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BS: Ubuntu Hell
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Subject: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:06 PM I am slowly coming to the conclusion that Linux, and Linux apps, are written by people who are too stupid to work for Microsoft. And I don't have a terribly high opinion of Microsoft products. Currently trying to run a speech-recognition system called "simon". Before you can run it you have to set up a model. What's a model? Help doesn't say. Wait -- here's a glossary! Oh wait, "model" is not listed in the M's. Hey, I can search!... Oh wait, to search I first need to create an index. But stop! It can't because the file kde_application_manuals doesn't exist. I have to first install the package containing it. Which package would that be? Where can I find it? It don't say. Aha! Google to the rescue! Except, no, wait, this page assumes I already have kde_application_manuals installed, and am trying to configure them/it. Apparently they're for KDE. What's KDE? Aha! It's the graphic user interface I DON'T have. (I'm running gnome.) And this page doesn't help. And this page doesn't help. And this page doesn't help. There is nothing in the first 5 screens that is even close to fitting the bill. But wait, what I really want is to know what a "simon" model is. Google to the rescue! Except, no, wait. There is nothing in the first 5 screens that ... hey, where have I heard that before? Welcome to Ubuntu Hell. There's no way to find the answer on your own! There's nobody to ask! There is no manual! You entered when you installed Ubuntu on your computer. You will never leave until you scrape that crap off your hard drive and install Windows, because you suck and our software isn't designed for you, it's designed for the people who designed it, a closed circle of misanthropic fiends whose only joy in life is to make otherwise intelligent people feel inferior to themselves. Did I mention how I can't have two sources of sound at the same time? If I open a YouTube window, I lose all the sounds in the chatroom that tell me (say) when someone comes in or starts typing. There are plenty of places in all the online Ubuntu/Linux online communities that have at least one thread about this problem. In none of them is it solved, except for the ones which, when I try the solution, it doesn't work for me. Oh, did I mention Ubuntu/Linux online community "help" threads? Those have a most interesting dynamic. You ask a question. Some bright and helpful person gives the only answer they have. You try it and it doesn't work. Some second person gives their sole answer. You try it and it doesn't work. The thread then goes silent for eternity. These communities are littered with threads whose last post is from 2006 and consists of some variation on, "That didn't work. Help?" Ticking down, Ubuntu. If this bullshit keeps up until April 1, you're out the Windows. No fooling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:22 PM And if you post in a forum about Linux, you'll get 27 suggestions to "try Knoppix...or MEPIS..or Debian..XuBuntu...or openSUSE or Mandriva or..... some other. I did read in the alt.comp.freeware newsgroup, one suggestion that the alt.os.linux.ubuntu newsgroup is pretty helpful..and one other that the http://ubuntuforums.org/ is pretty good. I see all sorts of good ideas in Linux, but you said it as well as anyone I've ever heard in that post.. You entered when you installed Ubuntu on your computer. You will never leave until you scrape that crap off your hard drive and install Windows, because you suck and our software isn't designed for you, it's designed for the people who designed it, a closed circle of misanthropic fiends whose only joy in life is to make otherwise intelligent people feel inferior to themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:31 PM mouser, I've heard the same about Ubuntu, from a guy who works on computers, even installs Linux, and highly recommends them..BUT..he was saying the same thing about Ubuntu as you are saying, He recommends Linux 'Mint'....so he tried it on a laptop, that blew an XP and "Golly Me...it works just great!!" Get rid of the Ubuntu, and get "Mint". He also HIGHLY recommends Linux over Microsoft. ...and for God's sakes, if you don't like the recommendation, let's not bitch at each other over it, OK?..just tryin' to help ya' GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:36 PM ..ALSO...once you install it, you have to go online to update all the drivers, and stuff...However, he even had problems with Ubuntu, after he went through the normal procedures. Don't forget to go online, though, if you install a Linux. Ok, done. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 16 Jan 11 - 11:56 PM Yeah maybe i should switch to another distro. I think I should find a way to determine which has the best (most helpful) online community. I think I could get over the initial hump in the learning curve if I could just have somebody who is actually willing to help me with it, and doesn't give up when it gets hard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: EBarnacle Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:16 AM I have gotten two different source disks from Ubuntu. In niether case did the Ubuntu install but the open office which was on the disks did install and works perfectly. I will get open office online without bothering with the disks in the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:27 AM I'd have thought Ubuntu has the broadest and most helpful online community. It's not my choice of Linux though. I find OpenSuse easier especially with Yast, plus I prefer the KDE desktop (and unlike Ubuntu/Kubuntu[which I think is poor], you can install both desktops plus others on one system)... I think the official KDE support forum is a bit "serious" though. Really, with Linux though, I think you are best of trying a few to find out which distro works best for you. --- As for the sound, I've a feeling flash can get in the way and block sound for other programs and it's not clear to me how the browser plugin is configured. It's working for me with other apps atm but I have had problems in the past... I think one possibility might be to install pulse audio but I'm unsure.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:42 AM One page I saw about it said "Uninstall PulseAudio!" So I did. No change. Yeah, some of the pages mentioned flash. But everything uses flash so that's kind of a non-starter. Broadest support community, maybe. Helpful? HA! It is to laugh. It's about the level of calling tech and having them say, "did you reboot?" Yes, you moron, I tried all of the 10 things you just asked me. If any of those had worked I wouldn't have called you at all. When can I talk to 2nd level? The desktop is awful. People say, "You just say that because it doesn't look like Windows." I say, "No, I just say that because it has 1/10th the functionality of Windows." Isn't the whole point of Linux that it's better than Windows? I ain't seen it yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:08 AM Try OpenSuse with the KDE desktop (as I said before, I think the KUbuntu implementation is lousy). It may (or may not) be more to your liking. I think Linux is far better than Windows but there is an element of each to their own. I find far more functionality in my distro than I do with Windows. But I think the biggest thing about Linux is that it is free and free in more than one way. You are free to choose your distro, you are free to choose your desktop, you are free to get the Linux you (I hope) like etc. Unfortunately with that freedom comes (IMO) the need to experiment a little... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM There's experiment, and then there's write the works of Shakespeare by throwing darts at the keyboard. There needs to be more to go on than what's available. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:39 AM The "top 10" distributions are listed here. Some of these, eg. CentOS, FreeBSD (which isn't really Linux) and Slackware, I suspect you could discount. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:25 AM From the looks of this, Mint and SuSE look the best. I can't believe they call Ubuntu "beginner friendly." Maybe if all the beginner wants to do is read email and play MP3's. Yeah everybody says how much more orgasmic Linux is than Windows. I will definitely try at least one other distro before canning the whole felching thing and going back to the Beast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:23 AM Applications that are poorly documented cannot be blamed on the OS. They may rely on features such as KDE. The main advantage of Linux is that any expert (not you and I) can see how it works. Therefore it should be safer in many respects. Safe orgasms are a matter of training. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:22 AM I spent a lot of time of Fedora before going to Ubuntu in frustration - bad bugs on install. It depends on which version of Ubuntu you use - the LST - Long Term Support version have 5 years of support - longer than any other distro. these usually have the .04 label - which means that they are released in April of each year. I don't know HOW you installed the OS. If you did not select 'optional install', you probably won't have installed any manuals, especially for non-core apps such as this. KDE is sometimes only desktop GUI that some apps are built for, but, funnily enough, you can run KDE apps on Gnome. I do it all the time. To install an app, it is best to do this thru the 'install-package-handler', which ever one you use - I have a couple on this box, as I used to have hassles with Fedora breaking one of the handlers, and so I found it useful to have options. :-) So (as the app install page says) http://www.simon-listens.org/wiki/index.php/Installation 1) For Ubuntu please use the provided ppa repository maintained by the simon listens team. To add the repository to your system execute the following commands in a command line: 1. sudo add-apt-repository ppa:grasch-simon-listens/simon 2. sudo apt-get update You can find more information about this process in the ubuntu documentation. You can then install simon with your package manager. simon will be updated automatically when new versions are released through the systems update process. 