BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?

Subject: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:19 PM

Stop me if you've heard this one before, but...

I am trying to work on a relationship so that it is less work and more fun for me. The person on the other side has indicated that just the mere fact of my talking about what I want in a non-offensive, objective way, following all the guidlelines of relationship-building as we know them in the 2000s, that I will still hurt them. So I honestly do not know how to talk to this person.

Actually, as I look over my relationship landscape, I find that this dynamic is not just limited to one individual. It lives with a sort-of-friend who I am about to "fire," another individual who could be a better friend but takes so much work for me that I won't get any closer, and my former partner who would bristle when I tried to say, "When you do 'X, I feel 'Y."

Are people really that fragile? Should I just not worry about their feelings when they make it virtually impossible for me to tell them mine? Has this ever happened to you?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Becca72
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:31 PM

I have "fired" a couple of friends (and a relative) because I realized that I was doing all the work to maintain the relationship. Sometimes you just need to realize you've nothing in common anymore and move on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:07 PM

Becca... how true.

As far as relationships go, I don't relate. If I don't like someone, I don't talk to them, relatives included... with the exception of those I must speak with to maintain peace between them and relatives I do care about.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:14 PM

Be specific. You're being too vague.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:25 PM

GfS meant to ask, "Could you be more specific?"

Don't worry, GfS. You'll get the hang of it. Even I have learned, to some degree, the value of tact in relationship building. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:46 PM

Some people are exceptionally high maintainance and still others will never be pleased no matter what you do. There comes a point where the minusses far outweight the plusses and it can become quite destructive to one, the other, or both in that relationship.

There comes a time when you need to take a stock on some relationships. Even if you have been the wrong-doer and have sincerely seen the error of your ways and have said sorry, some will never forgive. I confess, when it comes to something like deceits and lies I am almost totally without forgiveness. Lots depends on just how valuable the relationship is/was but the more valuable it is the less forgiveness I have for certain indiscretions (lies and deceit). Discrimination and deep rooted bigotry I have no time for at all but, when it comes to relationships, one some has to discriminate for your own good.

When taking stock I look on it like a bridge with a weight limit that I have to go over. I have to decide what I can carry and take over. Sometimes some of the weightier things have to be left behind to make my load lighter. If the bridge collapses because of too much weight on it then we all perish.

I hope things resolve for you with whatever you are trying to save. Do the sums though. Some relationships become way too costly to you personally

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:02 PM

Good words, mp! Love the bridge idea. When trying to work through a relationship many years ago, I had two major dreams about trying to get across a bridge. Very meaningful.

Why do you want to save something that is a lot of work? What is your gain? What do you need from/ want from this relationship? What makes it worth the effort? or is it?

"When you do this, I feel..." was meant to be major-ly non-confrontational.   IF you say it in a non-confrontational manner. Sometimes it is not the words we say but the manner in which we convey them.

Life is too short to spend on .....

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:29 PM

'...I honestly do not know how to talk to this person..'
This says it all saulgoldie. When you are with the right person, communication becomes easy and welcomed. There's nothing more lonely than being with someone who either won't listen, or doesn't want to try and resolve problems. A good relationship (either with friend, lover, partner or spouse) should be easy and joyful. Dorothy is quite right. 'Life is too short to spend it on...'

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:32 PM

I think if it is a marriage, then give it your all. But these guidelines you refer to us learning in the 2000s..does she/he know about them, agree with them, use them? You pretty much have to be playing with the same set of rules.

If she/he is always difficult, and there is no marriage or no children, then both of you should make an honest assessment and if she/he is not willing to hear any feedback, figure out if it is worth being in that kind of relationship. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:39 PM

Communication should go both ways. IMHO anyone who refuses to allow another to express their opinions on the basis that it will upset them doesn't really care about anyone but themselves and is not really worth bothering with. Maybe they would be less 'upset' if you just ended that relationship. Maybe you could turn it round and tell that person that NOT talking about the subject is hurting you. If they don't get it then........

As Dorothy says, life's too short to have to keep considering other people's feelings at the expense of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:13 PM

Hey, end the relationship and become a singer/songwriter.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: J-boy
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:27 AM

That did work for Bob and Joan.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 May 11 - 05:40 AM

I am the same if there is someone who I just feel is not right I will go quiet and that included my son's ex-partner. Although I know I shouldn't be judgemental and I tried so hard to find some common ground. The new partner he has now is a joy for me to be with, she is friendly, good mannered, easy to talk to and I don't feel like I am walking on eggshells anymore it's great.

