BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:03 AM

So you think it is all made up Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:34 AM

Links to The Daily Torygraph don't tend to be much good either. ...

Something about Church of England being the Tory party at prayer?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:10 AM

Sorry, Washington Times link no good.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:07 AM

These links indicate that there is an issue.
I also do not think such claims would be dismissed by contributors were it about any other ethnic/cultural group.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-inc

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:18 AM

Well. If we include all forms of superstition and clubs affiliated to the cause. ...

Those persecuted include;

Women
Gays
Anybody not part of their particular cult

Look at it that way and you don't have to differentiate between different cults.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:14 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:08 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

"String, the Pope is no fundamentalist."

So far, it seems as though he is more liberal than the past Popes. We'll see how he handles church doctrine in the future. He is trying to bring ex-Catholics back into the church.

"I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?"

Not all of it. Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt and other Muslim countries.

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Christians often bring persecution on by insisting that their religion is the right one, though I don't support persecution of any religion or non-religion. The same biases might be said for any fundamentalist religion; when it becomes evangelical, it sets itself up
for push back. Unfortunately religion in general often turns violent because of its tendency toward tribalism; it becomes the persecuted and the persecutor.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution,

Well, Kevin, try telling that to the person that started this thread, OK?

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM

And of course you'd be happy to replace "Christian" by "Jew" or Muslim"in that post. Or "gay" "black"...

Fortunately "what everyone else has to suffer' overstates the situation. Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution, though we certainly could in some places. But the people who do get persecuted, whatever minority they belong to in whatever part of the world, certainly don't "deserve whatever persecution they may get".

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "the truth"

Or what you mean by persecution.

Now, just for clarity, lets try the whole posting, shall we Kevin?:

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get. Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:33 PM

String, the Pope is no fundamentalist.

I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?

Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:14 PM

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Jews"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Muslims"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

I suppose it depends on what you mean by"the truth"...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:11 PM

It's a fairly well established fact that any church with a modicum of power and influence will persecute and dominate to protect what it has - hence their tendency to invariably support whoever is in charge no matter what their particular philosophy and attitude to human rights.
Politics and religion has always been a toxic mix and so it shall remain, forever and ever, amen!
This doesn't mean that there aren't clergymen and women who buck the system, but these usually come to a bad end, and no doubt, go to hell!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:00 PM

"No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate."

It's difficult to have sympathy when in the US there are fundamentalist Christian religious figures and organizations that are inflicting their evangelistic beliefs on others claiming some kind of godly authority, often with violence.

I suspect an agenda here. We know that there are Jews for Jesus, and the fundamentalist prophecy of "end times" involves the domination of Israel over
its "enemies". We know that there are active fundamentalist groups who are
defending Israel's right to subjugate Palestinians because they are "heathens".
In fact, if you explore the bible, you'll find that the Palestinian people were referred
to in the Old Testament as "Philistines".

It's remarkable that the government of Israel encourages such an agenda on the part of fundamentalist Christians.

Christian "victimhood" is being used as a political ploy by these Fundamentalist
Christians to vindicate their employment of coercion and evangelism. They feel
that somehow they are closer to Jesus through persecution when in fact, the majority of US citizens are Christian and many exploit those citizens who are not.
These exploitive people do not deserve sympathy but a sad rebuke instead.

If Jesus existed, what we he say about his exploitive followers? What would
he say about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza today?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 11:43 AM

'According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!'

I don't believe in original sin. All mine have been done before.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM

I know a lot of people who have been, or have relatives who have been sexually persecuted by Christian clergymen if that's any help?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:53 AM

Disgusting, Kevin? You find the truth disgusting?

What's really disgusting is perpetuating the myth that " persecution or the imprisonment of Christians [ is ] greater than [ that ]of other faiths or orientations"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:15 PM

The assumption that Christian communities in third world countries are relics of colonialism is not one that should automatically be accepted. In Middle Eastern countries such as Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Turkey, Christianity was the predominant religion long before the arrival of Islam.

