BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:46 AM

see Little Hawk, it doesn't matter what you say, you're dangerous (tho I think Slag may have mis read something there).

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:02 PM

I don't follow you, Slag. ;-) What part of what I said was dangerous?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM

That's a dangerous announcement to make there, LH. Your door buzzer should be sounding about now and will it ever stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:11 PM

Freda!!!!!!!!!!! Sheer brilliance! LOL!

Great list, Ed. Some of my heroes are on that list. And I like Brad Pitt's comment on the subject of why he and Angelina have not married. Cleverly put!

It can have a lot to do with reaching one's years of maturity. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I was terribly troubled at times about being alone...not that I wanted to marry...but I did want a steady girlfriend! Now I feel fine alone. I think the difference has partly to do with the insecure mindset of youth...and partly to do with the fact that one's sex drive is a lot stronger during those youthful years. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:54 AM

Some resources on the topic:
Famous unmarried
(including Joan of Arc)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:39 AM

**trying to suppress giggling**

...nawww...not trying at all.

very cute, clever & creative, Freda....

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM

Why LH should not get married.

Why Gay People Shouldn't Get Married

1. Being Little Hawk is not natural. Regular married people always reject unnatural things like philosophy, folk music, and chimps.

2. Little Hawk's marriage would encourage people to be like Little Hawk, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing Little Hawk's marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to question accepted norms, admire William Shatner and grow their hair long.

4. Conventional marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, chimps still can't marry Winona Ryder, and divorce is still illegal.

5. Conventional marriage would be undermined if a Little Hawk marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Conventional marriages are valid because they promulgate overpopulation. Little Hawk shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously Little Hawk parents will raise Little Hawk children, who may listen to Bob Dylan, Buffy St Marie, watch Tarzan and otherwise subvert the dominant paradigm.

8. A Little Hawk marriage could confuse the next generation. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. A Little Hawk marriage could lead people to think in dangerous abstractions, and ask complex questions about matter, consciousness, and where to get a good guitar.

9. Children can never succeed without a clear male role model at home. A man with a diffident manner and ambiguous concepts could lead our youth to become flexible and to consider giving up that accountancy career.

10. A Little Hawk marriage would change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Like reading the Coles notes version of LoTR.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:07 AM

Slag, It was, as stated by him, in his 'years of maturity'!

BTW, Hi!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:05 AM

Hey GfS, was that between dumping his wife and before marrying his cousin? or after marrying his cousin? When you have the whole universe to diddle why limit yourself? Me? I'm cerain the universe is curvered.

Yeah, LH! It is surprizing how many folks around here don't get the concept of a joke or word play. I'm baffled! So I'll hold my piece. Or, if you're Canadian surprising!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 12:07 AM

Yo-Ho!!!!

"This solitude, in which I now live, is painful in youth, but delicious in the years of maturity" -- Albert Einstein

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM

Hmm. That's too bad. Doesn't give one much to work with, does it?

I've encountered people I can't work with in this life, and I know I can't, so I just don't go around them if I can help it. I avoid them. But I don't judge them for it, I just avoid them, that's all.

I wonder if you ever saw the movie "Monster" with Charlize Theron? It's a simply incredible, moving, but deeply depressing film. It sure makes you think. There are some situations you just can't fix. Maybe you can't even understand them. Maybe no one can. But if you can forgive them, it takes you a lot farther than if you can't.

And I keep trying to learn that as best I can.

You know what I do try to do? I try to find people and situations that I truly love and believe in and focus on that. When I do find such people or situations, it seems to transform all of life and lift things up to a whole new level. It's like flying on your own wings. I keep watching for that and hope I don't miss it when the chance comes along. Gotta make magic. That's what we're all here for, to make magic. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:55 PM

I would to, but my spoiled pussy relatives coddle their children to the point that they will grow up as they did... snarky and disrespectful... so I don't bother with them. I ignore them as much as possible. Unfortunate for the young kids but if I were to say anything to educate ANY of them, they would all take it wrong. They know better because they were not taught better and never experienced "worse".