When I was younger I tended to go for the moody, broody types but in the long run it ended up being a nightmare, yes life is too short to do that to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:58 AM

So long as I can 'manage' friends with difficult personality traits, I'll tolerate far more from people I have a personal liking for, than people I don't. Including traits I don't particularly like.
If I can't 'manage' them (ie: if they want more time with me than I want with them, and encroach into my space) then those traits become harder to tolerate.

One of the things I probably have the least time for in a friend, is basic rudeness and tantrums - if directed *my* way anyhow.

I have dropped otherwise positive friendships for what I felt was inappropriate rudeness. I really don't appreciate being treated like crap because "they" have had a bad morning or are having their period, or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:40 AM

My parents celebrated their diamond wedding anniversary last year but their relationship all the way through has on occasion been quite a stormy one. Not violent but they have a banter which to the onlooker would seem like they are continually having arguments. They are a solid loving unit but for myself I could not live like that even if most of it is in good fun. I prefer calm.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:32 PM

Why do you want to save something that is a lot of work? What is your gain? What do you need from/ want from this relationship? What makes it worth the effort? or is it?

In my case, Dorothy, I rather learned the hard way. I was in an abusive relationship for nearly 4 years. I look back now and never recognise me back then as to who I am today. There was no pleasing this person. They made it out everything wrong was my fault and that only I could put it right. I had wrecked their life. They loved me and I was useless. I had to give up my friends to show I loved them. I was nothing without them. I would never be anything without them. I tried, unsuccessfully, for almost three years to get that relationship back to where it was for the first 6 months before it finally dawned on me. The person I was with those first six months was not the true person. The person I knew for a further 4 years was the true person. Once I finally opened my eyes to that fact there was no going back. I saw my bridge and I crossed over lighter....

People often invest huge amounts of love and time into bad relationships. Still others have no wish to see a relationship fail. Others try to remedy things and heal the scars. The list is almost as endless as amount of broken relationships because every one is different

However. Onward and upward! I never will allow someone to get so inside of me again as to be able to destroy who I am. I survived narrowly but I did survive :)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:27 AM

Too bad it was glossed over..but here are a couple, or three, equations used in psych/counseling:

A man will give love, and expect sex, and a woman will give sex, and expects to be loved.

As lust is to a man, fear is to a woman.

When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing.

Defining what is perceived as 'love', shouldn't be confused with expectations of one, to another, as fulfilling the others 'sense of self-entitlement'.

Don't confuse 'attention' with love!
...................................................................

Those are accurate, so before someone jumps up, and offers an contentious argument and opinion, think it through. None of these are 'value judgments'...and no one SHOULD take offense...unless it reveals something about yourself, that you don't want revealed!

Let's talk.....

GfS

P.S. If anyone wants clarification, just ask...............nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:00 AM

mauvepink, I admire you for breaking away and salvaging yourself as you did. It isn't easy. It's very sad how years of such treatment undermine and disempower a person. One ends up a hollow shell. Later one can see it all, but during it one blindly stumbles on, getting more and more frantic and depressed. I have had this experience (many years ago) and thankfully I finally found the last ounce of strength I possessed to get away. I felt as if the other person was in the right, and that I hadn't 'succeeded' in placating and pleasing them. Happily married now, I can see that a good relationship is easy, effortless, joyful and strengthening. If only I'd known this all those years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 May 11 - 08:41 AM

My ex-partner was controlling, his opinion was the only one, he chose our friends where to live etc. etc. We married too young I think but made it last 19 years tried to keep it going, rightly or wrongly, mainly because we had two growing sons from that marriage. One day I did find the courage to bring it to an end but it was still difficult there were many times that I could have changed my mind or that he could have changed my mind for me but the thought of returning how it had been made me more determined not to. My youngest son had forgotten what his father had been like and I even had him try to talk me out of it which was even worse.

I have been happier now than I have ever been through my married life.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 11 - 01:48 PM

Patsy: "One day I did find the courage to bring it to an end but it was still difficult there were many times that I could have changed my mind or that he could have changed my mind for me but the thought of returning how it had been made me more determined not to. My youngest son had forgotten what his father had been like and I even had him try to talk me out of it which was even worse.

