BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 09:05 AM

"No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution"
Yess you did - it's one of yor stock defences when you run out of excuses
"I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before"
Lip-service and evasion - you have refused to acknowledge even one and have said on numerous occasions that yo have never found evidence of one, even when you have #been given it.
That remains your position
Try again for a straight answer - are not what happened in Northern Ireland examples of major atrocites and persecution carried out by Christians in the name of their religion - a simple yes or no will suffice at this stage?
"but are there any happening now for us to condemn?"
You've been given the case of Nigeria - you first questioned that it was happening, then you trivaialised it because there were not enough dead (being driven from their homes doesn't count apparently!!) and now you've moved on.
"here are all too many examples of Christians"
There are too many examples of Palestinians being massacred and forced out -not Christians so unworthy of comment (other than to support and defend what is happening)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Apr 15 - 04:50 AM

Jim,
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted

No. I just did not think clerical abuse was relevant to a discussion on persecution.

Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.

I absolutely accept that, and I have said so before.

Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder

I do and have condemn them, but are there any happening now for us to condemn?
There are all too many examples of Christians being massacred and forced out.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:30 PM

You've had your chance to prove you are not a hypocrite Keith - you blew it.
Christians are capable of committing atrocities in the name of their religion as any other religious group - they certainly have done so in the recent past.
The problem under discussion here is oe of religious extremism - no religion is exempt from blame
Game, set and match - to adopt your own objectives in taking part in these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:19 PM

An interesting perspective on the persecution of women by many world religions:

""The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.""



Jimmy Carter from 2009 

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:13 PM

...who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

"Actually Christians?"

"Christians"[sic] Goin' to church on a regular basis don't make 'em Christians.

Church-going "Christians"[sic] historically made and currently make up the membership of the Ku Klux Klan.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:08 PM

"Which Christian church is guilty Jim?"
Does it matter
The Catholic Church has overseen the persistent rape of children by clergymen for decades - they continue to to hide the evidence so the victims cag get some sort of closure - you are fully aware of this.
Protestant Churchmen in Ireland were active in ascertaining that Catholics did not achieve full civil rights there - preachers such as Ian Paisley were renowned as rabble-rousers urging violence against the "Papist Antichrists" The actual denominations of those involved in the Bosnian massacres is immaterial - they were fighting for Christianity and they said so.
"I have not."
What???
You demandede on numerous occasions when I brought up the fact that Christians were equally capable of persecution, that this thread was about Christians being persecuted
"Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here."
Want more?
You really shoudn't tell lies on the same thread as the incriminating statements
Still no coonxwmnation of Christian acts of persecution and mass-murder
The Muslims must have the monopoly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

What's an atheist?

How do you know how many people activity reject theism?

Mind you. Thank-you for accepting you have been talking bollocks. Less serious threads certainly are the best place for your nonsense and fairy tales.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:35 PM

Is there a difference between people who say they are Christians, a large number, and people who are actually Christians in as much as they attend a Christian service on a regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Michael, I meant the discussion about how many atheists, which is on the Jeremy Clarkson thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:46 PM

Which thread is that, Keith? I seem to have missed it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:35 PM

Musket,
Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated,

It has no relevance to this thread, but the National Census and independent surveys and polls prove that atheists are a minority here, as in every other country.

This is being discussed on a less serious thread than this one, and I will reply to any more stuff there.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 12:30 PM

That will teach me to read posts more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

Brendon. . Read what I put. "The mind control and belonging" was a reaction to competition in southern Europe, according to a relative who studied theology to D Phil (Oxon) and is now a common or garden vicar. (We do have the occasional chewing of fat over a bottle and I quite enjoy it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 10:30 AM

Jim, of course I recognise that Christians massacred Muslims in Bosnia.
Deplorable.
Britain sent a major force to support the UN defend them.
Small cheer?

You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification
Which Christian church is guilty Jim?

you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
I have not.

Britain's contribution to protecting Muslim people in Bosnia.

Peacekeeping efforts in Bosnia, between 1992 and 1995. In 1994, there were 2,450 British soldiers serving with the UN Protection Force, a contribution second only to that of the French.

Stabilisation in Bosnia, between the end of the war in 1995 and 2002. Britain had several hundred troops deployed in Bosnia to ensure there was no return to the conflict which had raged for three years.