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:43 PM

I make a great uncle, gnu. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 08:29 PM

Ed... thanks for sharing that.

LH... same deal, but I think you would have made a great father. And your unborn are bereft of that gift. Perhaps society is as well as we need well adjusted and intelligent citizens which seem to be in too short a supply these days.

Again, sorry for being toooo serious. No more of that from me.

It might compute but it doens't get one through.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:12 PM

My mother didn't have any particular desire to have children, gnu...so I don't think that not having grandchildren has been much of a mental burden to her... ;-) My father, on the other hand, was eager to have children, because that was a big thing to him...continuing the family line and all that. He was very traditional, and he certainly would have wanted grandchildren. He wanted to have three children, my mother wanted zero children. I have to wonder if they ever discussed it before getting married! If so, my father probably got the wrong impression. They ended up with one child...me.

Now, my mother was well able to commit to raising a child...once I came along...but her original idea before marriage was not to have any children at all, and she wasn't the least bit worried about "breaking the circle of life". It just didn't work out quite as she had planned, and she adapted.

As for me, I think the circle of life is spiritual, not physical, and I don't think everyone has to have a child to complete themselves or keep that circle whole, but that's for each person to work out for themselves.

I think I've lived before and will live again, and again, and again after that. Therefore I don't need to achieve some measure of immortality or continuance through fathering children in any one physical lifetime. I've seen examples of people living remarkably gifted lives, but not having children, and it seems to me that they are doing just as much for the circle of life as other people are doing, because it's how you contribute while you're here that counts.

I do understand that for most people their children are the light of their lives, I get that, and I respect it fully.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

Your welcome, Linn. Thanks for posting them in the first place so I could copy/paste them in here.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM

Thanks, Jeri, for posting those lyrics -- otherwise I would have. It's the flip of the 45 "The Plum Island [Massachusetts -- off Newburyport] National Anthem. Richard Johnson was a local (Newburyport) singer, songwriter, guitarist in the '70s who now has a prison ministry, I believe.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM

I am not now married...but have been and have two kids, and grand kid.

Since marrage...I have lived common law twice, once for ten years, more recently for 12 years (she was formally married, with no kids, also). We see no need to marry, but it could happen some day. It would be something special, between us, though.

Am I against marriage. No. But, I see no religious or social reason to do so.

Am I sure of the benefits/risks? In today's world, No, I am not..

It is a personal choice. And to me, should be steeped in trust and sincere discussion.

My daughter has lived with our grand daughters father for three years. They were engaged, to be married, this summer....from no pressure from us. I have no problem with that.

There was a time when people/society would have "issues" with common law relationships...but, that is dwindling in many areas.

Could a relatioinship that was going good, change with marriage? That's a good question I don't have an answer for. Mostly, because there are many different situations, and expectations. IMO, no person could answer that, but the people involved...and even then it is sketchy. Many folks simply reason...it's going well as it is now, why change it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:38 PM

I'll get serious for a minute... I am remiss and remorseful.

I won't tell the story as it is long and involves heartbreak. I did my duty to my family and that involved giving up my true love and our future. That was a big mistake because, in the end, it was the wrong thing to do. 20/20 eh?

Suffice it to say that I truly rue the fact that I did not fulfill my most important duty in my life. I did not put grandchildren in my mother's arms.

It just happened.

As far as "Why I sould not marry..." ?

I can't think of one good reason outside of knowing you would be spawning sommat vile, whatever that might be.

Sorry for being serious. Just a lotta shit going on today in the family and I have been "thinking"... sometimes a stupid endeavour.

But, I felt I had to say, ... "most important duty in my life.", because I am coming to the realization that it is.

When you break the circle of life, you break all... including yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:10 PM

Yep. All of the above, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:06 PM

The decision to marry is, at its best, a courageous decision that two people make together...not just to have sex, for heaven's sake!...but to share every practical aspect and responsibility of life together. That's a really major step. It's a step that requires maturity and a lot of hard work and compromise. It requires a lifetime of committment to getting along with and compromising with one other person, no matter what comes along. It's about one hell of a lot more than the mere sex life of two individuals or the quality of sex they are having!