2) Manual * Download the current installation file from our Sourceforge page. Select the file matching your architecture (i386/amd64) and your system (.deb/.rpm/.sh). * Install simon using the just loaded installation file. If installation does not automatically start, you can use the following commands in a terminal: cd Debian based Systems: (min. Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex (8.10)) sudo dpkg -i simon- RPM based Systems: sudo rpm -i simon- Generic Systems: ./simon- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ok, so I've been playing with UNIX for a while and those instructions actually make sense... ask if you don't understand... so the next bit is even harder, you need to actually 'make' (compile and link) the source code... ~~~~~~~ 3) HTK installation If you want to train your acoustic model you also need the HTK. If you only want to use a static base model you can safely skip this step. simon uses a software called Hidden Markov Model Toolkit (HTK) to generate the speechmodel. This software is free of charge, but its licence prohibits its distribution with simon. For Linux users HTK is only shipped as source code which means that you will have to compile HTK for yourself. Fourtunately, this is quite easy. Before we can install HTK, we have to install its dependencies. Please install the following packages: * ALSA Development files * X11 Development files * Buildsystem with Compiler and Linker (mostly called "build-essential" or similar) Debian based Systems: sudo apt-get install build-essential libx11-dev libasound2-dev * Now please register at the HTK homepage (it's free). Shortly after you entered your account details you should receive an e-mail containing your personal HTK-password. * Download the most recent HTK sourcecode (HTK- * To extract, configure, build and install the downloaded Tarball, execute the following commands in a terminal: cd tar xvf HTK- cd htk/ 64bit-Systems only! Remove all appearances of -m32 in configure.ac and run autoconf! ./configure make sudo make install ~~~~~~~~ OK - clear as mud - but I understand... Also, in order to compile and 'make' packages, you need to the the 'compile package' installed (the 3rd step above), and that is not always installed by default. You haven't understood a word, have you guys... OK go back to Windows... :-) Ask away... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "two sources of sound at the same time" If you thought the previous one one complicated, you ain't seen nothing yet! I do not understand - in a way that I can explain in a non-hands on way in writing to someone who admits to knowing nothing about Linux the hang ups with Linux sound. But, there are many optional ways of doing things. Unfortunately Flash is a propriety mess (nothing to do with Linux, who have to back engineer the arcane workings of Flash in a way that does not breach copyright - unlike MS, who bought a multi-million dollar licence) and the inner secret workings can bring the whole Linux system down. "except for the ones which, when I try the solution, it doesn't work for me." If you read a 'solution' for a version of Ubuntu (or worse, another distro!) that is different from yours, it will not work! QUOTE once you install it, you have to go online to update all the drivers UNQUOTE Windows may kludge along without updates, but Linux cannot! It's a 'feature' not a bug ...... :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Google to the rescue!" No, no, no... Google will f*ck you up if you try to misuse it this way... it is not a 'knowledge base' but a blind search engine looking for terms (just words) without wisdom of the concepts involved. ~~~~~~ QUOTE You ask a question. Some bright and helpful person gives the only answer they have. You try it and it doesn't work. Some second person gives their sole answer. You try it and it doesn't work. The thread then goes silent for eternity. These communities are littered with threads whose last post is from 2006 and consists of some variation on, "That didn't work. Help?" UNQUOTE Answers from 2006 will NOT WORK in 2011 - they are for obsolete versions, which have those inherent bugs fixed, so the suggested workaround CAN NOT WORK. Don't waste your time. Google IS NOT YOUR FRIEND HERE, as you probably stumbled over these threads via Google. I repeat, diagnosing Linux sound hassles is beyond me, as they keep changing the game, and I am not up with it. I have my system working satisfactorily for what I use - even got 'mouse over midi' working... :-) but I don't know what is your bug/block. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:32 AM As I just noticed - 'Simon' is only version 0.3.0. Any SW with a version number lower than 1.0 is ' pre-release beta' or even 'Alpha' and it is expected that the user can cope with any inherent hassles. From your comments you clearly can not (no insult intended), thus you would be best advised to NOT try using this SW - IT WILL HAVE many HASSLES! You will be able to spend several thousand dollars to get a Windows compatible commercial version to do a similar task. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: terrier Date: 17 Jan 11 - 10:27 AM Well, I tried Ubuntu, then I tried Mint, then I gave up and went back to Windoze. Now Foolestroupe has just explained why I shouldn't have bothered in the first place. Mere mortals should not dabble in the black arts of computer OS's. There, now I feel much better ;p |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM terrier, note that we are mainly talking about problems of a particular application, available for Windows and Linux. Read Foolestroupe's post of 17 Jan 11 - 07:32 AM. More at http://www.simon-listens.org/. Now about OSs: Many Windows apps, free or expensive, cause considerable problems as well. Until recently, Windows and MacOS were ahead of Linux in terms of ease-of-use (OS and basic applications). Nowadays, opinions vary even among unbiased experts. Many free and commercial applications are available for each OS. If they are expensive, you can expect them to work easily and smoothly, though not all of them answer these expectations. Gift horses may be feeble, contain bugs or even Greek warriors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:49 AM Simon is just the current example. I could have made just as long a rant about OpenOffice. And the functionality of the GUI is a tithe that of Windows XP. You can't blame any particular application on the OS, but you can blame the lack of any decent applications at all (for the task you want) on the OS. I've used shareware and freeware for Windows for 20 years and never had as much trouble as I'm having with this Linux stuff in the last 4 months. Good point about Simon being an alpha -- I'll uninstall it and use something else. I'm used to websites having big flashing signs saying "THIS IS AN ALPHA PEOPLE!" but that's just laziness on my part. QUOTE Answers from 2006 will NOT WORK in 2011 - they are for obsolete versions, which have those inherent bugs fixed, so the suggested workaround CAN NOT WORK. Don't waste your time. Google IS NOT YOUR FRIEND HERE, as you probably stumbled over these threads via Google. UNQUOTE You misread me. I found these threads via the official channels (ubuntu.com, launchpad.net). And it's not that the solution is from 2006 so much as that the people stopped trying in 2006 to fix the problem. Nobody gives a damn for your problem if their pet solution doesn't work for you. This is why online, community-based support is totally inadequate. It's only helpful if (a) somebody has had the same problem as you with all the same parameters, and (b) they fixed it. The odds are great that for any problem that somebody with my level of computer skills can't fix, there's nobody on there who can either. Somebody either here or on another forum suggested I get a book from Amazon or Borders or something -- I think that might be the solution. Play with that for a while, not use any applications more complicated than a toothpick, and grit my teeth. At least what you're saying about sound systems in Linux is a point for my side. Linux has been around since 1992 and still hasn't figured this out? Not a strong argument in its favor. And nowadays people want sound from their computers. They play YouTube and stream video and any number of things. A computer without adequate sound is only half a computer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM I think the problem with Linux and sound is there are so many set ups possible and I can get very lost trying to understand it. That said, I'd imagine Jack which is commonly available on Linux is more advanced than anything you are likely to have used on Windows (although a free Win version is available)... As said above, I have no problem with Linux and sound on my current Linux setup which has the following sound devices: Built in soundcard on MB (HDA NVidia), Edirol UM2 midi interface and Yamaha MW10C USB mixer work well. What's more, unlike with Windows where I would have to find and install from driver disks (and doubtless reboot each time), it all works straight out of the box on OpenSuse 11.3. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:08 PM Zoom H4 field recorder also works well as a sound card on Linux. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM My God. I feel sort of relieved that I don't know enough about any of the above to even try to deal with it....I live in blissful ignorance. ;-D Still running on Windows XP here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Newport Boy Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM Yeah maybe i should switch to another distro. I think I should find a way to determine which has the best (most helpful) online community. I think I could get over the initial hump in the learning curve if I could just have somebody who is actually willing to help me with it, and doesn't give up when it gets hard. I switched from WinXP to Mepis linux about 2 years ago - I couldn't stand Vista (and I still can't, although I only see it when I sort friend's machines). Have a look at forum.mepiscommunity.org - I doubt you'll find a more helpful linux forum. Mepis is KDE-based, although I use a few Gnome apps. I've never needed to compile and make packages - the Mepis Community Package team do that on request. If you want to try Mepis, it runs well from a live CD or USB stick. Use version 8.5 - Mepis 11 will be out in a few months, but the current version is a beta with a couple of problems for the newcomer. Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 11 - 12:45 PM I have downloaded demo ISO disks of Knoppix and Mandriva.....just to see how Linux 'feels' and was able to boot from those disks and get running.....but then just finding my way thru the file system and knowing what to click on just to FIND my own files was tedious. The system of naming the parts with arcane abbreviations only makes sense after you KNOW it....and finding a simple guide? HA! As mousethief notes, they seem to think it beneath them to spell out the baby steps to get beginners started. I managed to clunk my way around a few times, but if I didn't do it regularly, I had to relearn it. I can't imagine trying to sort out the layered, ever-changing bits to do what mousethief is attempting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jjon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 01:16 PM Finding your own files should be easy. They will usually be in /home/username/. It can be even easier from the command line, eg. on my system, cd ~ will get to my home directory - far easier than Windows!. For GUI, dolphin (as well as other file managers) will take me straight there. I just have to click an Icon on the task bar at the bottom of the screen. I'm not sure that as a "normal user" you usually (ie' unless following a "how to") need to know about the rest of the root directory structure on a Desktop Linux although knowing most configuration files are in /etc and most log files are in /var/log may be useful to know... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:01 PM *grin*...I think you just proved my point, Jon. "They will **usually** be in /home/username/" My head does not cope with command line, as I almost never looked at a computer until Windows 3. And I found it hard to even recognize what WAS a file manager in Knoppix. (In Windows, I collect file managers... I have perhaps 35.) As I said, once you know the answers, you know the answers. My personal way of coping with complexity is to watch it being done, then extract by Inductive logic the steps and rules. I can usually then write a handbook for others, explaining the steps they should have outlined at the beginning. Another example is the encryption program TrueCrypt. It has a detailed 'guide' in which they proceed to 'explain' the concepts in language which only makes sense AFTER you are familiar with such language. They give no quick start "do this, then this...avoid this...now this..." I could work my way thru a Linux installation AFTER it is properly installed and operate within the system as well as anyone. But INSTALLING all those bits before you realize what routines are required is a matter for those whose heads LIKE playing with multiple alternatives. (I can drive almost any vehicle on the road, but I do not understand how a carburetor works...nor do I wish to be required to learn the physics of internal combustion in order to get to the store.) At my age, and with my headset, I'd better stick to rummaging around within Windows and explaining how to do odd things with multiple browsers and caches and fonts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: olddude Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:11 PM Works great for me , every version I used. Great operating system I think and many others also. However, like all versions of Linux , it requires some digging and most Linux applications since they are open source are not well documented ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Hog Wash Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM Try ISBN-10 0-598-51493-x. Consider Knoppix Hacks to be training wheels for Linux
This stuff is not intended for the "plug and play" crowd. If that is your desire buy a Mac.
Able to run from a bootable CD or flash drive - this is a screaming fast way to bypass MS Bloat...
Next to Gibson's this is a clean way to recover lost data.
I have a hunch - you will be unhappy - the 392 page book with CD retails for just under 22.00 USD.