I have been happier now than I have ever been through my married life."

Ok, I'd like to ask you a question, but not to attack you, but just a thing to ask yourself. Certainly feel free, not to answer on here...and I'm asking this respectfully, OK?

Like a man, a male child is going to generate love, (like you might have expected from your husband), and, as in the case with his father, overlook some hurts he might have to bear, just like he would when he gets married,(I'm speaking of the mechanisms). Do you feel that your happiness was of more importance to you, than your son's?...and, have you anticipated forward, to having a son 'pick his dad' from a variety that may come into your lives?....and have you considered, how that would affect his later life?..and again, what's more important?

Give it some thought, perhaps deeper.....keeping in mind, I'm not familiar with the details...just your side of an overview.

Respectfully,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:14 PM

A man will give love, and expect sex, and a woman will give sex, and expects to be loved.

As lust is to a man, fear is to a woman.

When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing.

Defining what is perceived as 'love', shouldn't be confused with expectations of one, to another, as fulfilling the others 'sense of self-entitlement'.

Don't confuse 'attention' with love!

I am not sure where those lines come from, which model of councelling or psychology they belong to, but I can see a lot of percieved wisdom in most of it. Of course, they are generalisations as the male-female dichotomy of behaviours and relationships is not always so clean cut these days.

I have looked at When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing and am getting lost on various interpretations. I must be being thick as I cannot grasp it's subtle (or maybe not so subtle) message. Could you expand on it a little more please? It can be parphrased in that When someone thinks they are guaranteed love they stop at nothing in what they will take. I would appreciate extra words on it and I assure you I am not being in any way 'confrontaional' or offended in my question. I am genuinely struggling with the meaning.

As for my contribution above, I had no intention to court sympathy in any way. Rather it was an explanation as to how I came to discover just how much some relationships can zap from you and that escape - crossing a brifge you may need to build yourself - is the only escape. I certainly know it is not unique as many people, both men and women, have been in abusive relationships. I am one of the lucky ones. I lived to tell the tale :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:17 PM

mp: "I have looked at When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing and am getting lost on various interpretations. I must be being thick as I cannot grasp it's subtle (or maybe not so subtle) message."

Pick one..but consider the other, as well.

I can get back to you, but I'm in a rush to get out the door...and I'd LOVE to expound on it.

Another possible way of describing it, somewhat, is, "Who ever demands the most, loves the least."

By the way, most of all of us have been on one side or the other, on the first one. I guess consequences, whether happiness or regret, should tell you which one you picked, at any given time!..Funny, how people who picked the wrong side, and don't learn from it, tend to blame 'somebody else'!!

Keep talking...we can ALL learn!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:53 PM

I'll wait but it may be tomorrow now before I read any response.

One thing though. I blame no-one but me for what happened to me. I gave them the power to do it to me. In the words of Chris Rhea "You must learn this lesson fast and learn it well..."

mp

(sorry for the previous blank post)

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 11 - 09:31 PM

Looking forward to it!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:21 PM

From GfS: "Do you feel that your happiness was of more importance to you, than your son's?...and, have you anticipated forward, to having a son 'pick his dad' from a variety that may come into your lives?....and have you considered, how that would affect his later life?..and again, what's more important?

Give it some thought, perhaps deeper.....keeping in mind, I'm not familiar with the details...just your side of an overview. "

If mom is not happy, no one is happy. I just today saw somewhere, "The best way to treat depression in a child is to treat the mother."

I was so depressed in my marriage, I was on anti-depressants and considering suicide - but I would not do that to my children. I lasted 8 years and got out so my children would not grow up in that dreadful situation. I got out FOR the children as much as to save my own life, which is also FOR the children. Without a mother, they would have been left with a diagnosed psychopath for a father.

I spent the next 30 years worried that my sons would turn out like their father. They did not. What would have happened if I had stayed? Well, I can tell you that when I found the strength in myself to stand up for myself, I got beaten physically instead of only verbally.

I am alive today. My two sons are close to 50 and each is in a loving relationship, each with two beautiful children - ages 9 to 25. My children still have a mother, their kids have a grandmother and my great granddaughter ....