Kosovo 1999. The RAF deployed Tornados as part of a 78-day bombing campaign to halt the ethnic cleansing of Albanian Muslims. By April 26, they had carried out around 350 attack sorties, about 10 per cent of the overall attack effort by that stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 09:42 AM

"Has anything new been said this year?"

Little new has been said in the past four years.

SSDD

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 08:05 AM

Musket, just for information - Islam began in the middle of the 7th century, Christianity began round about 30 AD. So probably not at the same time then. (Unless of course you think that Elizabeth II was queen round about the time of the Peasants' Revolt. Joke, joke! Please don't climb out of your pram!)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

By the way Keith
Youve at no time raised the question of Bosbia in terms of it being an atrocity carried out against Muslims by Christians.
On the contrary, you brought it up as a humane act on te part of us Brits to save the Bosnian people - religion wa nemev mentioned nd your point was a dishonest one anyway
The Brits involved themselves in the U.N. peacekeeping force at the behest of the U.N. - no altruism or humanity intended "we acted to stop it by putting our own people in harms way" my arseum!!
Jim Carrtoll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 06:03 AM

Nothing new since christianity as we know it was invented, about the same time as Islam... The mind control and belonging was a reaction to the first rise of Islam if most honest theologian historians are to be believed. Even the eminent ones writing recently 😎

Jim has it on the button here. If you post on a thread, you are inviting debate. Asserting gets assertive challenge. Reasoned debate for a reason doesn't.

This thread was started to perpetuate Islamophobia, and in the name of a co superstition, which makes it all the more galling. Most people I know who belong to faiths of one sort or another do not assert it as some ultimate truth, even though privately they may feel that way. Most people get on with their comfort blanket, it is the insecure ones who reach out to ridicule rational people, as they want to feel safe in numbers. As I said, on a positive note, it could be that his position shames him on the intellectual level, whilst most boutique christians are far more well balanced and see their faith in a similar way to my faith in Sheffield Wednesday.

Whatever, the idea that a majority of people in The UK still believe in a God, when we are all decently educated, even allowing for the varied competence level of teachers, is an absurdity that doesn't need challenge, it just needs you to walk round with your eyes open.

This thread and others started by The Rt Rev Acheson to push his hobby and provoke reaction are sadly at the "point and laugh" level.

Always happy to oblige. Although I accept both sides of this thread must dismay genuine christians who don't get much choice in who they find themselves associated with. (Far too many MPs are fellow Sheffield Wednesday fans but woe betide the idea I share their take on life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 05:40 AM

" started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised."
The persecution certainly is not under=reported or unrecognised, what is is the persecution by the Christian church, and you have persistently tried to get this removed from this discussion.
If you believe the two are unrelated, please show us why.
"I am trying in a small way to break that silence"
No silence - people have said all religious persecution is wrong - you have defended religious persecution by denying its existence and by attempting to remove it from this and other discussions as "thread drift"
You have yet to condemn persecution by the Christian Church without qualification - last chance saloon - do so now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:16 AM

Me too Joe, but boys will be boys.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:14 AM

Point taken Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM

Jim,
To have never recognised the 100,000 Muslims slaughtered by Christins in Bosnia (not to mention the torture, mass rapes and concentration camps) as Christian atrocities - instead, you continue to claim there have been no massacres carried out by Christians.

Of course I recognise those events.
I started a thread to mark the British Army's work in defending the Muslims of Bosnia.

It is not true that this thread was "started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian."

Islam is not an evil religion.
I started the thread because the issue of Christian persecution was said to be under reported and recognised.
The Pope this Easter called it "silent complicity."

I am trying in a small way to break that silence.
I am sorry it makes some people angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:47 AM

I'd say Jim gave a very balanced assessment of the whole issue: "it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves."

I wish this thread had been closed when the discussion died last year. Has anything new been said this year?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 03:13 AM

