BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."

That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:37 AM

Jim ~With respect [& I do really mean that], I think you are over-defining 'persecution' here. Those priests were not persecuting the children, they were abusing them. I am not trying to adjudge as to the greater or lesser iniquity between the two activities; but simply adducing this as an important distinction between two quite separate, tho both much-to-be-deplored, forms of misbehaviour. Priests who interfere sexually with children within their charge are guilty of 'abuse'; 'persecution' means oppressing or maltreating people, from a superior power-base, because of their ethnicity &/or their beliefs. Conflating these as you appear to me to be doing simply obfuscates, rather than clarifies, this important question.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."
Who has said this apart from yourself?
You said you couldn't think of Christians persecuting anybody - I gave you 20,000 examples
Only you have defended persecution here and elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:16 AM

So all Christians deserve to be persecuted.
Right Jim?
Stringsinger, many Christian communities ARE dwindling to extinction in the face of an onslaught of unrelenting persecution.
I know they are OK in US thanks.

Greg, are you going to give us the grounds for your certainty?
Whether true or not, the claims are believable, and worthy of consideration.
How and why can you just dismiss them as "preposterous" and "bullshit"?
You have the blind, irrational certainty of a fundamentalist.
Is that a fair description of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM

"Christian persecutors,"
A footnote to a discussion on Christian persecution:
An official report just made public shows that 800 Dutch clergymen have been found to have abused a total of 20,000 children between the years 1945 and 1985.
There is no reason to believe that the abuse suddenly ceased after that date.
I wonder if this qualifies as 'Christian persecution' and if it does, is it counted as serious or minor?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM

I know there is lots of persecution going on.
It hardly needs saying.
NATO actually went to war to stop the Christians persecuting Muslims in the Balkans.
Now, I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.
The Pope and Canterbury did not ask anyone to go to war with persecutors, just to stop being so nice to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:48 PM

I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Check out the wars that followed the break-up of Yugoslavia, Keith. Plenty of examples. And plenty of examples of Muslims in the driving seat too, of course.

And of course there's also Christian on Christian persecution - and Muslim on Muslim as well.

I can't understand how there seems this appetite on the part of some people to talk as if the fact that someone expresses distress at one lot of persecution implies they are happy about other persecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM

Aww did someone get another boo boo? Every December this same thread shows up.

Please be careful next December.


---


Now I will go back and actually read this thread...


Hmm, how did right wing Jews end up as the target?


To me its all one ongoing new and improved competitive religion business.
Christianity was derived from Judaism, Judaism was derived from Egyptian lore, Egyptian priests derived their lore from Assyria and the Nep Tepi...

Oh yes and Islam was derived from Christianity.


Thank goodness the eastern religions evolved on a seperate tree although the Greeks shared some multi god qualities with the east.

As for the Aztecs, I wonder if they should have mixed cocaine with mushrooms. Great astromomy but a pretty sick sacrificial society.

Opps my irrelevancy alarm just went off..,


I decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian. (We don't know anything about Zoroastrianism so he probably is getting away with all sorts of things)

As for institutional, persecution and execution, can't we all just have restitution of education and meditation and be done with it?


Share don't compare.
quote Hugh Romeney.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

There is nothing to disagree with in Kevin's post.
I do not feel contradicted by it. What is your point about it Don?
I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Stringsinger, it would be massive thread drift to take into consideration all the wrongs done in the whole of history.
I am only considering the present.
The persecution of Muslims in US has not been reported here, to my knowledge.
What is the scale of the mosque burnings please, and how do US Muslims go "underground."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM

Aketon, if you refer to those on your side as atheists, I would challenge your view that they are as intolerant as you say. In fact, many atheists know more about the bible and koran than the followers of those tomes. Many atheists have come from religious backgrounds and have experienced the damage that was done to them by their parents, priests, rabbis, ministers and parishioners.   In my experience, they are usually more tolerant and understanding then those in their environment that they have left.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM

Keith,

Christians have historically have done their share of murdering, imprisoning, rape or seizure of property, so it is too "like with like".

Christians are not dying out.   The majority of people in the US today are Christians.
They are all over Europe and in many Asian countries as well.

Muslim communities in the US are going underground because they are being targeted by Federal investigators. Mosques are being burnt and Muslims beaten and sometimes killed.