(Hogwash = a packert scrubber that untomatically blocks packets that trip snort runles) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:33 PM And the instructions, oy, don't get me started on the instructions. They always go something like this: Open a Terminal. Type xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and press Enter This will bring up such-and-such click on the "do this thing" box. There is nothing at all that tells you, if you type xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and press Enter and it DOES NOT bring up such-and-such, what to do. Which is far more often the case than it actually working as it says on the tin. Maybe I'll reformat my HDD for XP, and then boot Linux from a bootable CD. Then if I ever need XP it will be there, and can run Linux most of the time simply by not removing the CD. Or maybe I'll just give the whole thing the heave-ho because I don't have the kind of time it clearly takes to climb the learning cliff. Linux: the operating system for people who want the operating system to take the place of a dessicated social life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM "(Hogwash = a packert scrubber that untomatically blocks packets that trip snort runles)" Oh...sure now it is perfectly clear! Like having "Ulysses" translated into Sanskrit by Gertrude Stein and read to me by a lisping tobacco auctioneer... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM Bill, I said usually to cover myself... I am typing this using IceWeasel in a fairly recent (6.2) version of Knoppix. The "your" files are accessible from the desktop. It's as simple as clicking the "My Documents" Icon at the top left of the screen. This opens PC Man file manager at the right folder. One thing with Linux is the (default) GUI file manager is not part of Linux in the way Windows Explorer is bound to Windows but part of the Desktop. It is the Desktop (eg. KDE, Gnome, LXDE in the case of Knoppix, etc.) that gives the GUI look and feel. Someone who might not feel at home with Gnome might with KDE or visa versa... I suppose it can be a level of confusion for someone new but I much prefer the freedom of choice with this to the MS Windows - "Take it, it's good for you" approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM Hey, If you're still having problems, find a tech that specializes in Mac and Linux. They are very similar, and several techs have told me that Linux is vastly superior to MS. The one tech I talked to,(just for you), said that unless you know the little ins and outs, about Linux, you shouldn't mess with installing it yourself, and to get someone who does..BUT, regardless, you(or your Tekky) HAVE to go online, once you load the initial disc, to open the different programs! Hey, Best of luck, you rodent burglar! Gf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:23 PM Jon. I will guarantee you that there was no 'my documents' icon on the desktop of the bootable CD (or the bootable DVD) I burned of Knoppix about 2 years ago. That is what I would have looked for. Remember, this was not 'installed', and it was going to look for files on a Windows PC using Linux protocols. Maybe 'recent ones' are better. (what clickable items I vaguely remember were not even at the top) I will dig it out and look again next few days...just to cover MYself...*grin* I found the list of root directories with all the backslashes and just 'rooted' thru them until I stumbled on a list of files...about 3 levels deeper than I would have expected. (gee... you wanta drop by and give me hands on guidance for a few days? Plane tickets would be only 5-6 times that of buying a computer with everything already set up!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM I'm pretty sure your version and mine would look different, Bill. I suspect your version of Knoppix would have had a KDE3 desktop... I think they changed over to the lighter LXDE as the default with version. KDE has changed too btw - current is the KDE4.X series (of which the first were lousy. 4.4 is reliable here but when they released 4.0, I'd suggest it still was an alpha rather than a release version, maybe 4.2 reached beta stage...) ---- You'd only pay my plane tickets? I'd at least want food and accommodation. I'd would do an exchange with the Linux. I'll sort that out in exchange for you teaching me (not that I believe for a minute I could be taught) how to turn wood. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Old Vermin Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:01 PM After a Windows XP malware [1] minor disaster I had XP cleaned up and Ubuntu installed as a dual-boot. Ubuntu gets going faster and doesn't so far scare the hell out of me by running incredibly slowly doing this and that or indeed blue-screening which XP still does. Just a question of getting round to making the sound-card work with Ubuntu and finding an emulator to run Turnpike. And digging out an ABC notation program or two for Linux. [1] I'm not calling Windows itself malware, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM Question for the technogeeks: Let's say I want to set up a dual-boot. How do I do that? Do I have to fdisk and set up two partitions? If I do, how large should I make each one, if I intend to do most of my work on the Linux side and use the MS side for a few choice operations (mostly having to do with MS-SQL lessons)? Is there a Linux equivalent of f-disk? Size seems to be 400G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: olddude Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:18 PM Linux is a scientific operating system, it really was designed for the universities and government. There are endless free applications for all flavors and most all versions run incredibly well. However, the downside is it requires a heck of a lot of digging and tech skill. Documentation is poor at best for add on apps. I put it on many of my