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 May 11 - 03:51 AM

To be totally honest my younger son who was 14 at the time was I think looking at it from more of a financial point of view. As for a variety of suitors, lol, not that many. For a while I didn't go or do anything to look for anyone in particular. That happened when I least expected it and the man and I still have such a good friendship but I am reluctant to make it permanent even though there is a lot of affection between us. Who knows a more permanent arrangement might be something to consider in old age rather than now.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 May 11 - 07:19 PM

Dorothy, Being as you were on anti-depressants at the time, have you ever questioned your perceptions, and/or if your son would, or could keep from you his real feelings, as not to set you off again..which I'm sure he had to live with?
Also, anger going outward is anger..anger going inward is depression. So, who were you so angry with???..Yourself excluded???????
Bottom line: I think that projecting YOUR feelings about YOUR experience would be HIGHLY questionable, when addressing another person's feelings, to a whole other circumstance!!... that are not your own..such as mp's.
But I'm glad you're making peace with it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 May 11 - 07:44 AM

My feelings are not, nor should they, be used in any way as comparison for another person's feelings and experiences. Dorothy is quite entitled to have felt and acted the way she did in order to get away from the situation she was in, in my opinion. She has already stated she thought lots about her children at that time and I see no-one as fit to be able to judge her final actions whether they turned out right or wrong. She did what she felt she had to do and she alone has had to deal with those consequences with us now questioning her motives. Or have I got this wrong too?

With no offence intended whatsoever, I think the onus of responsibility should be on the actions of the persons who made her have to come to such decisions and I would far easier lay blame at his door than hers if Dorothy's description is correct. We have no reason to doubt her account as she has nothing to gain here from embelishment, so... I wonder how many times he has asked what affect he had on his children's lives considering how his abuse had reached out?

I am all for people looking at their own lives, mistakes, actions and solutions - in helping them move forward - but I am not an advocate of making people go back and look at outcomes that are now not possible to change. It seems to me that can only produce more guilt where guilt has already been felt enough. By all means learn lessons and change things for the future, but the past can become a prison of guilt for many if no escape has been achieved. I see this far too often in clients, of both genders, for it to be healthy for their futures.

For me Dorothy's replies - which she certainly did not need to offer - tell of success for her and her children. What can be achieved by (seemingly) making her go back and take on more gulit for her required actions back then? When some sleeping dogs lie, then let them be?

Just an opposite, but non-opposing, opinion

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 May 11 - 07:47 AM

... I should have added that we are into thread creep here and not really answering saulgoldie's OP, so maybe this should get back on track. I apologise for any part I have played in progressing it to go further off topic

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 11 - 10:03 AM

I understand "A man will give love, and expect sex, and a woman will give sex, and expects to be loved". I don't think it's quite right. Quite frequently women will not "give sex" and it's not the whole point anyway as (I would have thought) most men when wanting sex will want the woman not merely to "give sex" but to want sex too.

Further, many men will not "give love" but rather will want sex and if finding that reciprocated will progress to fonder emotion - and indeed that may be so of many women too. Indeed I'm not sure that one "gives love": one loves or not, and not by choice.

As for the rest of what FFS is on about, I have absolutely no idea what it means. FFS, would you care to clarify.


But to return to the OP - if you aren't getting what you want, weigh the cost of jumping ship. If it's going to cost you the house, stay put and suck it up if that is your calculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:05 AM

OR if it's your house, then get out before they have lived with you as a common law partner for two years, at which point I believe, they may have legal claim on some of your property? Someone might want to check that, but I know a couple who separated just prior to two years on that basis (it had been a difficult and one-sided relationship).

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:31 AM

"As lust is to a man, fear is to a woman."gfs

What? I am far too literal-minded to understand that phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 May 11 - 12:15 PM

Same here Ebbie ... I haven't a clue what gfs is trying to get across with that one .... left minded .... probably .... since I'm a damned Canadian commie.

biLL .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 11 - 12:23 PM

Not as such in England Lively.

Who knows what might pass for law in the various states of the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:41 AM

"As lust is to a man, fear is to a woman."gfs

What? I am far too literal-minded to understand that phrase. Ebbie

That one puzzles me, too. GfS, can you assist?

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 11 - 02:09 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 11 - 01:55 PM

"As lust is to a man, fear is to a woman."gfs


As I recall, gfs once before- a year or more ago - posted this rhetoric and was challenged at that time also. I don't know in which thread it was asserted, nor do I remember what explanation was given. I do seem to remember that the answer given wasn't worth following up on.