It's all very bad and a byproduct of religious intolerance that is not just one-sided.

It seems to be a pattern in every religion.

To paint Christians or Muslims with the same brush seems to me the height of intolerance and propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM

My point exactly Kevin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:31 PM

It's becoming increasingly unclear what is being referred to in expressions such as "it is true". This is a long thread, and a lot of issues have been touched upon.

Persecution of religious minorities is clearly going on in many parts of the world, and none of the significant religions escapes being both victims and perpetrators. That much is clear, and important - drawing up league tables of who has the worst record, either as victim or perpetrator, seems pretty pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM

But I have not tried to persuade anyone that it is true Don.
Read my posts.
If I am honest, I was hoping to raise awareness of the issue, but that is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

""I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?""

For one who is uncertain that it is true, you are expending a huge amount of energy trying to persuade everybody that it is.

WHY?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM

Greg, there are the cited reports and the lack of any challenge.
The issue made the news, and I put it in the OP.
I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM

England is a small country in a big world, Ian...

So for that matter is the USA, relatively speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

I have put up evidence

No, Keith, you have put up supposition and opinion.

No evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:19 AM

Just out interest Akenaton, as you wax lyrical about people needing faith and who are we to deny them.. Are you as inclusive these days when talking of those who bowl from the pavilion end?

You see, tolerance is not exclusive to tolerating religions..

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

Sorry McGraw, I should have made clear I was writing about in UK Parliamentary terms. I did originally say that but wasn't happy with the rest of a paragraph and cut the lot.. My bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:46 AM

Stringsinger,
Muslims are persecuted in the United States,

You are not comparing like with like.
The persecution referred to here is murder, imprisonment, rape, and seizure of property.

Also, it results in people being driven out, not welcomed in!
Christian communities are dwindling in the face of persecution.
Muslim communities are not declining anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:56 AM

Don,
His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group,

That is simply not true.
I have never done that.
I have put Israel's case at times when no-one else did, and I have challenged the veracity of some anti-Israel propaganda.

Greg, you have expressed certainty.
I never have.
I have just said, "You think it "bullshit" and you might be right."

I have put up evidence, not proof.
The Vatican statement, and the reports and research behind it, has not been challenged even by the many enemies of the Church.
The Guardian, which finds space to report the antics of a few hillbillies, found no-one to accuse the Pope of bearing false witness.
So I ask you again Greg.
How do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:37 PM

Well Frank....I am an atheist, but most of the aggressive rhetoric I hear comes from "my own side"

In fact I find it sickening at times, I know many people who gain the strength to carry on their lives through the teachings of Christ and their faith. People are not all born equal, some are weak and some are strong, some need sociability, some need solitude,some need the faith in something stronger than themselves......who are we to deny them?

I think Jesus was a great philosopher, he was no warmonger.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:24 PM

Christians are persecuted in foreign lands, Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan and other places but Muslims are persecuted in the United States, India and Israel. Mosques have been burnt. The problem is not just Christian persecution but ignoring the US First Amendment and the right to believe whatever you want if it doesn't harm others.

To set up a single instance of religious persecution is a red-herring to bait other religions that you don't like.

As an American, I have learned to tolerate many religions that I don't accept or particularly respect but I do respect the right of anyone to believe anything they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

Allowing guns into Christian worship services is worse than crying "fire" in a crowded theater, a complete misreading and distortion of the Second Amendment, as well as being hypocritical and hypoChristianical.

How many guns did Jesus own, for example?
'
Another question, who on this site is an authority on the Quran and it's meanings?
There seems to be a lot of speculation here that if applied to the Bible, would make the latter document offensive.

Religion has always been an excuse for hatred by some, no matter which one cited.

When violence becomes the modus operandi for religious expression, hypocrisy and corruption prevail, to whit, Constantine, Saladin, Hitler, John Bull, Savonarola, the KKK,
and all the churches that have practiced it.

Why is it that war and religion are most often together?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:19 PM

You would "leave him alone"?
I doubt that all your shouting and abuse, causes Keith anything other than mild amusement.
He has provided numerous examples of Christians being persecuted, whereas you have produced nothing to further your arguement.
Not one serious case of religious persecution of other faiths by Christians at this time.

Christ taught us to be non aggressive, to turn the other cheek, a philosophy of love.

