BS: new £18k a year private UK college

Subject: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 03:35 PM

well, that didn't take long

It is for 'gifted' pupils, but no doubt the most important gift will be deep pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM

Yes, Richard Dawkins and A C Grayling no less. It's just a fact of life, it seems, that the talented have rich parents.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM

Comparisons-
U.S. fees and tuition is as low as $5000 for some state schools to as high as $50,000 (higher for medical schools). An "average" is about $27,000.
Add cost of living, $5000-14,000.

Example for a good state university, Wisconsin- $11,000 for state residents, $26,000 for out-of-state.
Private schools like Harvard, Princeton are about $38,000; California Institute of Technology, $36,000.

18,000 pounds would not be considered unusual for a good U.S. school.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM

No, but compare it with current cost of 3725 per year (I think) at Oxford. Si Since the election that has short up to 9000 at even relatively unknown universities. As far as I know, the US has paid large fees for college for generations. For us, it is a huge increase over around 10 years

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:37 PM

Smiley (emertitus, at the time well over 60) told me that he was funded at over 90% by the government and that he caught a design mistake a on highway intergchange project and saved the government that funded his education over $1M dollars during his 3rd summer as a student engineer.

Charging preposterous sums to educate our young seems counterprductive to me.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:49 PM

It's meant to be. It's so that he rich can stay in charge. Who cares what there is for the rest as long as the rich stay rich?

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:01 PM

Ok, you gift the campus, equipment and salaries. Universities as a whole do not make a profit and are always in need of gifts and bursaries.
Some few are able to use sports (U.S.) to aid in raising a few funds, but the alumni are always being asked to help fund scholarships. Some state schools (like the University of Texas system) had large endowments from land and natural resources provided to them when they were founded, but many don't. Stanford University had the railroad entrepreneur Leland Stanford behind the school at its founding, but gifts are important to keep it going.

A good science curriculum takes many millions to keep in the forefront.
Even business administration courses barely breaks even with charges of $50,000 at the better ones.

The governments should give better support, but wars, subsidies, the drug war nonsense, etc. fritter money away that could better be spent on education.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:24 AM

Apparently the entrance criteria for this college is 3 A levels, 1 above a D. That is *way* below the average requirements for a UK University, which will more typically ask for 2 As at grade A and one at B. So forget any fig leaf that this is for gifted children. Then there is the question of, for instance, Dawkin's role. There is a clear conflict of interest between his role at Oxford and this new one. Will he resign (or be asked to leave) his Oxford job? If not, is he actually at the new college or merely lending his name in exchange for dosh? Too many questions and one bad smell, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: harmonic miner
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:40 AM

If you're gifted it doesn't matter where you study (if anywhere)

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:39 AM

If you accept the idea of tuition fees as a principle, and I know many people here don't, then its like this..

£9K per annum gets you pot luck. £18K per annum gets you exposed to ides and theories espoused by some of today's most exciting theorists.

More to the point, there are degrees and there are degrees. In the fields these guys are specialising in, such a degree will look good on the old CV and that, in case nobody notices, is the point in the first place.

Harmonic Miner says that if you are gifted, it doesn't matter where you study. I cannot disagree more. Clever kids being held back in sink schools who then never get a chance to realise their potential? A good teacher in such a school who many people look back on with affection because that person helped instil in them the idea of getting on in life, and in many cases helped persuade parents that their offspring is capable of getting to university after all.

A good university will bring out the best in a young person, and from what I read of this one, relevant employers will like to see it on a CV.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 04:15 AM

Q - the thing is here in the UK we have a system where we (supposedly) look after all people in our society, which means free education and free healthcare. These are universal and close to the heart of many people in this country and most of the people making the decisions about their future have benefitted from them in the past. Only now, because of a) past mismangement and b) a sadly misplaced idealism and c) overspending on wars and weapons, they are under threat and we are threatened with a US-style system of both education and healthcare i.e rich = get educated and stay well, poor = get to fuck and die.

This is not what our fathers and grandfathers fought for, it not what the majority of people in the UK want and it's bloody uncivilised at this point in history having a society where your education and healthcare is based on if you can pay for it and lines the pockets of private businesses.

So an £18k p.a. university with Dawkins and Grayling is a brilliant idea; how ever allowing only the offspring of rich to people to go is an execrable notion. If those willing to teach in an academy for toffs were to get out into the country and teach all our kids how much of a boost to the education of our future citizens might that be?

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 04:27 AM

I've seen no mentuion of library/computer facilities. Presumably they are buying in to the University of London's Senate House library (taxpayer funded) and making use of online sources paid for and developed by the public sector.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 07:03 AM

But there are still ILPs, differentiation and safeguarding - same old rubbish!!

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 07:20 AM

Its still the Tories living with their Old Established Biblical precepts !