Let's see if we can come up with a lucid bit of reasoning:

"lust to a man"- hmmmm. It has not been my experience or understanding that men are frightened by lust, their own or their partner's. So obviously I'm on the wrong track.

"as fear is to a woman"- hmnmm again. I don't think fear is an aphrodisiac to a woman.

I need help. How do the two statements relate?

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Micca
Date: 22 May 11 - 02:33 PM

I think he(?)has got it completely wrong the proper analogy should read
"Lust is to Man as Chocolate is to Woman"

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:21 PM

God, it all counds like working on an old banger of a car - "firing","maintainance", "bridge construction", "salvaging".

I'm rather glad they hadn't invented "relationships" in my day...

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:27 PM

"Lust is to Man as Chocolate is to Woman" Micca

Now that I do understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:18 AM

Or cheesecake topped with cherries.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 23 May 11 - 10:10 AM

*pops in*

Someone mention chocolate?

*pops out and apologises for threading and creeping again*

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 23 May 11 - 11:58 AM

The only thing I've been able to think of is along the lines of lust supposedly being a frequent (or even near-constant) state of being for a man,
so perhaps it means that women experience fear as often as men experience lust?

If so, can't say as I agree...

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:12 PM

Building pigeon-holes out of silver threads of psychobabble does not an effective therapy make. There's a class of therapy that seeks to feed people insight based on the therapist's opinions, but I think the sad truth is that one's own evaluations and one's own self-generated categories are the only ones that will bring about growth.

I'm with McGrath on this one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 11 - 12:59 AM

Yorkshire Yankee: "The only thing I've been able to think of is along the lines of lust supposedly being a frequent (or even near-constant) state of being for a man,
so perhaps it means that women experience fear as often as men experience lust?
If so, can't say as I agree..."

Well, at least someone is THINKING, instead of re-acting..(which is not the same as 'responding'...but that's another issue!

Now that we've heard from various responders....how or why can you not see the parallels??..(being as you seem to have opinions) are they explainable??..because the equation IS accurate.....so may I inquire as to your PERCEPTIONS?

Eagerly awaiting........(this is NOT a test, nor, as I said in my first post, mentioning that, it's NOT a value judgment, nor not up for debate....so what is your perceptions, that make this so mysterious?)
Yankee was the closest...but let me steer you to 'the fomenting of such emotions', rather than the frequency( YY: 'so perhaps it means that women experience fear as often as men experience lust?')

Oh, and stick to what you really KNOW, not what is 'expected' of your answer!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:43 AM

Oh, and by the way, instead of trying to 'poke holes' in me and what I said, why not ask Mauvepink, who I regard as honest, what she found, that had wisdom, in what I said???...instead of being threatened?

(Besides MP gave us a GREAT quote, a while back, that told me she isn't afraid to look at herself, honestly, and still be able to poke fun at herself...in a harmless way..that also invoked THOUGHT!)..,,I like, and respect that!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:40 AM

I did all that? Who? What? Where? When? I never did it on purpose... honest! Not sure what quote is meant as I come out with so much rubbish at times....

In honesty though... I am well capable of being threatened. I am well capable of getting things back to front. I'm capable of whole loads of emotions. But, then, isn't everyone? Some threats are best left ignored as the person threatening is often the one who is most scared.

All I can ever do is tell it how *I* see it and opine. It would be rude of me to suggest only I have an answer, or the way, or am right. I know what is wrong to and for me. I only know how to be me. Other's have their own buttons to be pressed and paths to be walked. That does not mean I will not stand my ground on a principle I feel is correct and true. My wiring is never that hard wired though that I cannot change stance given enough evidence to change a viewpoint. None of this is particularly special. People do it as individuals every day. I am just one OF millions.

It's what makes life so rich, diverse and embracable most of the time

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 24 May 11 - 05:09 PM

Hmmm... well, here's another go:
The sight of a woman is as likely to inspire lust in a man,
as
the sight of a man is to inspire fear in a woman (?)

An interesting thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:14 PM

Of course the sight of a woman would not always instill lust in a man no more thanthe sight of a man would produce fear or loathing in women. Women are certainly capable of being lustful just as men can be scared.

Sterotyping so interferes with a making a good assessment on any person I suspect (and I am not saying that is your intention in any way here Yorkshire Yankee).