Now, I was aware of all of that by the time I was maybe 15 or 16, and I gave it some considerable thought. My feeling was that I wasn't mature enough to take that step yet, and that I probably wouldn't be that mature for some considerable time yet...if ever! And I had serious doubts about the whole institution of marriage, because my parents' marriage did not strike me as a very happy one...it didn't inspire any confidence in me regarding the concept of marriage.

I figured I'd be a lot happier on my own. And I have held to that, though I've lived with 3 different girlfriends for extended periods of time.

If I'd had intentions of raising children, then I would have married. I did not.

There are many ways of finding real intimacy, and many ways of overcoming loneliness. Marriage is only one of them. It's the conventional pattern that most people follow, but I've never been much interested in following convention. It's always been natural to me to be an outsider, and it doesn't mean I have to be lonely. Matter of fact, I've been a lot lonelier in company sometimes than the loneliness I have experienced in solitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:39 PM

For a thread that was meant to be a "joke" this certainly has become interesting and, at times, serious.

There is a story about an elderly Quaker woman who, when asked why she had never married, remarked, "Because it would take an awfully good man to be better than none."

I have found that an "awfully good man" is still an awful lot of work.

How narcissistic each person is, or is not, and how hard each person is willing and able to work on a relationship, or not....

The wonderful Oliver Sachs is a happy "singleton" as he relates it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:12 PM

Well, I think sex tends to go downhill from about the time you start taking the other person for granted.... (or they start taking you for granted) (or both). That might have something to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:10 PM

LH... I found that it sucked... I'll stop there as there are toooo many ways to go with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:04 PM

I can't really comment on that, Ed, because I've never had sex within marriage...therefore have no basis of comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

In some provinces in Canada, where I suspect some "marriage uncertain" mudfolks are hiding out, there are legal differences (property stuff) between shacking up (aka common law) and marriage.

Outside of that, I hear that sex outside marriage is better. But, I cannot agree or disagree with proponents of these mutterings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:22 PM

Marry in Hastings - repent at Leicester...

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

LOL!!! Great stuff, folks! I specially like your post, erbert. Now we're getting somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:53 AM

Marry in haste,
Repent at leisure.

Mind you, I married twice. Second time, less expectation I suppose, so far less stressful.

That said, I always wanted to live longer. At least being married, it seems that way..........

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:57 AM

Some people are very happy in solitude. When I was separated from the last husband I thought there could be nothing better than being alone.   

Then TheSilentOne happened! Unsought, unlooked for and not encouraged. We just happened. And so the happiness I didn't know could exist WITH a partner also happened.

10 year anniversary of the day we met New Year's Day 2011. And 8 years married same day.

So happiness is definitely possible with or without another.

You go on being happy Little Hawk... where ever and to whom ever that happy journey leads you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 02:42 AM

joke !!!!????????????????????

I'll have you know my lady wife and myself are only too determined
to desparately find something tolerable to enjoy about 30 years married life together.

joke, indeed.. marriage is no happy laughing matter,
it's more serious than gout or piles or bankruptcy, you liberated free love long haired hippy guirar strumming colonial.

How dare you mock the sanctity of the lords vengeful wrath upon the vile unholy pleasures
of the joining together of man and woman.

WE will pray for you immoral soul.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM

Yes, Janie. ;-) Keep in mind that my thread title was a deliberately satirical response to that other thread title: "Why Gays should Not Marry, simplified." It was, in effect, a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Janie
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 12:22 AM

Ain't no "shoulds" to it, LH. Only choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Janie
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 12:06 AM

Mr. Kellog appears to have opposed both prudery and masterbation!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 11:52 PM

I think there was an absolutely enormous amount of illicit and very enthusiastic sex happening in the Victorian age, they were just pretending otherwise when it came to presenting outward appearances. The young Queen Victoria herself, for example, seems to have absolutely loved having sex with her husband as often as they could possibly manage, so it's ironical that the age that bears her name is associated in people's minds with prudery and a negative attitude toward sexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 09:49 PM

definition of "unnecessary sex"

Anything that is more than what YOU do...