I'm afraid you do not qualify.....please try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:49 PM

""It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?""

No Joe, I don't think any of us disagree with that.

The reasons for taking Keith to task have to do with his constantly taking up an extreme and untenable position on any subject to do with interaction of Christians or Jews with Muslims.

His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group, by highlighting every instance of aggression on their part, no matter at whom directed, while at the same time ignoring, or denying that they are suffering any aggression at others' hands.

When he makes one single post which exhibits any balance of viewpoint, I shall leave him alone, but please don't hold your breath while waiting for him to do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM

"I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others..."

That is a truly astonishing assertion by Ian Mather. I don't doubt that you believe it to be the case, Ian, but it just ain't true. There are many many countries where any non-Christian politician who doesn't do what you deny anyone does would be risking their career, or indeed their very life.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:12 PM

But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

And conversely, Keith, how do you KNOW that the research is NOT flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, likely, bullshit?

Lets see some documettation for the Opus Preposterous- then we'll talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM

You'd better look BEHIND YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

Michael, do you need higher education to know that the correct response is,
"Oh yes they are!" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:51 PM

Greg, the OP was just the BBC news report.

You think it "bullshit" and you might be right.
But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

I worry about people who just "know" unknowable things.
It smacks of superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM

As I have said before, those who wish to see "religion" abolished, are in the main following a political agenda.

Most are "liberals" who see religion, especially Christianity, as the last bastion of conservatism.
Dont expect any sympathy for persecution, or respect for your beliefs from these people, for they are liberal in name only.

The tide in the UK is beginning to turn away from the "anything goes society",the coming struggle for survival in Western economies will put an end to most of the idiocies.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

Come, Keith ~ don't tell me you don't know your Cinders from your Pan...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim...

"Interesting?"

Despite what the Opus Preposterous thought, I think its bullshit.

And I'm not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:21 PM

Oh no they're not!....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

Anyhow, Jim ~ sorry & all that, but I have that reputation for 'legendary pedantry' mentioned on another forum to live up to --one doesn't need higher education to know that Tinkerbell and the Fairy Godmother are quite distinct characters belonging to entirely different Yuletide entertainments.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:46 AM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim that might provoke an interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

I don't understand this thread's thesis and what the opening post was meant to evoke.

* Of course, Christians are persecuted.
* Of course, Muslims are persecuted.
* Of course, minorities are persecuted.
** All of them - and many more - in various and multiple places.

If the OP's wish was to deplore the state of the world, he didn't manage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

"I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation."
.,,.,.

Please, Jim ~~ no shoulder-chips: they are an intolerable burden.

Think he meant me, Keith, tho cannot quite follow the reasoning.

☤Tink☤

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:08 AM

Guest post confirmed as mine.
Fair points Ian, but there was a lot of anger expressed over this.

Jim, do you really believe I have a fairy godmother called Tinkerbell who you can talk to?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM

I'm not sure mudcatters, in the collective sense, are angry by a report about Christians being persecuted.

I can only speak for me.

I am dubious of the claim to be "the most" as this deflects from the sad state that the old planet is constantly in where lots of people get persecuted for their faith and many more persecute others. Evem more so, I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others, (carrying on and defending Sunday opening etc) or trying to get their faith exempt from laws that promote decency and tolerance, (Equality Act, Charities Act, etc.) I also note the Church of England has officially encouraged their members to speak out and accuse everybody else of persecuting them by having equality laws. Hypocrisy is an art best best practiced when your silly pointy hat has historically given you power over others.

The article in the original post was, according to the source, approved by The Vatican. I'm glad they approved it. After all, they know a bit about persecution, and not just historically.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM

Jim, I wish you had a friend who would talk to you about all this.

Ollaimh's post. I have no time for his posts, but they do not contain racism! ("racist diatribe")
You just see it everywhere!

You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry
A delusion or a dream Jim.
You can certainly not justify that.