A typical example would be for us all to describe what the word "countryside" conjurs up in our thinking. There would be many many similarities in so many descriptions, but it's the subtle differences to each individual that makes the description unique. No-one can ever say how anyone else sees the countryside, interprets, feels about it, or will react with it. Hence we can say things that stereotype what the majority would mean by "countryside" but can never be sure exactly what they mean unless we communicate with them. The stereotype alone is seldom sufficient to make a value judgement on anything or anyone and, very often, in human interactions leads more to wrong conclusions than solid reference.

I'm rambling again. I'll shush! lol

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:19 PM

Mauvo the Pink, Your quote, which I thought both insightful, witty and hilarious, because of the little hidden truths in it, was "I can't even live up to my own double standards"...(or something close to that). I've even quoted that to friends, giving you full credit for posting it..whether or not it was original or not, hardly matters...it's that kind of self effacing wit, that gives you're opinions a lot of consideration!!

York Yank, An interesting take...not exactly what I was thinking..BUT, have you ever noticed, I'm sure a lot of men have, that let's say you're attracted to a woman, and affectionately, you make a slight play for her...she re-acts, or possibly over re-acts, fearful..almost to the point of panic ...you try harder, thinking if she 'only' knew, that you meant her no harm, she would see, that you actually had gentle affectionate, sexual kindness to show her...she escalates her fear...and pretty soon, you'd think your original intent was to force yourself on her?? Meanwhile she's acting like you're intending to 'rape' her.

If you can relate to that, or ever had that experience, all I can say (and in jest), is "Oh, you perverted brute, you!!"
Funny how your intentions can be misconstrued!

Well, that's what you get for being 'naughty'.....(wink)

Oh, by the way, its best to leave such creatures alone..or you might end up with her....and NOTHING you could ever do for her, would EVER be 'right'!!..You'd ALWAYS be auditioning!
.....Then again, SOME like a little of that....but that is way too touchy and difficult to gauge, without knowing that particular person.

Best to not be promiscuous!
But think it through more....because what we writers NEED is to THINK, out of the box!!...(the box that others provide for us to stay within!)

Regards to both of you!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:21 PM

Mauve, we cross posted. Yes lust or fear is certainly not confined to either one sex.....most of the time!..(wink, and a grin)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:19 PM

I think the phrase I may have or not paraphrased is one I have used often from Ally McBeal... "We are women... we have double standards to live up to!". I have used it with levity in several light-hearted and not so light-hearted threads here on Mudcat. Alas, I cannot take the credit for that one

My self deprication is based on the principles of getting an insult in about me before someone else can and, often, an honest opinion of myself. People think I put myself down when all I do is tell the truth through my own eyes. I have no need to put myself down. There are plenty in life who will gladly try to do that for me.

C'est la vie!

What it appears you are alluding to in your male/lust, women/fear situation happens all the time in many other animals. The females often allows an intimidating/coercing male a chance to mate literally to get him off her back! Male can be a nuisance and the sooner he goes off to find sex somewhere the sooner she can get on with feeding again and increasing fecundity in many cases. Thankfully many human females have discovered the plusses and minusses of such behaviours and the addage that "God loves a trier" gets nowhere close to the poor female who just wants the potential suitor to get lost somewhere and leave her alone. God may like triers but I think women (on average) still prefer men to be gents and not be pratts! Let them go try somewhere else! Most women do not see men as rapists but some can sure be a nuisance. On the other hand, a Gentleman is always a pleasure to spend time around (but that is only my opinion)

I digress lol

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:39 PM

That sort of "God loves a trier" attitude is pretty unacceptable (AFAIK) in the UK and was probably part of the WWII adage that the trouble with the Yanks was that they were "overpaid, oversexed, and over here".   If it be asserted that women should fear men, it being natural, and increases the prospects of mating, then it leaves a pretty revolting impression of the proponent.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Amergin
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:49 AM

Just give her some money, do your thing and go home....no hassle, no nagging, no marriage, it's perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:55 AM

Wow. It appears that not only do I not know men, I don't know women either.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:17 AM

Mauvepink: "My self deprication is based on the principles of getting an insult in about me before someone else can and, often, an honest opinion of myself. People think I put myself down when all I do is tell the truth through my own eyes. I have no need to put myself down. There are plenty in life who will gladly try to do that for me."

