BS: UK school meals

Subject: BS: UK school meals
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:35 AM

There is a campaign to protect nutritional standards

in school dinners.

Care to sign up?

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:59 AM

I've signed - good cause!

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:18 AM

Done

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM

The petition is also supported by Food for Life who have an award scheme for caterers that involves healthy eating, animal welfare and sourcing food locally. A big contrast to the 'buy it cheap and ask no questions' mentality that came in, in the 80s.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:16 AM

Lunches please.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:46 AM

Don't you mean 'lanches' Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:52 AM

Bring back 'frog spawn' and jam.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

'leather and bacon'

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: gnomad
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

Mystery meat and grass, followed by chocolate concrete with pink cowsturd.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:50 AM

why do children simply take thier own lunches, saves money, they get healthy meals//just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:57 AM

"why do children simply take thier own lunches, saves money, they get healthy meals//just a thought."

Because of the chavtastic standard of parenting in some places, kids get fed on takeaways at home. In other words school meals might be the only chance they get to have a meal resembling something like food.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:55 PM

I see your point, however I am concerned with the growing demmand that schools should take on all the things that some parents do badly. In many places children are now having three meals a day at school for the reasons that you give. Iam concerned that we shall soon have children who are totally raised by the state..Perhaps it is time to insist that parents take more responsibilty for the well being of thier children rather than pass these issues on to schools..who cannot, in many cases, bear the cost without detracting from the needs of education which is thier primary function.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lox
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 02:40 PM

"Iam concerned that we shall soon have children who are totally raised by the state..Perhaps it is time to insist that parents take more responsibilty for the well being of thier children rather than pass these issues on to schools"

Easy judgement to make, and very clearly not from a single parent or a parent that works unsociable hours.

Most of the time parents who do this have no choice as they have to work.

Likewise, most parents who don't cook great meals regularly are often too busy.

You cannot blame those who suffer from socio economic circumstances for the consequences of those circumstances.

I cook a full healthy hot tasty meal for my daughter every night.

I am lucky to have the freedom to cook my daughter her dinner and make her her packed lunch, but I have a lot more freedom than the average single parent living in Lewisham.

(PS I know this as I am a single parent living in Lewisham and I know many others not as fortunate as I)

In the winter however, she likes hot food at school, and prefers school dinners.

As long as the food is good, school dinners are a valuable part of school life.

That is why this campaign is a good idea and I have also signed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

"Most of the time parents who do this have no choice as they have to work.
Likewise, most parents who don't cook great meals regularly are often too busy."

Mmm, my take on that is quite different. In the Seventies I grew up on a crumby council housing estate where there were a number of single parent families - including mine. My Mum made appropriate efforts to feed me simple but healthy food, while some Mums would just lock the front door and leave the kids out all day while they were really busy smoking fags and gassing to their mates. They got let in at the end of the day for a plate of chips. I still have family on council estates in similar areas to those I was raised, and the situation is now more extreme because that culture of apathy now reigns far more strongly among the working-classes than it did prior to the Eighties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:43 PM

Actually this threadrift bares no relevance to the OP, and it was my fault too...

As far as the original topic is concerned the only important thing is that school is the place that parents are expected to entrust their children for the best part of the day.

One meal of the day falls into this time period.

And as schools are *responsible for the welfare* of children for this period, whatever they provide during that time aught to be beneficial, including any on-site nutrition offered.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

Our horror of horrors was "Cheesy pudding",

Mashed potatoe flavoured with cheese and with large pieces of semi-raw carrot mixed through it.
It had the consistency of plasticene and indeed we often used it to make model farms on our plates(the back of our forks made wonderful ploughing!!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:37 AM

memories of custard and gravy with a thick skin...... (Running to quickly find a bucket...)

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM

Lox, i totally disagree with you. This is about good and bad parents, parents who care for their children and parents who don't give a fuck, I'm afraid.

To have become a nation where school breakfast clubs now open at 6am...SIX in the MORNING, is atrocious.

Where is the family? Where is the care and love for that child? That child dropped off at 6am will have been up since 5am probably, getting ready....and his mother has no time to give him breakfast on the way to work???? He then has to stay in school, working hard all day long, untl when....? some schools are now open until 10pm...?????