Particularly in the light of the horrifying massacre in Peshawar, Greg's comment that such things serve Christians right is pretty disgusting. I am suppose there are people who would say precisely the same thing if an equivalent atrocity were to take place in a mosque, or a synagogue. I wonder if he would be one of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

it ought to go without saying, that in highlighting violence and murder ,or the imprisonment of Christians as being greater than of other faiths or orientations, that any such persecution is unacceptable.
but specifics may be more useful in campaigning than generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:48 PM

On a pedestal?
Being the most persecuted is like being on a pedestal.
None should be on a pedestal.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:45 PM

I think it is Keith. However the danger in the real world is international political and media attention can wittingly or unwittingly put Christianity on a pedestal which, as history shows, started many of the problems in the first place.

I was always taken by something Archbishop Desmond Tutu said. He said that when white settlers came to southern Africa, they had the Bible and the blacks had the land. They invited the blacks to close their eyes and pray. When they opened them again, the blacks had the Bible and the settlers had the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM

I agree with all that Musket, but if it is true that one "cult" is suffering significantly more than the others, is it not OK to draw attention to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket bemused
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM

Ok.

1. People from many religions are persecuted, mainly by people claiming to be religious.

2. Keith started this thread a long time ago with statistics provided by the Scottish head Catholic bloke who is now in disgrace, hidden away by the church to prevent the police from investigating him.

3. Awful and wrong, that's how I describe any persecution, whether it be religious, colour, sexual orientation or gender. From plotting inequality to murder, it's degrees of persecution.

But singling out one particular type, creed, and then one particular cult of creed, Christianity, ain't going to solve anything. Tackling intolerance for what it is, that's where you start. Protecting one cult and ignoring those who murder in it's name ain't going to cut much with those on their receiving end. That they are receiving more than others at the moment is a combination of awful circumstance and media interest, so we tend to know more. Ask a Sunni Muslim in Iran or a Shia Muslim in Iraq where persecution comes from in a the main, and it is each other.

One of the worst things that can happen is for William Hague to admonish China for persecution of Christians without equal emphasis on their persecution of Hindu, Muslim and Jews. After all, British citizens are British citizens and equal...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get.

Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 08:16 AM

"Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity in the United States estimates that over the last decade, an average of 100,000 Christians have died each year in what the center calls a "situation of witness," meaning for motives related to their faith.

Though some experts regard that estimate as inflated, it works out to an average of 11 Christians killed each hour throughout the past decade.

Parts of the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and regions of sub-Saharan Africa tend to be the greatest danger zones, though there are recent examples of Christians experiencing violent persecution in many other parts of the world as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

we can only hope that the new demigod of N Korea will be less vicious to faith groups.at present i understand it is the worst state for persecution of believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 12:16 PM

A bemused thought here: If this thread were of 80 years ago, would the subject be the persecution of Jews?

There would have been even more reason to bewail the persecution of Jews then than of Christians today.

After all, Jews were persecuted- not because of their beliefs but because of things beyond their control: their birth.

Seriously, were there writers who took up the cudgel against the violence against Jews?

(I fully recognize that the 30s-40s in Germany were not the first, only or last offenses against Jews.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:54 AM

"They hung me up across an iron gate, then they yanked open the gate and my whole body lifted until my chest nearly split in two. I hung like that for four hours."
That is how Peter Xu Yongze, the founder of one of the largest religious movements in China, described his treatment during one of five jail sentences on account of his belief in Christianity.



Peter Xu Yongze was in jail for a total of eight years
Mr Xu, 61, is not the only Chinese Christian to suffer for his faith. Both Catholics and Protestants have long complained of persecution by the Communist authorities, and human rights groups claim the problem is getting worse.
According to the Jubilee Campaign, an interdenominational lobby group, about 300 Christians are in detention in China at any one time, and that number is set to rise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3993857.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:39 PM

"...decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian." Donuel

" my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices)"?

Highly unlikely. Doing without electricity or other devices in no way makes one Amish, Don.

That misstatement makes your whole contention suspect. I fail to see why you found it necessary to write such a ludicrous paragraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

Excellent Keith, factual and concise.

The Arab spring? more like a dangerous swamp.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM

Just from the rapidly declining numbers of Christians in Muslim majority states it should be obvious that something is very wrong. According to a US Department of State report on religious freedom, there are now just 85 000 Christians in Turkey, down from 2 million. In Lebanon, where they once constituted a majority, they now make up no more than one-third of the population. Once as much as half the population in Syria, they now constitute perhaps 4%. In Jordan, they make up 2%, when they were once close to one in five.