A BIG FUCKING BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Same happens here, and people think I'M putting THEM down!
I have to keep posting. "I'm on YOUR side!"

Now, Richard: "....the trouble with the Yanks was that they were "overpaid, oversexed, and over here".

I can sure sympathize with you there!.....(but in most of our hearts, there's some good stuff going on....some just need to be reminded of prioritizing!)

Ebbie: "Wow. It appears that not only do I not know men, I don't know women either."

Hey, learning can be a blast!!...and it certainly unlocks the meanings of some overlooked songs, or in the case of song writers, and writers just in general, running that info through your individual filters can inspire some very creative work!...both in the lyrics, and vocal delivery...not to mention the basic melody and dynamics of it!
If we can laugh at our own roles in the human comedy, then you can help bring peace into others hearts...wouldn't ya' think?

Respectfully to All,
GfS

P.S. Keep it up!!...I got more equations worth hashing around....when we finally get this one nailed down!

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:24 AM

Mauvepink, I've developed a different strategy throughout life- instead of self-deprecation I brag on myself. The idea is to make people laugh rather than have them tumbling over themselves to reassure me that I'm not so bad.

Different strokes, and all that...

As for self-aggrandisment (quite different from what I'm talking about) I try not to indulge. Unlike some people I don't have all the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:26 AM

Ebbie, and Mp....Maybe you could share feelings about the 'what' and 'why's' about what I'm going to lay down..ok?...

In the character description, and in the dialogue of a certain script, there is this sentence: "She's a woman confronting her fulfillment, and it terrorizes her.".....

Why would that be??

Scary, huh?

Have fun with that!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:50 AM

Ebbie: I can see how your strategy would work too. I would make a total hash of trying to make myself look good though so I don't even try it. That said, my self deprication is not to get people to say nice things about me either. I seldom take compliments and feel embarrassed when I do get them. It's just how I am so no offense meant. I get lots of laughs though too so, as you say, it is down to different strokes and all that... Whatever works for you has to be right for you generally.

"She's a woman confronting her fulfillment, and it terrorizes her.".... could mean several things and none.

Is she terrorised at confronting the fulfillment or is it the fulfillment that terrorises her? Finding we have needs we wish we never had, being needier than we thought, discovering our selfish urges which we once thought were altruism... there's no end to such deep thinking and, far too often, an answer is not found even when sought. One thing IS for sure: I certainly do not know all the answers, know it all, or even some of the questions! I would to appear that I do.

As for Ebbie and I sharing... welllllll, we do. We all share things on these boards. I suspect we seldom ever get to know anyone truly well on here unless we have met in life. Thinking you know someone on a forum could be a big mistake as so much of them is hidden. Besides: I would not wish to perturb Ebbie with my feelings. They terrorise me! ;-) NOT!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:11 PM

"She's a woman confronting her fulfillment, and it terrorizes her.".... "

Frankly, I consider that a bad sentence. To 'terrorise' implies stalking or sustained effort and it is difficult for me to think of 'fulfillment' as having physical properties.

A better sentence, imo, would be: She's a woman confronting (don't like that word there either) her fulfillment and it panics her.

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:15 PM

Mauvepink: ..."Thinking you know someone on a forum could be a big mistake as so much of them is hidden."....

That's why when I post, I try to communicate to the higher common denominator of intelligence, wit, and independent thinking, etc., rather than the lowest common denominator of intelligence,..which is what those in propaganda and mind control would rather have us NOT do!...and boy!, 'they' have gotten a lot of people used to thinking and talking stupid!...as if the ONLY things we know, could only come from 'them'!!!!

As to the thread topic, I guess the question now would be, in regards to 'fear'...why would a woman be fearful of confronting her fulfillment? ..or is it a fear of the depth of what it would require of her??..for what she intuitively knows?...........and by the way, I'll get to the guys as well. Women were only HALF of the equation!

I really hope Ebbie is getting a kick out of this! It is incredibly fascinating.....and only a small manifestation of the bigger picture, of what is going on..underneath!

Oh, and Richard, and York-Yank, hang in there...love to get your thoughts as well!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:24 PM

Ebbie, we cross threaded....