What are these people on?
This thread was started originally to show what an evil religion Islam is in its persecution of the poor Christian.
When it was pointed out that all religions are guilty and capable of persecution, the immediate response was "thread drift" - they only want to talk about crimes against Christians and refuse to discuss those perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Now it's "you hate Christians" and were "determined to kill Christianity"
It is not Christianity or Christians Islam, Judaism.... that are the problem, it is the way that those various beliefs are used and abused by fanatics and, in many cases, by the Churches themselves.
Believe what you want; it would be wrong for anybody to try and prevent your doing so, but do not allow those who organise those beliefs to affect and threaten our lives as they have in the past and as they are doing now.
If you don't believe that 100,000 Muslims were killed by Christians in Bosnia, deny it and show it it not true.
This from one of the leaers, Radovan Karadzic
The West will be grateful to us some day because we decided to defend Christian values and culture".
If you say that fanatical Christian churchmen played no part in the slaughter that took place in Northern Ireland and that the conflict had nothing to do with an artificially partitioned country divided on religious grounds, say so and prove it is not the case.
All these people are saying here is, "my religion is innocent of any crimes and theirs is guilty" - which is what all religious conflict is all about.
Answer the points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 15 - 02:37 AM

I love how Christians make assertions and dismiss normal people as hating them yet start it in the first place.

I suppose it is the martry complex. A bit like train spotters ticking off trains they have observed.

If I hated Christians I'd be a sad bugger all round. But there again, most Christians I know don't make absurd claims on debate forums and then whinge when reality pops round for a chat.

If you don't want your delusion analysed for you, don't get on the couch.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 06:35 PM

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have.

Brendan, thank you. Sincerely. No joke. (But delete the "almost")

"Christians"(sic). I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Weel, let me refer you to your own elucidation, to whit: "Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous..."

I.e., there are plenty of folks - perhaps the majority of said folks - who claim to be ""Christians" who wouldn't recognize the teachings of Christ were they to rear up on their hind legs and bite them on the ass. Hence "Christians"[sic].

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe

Quote: "You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians ..."

Q.E.D.

Oh, and picking on the typo re: Galacians as if it was something of importance is pretty silly as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 05:22 PM

"Christians" (sic)

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please indicate where I have told you what you believe. I have extrapolated from statements that you have made but gone no further than is reasonable.

Pete, Greg has arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions because over the centuries they almost certainly have. Try reading a couple of descriptions of the sack of Jerusalem by the crusaders for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:53 PM

I was wondering how Greg arrived at the idea that Christians have killed millions. Or maybe that was his being sarcastic and ironic. It certainly is ironic, since atheist dictators and gvt have been responsible for more murders in the last century, than in the whole history of the church. And I expect that would be true even if you count the crusades and any other war the church might have endorsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:12 PM

You really do hate Christians don't you?

Christians? Not at all. "Christians"[sic]? you bet. Also assholes.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

But then its perfectly OK when you do exactly the same thing to others? Who's the plonker now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:07 PM

'Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary'.

Really, what evidence do you have for that?

You believe that advocating the slaughter of Christians is better than complaining and whinging about Christian persecution. You really do hate Christians don't you?

'The only one who said that they would like to see Christians is you, above'. Err, pardon? I assume that you can read, although the evidence is to the contrary.

Appending (sic) to a quoted word indicates that the original word is erroneous in some way. The word you wanted to use is Galatians, not Galatianz. The word I wanted to use was Christians, and that is the word I used. Hope this has been of help.

I always enjoy reading other people tell me what I believe, they are invariably wrong.

You're a bit of a plonker really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:06 PM

"Determined to kill Christianity,"
Nope just determined to stop them killing non Christians and raping children
Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, they are not entitled to take or make miserable the lives of others who do not share those beliefs - whatever that is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 04:02 PM

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Even when the people doing the "name calling" are entirely correct in their designation?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:58 PM

Determined to kill Christianity,

You finally have left reality completely behind, haven't you Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM

"You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads."

That says more about the people doing the name calling than Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:41 PM

Well said Dan. Vicious, ideologically driven morons.
Determined to kill Christianity, simply because they see it wrongly as "conservative"

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:14 PM

What a hate filled place mudcat has become. Good luck ya need it cause I have more important stuff to do. like anything fucking disgrace

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

"but I doubt it."
Me too
Christins massacred 100,000 Muslims in Bosnia, 8,000 in Srebrenica alone
- "no massacres by Christians"
He reopened this thread to invite us to mourn a massacre that took place a century ago
Double standard hypocrisy or what - and yet it is we he described as bigots
What is this feller on - must find out who his dealer is!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

You see, the reason Keith is questioned in general by so many people on here is exemplified in this discussion with Jim regarding an article in the Times.

Keith is incapable of believing what people type unless they can give some link or other.

Highly insulting. He is still calling two Muskets liars based in his inability to find corroboration. Far easier to call people liars.