Especially ironical is how the US-led invasion of Iraq, rather than benefiting the Christian population, has had exactly the opposite effect. Once kept in check by the Saddam regime, hard-core Islamists have now been left free to persecute their Christian neighbours and have done so relentlessly. The massacre of 37 worshipers at Baghdad's Sayyidat al-Najat Syrian Catholic Christian Church in October last year was just one of multiple incidents of anti-Christian violence in Iraq. That the law officially strongly opposes such acts makes little difference. In practice few are arrested, let alone punished, for attacks on religious minorities, even those involving murder. The impact of this undeclared reign of terror has been dramatic, with the Christian population — 1.4 million strong at the time of the 2003 Coalition invasion — dropping 50% in less than a decade.

For Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian minority, the Arab Spring in their country has been a disaster. One of the worst cases of violence against them took place only last month, where the military killed dozens of Christians (inter alia, video evidence shows armoured-vehicles running over civilians) protesting the destruction of their churches. The response of Western governments has been one of studied apathy. Indeed, it has been alleged that US President Barack Obama's top Muslim adviser blocks Middle Eastern Christians' access to the White House.

Earlier this year, the mainly Christian Southern Sudan was allowed to break away to form its own independent state. Prior to this, however, and for many years, hundreds of thousands of Sudanese Christians had been massacred, ethnically cleansed in massive numbers or (literally) enslaved.

Anti-Christian persecution is happening in the Palestinian territories as well. In Gaza, assaults, firebombings, seizures of homes and businesses and death threats against Christians happen continually and usually with impunity. Today, barely 3 000 Christians remain there. The West Bank's Christian population likewise has dropped sharply, even in Bethlehem, Christianity's birthplace.

What is now happening to Arab Christians has already happened to Jews in those countries. In the 20 years following the establishment of Israel, the North African and Middle Eastern Jewish communities left en masse after being subjected to systematic, usually state-orchestrated persecution. Well over 95% of those communities and their descendants now live elsewhere. It was one of the 20th century's forgotten enforced exoduses, and now it is happening all the time to Christians, likewise without eliciting much comment from the world at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians

Documentation, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing unreasonable in addressing the evident fact that currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians. This probably hasn't been the case in other times - the world changes, and so do the religions.

I would imagine that one factor is that in some countries Christian are liable to be identified with former colonial regimes, very unfairly most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM

"Stance! Stance! wherever you may be!"

Sorry:0(......I'll get me crucifix.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

Still, I dont understand how you can see the religious stance stance on "Gay marriage", as "bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Agreed Ian, I dont hate the buggers either, regardless of what Jim thinks.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:27 AM

Anything that I agree with comes under better, anything I disagree with comes under worse.

I suspect that applies to us all......

Of course, like Jim, we could always damn them all. That way, we all get our turn in the barrel.

Gawb Bless us, one and aarrlll...

I preferred this thread when it was about being outraged by bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views. I enjoy pointing and laughing at God botherers, but that is far cry from hating the buggers....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:04 AM

"Would that be "damned to hell" then? "
Oh - that reminds me - damn all homophobes as well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 07:16 AM

To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better"

Why state that Jim, when no-one has ever, even suggested such a ludicrous thing?

More widespread only.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:13 AM

Would that be "damned to hell" then?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:47 AM

My opinion is as stated - religious persecution in any shape or form is evil, it is forcibly imposing religions on people who have no wish to be part of them.
To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better" or to suggest any form of persecution is acceptable because 'others do it' is to excuse it and allow it to flourish.
To demand that we should single out and deplore any one persecuted group and ignore others it to show bias - it is asking that we remove it from its context in order to score political/religious points - , thanks but no thanks - damn them/you all,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:18 PM

Distortion and misrepresentation is evident on the part of rather a wide spectrum of people posting here. That's what tends to happen when we are too confident that we are in the right in a discussion which has flowered into a quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM

Apart from all that Jim, what is your opinion on the subject of this thread?
i.e. in the world today, while persecution is all too prevalent, the persecution of Christian minorities is under recognised and under reported, and possibly more prevalent than other religious persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Sorry again Mike - between your last post and here is McGrath's (who I usually more or less agree with), and Keith's who... well.... even his best friends couldn't accuse him of honesty and even-handed - open-mindedness.
Inter - Christian disagreements have led to 90 years of unrest within these Islands - at least 20 of those culminationg in extremely bloody warfare. Persecution of one group of Christians by another is now pretty well accepted as the main reason for the unrest and bloodshed, and to set it apart from Muslims persecuting Christinas, or Jews perscuting Muslims is, I feel, missing the point.
It is not a case of 'which religion' - but religion itself overstepping its role which is the root of all religious persecution.
If it was merely a a case of the church having clergymen who were abusing children, perhaps you might have a point (though the fact that these individuals used the religious authority that their position brought them expands it far beyond that).
The fact that the Church as an organisation actively protected the abusers, enabled the abuse to continue, silenced those who threatened to expose the criminals with both spiritual and social consequences and continues to attempt to hide the facts surrounding the abuses - all this makes it a classic case of wholesale religious persecution by a Christian church.
The Dutch example shows that we still have no idea of the extent of these abuses - within these islands we have yet to learn how far they occured in the UK (including Northern Ireland - not to mention The Magdaline Laundries in the South).
The fact that all these are cases of a religious body (as a whole) using its position in society to carry out wholesale abuses on the weakest and most vunerable among us, makes it a classic case of religious persecution by by an extremely powerful Christian church, plain and simple.
It might be convenient for some to claim 'thread drift' - but my point remains unchallenged (or even acknowledged) - virtually all religious bodies have used (and will again - given the opportunity) use their position to persecute - whether it's their own followers or other those of other beliefs.
McGrath - I have made an effort to cool it as far as Keith is concerned - difficult when my arguments continue to be distorted and mis-represented.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

--"That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter."--

.,,.

Sorry, Jim, but I think you are semantically confused, & playing the HumptyDumpty definitions game. The posters between your response to my last and this one of mine appear to agree that you are confusingly conflating two different categories, for the purpose, mainly, of working off scores & resentments against a particular branch of Xtianity, rather than addressing the topic of this thread, which is persecution of or by Christians of or by members of other faiths.

None of us is disagreeing with you about the iniquity of the abuses [in more than one sense] which you relate. But it is not mere semantic juggling to point out that you are making a category error in conflating this with the actual topic which this thread sets out to discuss. We have had numerous threads on the other matter also, where you have cogently made the points which you are endeavouring, erroneously, to interpolate here.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM

I suppose there might be something to be said for havin all purpose argy-bargy threads in which we bash around bringing in different issues about which we have had disagreements with other people on other threads.

Rather more to be said, I feel, though for keeping our different quarrels, or preferably disagreements, in separate threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM

The clerical abuse of children is a most serious and damning issue.
In consequence it has been extensively debated here, with threads dedicated to it.
But, it has no bearing on this totally unrelated issue.
It is irrelevant, unless you are claiming that their lust for children was impregnated by their Christian culture.
Are you claiming that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:12 AM

"That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread! "
You are not noted for your breadth of imagination Keith - it ususlly doesn't extend beyond cut-'n-pastes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:10 AM

That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter. The Catholic heirarchy are still using their "superior - (though now waning) power base" - in an attempt to hamper enquiries into the abuse.
If I had children starting school here I would have almost no alternative but to have them educated as Catholics unless I was lucky enough to enrol them in one of the tiny handful of 'Educate Together' schools, in which case they would have to travel 20 odd miles to the nearest - a small pre-fabricated building on the outskirts of our market town.
Not sure of the present situation but up to comparatively recently, if a Catholic wished to marry a non Catholic and retain his/her religion they would have to give an undertaking to have any children educated as Catholics (a wonderful film 'A Love divided' showing the effects this had on a family bassed on an actual event in the 1950s) - a form of brainwashing as far as I'm concerned - as the Jesuits said "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".
Religious persecution has been a fact of life here in Ireland for centuries - (look up the 'soup schools' as far back as The Famine)
All of this, as far as I can see, fits comfortably within your definition of persecution - not killing, rape or imprisonment, but every bit as devatating to those affected.
It also illustrates the point I have been making throughout this thread (and which none of the critics of 'Christian Persecution' have even acknowledged, let alone answered) that most religions will persecute and abuse in the furtherence of their religion if they are in the position to do so
With equal respect - and I also sincerely mean that.
Jim Carroll