Here in Torquay there are many young people, barely adults, who have children themselves, and they don't give a damn about those little ones. Maybe they come from homes that didn't give a damn about them either, probably so, sadly. But this can also happen in rich households

We've devalued motherhood, de-feminised our young girls, got everyone to believe that ALL must be out working, thus increasing the prices of everything, as the Corporate Bastards take in two salaries from each household, no longer just one. It's crap to say that bad mothering, or fathering, is because folks don't have the time. They have time for videos, time for computers, time for other things...

Home is where the heart is, or was...But now there is no-one at home, so there is no heart out there in our communities. Young women don't want to learn to cook, they want to be celebrities, or pole dancers, and they love crap food, so they give it to their kids. The Corporate Food Bastards have filled the fast food with chemicals to which the brain becomes addicted very, very fast, so normal food is not what folks want any longer, because it doesn't touch the same parts of the brain...It's so evil, and so corrupt!

CHILDREN are the most important thing in life. You never get that time back again, you can't rub it out and do it all over again..By all means have a breakfast club if you must, but have it after school has started, where kids are allowed to sit down and have a really good snack, with milk and nutritous food abounding..and let them eat it whilst they're learning too, just as they would at home...

Teach children not just about food, but about how to care for their future children. Teach them about love and being proud to be a mother or a father. Teach them how being a parent is the most important thing in life. Teach them NOT to have children, purely so they can get a flat, or whatever, but to ONLY have children if they are going to love them, more than anything else in life. Teach them to put their children first, above drugs, alcohol, computer games, cigarettes or nights out..Teach them to be the adult, when they have children. Teach them to realise that sticking their kid into school at 6am is WRONG, wholly and unconditionally WRONG...and that to live in a tent in the middle of a forest would be a damn site better than giving in to the kind of crap that is going on at the moment..because the generation that's being 'raised by the state' at present is going to be soooo bloody angry and uncaring, come their days of parenthood....

But don't ever use lack of money for being a bad parent, because there is NO excuse for being a bad parent....and I know that some of what I've written may upset some folks, but we have to get real here, and start fighting for what is truly important in life...and the institutionalising of our children is deeply, shit scaringly wrong, as is the dumbing down of Motherhood and the denial of feminine love, feminine care being oh so very, every important to the survival of the human race...

Down witih Feminism. Up with Caring, Loving Femininity and Strong, Proud Mothers!

And also, up with the wonderful Jamie Oliver for his absolute passion about children and what they are eating, and how so many of their parents are killing them...because he has the guts to stand up and say "ENOUGH!!" This video will blow you away.........I'm off to sign that petition now...                                                            

Jamie Oliver's brilliant TED speech on Food and our Children

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,bubblyrat
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM

What about "fathering" then ?? There seems to be precious little of that about these days,for whatever reason,and scant mention of it on this thread. Far from eliciting sympathy for their cause, the feminist Harpies have unwittingly helped to destroy one of the bases of the very society they hoped to improve , ie the "nuclear" family,with a mum & a dad fulfilling traditional roles in the bringing up of children.One hardly dares to even MENTION the concept nowadays !!
   My own experience of school meals in the 1950s ? Fine ! --it was never going to be "Fine Dining", but it was simple,healthy fare,and nobody died of malnutrition ; more importantly,perhaps,there were NO obese ten-year-olds !!

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 03:00 PM

I can't find any evidence of a school breakfast club that starts at 6.00 a.m.

Can anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lox
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:49 PM

Well I know single parent women who have two jobs.

Every waking hour is spent scraping enough money together to try and create opportunities for their kids that they didn't have.

We middle classers with good educations etc can sit back and say "well actually the research says that a good relationship with mum is so much better etc etc"

But thats the luxury of not being IN that particular hole.

This is just information - not an opinion.

You judge them any way you like.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:55 PM

Late in the year for cuckoos, particularly in Devon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:38 AM

"school breakfast clubs now open at 6am...SIX in the MORNING, is atrocious."

Hadn't heard of that LC, but I have to say it sounds like quite a good idea to me. I've heard of after school study clubs, where children can get help with homework. I think that's a good idea too, especially if it means working parents don't have to find extra money for child care. I know you think school is a bad place based on your own personal experiences, and there will always be those who don't cope well, but it isn't for most.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 06:50 AM

The BBC did a News article 'live' from a school, somewhere in England, where the children were already busy working, obviously they were working for the cameras too. But the chap stated this Breakfast Club within this school opened at 6am. I thought I was hearing things, but that is what he said. Later, at work I mentioned it to one of the other girls there, she's also seen it, also couldn't believe the 6am start and then she said.."And did you hear him say about the school still being open until 10pm, for parents to pick their children up?"