If you want to make this all about me again, do it by pm., but much better you have an actual talk with someone about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

"No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, "
You have been supporting Zionist State terrorism through at least two threads - you have claimed it as acceptable "self defence", you have downgraded massacres to "failure to prevent", you have condoned the killing of "hostages (sic)" you have "just put the Israelis case" while accusing everybody else of being biased.
In the light of this, you have little chance of channeling any discussion on religious persecution just around your particular 'flavour of the month'.
You choose not to go near the suggestion that most religions would and have used persecution as a method of prozletising their cause if they find themselves in a position to do so - The British Empire was built on such persecution.
No-one has supported the Gazan rockets as being anything but "inevitable in the face of State aggression, persecution and war crimes - if you have evidence of this not being the case, please produce it, or stop repeatedly lying - you have already admitted that this is not true.
You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry - do not complain about this being pointed out to you.
My reference to smugness was aimed at Tinkerbell, your fairy godmother - you have nothing to be smug about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

This thread was prompted by a report that claimed Christians are the most persecuted religious group.
I do not know why that made so many Mudcatters so angry.

No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, apart from one person who defends the Gazan rockets as self-defence.

If I come across as smug, I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:51 AM

"Er, no-one has done that either."
Support for Zionist terrorism - appeal for persecuted Christians
So we don't get to discuss religious persecution other than against Christians or racial segregation in US churches - anything else we shouldn't know about?
"Here we go round the mulberry bush,"
I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM

Oh dear ~~~

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush

It's in DT s.t. Mulberry Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM

you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Er, no-one did Jim.

Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another
Er, no-one has done that either.

What is this about Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:46 AM

Nope - you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another is what this argument is about as fa as I'm concerned - unless you want to make yet another takeover bid for a thread
Of course you might have complained about olliam's somewhat inarticulate racist rant - but that's rather more in line with your own views.
Read the article for a change
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:32 AM

You seem to have got the threads mixed up again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:50 AM

Maybe there's some peace and goodwill to be found here - on the other hand, it might be "leftie lies".
Jim Carroll

IRISH TIMES Dec 14th
JEWISH SETTLERS ATTACK ISRAELI BASE
Clashes take place as rights groups warn on settlements
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem and MICHAEL JANSEN

AS JEWISH, settlers and right-wing activists broke into an Israeli army base in the West Bank, inter¬national human rights groups were warning that Israel had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
There were calls within Israel yesterday for militant settler groups to be classified as terrorist organisations after co-ordinated incidents against soldiers and army bases on Monday night.
Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called the events intol¬erable and held emergency consul¬tations with defence officials.
"We must deal with these rioters with a firm hand. We will not tolerate a situation in which Israel Defence Forces officers and soldiers are attacked and dis¬tracted from protecting Israeli citizens," he said.
After rumours spread that the army was about to dismantle a number of illegal settler outposts, about 50 militant youths entered
the regional Israel Defence Forces base near the West Bank town of Qalqilya, pushing aside the two sol¬diers on guard duty. Inside the base the settlers ran amok, slashing army vehicle tires, lighting fires and damaging prop¬erty.
Elsewhere, some 300 settlers hurled stones at Palestinian vehi¬cles before targeting the jeep of a senior West Bank officer. The officer was called a Nazi and lightly wounded after being hit by a rock.
In a third incident, settlers entered a closed military zone close to the border with Jordan and took over an abandoned struc¬ture next to a Christian baptism site. This group said they were pro¬testing Jordanian efforts to pre¬vent the construction of a perma¬nent bridge for Jews and tourists to the Temple Mount holy site in Jerusalem's old city.
Meanwhile, 20 international human rights and aid agen¬cies warned the Middle East Quartet - comprising the US, UN, EU and Russia - that during the past year the Israeli government had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, "pushing Palestinians to the brink" and "destroying prospects for a just and durable peace".
Trocaire, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, Human Rights Watch and Medico International said: "Since the beginning of the year more than
500 Palestinian homes. wells, rainwater harvesting cisterns other essential structures have been   destroyed ... displacing more than 1,000 Palestinians."
They said this was more than double the number of people dis¬placed over the same period in 2010 and the highest figure since 2005. "More than half of those displaced have been children for whom the loss of their home is par¬ticularly devastating," they added. In a statement issued ahead of a Jerusalem meeting of the quartet, the agencies said "plans for 4,000 new settler housing units have been approved for East Jerusalem over the past 12 months - the highest number since . . . 2006", while in November Israel declared it would "speed up construction of 2,000" additional units in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Expansion has been accompanied by a rise in violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians of more than "50 per cent compared to 2010 and by over 160 per cent com¬pared to 2009", said the agencies, quoting UN figures. This means settler violence has risen to the level of the peak year of 2005.