Panic is a good word as well. Either panic or terrorize are applicable, but what is important, is that whatever it is, it comes from WITHIN, and messes with ya'...tries to get you to compromise on what you know is right...therefore leaving a door open...for someone to make things go so very wrong....OR.....causing women to keep 'testing' the man, as to address the unanswered places in question, that she overrode.
It's rather a bummer, and has hurt a lot of families, children and husbands, not to mention the woman, herself....just look all around you, and at a LOT of our generation!......but we'll come back to that..I think!

Hope the baking is going good!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:22 PM

I have to say that it seems a great deal of guilt is being put on women's shoulders about women having, holding and responding to ideas and feelings. I know you have said you will get to the men but I would not leave it too long.

The actual idea that a woman can have reach her own fulfillment - not some male imposed idea of what a woman should be - is pretty new territory in 'modern' society. I hope we are not going to be revisiting 'bad times' in women's herstory? I also have to caution that I will be away from this thread too if personal attacks on people and their relationship with their parents start! No-one cam know that either.

In many things women and men are as different as chalk and cheese. The similarities that we do share may actually be based on very different needs and stimuli. Once more that rather crude word - stereotyping - comes to mind. When I look at my relationships with people of both genders I can see that each one is so very different because the people are so different. When I look closer in to friends it is the diversity that each represent and present to me that makes each of them special. It can be the very things they are that are different from me that makes it all work so well. Sometimes one can over-analyse something that is good and still get no answers. Is it not best, then, to just simply enjoy it and be blessed by what you have?

For this reason I find one piece of prose so very helpful as a general philosophy for life: The Desiderata


mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:19 PM

Well taken, mp.
That being said, blaming parents for EVERYTHING wrong with how another cannot achieve their own selfish bullshit, is most often meaningless!
And you are correct in your phrase, "...In many things women and men are as different as chalk and cheese."
In many cases, women in their 'quest' for recognized 'equality' try to be LIKE men, or their concept of what that is...and the same is true, with men.
It is a popular misunderstanding that 'different' has something to do with 'equality'...I'd rather look at the two, as HALVES of the whole, both bringing something unique to the table. It is only ignorance and selfishness that promotes the denigrating of either side, for one's 'self advantage'..which in itself is only self destructive!!!
I found it hugely advantageous, in the course of counseling, to point out the 'differences', and then proceed to have the people have FUN, with exploring them together, finding the benefits, and co-operating with each other, in a happy way, which in turn, gives GREATER appreciation, and gratitude, that someone is there for the other, bringing the best of what they may.....instead of coercing each other with guilt and belittling-intimidation mind-games....besides, the understanding of where the other is coming from, has been GREATLY overlooked, and mostly ignored....WHICH IS STUPIDLY SELFISH!!..no matter who's doing it!!

Fair enough?

This thread has the potential of being FANTASTIC and healing!...but the why not?..Musicians, writers, and the such are a 'peculiar people', capable of AMAZING insights, and the abilities to share them!!.....(Sorta like men and women with their finger on the pulse, eh?)

Still haven't heard from the others, as to their thoughts.
Keep sharing!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:28 PM

I am far too busy getting on with my own life than wanting to be like anyone else. Who else can anyone be but themselves?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:45 PM

But of course!...Why would you?..I agree.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 May 11 - 04:06 AM

Well, after a wee bit to consider, a couple of points...its time, as per aforementioned, to go to the other part of the equation..'as lust is to a man, fear is to woman'. Interesting to the 'man's side', that so really not much is really ever 'discussed as the women's side...Well, ever since the 70's and 80's and 90's, so much attention has been given to women's inner needs....but not too much for the man's.
Matter of fact, there was a lot of pressure put on men to 'learn' about women's inner needs, and related things, that men come off, as they say, 'Down deep all men are shallow?'"
Do you feel more understood, or misunderstood?..or not understood that you understand?...and if so, why?......and/or, does it matter?

Ok, guys, don't be chicken....I won't tell!
But we can talk about it, amuse, entertain, and abuse ya'...but maybe some light could be shed. The girls went so far, and pretty quick..and no one got beat up.....so go for it!
(It actually can be fun!)

Most Respectfully,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Relationship Issues. What Else Is New?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 May 11 - 01:22 PM

OK, guys, try explaining why, when you have to do something for your wives, is it different than when you did it, when you were FIRST with her.

Too deep too quick for the guys??..who usually don't like to be bothered talking about their 'relationships'

GfS