I've found more than a few 'nurseries' that open from 6am to 6.30pm...and just last night I was talking to my best friend, who's worked in her local playgroup (or whatever communist name they give them these days - is it still pre-school learning alliances?) worked their for over 10 years.

In that time she's seen massive changes. Firstly, they now take *babies*, alongside toddlers...They too are opening far earlier than they once did. Parents are becoming ever more demanding, now wanting charts to know when their children have been to the toilet, both minor and major productions, and when they last had their nappies changed. (!!!)

Many parents are becoming more and more rude to the staff as the demands continue to grow. ALL children now have end of term reports on them, and are constantly 'assessed'.

Roll back to when I used to help run a playgroup. It was staffed by the Mums who sent their children there, on a rota basis, run by one full time Mum who was the main leader. There was no OFSTED, no assessments, no reports, NO BABIES, no 2 people accompanying every child to the toilet to ensure 1 wasn't a paedeophile (!!!) If a child fell over, or got upset, guess what we did??? We hugged and kissed them, just as if they were our own little ones, NOT in sexual way, but in a maternal way, as folks have been doing for centuries, and as many folks in other countries where the world hasn't gone insane, still do.

No child was abused, injured or scarred for life. No parent was resentful or demanding.

If you break the natural bond between mother and child you will, in most instances, cause enormous problems.

When you have a child you don't just give birth to that child, but to a whole new set of emotions and instincts..Maternal Instincts. Nature does this to ensure the survival of the species, which is why women, whether folks like it or not, for the most part, are the better carers of babies and small children, because we are programmed to sense things differently to men.

Fathers are equally important, but in very different ways, and they fulfill other areas of the child's life which a Mother cannot do to the same level. It is what nature intended, and we have, for some extraordinary reason broken that natural bond, destroyed that natural instinct...or at least, we like to think we have...

The trouble is, those instincts are still inside most women who have children, and they are depressed, angry and resentful at having to hand over their children to others, because they have no other choice but to go out and earn the money to put food on the table or help to pay the mortgage, or both.

And so, the crazy rules become more and more demanding, more and more keeping the carers from showing the children any affection at all, lest they get reported for child molestation or worse...It is breaking not only the bond between Mother and Child, but between Child and Adult.

I am, before everyone squawks at me, well aware there are some women who are absolutely shite mothers. I am also well aware that there are some men who make far better 'mothers' than their wives, partners, or who have no choice but to take on that role, due to tragedy of some kind where the mother is no longer around....so please don't folks get all upset.

I am generalising here, and generally, it IS the Mothers, the women, who have that Maternal Instinct, who are 'connected' to their child in an almost 'telepathic' way, by emotions that only come when the child is born.

If David Cameron wants a Big Society, then ALL mothers should be offered the choice of whether they want to stay at home with their children and be helped financially to do that..and I don't just mean 1 or 2 years, I'm talking at least 10 years, or until the child starts school at a decent age, and no child should be in school at 4 years old, it's preposterous.

Babies should be with their Mums. Fact.
Children need their Mothers around as much as possible. Fact.
Mothers are important. Fact.
Fathers are important. Fact.
They are each designed by nature to fulfill different roles. Fact.
Some are capable of fulfilling both roles. Fact
Some very much are not. Fact.

I'm not scared to stand up and say it's all gone shittily and mind blowingly wrong, and the traumas from this piece of idiocy now reach into all corners of what was once a 'society'....

Once, most Mothers were at home. THEY were the Community. They knew everyone around, they spotted the strangers, they were alert to danger, they supported each other...kids knew that if Mum wasn't there, they could go round to Mrs. soandso down the road and she'd look after them until Mum got back...It was a strong, united community.

Yes, there were faults, there always are, but it was one helluva lot better than we have now!

But then, if you want to bring a country to its' knees you have to first divide the families up, separate the child from the 'nuclear' family, as someone once said to me. That way, the State, or whoever is really in charge of The State, has a clean board on which to work.

Never has my country been so disunited. Never has it been so dumbed down, so damned easy to manipulate, en masse. But, that has happened...and part of the reason it has happened is because we have broken nature-natural family ties to the point of non-existance in some cases..

We have done so at our peril.

Crow Sister, any mother who puts their child into care at 6am in the morning does not have my respect. YOU, the parent, should be there in the morning, having breakfast, talking, having contact with your child.