families computers who only do email, word processing and web searches and stuff like that. Perfect for them as it is much more secure and no anti virus to keep buying. However, many people just starting out with it find it very difficult for other apps they want to use. I don't but that is because I have used it many years and my degrees are all in Computer Science. In short most people are more comfortable with Windows and put up with having to purchase the software and anti virus stuff and that is a good approach also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM "it's not that the solution is from 2006 so much as that the people stopped trying in 2006 to fix the problem" Ah - but Ubuntu alone has had 10 or so totally new version (production release) releases since then... and then all the other distros - which are of a couple of distinct and largely incompatible implementations - which you CAN use SW built of one on others, you REALLY need to know 'how to repair carburettors' ... You can search Yahoo Answers - sometimes you can find the right answer there, only sometimes.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "what you're saying about sound systems in Linux is a point for my side. Linux has been around since 1992 and still hasn't figured this out? Not a strong argument in its favor." The problem is that there is a mass of overlapping changes in the way sound is implemented (each one being a massive improvement in efficiency and uptime performance!), as well as a fundamental change to something called HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) and now things that run in 'userspace' rather than in 'systemspace' it seems that ALSA (which simon will not work without and tells you to install) is needed - there are WAYS to make many different sound system link together ... "Not a strong argument in its favor" - well rather than 'fixing' Win9x to work with USB, they trashed it and made you buy a largely incompatible expensive NEW system.... that needed a massive quantum leap in computing power (and other incompatible hardware) to work ... You can still make a 'stripped down' Linux run on machines so old that the hardware is dying anyway ... Puppy, DSL (you can build your own router/firewall on an old Pentium) ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Somebody either here or on another forum suggested I get a book" Well these books are often more about how to 'design and build carburettors' (as per Bill D) - the 'simple' 'pretend it is windows' books will show you how to use the browser and edit a file, but will not help you to fix a sound problem, for instance, sadly... but once you understand pipes and redirections, you can build your own spelling checker using the inbuilt commands.... (grep, sort, uniq, etc) ... UNIX/Linux is (atm) more of a Formula One or Dragster than a motorized shopping trolley... and works exceptionally well - much better the Windoze - for big production systems - it almost NEVER crashes for those Big Iron Servers, etc... but it is clearly not for everybody... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:30 PM Mosuethief. Linux is pretty good at installing with Windows already installed (the reverse is not true). You should be able to Install XP first on a disk just containing a single Windows/partition. Your Linux installation (at least with the popular desktop ones we've talked about here) should provide an easy way to do the partitioning, boot menu etc. as part of its process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:43 PM Like OldDude, I also put Linux on relations' computer, in my case, my parents. As users, they much prefer it to the Windows (it was Win2K which had gone out of service life when I changed them over) they had previously. I think the best part of it all round was pretty much an end to "Jon, why has this happened, what did I do wrong?" episodes, etc. While still pretty basic users, they became far more confident through the stability of Linux. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:52 PM "find a tech that specializes in Mac and Linux. They are very similar" OS9 and later are largely UNIX based. "Is there a Linux equivalent of f-disk?" There are several, especially if you have a working system and have loaded several :) ... parted is often found on those free 'linux rescue disks' - a basic Linux boot and LOTS of 'repair utilities, far superior to Windows. You can have hassles as windows does not like Linux and will fight you trying to do a dual install - I don't have time to give help on this atm - you have to do it in the right order and make sure you have passwords, and preferably a backup of your system before you go play... Linux will usually install 'over' Win with far less hassle than trying it the other way round. I had days of frustration of trying to compress the unused Win space to allow a dual boot on the laptop - it had spattered unmovable hidden shit all over the disk, and only when I found a trial version of something very expensive for windows, would it unclench it's claws and let me shrink the partition... Windows/Linux debate are largely Political/Religious - they are 'belief based'... there is something Byte magazine called 'the little yellow baby duck syndrome' (referring to text editors) - you imprint on the first thing you see and judge everything else you later see by that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 06:54 PM "You should be able to Install XP first on a disk just containing a single Windows/partition." But if you do get the chance to partition first, it just makes life easier... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:08 PM "Linux will usually install 'over' Win with far less hassle than trying it the other way round" Of course, when trying to install Ubunto 10.04 on my new AMD V20 Toshiba, it fell over - that's because Toshiba had 'done secret V20 things' and the Linux guys had to reverse engineer things around the undocumented proprietary changes Toshiba had made - I still haven't had the opportunity to try again yet. I thought about 11.11, but it is not a LTS release, so I will have to upgrade to a later version anyway, so looking at waiting for 11.04 as Win 7 is klunking along sufficiently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:09 PM That should have been 10.10 - not 11.11 ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM Listening to you guys who ...ahem... understand this stuff, I see more than ever why we mere mortals should either HAVE it installed, or not bother. (Jon, I'd be glad to at least show you woodturning, and I guarantee it's more obvious than computers! When I win the lottery, I'll be glad to supply tickets, food, lodging...and a beverage......hmmm.... Oh, they say I have to actually buy a ticket to win!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:40 PM Look guys, I 'understood UNIX' when at Uni in the late 70s.early 80s .... I don't understand ALL of where Linux has gone, especially with HW implementations ... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:41 PM HW? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jan 11 - 11:27 PM Hardware, Mousethief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:06 AM HW: Hardware - the bits of the machine that you can kick. SW: Software - the bits of the machine you can only swear at ... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:12 AM Oh. I thought it was some secret arcane Linux acro. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:27 AM Even predates UNIX, which predates Linux.... :-P |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Slag Date: 18 Jan 11 - 02:59 AM I looked at this thread and thought things must really be getting bad in Africa. Safely ignorant thus far! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,hogwash Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM Boot from a flash drive or CD until you become comfortatable with it. The zone of anxiety you are in will not help your creative flow. You need to partition the drive to make room for the program (there is a chance of data loss) and you need to configure your boot loader. It is easiest to do this with a clean system or just add another drive. 13 GB is recommended for Knoppix. It will attempt to find windows extentions |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: mousethief Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM What's a boot loader? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: GUEST,Jon Date: 18 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM A program that loads the operating system(s). With Linux these days, it is usually grub |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:49 PM Grub is now starting to be obsolete - some distros are apparently moving to a default other more advanced (and incompatible) bootloader. Things keep getting changed for upgraded performance all the time - I said I have difficulty keeping up. However if you are starting out as a totally NEW user and not upgrading, you won't have to fight the transitions to new systems all the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:43 AM Here is a C&P from the freeware group I frequent, mentioning other possibilities: > http://www.andlinux.org/index.php > > "andLinux is a complete Ubuntu Linux system running seamlessly in > Windows 2000 based systems (2000, XP, 2003, Vista, 7; 32-bit versions > only). This project was started for Dynamism for the GP2X community, but > its userbase far exceeds its original design. andLinux is free and will > remain so, but donations are greatly needed." > > "andLinux is not just for development and runs almost all Linux > applications without modification." > > Requirements > OS: Windows 2000 / XP / 2003 / Vista / 7 (currently only the 32-bit > versions are supported) > Memory: at least 128 MB (192 MB or more is recommended) Note that you > should have enough memory left for Windows (at least 128 MB for Windows > 2000 / XP / 2003; at least 512 MB for Windows Vista / 7)! Hard disk > space: 2.5 GB (XFCE version) / 4.5 GB (KDE version) Note that you need > an NTFS file system (which is default since Windows 2000) because you > can't create files larger than 2 GB on FAT(32) file systems! > A good internet connection (to be able to install further applications > via apt-get / Synaptic) > Some basic Linux skills to proceed once andLinux is installed > > Downloads > http://www.andlinux.org/downloads.php >
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:46 AM there was this additional: Others worth looking at/playing with Cygwin/X http://x.cygwin.com/ Minimalist GNU for Windows http://mingw.org/ Basic Cygwin http://www.cygwin.com/ Topologilinux http://www.topologilinux.com/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ubuntu Hell From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM and one more post from one of the most dependable folks in that group, answering a question: > As far as I am not familiar with AndLinux/coLinux ( even if aware about > the former ), > how would you compare performance, stability, usability and security of > Linux-In-Windows solutions > compared to Linux Guest on Windows host ( e.g. VirtualBox ) ? Depends on what you want. I use VirtualBox as it give me the situation of running a guest operating system integrated seamlessly into the host operating system. For example Mandriva Linux as the host and XP totally integrated into the Linux desktop (Gnome, KDE, Xfce, whichever). If you're only looking to run a few Linux programs then one of the solutions in this thread may be better. VirtualBox is more resource intensive but gives you a mass of virtualisation options. I've never had stability problems with VirtualBox and as far as security concerns go I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about Windows security! |