But yes, the Victorians did think that way....officially. Behind the scenes they were a naughty lot.
   The attitude was exemplified in a book of advice....(which I have an original copy of)

Plain Facts for Old and Young:
Embracing the Natural History and Hygiene of Organic Life,
by J. H. Kellogg, M. D. (1892, Burlington, Iowa, U.S.A.)

This was old 'tie their hands' Kellog....who urged parents to spy on their kids to prevent them from engaging in 'the solitary vice', and if necessary, tie their hands to the bed post at night.

(you can read the whole thing online, it says.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:53 PM

"From the Victorian viewpoint sex was bad - and not just bad, but bad for you. Doctors often advised that avoiding sex was good for your long-term health and that you should have sex less than 10 times per year (or whatever number the doctor picked). Based on that, it may make sense for the health-conscious to avoid unnecessary sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:33 PM

"celibate"... gee, that reminds me... about 14 years now. I REALLY wanna win that lotto.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM

I'm already married, for one thing....

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:27 PM

Let's be clear. gnu said "...celebrate theirs in return". It was not celibate .

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:16 PM

"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."
                  -Socrates

Some of us got both... *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: gnu
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM

LH... I dunno why you want to drag me into this "discussion". It makes no never mind. I simply said it's too bad you haven't found a "soul mate" yet to share your wonderful life with, and celebrate theirs in return.

Calm down. You'll be okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:00 PM

Well, "robbed" works but it should have been "rubbed", of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:59 PM

You'd like Jean Paul Sartre who said "Hell is other people."

You've been hanging around Chongo too long. He's robbed off on you. As long as there are Bonobos, I suppose Chongo is also very happily unwed also.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:49 PM

I admire you for giving up your virginity, LH, when there were probably plenty of people around willing to pay good money for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM

ANd he's been working ever since to get it back.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM

Hey! I gave up my virginity some time ago. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:57 PM

To live a barren sister all your life,
Chanting faint hymns to the cold fruitless moon.
A Midsummer Night's Dream, 1. 1


The lunatic, the lover, and the poet
Are of imagination all compact.
A Midsummer Night's Dream, 5. 1

But earthlier happy is the rose distilled
Than that which withering on the virgin thorn
Grows, lives, and dies in single blessedness.
A Midsummer Night's Dream, 1. 1

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:52 PM

josepp - That pretty well describes how I feel about it too. Best if she and I both have our own places, in all probability. I simply can't fathom going through all those prenuptials and social arrangements. It's nobody else's business anyway if 2 people wish to be involved with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I should not marry, simplified.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:49 PM

You gotta be kidding! There is nothing sad about it at all, gnu. Maybe you are undervaluing life itself in some way? Is life not special? I think the greatest love of all is to love all of life. I haven't succeeded in doing that yet...but I see the possibility of doing it shining like snow on the distant mountaintop. That mountain is climbable. It just takes a lot of hard work and a lot of courage to get there.

It takes very little hard work (perhaps a little couraqe) to leap into yet one more romantic involvement...as evidenced by how very common they are, and by how many of them do not pan out as expected.

Regarding (legal) marriage: I've see how it can keep 2 people together who don't even like or respect each other anymore....I've seen a lot of that around me, and THAT is sad!....but I don't see that it is needed at all to keep 2 people together who do genuinely like and respect each other. They would stay together regardless, wouldn't they? They don't need the marriage contract to do that.

Therefore, it's an option. A culturally ritualized option. But it's not a necessary option, not for me.

I'd be old and bitter now if I had married any one of the handful of people I thought were "the one"...and I DID think so at the time...yessir, I sure did! ;-) But I did not marry any of them. And a damn good thing I didn't, because those marriage(s) would have failed. That is 100% certain. Hindsight doesn't suck, in my case, it gives me useful perspective on some major mistakes I managed to avoid making.