Fucking fascinating...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:59 PM

Greg F, interested to see that you have abandoned your attempt to justify your comment as sarcasm

I have? News to me. Apparently YOU need to learn how to use a dictionary.

you made a flip, thoughtless remark that you realise is unacceptable

I realize no such thing. I think, in the circumstances, it is considerably more acceptable that the mindless maundering and whingeing about "Christian Persecution".

at least have the courage to say so - you would like to see Christians slaughtered.

The only one who has said that they would "like to see Christians slaughtered" is yourself, above.

Now, about that "as you sow, so shall you reap" business- do you doubt the word of God? Remember, too, that all this tsoris is part of "God's Plan", to which "Christians"[sic] are supposed to meekly submit. So why the outrage at Muslims? Shouldn't you be outraged at the Christian God?

Or would you prefer to discuss "The War On Christmas"?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM

You know Jim that's the second time KAOH has been named as a hypocrite in the last four hours by people on two separate threads.

Now KAOH is a great believer in consensus as he may admit he is one


............... but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:42 PM

Greg F, interested to see that you have abandoned your attempt to justify your comment as sarcasm. Also interested to see that you feel that a quote from Galatianz (sic), a      specifically Christian writing which you appear to loathe, somehow justifies your remark.
You have every right to despise Christianity and Christians and I would defend your right to express that. I would not defend your right to suggest that anyone, of whatever creed or persuasion, somehow deserves to be persecuted.
It seems to me that you made a flip, thoughtless remark that you realise is unacceptable and that is something that we all do on occasion; or you actually meant it. Can't see another alternative. If it's the former withdraw it, if it's the latter at least have the courage to say so - you would like to see Christians slaughtered. Islamic State, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab have made a very promising start.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:35 PM

"I condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians, again."
You have trivialised it by casting doubt on it and by suggesting there were only three - no comment on those who are not able to return to their homes for fear of being murdered.
You have yet to comment on the Christian who is responsible for creating hatred o Muslims in Northern Ireland.
Yoy have never commented on the sectarian inspired bloodbath in Northern Ireland egged on by fanatical clergymen - i fact you have described their hate-marches on the 'Glorious Twelfth as "harmless days out".
To have never recognised the 100,000 Muslims slaughtered by Christins in Bosnia (not to mention the torture, mass rapes and concentration camps) as Christian atrocities - instead, you continue to claim there have been no massacres carried out by Christians.
"Thankfully, no reports of any massacres by Christians such as those inflicted on Christians in so many places."
You are a hypocrite.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 02:06 PM

Raggy, Yes I condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians, again.

Jim, the journalist may have been lied to.
The story has not been picked up by any other news source.

The figure of ten thousand came from The Guardian quoting The Council on Foreign Relations.
Boko Haram kills Christians not Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 01:34 PM

"Jim, I did not accuse you of lying."
You implied I was
"It reports three murders, none of them seen by the journalist."
So the journalists were lying?
"the ten thousand Christians murdered in Nigeria just last year."
Can you prove ten thousand Christians were murdered last year - did the journalists count them?
You are a very bigoted individual?
These murders are religiously based whether they be Christian, Muslim, or those carried out by the Israelis, allegedly on behalf of the Jewish people.
It is no particular religion that is to blame, it is the power and authority that Churchmen take upon themselves - no religion is better than another in this matter and it is despicable to count heads to say they are.
All religions will continue to be a danger while they are allowed to dabble in politics.
This is an example of British Christianity for you - I don't suppose it registers on your sectarian Richter scale
Jim Carroll

WASHINGTON, June 3, 2014 — Some Muslims in Northern Ireland have announced plans to leave the country to avoid anti-Islamic violence. The announcement comes after an attack on a Muslim family in the city of Belfast, when crazed rioters broke into their home and assaulted them.

