.

Corporate interests are also being served by Saudi Arabia. Remember that the 911
perpetrators were from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. (At least this is what we are lead to believe since no reliable report has been issued on this subject). When the Islamic Cultural Center ceases to be a political football to defeat Obama, then the corporations will once
again back Saudi interests and defuse the Muslim-bashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM

Being midway between two opposing positions is quite consistent with being very extreme indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:25 PM

If the rally referred to above is the Beck rally rather than the Sharpton one, I doubt very much if there were very many middle-of-the-roaders there. That is not Mr. Beck's and Ms. Palin's audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM

"Middle of the road" is code for Tea Party... Just ask Glen Beck, he'll be perfectly willing to tell ya that...

"Middle of the road" should mean averaghe intellegence and average education which would mean that "missle of the road" should know about the Constitution...

(Well, Boberdz... "Middle of the road" does... It's the 2nd ammendment...)

See what I mean... Middle of the road ain't exacly in the middle these days... It in the right side ditch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:40 PM

None of this has anything to do with the Islamic Center, but the thread has digressed.
Art, I think you are wrong on that one. The middle-of-the-roaders, mostly the middle class, are angry and looking for a solution for their decreasing expectations. Of course Beck and Palin offer nothing of substance, but feel-good talky-talk. They do form a focus for their fears and worries.

Profits in businesses are down, money is short, people can't afford college for their kids, some are unemployed due to the world economic sickness, house payments are not being met. The middle class, to which they belong, has shrunk.
I hear from some of them, relatives and friends. Most are college graduates whose horizons have lowered and they are disenchanted with the government.
They blame government spending, immigration, fear increasing taxes, bemoan loss of jobs to other countries, globalization- although the latter are inevitable as others catch up and compete, and the downward trend in education leads to failure to find new directions.

They blame the administration, rightly or wrongly, and will vote for a change. Serious trouble is ahead for the party in power; some of its programs may be reversed.
Twenty-one states are considering suit over the health bill. The suits have little merit under the Constitution, but the bill could be reversed or changed by vote in Congress.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution, the moneyed interests have been blamed for subversion of public interest, but people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:19 PM

100% agreement here, Q...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

Q just gave probably the best description I have read in a long time
good job

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Slag
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 11:45 PM

Turn it around. The Dome of the rock has just been destroyed by some "mad" Jewish extremists in a hijacked 747. The table top land has been clear and now, thinks the Knesset, would be a good time to rebuild the Temple.

Of course a mosque should be built. It is what active Islamists have always done upon the conquest of an enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM

So the World Trade Center was actually a front for Christian (or non-Muslim, at least) holy ground? Gosh, I never realized that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM

people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them.

Middle-class Americans have been voting against their own interests since at least 1980, when Reagan rode them into power and started shifting money from the middle class to the rich, which shifting has continued to this very day. It is not in the best interest of most Americans to deregulate industry or reduce the taxes of the super-rich. Capping the Social Security tax was against the best interests of the middle class, for instance, but did the middle class toss out the party that did it? Like hell.

It is what active Islamists have always done upon the conquest of an enemy.

Unfortunately for your point of view, the people wanting to build the mosque aren't active Islamists. But there are lots of interesting things to see under the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM

The thing about the term "middle of the road" is that it implies moderation, and that's a false implication. The important thing is where the road is going.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM

McGrath, I heartily agree with your analysis of "middle-of-the-road". The old bromide is
"everything in moderation including moderation". Where the road is going is exactly right.

Q states: " The middle-of-the-roaders, mostly the middle class, are angry and looking for a solution for their decreasing expectations."

I think this has always been true regardless of who is in power. I would take exception to the idea that the Tea Party represents so-called "middle-of-the-road" Americans. This remains to be seen at the next election, regardless of what Fox News says.

The idea that all Islamists have an active enemy is no more true for Islam then it is for any other form of religion. The idea of an "enemy" is the problem of thought in the world.
As long as you can objectify anyone as an "enemy", then you have dismissed them. It's
a cop-out pseudo-solution.

It is inconsistent to protest the building of a mosque and not a temple, cathedral, shrine,
church or any other religious edifice. This protest runs contrary to the US Constitution.
I have not seen evidence that all Islamists are extremists. The 911 connection is an excuse to vilify Islamists and not a valid reason to prohibit this mosque.

BTW, Mr. Beck's and Palin's audiences are extremists. They feed on intolerance to make their case.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM

I agree completely with stringsingers comments about the mosque and freedom to build a religious edifice of any creed, so long as it is non-violent.
The many Muslims in NY city have just as much right to their places of worship as do Episcopalians, Greek Orthodox or any other religious group. I am a non-believer, but I hope we all have equal rights.

In the demonstration in Washington, most of the attendants were middle class, not extremists of any kind. They are unhappy, and Beck and Palin were a focus. That does not mean that those who gathered there, 300,000 at the minimum and from all parts of the country, will support the so-called 'tea party'. I do think most will vote Republican in the next election because of their dislike of current conditions, but they make up their own minds, and can be fickle.

So far the tea party is not a party, and I doubt that it will ever be more than a focus for discontent.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM

200...any more dead horses need beating?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM

"...most of the attendants were middle class, not extremists of any kind.

Two statements there, not one - "middle class" and "not extremists of any kind". Both may well be true, but one doesn't follow from the other. "Middle class" extremism has historically been the most frightening extremism of all.