To he that hath shall be given , even unto abundance , to he that hath not shall be taken away even the little that he hath

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 09:05 AM

£9K per annum gets you pot luck. £18K per annum gets you exposed to ides and theories espoused by some of today's most exciting theorists... In the fields these guys are specialising in, such a degree will look good on the old CV and that, in case nobody notices, is the point in the first place.

Is it? Might not part of the point, from a wider perspective, be to give meaningful CVs that take account of ability and attitude rather than wallet size?

Let me give you an example. My daughter is studying for an MA and tomorrow she and four other people are supposed to presenting feedback on a paper that one such 'Exciting Theorist' is due to publish shortly. For the past two weeks she has been trying to persuade the other members of her group and get up do something. Even reading the paper would be a good start. But it is not happening, so she is having to present her analysis of the entire paper, not just the section she was allocated.

All the other members of the group come from private schools and have had every stage of their education paid for by the parents, but they are simply uninterested. However, they will leave with 'a good CV' because it is one of the top Universities, even though they haven't actually bothered to do more than the absolute minimum. My daughter and one or two others have come up through the state sector and, because they have worked at every stage, are only there because they ARE interested.

This is not an anti-private education rant as such - there are some on her course from that background who are interested and work hard. But it is a rant against the view that what education is about is getting a good CV. Too focussed on the individual and not enough on the other interested parties, like the businesses who receive the CV, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Jeanie
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

Roger the Skiffler: You're right. Buying into the University of London's facilities is *exactly* what they are doing - including the use of ULU, the Union, for social/sports activities.

Their website: New College of the Humanities makes for very revealing reading.

It would appear that they will have barely any premises of their own, and will be using Senate House Library and London University buildings for teaching spaces.

From reading the website, it doesn't look as though the Big Cheese Professors will actually be making much of an appearance, either. There is even a small notice on their website inviting prospective staff to apply.

Worst of all, for their £18,000 per year, the students will only be having 6 hours per week of contact time in their academic subjects, with another 6 hours spent on a "critical thinking diploma" conjured up by the college itself.

The syllabus in English Literature (for example) is that of the University of London International Programme - which can studied for considerably less (basic fee ca. £3313) elsewhere.

It looks to me as though they are aiming at the American market for their prospective students.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:23 AM

As a CV is a way of listing your education... (amongst other things.)

If you don't use your education then it is at best a bit self indulging. In order to use said education, it starts with a CV.

Interestingly, although in later years I wrote a PhD thesis, I never "went" to university and in all my work, both in private and public sector, have always insisted on "or equivalent experience" where traditionally degree level candidates were required. When as Chairman of a public sector body, I appointed a chief executive who had a couple of O levels to his name, although could never prove it.. He was one of the most able people I have ever come across and was a breath of fresh air in a sector known for perpetuating old ideas.

University can be either coherent (Law degrees, medical degrees) or they can be about expanding your horizons, but for an argument regarding cost to be valid, it has to be in the context of career path, or put simply and I admit flippantly, its about a CV.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:36 AM

I appointed ... who had a couple of O levels to his name, ... He was one of the most able people I have ever come across

Yes, I've come across a few of those as well. That's partly why I think its a really bad idea if one gets into the frame of mind where one starting thinking "She's worked with Dawkins - she must be good" which is where amounts to buying a name to put on a CV gets you. Of course, a good reader of CVs won't fall into that trap ... will they?

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Zen
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:49 AM

£9K per annum gets you pot luck. £18K per annum gets you exposed to ides and theories espoused by some of today's most exciting theorists.

I don't really buy that. There are brilliant teachers in most universities and some quite "unfashionable" universities have the very best courses in their fields. Of course, if you want to be a politician these days, a PPE from Oxford seems to be the way in for all parties which says more about the "club" than the university.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:52 AM

Yes I have O levels as well - each must be the equivalent of 5 A* at GCSE!!

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 12:55 PM

What's the bet most of the grunt teaching will be done by "interns", i.e. free labour?

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:42 PM

I must be a bit thick, (as I noted above..) but a new university with a different approach? Me? I'd be cautiously excited.

There is a hell of a lot of talent in many universities, and just like every other area of work, success attracts success. I was a sales manager in a large multinational company many years ago. I was persuaded to join the board of a much smaller company and had problems attracting good staff, as we didn't have the name or kudos. As sales increased, our name was used more, got to write in trade magazines etc, and guess what? The talent that wouldn't touch us before were beating a path to our door all of a sudden.

So if this is a success, it will attract talent at the teaching end and improve its status even more. if it isn't, then like many commercial ventures, it will wither on the vine.

But tell you what, I'll write the obituary based on success and failure, not some perceived sense of political drive behind it...

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

Education is not properly about future employment but improvement of the mind.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 05:17 PM

Ah, someone who knows the difference between education and training! I have said for a long time that the UK has - by and large - a training system, not an education system. And other countries too, I assume.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 09:23 PM

Looks like a private institution run by fashionably fundamentalist-atheist labour-inclined BBC luvvies. Should give Harriet Harperson and the other Guardian-reading multi-millionaire lefty hypocrites somewhere to send their tie-died progeny.