A few years back this breakfast club thing would have been thought of as shocking, now it is being thought of as totally acceptable and is hugely on the increase.

What comes next...5am starts...all night/all day caring institutes for your children?

Fuck, just give birth to 'em and hand 'em over. That way you can get on with your life just as you did before. Visit them twice a year, take them a prezzie and tell the world how well Little Johnny and Jemima are doing, how proud you are of them, what a Glowingly Great Parent you are...

But hey, when Little Johnny and Jemima turn into the school bullies, or want nothing to do with you from a very early age, look to yourself, don't blame them....

As someone said in another thread...such wise words..

"Hurt people hurt people"

And boy! are we HURTING so many of our children at the moment!


And now, back to school dinners...

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:38 AM

Aye well said ya wee momma grizzly!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:41 AM

But while we have a society which worships money, our weans will continue to suffer emotionally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:08 AM

This is going to seem strange but I really loved school dinners back in the 60's especially the sponge puddings. But then we didn't get turkey twizzlers. We had chips only once in the week and salad a couple of times and either roasts or casseroles. Hungarian goulash was a particular favourite of mine. Obviously we had things we didn't like frog spawn or macaroni with cannon balls (sultanas). The cafeteria choice system was just being introduced as I was leaving and it was still reasonably healthy. Chips were still on the menu once a week so the school still controlled it.

Children also had free at one time before Maggie Thatcher brought it to an end which was a brilliant way to start the day not only for the protein but to be chosen as milk monitor brought a bit of order in the morning. I don't see a problem with children having a little something in the morning even if it is a piece of fruit and a biscuit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 06:42 AM

All four of my children have been to nursery from being babies and all have turned out to be happy, intelligent and well-balanced (well, considering who their father is) adults, so Lizzie's all-encompassing condemnation of the education system is, as always, blinkered and one-sided.

As for school dinners - they were practically inedible when I was at school in the 60s so I do think there has been a great improvement since.

BTW, do any of the "let's slag off modern mums" brigade actually have children in school at the moment - or have they even been into a school recently? Just interested to know where your well-informed opinions are coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:29 AM

Are you trying to say that there is a substitute for a natural mother?
There are always some, who for various reasons....mainly psychological, do not take to motherhood, but in general terms there is no real substitute.

Lizzie is right....I think we have yet to see the results of the abdication of parenthood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM

"I think we have yet to see the results of the abdication of parenthood. "

What abdication of parenthood is that? Sending your child to a nursery or child-minder is not an abdication of parenthood, it is, for many people, a sensible and often necessary part of responsible parenting. For my children it was the beginning of friendships that have been a rock throughout school and beyond. Children have been going to nurseries and child-minders for generations with no ill effects. There seems to be an awful lot of self-styled childcare experts out there who want to tell us what we should be doing when they have absolutely no practical experience. Why don't you just mind your own fucking business - I just wonder how your children will turn out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 08:10 AM

There isn't anything wrong with nurseries as long as it is well run, which they have to be or they would not be allowed to be open. There are strict rules with regard to health and safety that apply to the running of them so if I had to do that I would have no qualms about sending a child of mine to one (although those days are gone now). It is especially good for the only child who can learn to make friendships and share things and learn co-operation with other children. But unfortunately there are some who operate as legitimate childminders who are not qualified. Good parents would never cast children off just anywhere without making sure that the surroundings or staff are going to be adequate for their child.

Playgroups are also good for teaching children how to socialise but unfortunately they are usually run by local charities so there is only so much that they can do with children. They are not considered to be educational like a nursery would be, i.e. they cannot teach children to write their name or about numbers. The start time is usually about 8.30 or 9.00 am and finishes at about 12.00 which for some working parents would be no benefit at all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 02:27 PM

The upper classes have been abandoning their children for someone else to look after from an early age for years.

Somehow it never counts as abandoning children when they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM

"...Children have been going to nurseries and child-minders for generations with no ill effects...."

And children have been drinking (and drugging) themselves senseless, throwing up their souls on our city streets for those same generations, as never before.

I disagree absolutely with your outlook on that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:15 AM

"I disagree absolutely with your outlook on that."