READ ALSO: Random acts of kindness by Muslim faithful too often ignored

The home invasion came after remarks from Belfast based Pastor James McConnell, who said in a sermon "The God we worship and serve this evening is not Allah. The Muslim god-Allah-is a heathen deity. Allah is a cruel deity. Allah is a demon deity." He later added that Islam is "a doctrine spawned in hell." Hospitalization was required for at least one of the victims.
A second attack occurred only hours later, also resulting in injuries. Victims told the Northern Ireland News Letter "The victim's friend, who had been cleaning up the broken glass outside the house after an attack earlier that day, said those involved in the attack had called the pair 'dirty Arabs' and 'Paki b******s.'"
The term "Paki" is viewed as a racial slur in Europe , particularly when directed at individuals of Pakistani descent (or of a similar appearance to those who come from Pakistan). The News Letter reports a young woman and a middle aged man have been arrested in connection with the attacks.
READ ALSO: Malaysia accused of shocking human rights violations, abuses against Shiite minority
Pastor Paul Burns of Adullam Christian Fellowship Church in Belfast agreed, telling the Belfast Telegraph "When Pastor McConnell is talking about it as a direct teaching of Satan – it is."
The Christian News Network reports "Following McConnell's May 18th sermon, the Police Service of Northern Ireland investigated the preacher for allegations of hate crime. Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness described the preacher's comments as 'hate mongering' and said the anti-Muslim statements 'must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.'"
McGuinness told the Daily Mirror "Coming in the wake of recent spate of disgraceful racist attacks against families in parts of Belfast and elsewhere, such inflammatory comments only serve to fuel hatred … [It is] essential that there is a full and thorough investigation of these comments and their potential to generate further racist attacks."
The First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, has also thrown his support behind Pastor McConnell. According to the BBC "[Robinson] went on to say that he would not trust Muslims either."
The remarks by the Pastor and First Minister have been met with strong criticism from the Christian community. Presbyterian Reverend Dr. Rob Craig spoke out against the remarks to the BBC, stating "They are not consistent with the Gospel of Christ and the love of God. I would be deeply offended if someone were to brand either all Presbyterians or all Christians with some extreme act by someone who claimed to do it in the name of Christ. I want to treat my neighbor as I would want to be treated myself."
"As Christians, it is our duty to spread the love of God across Ireland to those whom we meet and with whom we come into contact, irrespective of nationality, race or creed, and be gracious in doing so," said a spokesperson for another Church to the Belfast Telegraph. "I would reject any generalized view of Muslim people," he continued. "I do not view Islam as a monolithic religion but as taking different expressions and possessing within itself a variety of theological traditions."
"I believe that the Church of Ireland is right to engage in constructive dialogue with other religions. To do so is not to endorse other religious beliefs but is to recognize those of other faiths who are willing to join in such an effort will do so in the right spirit," said Canon Ian Ellis, editor of The Church of Ireland Gazette.
Facing a police investigation over instigating a hate crime, Pastor McConnell has attempted to backpedal by apologizing to the victims of the attack and offering to pay for the damages caused by the home invasion. It is unknown if the offer to pay for the attack counts as a legal admission of guilt in Northern Ireland. First Minister Robinson has also backed away from his remarks. Critics describe the apologies and changes in demeanor as "insincere."
"I'm regretting what happened to me. The friends told me yesterday 'we were right what we told you before, not to go [to Northern Ireland],'" said Muhammad Asif Khattak, a victim of the attack, to BBC.
BBC reports that hate crimes in the country are up 30% from last year, but successful investigations into attacks has plummeted to 20%.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Professor, instead of qualifying your response why not just condemn the killing of Muslims by Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 12:19 PM

Come, now, Brendan - just consider for a moment the amount of bad karma "Christians"[sic] have accumulated over two millenia. I also seem to recall something the "Christian"[sic] deity communicated in Galatianz VI : "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Do you doubt the word of God?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 12:04 PM

Jim, I did not accuse you of lying.
I asked to see the reports you referred to.

You have provided only one, which was not available to me because I do not subscribe to The Times.

It reports three murders, none of them seen by the journalist.
If they are true, I unreservedly condemn them as strongly as each of the ten thousand Christians murdered in Nigeria just last year.

Thankfully, no reports of any massacres by Christians such as those inflicted on Christians in so many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM

I am wed a full apology for your assertion that I was lying – I don't expect one – you don't do that sort of thing
I do expect an acknowledgement that Christians are just as likely to carry out sectarian murder as any other religious group
Going on the squirming that has taken place so far, I don't expect that either
Jim Carroll