£18k per year is nothing to the Toynbees and Rusbridgers of this world. Let the others eat cake... At least Dawkins will be able to continue pretending to be a scientist (well, at least of the special kind that refuses to publicly debate with qualified opponents). He and Grayling can bore each other senseless.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 11:34 PM

"Looks like a private institution run by fashionably fundamentalist-atheist labour-inclined BBC luvvies"

Oh well I'm glad to see that there is something to be said for it then.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:06 AM

Funny, but I was in the camp with the rest of the human race that funds education in order to improve society. Or to use the day to day term, have people in jobs who can tie their own shoe laces. Improvement of the mind is a wonderful legacy to bestow on your offspring, but I think tax payers deserve an educated workforce out of the deal as well.

Oh, and we must be getting people mixed up. I thought it was Richard Dawkin, the genetic scientist who has used his knowledge to further genetics and in doing so has posed fundamental theories to very fundamental questions. This Dawkin debates endlessly, even with religious leaders.... Who is this one "pretending to be a scientist?"

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:34 AM

Mather, teaching people to tie their own shoelaces etc is merely training.

But, to my shock, while I am not wholly sure that one poses theories to questions, I am inclined to agree with the main thrust of Mather's second paragraph. Nonetheless I am less clear that Dawkin's reliance on scientific methodology in debating the existence of God is rigorous, even though I tend towards similar opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:36 AM

Ok, the civil bits first.

You are right in that scientific methodology is not the best tool for debating the existence of God, as science is based on observing followed by quantifying, followed by revising followed by holding your breath till your thesis is again scrutinised. Scripture however is based on an absolute, to be refined but never refuted. So although Dawkin and others have demonstrated how genes conflict with scriptures in the same way as Darwin's discoveries did, (and refining Darwin in the process,) it must be frustrating trying to win an argument against intangible evidence.

Now back to the silly (ish) bits.

If you tie your shoe laces you can get out more and broaden your horizons.

You say you are shocked to be agreeing with me. Not quite as shocked as I am. But there again, whether you call it training or education, it seems to be working. Who knows, perhaps some day you may stop being so bitter about everything around you and stop looking for avarice and greed in every public endeavour. If you tend towards similar opinions as such atheists, you will know you only live once and so may as well start enjoying it more.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:22 AM

Bitter? Two pints please.

Tis bad enough in man or woman
To steal a grey goose from the common
But surely he's without excuse
Who steals the common from the goose.

Someone has to fight the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:40 AM

I'm with the late Douglas Adams when it comes to geese. His character Ford Prefect said that you have to protect all creatures. Except geese. Fuck 'em.

As we are in what is, by international standards, a civilised country, I find that the ballot box is far better than "fighting," unless you count debating as a form of fighting which it isn't. Debating includes conceding points. I suppose if I had a job where doing my best by my clients may not be the same as doing my best by my ethical stance, I too may find it cathartic to sound off here.

I guess that's why it is called BS....

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:54 PM

And if you'd bothered to get educated rather than trained you might know the difference between "may" and "might". I bet you call a till a "checkout" and a cleaner a "janitor".

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 04:14 PM

Wish I may, wish I might? Do a Strauss-Kahn and checkout that cleaner? Or just till her garden?

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:32 AM

Actually, I call the cleaner Claire.

Just for you, I may call a till a POS device. (Point of sale apparently.)

The difference between may and might? According to the OED, they may (or might) be interchanged depending on context. Of course, you also need to add in the fact I may (or might) be typing conversationally, which means you have to factor in dialect.

Sorry, tell you what. I may (or might) start using the style guide I am forced to put up with when writing for publication. HMSO publications and Mudcat ramblings may (or might) be different but to an uneducated (or poorly trained) armchair socialist, they are near enough.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 01:56 AM

Sorry to interrupt, chaps, but here's a perfect illustration of what I mean when I say 'a good CV' isn't the full story

The exam boards have made a number of mistakes in the questions in this years exams so here's their solution "AQA, Britain's biggest exam board, said yesterday that it would award full marks for the question to everyone who sat the paper."

Yes, that's great for the student's getting a good CV. Now explain why it is good for anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: new £18k a year private UK college
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 04:01 AM

Presumably exams are similar to when I was a lad, (or were a lad, depending on which jars most for Bridge,) and they still have more than one question....

For a student fresh from college, the exams form a large part of the CV credentials, but they melt in to experience, expertise and demonstrable achievements over time.

There again, rather bemused to sit here debating whether a cocked up question in an exam makes the whole CV idea invalid.. A CV is a system that allows you to show you have a vivid imagination. Oh, and that can be a good thing...

Education for education sake is a wonderful thing, but unless you intend to sit like a baby bird in a nest with your mouth open to be fed by the welfare system for the rest of your life, if you are capable of benefiting from an education, you should use it to get on and put something back to the society that trained you.