But that's based on your own personal grudges, not on any logical or rational evidence or on the experiences of the vast number of people whose children turn out happy, well-adjusted and successful in their chosen lifestyles. Sorry, Lizzie, but you really are a bitter and prejudiced person.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 03:29 AM

To counter Lizzie's doom and gloom about our education system, here's some extracts from the 2010 OFSTED Report on my daughter's school. She, and quite a few of the other pupils in the school, went to the local nursery from an early age. It was there that she learned to read before she went to school and is now on the Gifted and Talented Register in Literacy. The school takes a wide range of pupils with very different backgrounds. This, of course, is just one example, but I know from mrsleveller's 15 years' experience of organizing Helping in Schools and Special Educational Needs courses in schools, mainly in deprived areas, that it is not an isolated example. But, of course, this sort of thing doesn't make headlines in the Daily Mail or The Sun.

"This is an inclusive school, which has significant strengths in pastoral areas."
"Pupils make a good contribution to the school and wider community."
"Good levels of care, guidance and support have a positive impact on the personal development of pupils."
"Pupils feel safe and have an excellent understanding of how to live healthily."
"Class teachers, senior staff and governors continue to improve their communication with parents."
"Governors challenge appropriately and support well the life and work of the school."
"Recent improvements to the curriculum have made a positive impact on standards."
"Pupils thoroughly enjoy the wide range of activities the school provides and show enthusiasm for the many sporting activities that are available."
"Relationships in lessons between adults and pupils are good and help to engender good relationships between pupils."
"Teachers' increasingly effective use of assessment data to guide and support pupils is a growing strength."
"The curriculum is good. There is a good range of after school clubs and residential experience for older pupils, which makes a good contribution to enriching the curriculum."

Oh, and the school dinners aren't half bad, either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:58 AM

"Sorry, Lizzie, but you really are a bitter and prejudiced person."

Thanks very much.

No, I'm not, but I *am* angry, and I have every right to be. There's a huge difference. Do not forget that I have always praised good teachers and good schools, but I have no time for the rest..

I'm also a realist and I refuse to be one of those people who shouts out how the glass is *always* half filled, when so many of our children in this country, and others, are feeling WAY more than 'half empty'.

I have no more time right now to write further...other than to say that Sidmouth College gets glowing reports, just like the one you posted above, every year. It means little to those who are so often inside the situation, knowing exactly what is REALLY happening within some schools, many schools around this country.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:46 AM

When I was at school, girls only were taught how to cook. It was called Domestic Science and then later renamed Home Economics we were taught all the basic cooking skills. As part of this we had to turn the tables on the teachers and plan, prepare and cook a meal with dessert in a mock up of a flat. It was good training because it had everything in it, furniture, a kitchen area and cleaning stuff to tidy up and clean at the end of using the flat. We would invite a teacher of our choice but the problem was the same favourite nice female teacher would get invited time after time. She did appreciate it but it wasn't helping with her waist-line at all, so later she would either hide whenever she saw a group of girls making a bee-line for her or try to find a good excuse to not be available!

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:23 AM

I am saddened by Patsy's attack on Playgroups, as if 'teaching children to read and write' were the be all and end all of preschool education.
I agree that they are not the answer for working mums (though many are exanding their hours).
But they are a useful addition to the experience of a child with a stay-at-home carer. They are Ofsted inspected, the staff are trained.
Education at this age is about what the children learn from their own efforts, the choice of play materials is important as is the help in putting that learning into words, when that is appropriate. Many toys and games are specifically designed to teach numbers, fine motor co-ordination (vital for later writing skills) and many other things. Equipment that can be used independantly allows children to learn at their own pace the thing that they are ready for NOW, and to take responsibility for their own learning. The group activities, games and discussions gives them a chance to learn to conform. The voluntary ethic which set them up and the parenting experience which the helpers bring with them may be better than a minimum wage profit driven nursery employing school leavers - but that would be a wild generalisation comparing the best of one with the worst of the other. In fact there may be little difference between the best of both.
Neither can give children the one-to-one attention from someone who knows them as well as a well motivated, observant carer. But they can certainly add breadth to that care.

Subject: RE: BS: UK school meals
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 10:42 AM

Mo I wasn't attacking it I was just saying what the difference is especially if parents need full time hours of nursery care. I did assist at a playgroup did the Foundation course and I loved it, it was ideal for me and my youngest son and then I carried on assisting there when he went to school which conveniently was virtually nextdoor to it and in a village community so it was great. But really what I was saying is it depends on what is best for the parents themselves and the hours they work. The playgroup people do a good job and because of my son's playgroup we did prevent something worse happening to an abused little girl. At least when she was there she had a few hours of happiness.