From today's Times
CHRISTIANS TAKE REVENGE AS BOKOA HAREM IS DRIVEN OUT
Sectarian fury sweeps through a Nigerian town cleared of jihadists. Jerome Starkey reports from Michika
The oldest scars were smooth and dark, diagonal stripes across the right side of Ismail Ahmed's back, beneath an open sore. The fresher wounds were still pink.
Mr Ahmed had been arrested by the Nigerian army on suspicion of helping Boko Haram, but the tears he shed were for his brother, Umaru, who the soldiers had shot dead, he said.
The men had been hiding in the mountains outside Gulak, northeast¬ern Adamawa state, when in February the army advanced with vigilantes to recapture the town from Boko Haram.
"The vigilantes said we should come down and nothing would happen to us," Mr Ahmed said. "I went back. I stayed in my house for three weeks. Then the soldiers came and blindfolded me and took me to their base."
He spent four days in a military pris¬on, where he was flogged, and eight days in a police cell, in the state capital Yola, before he was released without charge last week.
His brother, a farmer, had been hid¬ing in another village and had waited longer to come down. His family did not learn that he was dead until a neigh¬bour called last week.
"They said he was trying to get home when he met the soldiers who took him away and killed him," Mr Ahmed said.
Nigeria's armed forces, with help from neighbouring Chad, Niger and Cameroon, have recorded a series of victories in recent months, retaking ground from the insurgents after years of routs and humiliating inertia.
Yet many Muslims who were
displaced by the fighting are afraid to go home for fear of harassment from the military or reprisals from their Christian neighbours, who bore the brunt of Boko Haram's savagery.
Saleh Jibril, who fled to a refugee camp in Yola, said that a friend had found his wife floating in a river with herhandstiedbehindher back after she tried to hike through the mostly Christ¬ian district of Michika, about 20 miles south of their home in Gulak, in March.
Salihi Ateequ, a member of the Adamawa state Muslim Council, said his sister, Hinidiyatu Tijjani, also went back to Michika soon after it was liberated, to check on their mother who had stayed behind.
"She spent four days in Michika, but as she was coming back she was ambushed,'' Mr Ateequ said.
She was carrying a baby on her back, and both of them were hacked to death with cutlasses.
"The Christians in Michika believe the Muslims invited Boko Haram to come and kill them," Mr Ateequ added. "So now it's vengeance and every Muslim is a target."
The tensions in Michika predate Boko Haram. The town already had wo market days, one on Saturday for Christians and one on Sunday for Muslims. It also had two rival water companies, selling plastic sachets of drinking water. GBM [God Bless Michka] Water was launched in 2012, resi¬dents said, because Christians refused to drink, or were unable to buy, the Muslim-owned Kaigama brand.
The road to Michika district was scarred with burnt-out shops and churches when The Times visited last week. School buildings were partially collapsed and the central mosque had been bombed by aircraft during the Nigerian advance. At least four major bridges had been destroyed and a Boko Haram tank, emblazoned with the insurgents' black logo, sat where it been abandoned.
At a church in Bazza the insurgents decapitated a life-size, fibreglass statue of St Peter and burnt the parish records office.
In Michika they had painted over shop signs and notices, as if the very words were an affront to their mission to prohibit western education. Arabic words were scrawled on the walls and a bank appeared to have been looted.
"The shops are all closed. Even if you have money, there is nothing to buy," said Cosmas Tizhe, a university lecturer.
Most of the people left there were either women or vigilantes. Local offi¬cials said that women returned before their husbands because they were less likely to be killed by Boko Haram and less likely to be suspected by the army.
"In the villages, almost all of the houses are burnt," Peter Salihu Gogura, Michika's commissioner for housing and urban development, said. "If the government comes in to rebuild these houses, definitely we can have peace, but if the government doesn't act, we will have problems."
Mr Gogura, who has both Muslim and Christian names, said the indige¬nous Christian Higgi tribe had a proud history of coexisting with the migrant Muslim traders, but he warned that Boko Haram had strained relations to breaking point.
"When somebody goes home and sees his house has been razed and he has nothing to eat and nowhere to lay his head, it's not easy. My fear is that as human beings, if you go home to nothing, and you know the people who caused this, you may not see eye to eye with them," he said.
For Umaru's widows, the decision not to go back was easy. "There is nothing for us to go back to," said Hawa, 39. But Mr Ahmed said he had no choice.
"I have to get back to prepare the fields," he said. "All we can do is pray to God to join our minds."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: BrendanB
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM

Greg F, delighted that you know how to use a dictionary. Doesn't change my view of what you said or the insight it gives into your character.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 15 - 09:56 AM

News reports today describe Christians murdering Muslims who fled Bokum Harem - deny it or condemn it.

Please show us Jim.
I would certainly condemn such murders.